Knicks · ESPN says Melo ranked #15... (page 15)
tkf wrote:smackeddog wrote:fishmike wrote:smackeddog wrote:if they counted for double you would be onto to something. Why are the homers in total denial? Holfresh mentioned KG, a notorious one and done playoff guy. Compare his stats vs playoffs. He's just as good. Now compare Melo's. Melo goes from a reasonable 45% shooting (for a volume scorer) to Jamal Crawford in the playoffs. Does he suck? No. Does he choke? No. Does he get exposed? Every year.holfresh wrote:tkf wrote:holfresh wrote:By the way...I'll take 29 pts 8 Rebs on 43% shooting From Melo any day of the week as he did in the Series...so would you take his 27/11/ and only one assist on 35% shooting in game 1 which we lost.. 28 shots ? wow
how about his 21/5/ and yet again ONE assist stinker shooting 37% in another loss.. game 3.. knicks scored 71 points.. I thought having a superstar and scoring champion was supposed to avoid the knicks from having games like this?
or how about the pivotal game 4. knicks in danger falling down 3-1.. carmelo shows up with 24/9/ and yes, yet again ONE assist.. rofl... and oh. he shot 39%so you can post that 43% because he had one or two games that help bring that horrible average up, but in the games his team needed him to be a star.. he wasn't.. he isn't.. plain and simple..
so I ask you.. is this what you really want?
Tell the whole story why don't u:
Game 2: 32pts 9reb 3 ast on 50% shooting
Game 5: 28pts 6 reb 0 asst on 43% shooting
Game 6: 39 pts 7 reb 2 asst on 53% shooting...
Anyone can post the worst games of any player from any series..By the way, that's how averages work..U add all the numbers, just not the bad...Don't you get it? Only melo's bad games count- you have to ignore/ refuse to acknowledge any good games or achievements.
Playing the Knicks:
Pack the middle and bottle up the middle. Commit your bigs to protecting the basket, especially when Melo has the ball and you will win EVERY playoff series against the Knicks. Why? Because if you take away the paint from Melo he will take his shots elsewhere. And yes.. there will be games he lights it up because he's damn good. And those will be followed by games he shoot 10-30. 10 years of evidence and the excuses continue.Its laughable.
I dont even hate the guy. He's a great player. I 100% agree with ESPN. Top 15 for sure, and probably top 10, but the holes in his game ad his refusal to change his approach will ensure the same thing happens every year.
So please... MElo apologists, holfresh, etc.. please tell me which parts Im wrong about
And I'm fine with criticism of him- I prefer defensive players! It's just when people refuse to acknowledge ANY positives about him and make out he's one of, if not THE worst players in the league. That's just daft.
Nah, no one is saying that.. the problem with you melo defenders is that he is either a superstar, top 5 or he's hated on..can you just accept that he is a decent all around player, good streak, volume shooter/ scorer, and most likely nothing more than that? does that make him bad.. NO. there is a place for guys like him in the Nba, but it doesn't make him great, doesn't make him a star and doesn't make him worthy to hand the keys to the franchise over to....
that is where I stand..
Even people that dislike him consider him better than decent and better than just a streaky scorer. He scores 25 plus every game and every season. I have never seen just a streaky scorer that can do that. He is a GREAT scorer, one of the best in the league who lacks in other departments. Whether the great aspects far override the weak areas are up to interpretation and if he is an nba star.
Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:smackeddog wrote:fishmike wrote:smackeddog wrote:if they counted for double you would be onto to something. Why are the homers in total denial? Holfresh mentioned KG, a notorious one and done playoff guy. Compare his stats vs playoffs. He's just as good. Now compare Melo's. Melo goes from a reasonable 45% shooting (for a volume scorer) to Jamal Crawford in the playoffs. Does he suck? No. Does he choke? No. Does he get exposed? Every year.holfresh wrote:tkf wrote:holfresh wrote:By the way...I'll take 29 pts 8 Rebs on 43% shooting From Melo any day of the week as he did in the Series...so would you take his 27/11/ and only one assist on 35% shooting in game 1 which we lost.. 28 shots ? wow
how about his 21/5/ and yet again ONE assist stinker shooting 37% in another loss.. game 3.. knicks scored 71 points.. I thought having a superstar and scoring champion was supposed to avoid the knicks from having games like this?
or how about the pivotal game 4. knicks in danger falling down 3-1.. carmelo shows up with 24/9/ and yes, yet again ONE assist.. rofl... and oh. he shot 39%so you can post that 43% because he had one or two games that help bring that horrible average up, but in the games his team needed him to be a star.. he wasn't.. he isn't.. plain and simple..
so I ask you.. is this what you really want?
Tell the whole story why don't u:
Game 2: 32pts 9reb 3 ast on 50% shooting
Game 5: 28pts 6 reb 0 asst on 43% shooting
Game 6: 39 pts 7 reb 2 asst on 53% shooting...
Anyone can post the worst games of any player from any series..By the way, that's how averages work..U add all the numbers, just not the bad...Don't you get it? Only melo's bad games count- you have to ignore/ refuse to acknowledge any good games or achievements.
Playing the Knicks:
Pack the middle and bottle up the middle. Commit your bigs to protecting the basket, especially when Melo has the ball and you will win EVERY playoff series against the Knicks. Why? Because if you take away the paint from Melo he will take his shots elsewhere. And yes.. there will be games he lights it up because he's damn good. And those will be followed by games he shoot 10-30. 10 years of evidence and the excuses continue.Its laughable.
I dont even hate the guy. He's a great player. I 100% agree with ESPN. Top 15 for sure, and probably top 10, but the holes in his game ad his refusal to change his approach will ensure the same thing happens every year.
So please... MElo apologists, holfresh, etc.. please tell me which parts Im wrong about
And I'm fine with criticism of him- I prefer defensive players! It's just when people refuse to acknowledge ANY positives about him and make out he's one of, if not THE worst players in the league. That's just daft.
Nah, no one is saying that.. the problem with you melo defenders is that he is either a superstar, top 5 or he's hated on..can you just accept that he is a decent all around player, good streak, volume shooter/ scorer, and most likely nothing more than that? does that make him bad.. NO. there is a place for guys like him in the Nba, but it doesn't make him great, doesn't make him a star and doesn't make him worthy to hand the keys to the franchise over to....
that is where I stand..
Even people that dislike him consider him better than decent and better than just a streaky scorer. He scores 25 plus every game and every season. I have never seen just a streaky scorer that can do that. He is a GREAT scorer, one of the best in the league who lacks in other departments. Whether the great aspects far override the weak areas are up to interpretation and if he is an nba star.
his scoring is inefficient. inefficient volume scorers undermine winning and also exhaust teammates. if he were a great scorer he would be doing so at a better than 58%TS clip. he has never done that and is sub-par in all other aspects of the game, which make his scoring empty calories. if you take more than 18 shots a game there is something wrong, unless you are doing other things to earn the right to do so.
dk7th wrote:and yet despite all this and the fact that hes been on good teams but never great teams he leads his team to 50ish wins every year. Somewhere your theory has holes in it. David Lee was a TS% freak. So why didnt Lee lead us to more than 30 wins?Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:smackeddog wrote:fishmike wrote:smackeddog wrote:if they counted for double you would be onto to something. Why are the homers in total denial? Holfresh mentioned KG, a notorious one and done playoff guy. Compare his stats vs playoffs. He's just as good. Now compare Melo's. Melo goes from a reasonable 45% shooting (for a volume scorer) to Jamal Crawford in the playoffs. Does he suck? No. Does he choke? No. Does he get exposed? Every year.holfresh wrote:tkf wrote:holfresh wrote:By the way...I'll take 29 pts 8 Rebs on 43% shooting From Melo any day of the week as he did in the Series...so would you take his 27/11/ and only one assist on 35% shooting in game 1 which we lost.. 28 shots ? wow
how about his 21/5/ and yet again ONE assist stinker shooting 37% in another loss.. game 3.. knicks scored 71 points.. I thought having a superstar and scoring champion was supposed to avoid the knicks from having games like this?
or how about the pivotal game 4. knicks in danger falling down 3-1.. carmelo shows up with 24/9/ and yes, yet again ONE assist.. rofl... and oh. he shot 39%so you can post that 43% because he had one or two games that help bring that horrible average up, but in the games his team needed him to be a star.. he wasn't.. he isn't.. plain and simple..
so I ask you.. is this what you really want?
Tell the whole story why don't u:
Game 2: 32pts 9reb 3 ast on 50% shooting
Game 5: 28pts 6 reb 0 asst on 43% shooting
Game 6: 39 pts 7 reb 2 asst on 53% shooting...
Anyone can post the worst games of any player from any series..By the way, that's how averages work..U add all the numbers, just not the bad...Don't you get it? Only melo's bad games count- you have to ignore/ refuse to acknowledge any good games or achievements.
Playing the Knicks:
Pack the middle and bottle up the middle. Commit your bigs to protecting the basket, especially when Melo has the ball and you will win EVERY playoff series against the Knicks. Why? Because if you take away the paint from Melo he will take his shots elsewhere. And yes.. there will be games he lights it up because he's damn good. And those will be followed by games he shoot 10-30. 10 years of evidence and the excuses continue.Its laughable.
I dont even hate the guy. He's a great player. I 100% agree with ESPN. Top 15 for sure, and probably top 10, but the holes in his game ad his refusal to change his approach will ensure the same thing happens every year.
So please... MElo apologists, holfresh, etc.. please tell me which parts Im wrong about
And I'm fine with criticism of him- I prefer defensive players! It's just when people refuse to acknowledge ANY positives about him and make out he's one of, if not THE worst players in the league. That's just daft.
Nah, no one is saying that.. the problem with you melo defenders is that he is either a superstar, top 5 or he's hated on..can you just accept that he is a decent all around player, good streak, volume shooter/ scorer, and most likely nothing more than that? does that make him bad.. NO. there is a place for guys like him in the Nba, but it doesn't make him great, doesn't make him a star and doesn't make him worthy to hand the keys to the franchise over to....
that is where I stand..
Even people that dislike him consider him better than decent and better than just a streaky scorer. He scores 25 plus every game and every season. I have never seen just a streaky scorer that can do that. He is a GREAT scorer, one of the best in the league who lacks in other departments. Whether the great aspects far override the weak areas are up to interpretation and if he is an nba star.
his scoring is inefficient. inefficient volume scorers undermine winning and also exhaust teammates. if he were a great scorer he would be doing so at a better than 58%TS clip. he has never done that and is sub-par in all other aspects of the game, which make his scoring empty calories. if you take more than 18 shots a game there is something wrong, unless you are doing other things to earn the right to do so.
He's enough of a star to build a 50ish win playoff team around every year, but the holes in his game will always keep him from being able to grind out playoff wins. He needs a #1 if we want to compete for a title. Thats where I stand
fishmike wrote:dk7th wrote:and yet despite all this and the fact that hes been on good teams but never great teams he leads his team to 50ish wins every year. Somewhere your theory has holes in it. David Lee was a TS% freak. So why didnt Lee lead us to more than 30 wins?Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:smackeddog wrote:fishmike wrote:smackeddog wrote:if they counted for double you would be onto to something. Why are the homers in total denial? Holfresh mentioned KG, a notorious one and done playoff guy. Compare his stats vs playoffs. He's just as good. Now compare Melo's. Melo goes from a reasonable 45% shooting (for a volume scorer) to Jamal Crawford in the playoffs. Does he suck? No. Does he choke? No. Does he get exposed? Every year.holfresh wrote:tkf wrote:holfresh wrote:By the way...I'll take 29 pts 8 Rebs on 43% shooting From Melo any day of the week as he did in the Series...so would you take his 27/11/ and only one assist on 35% shooting in game 1 which we lost.. 28 shots ? wow
how about his 21/5/ and yet again ONE assist stinker shooting 37% in another loss.. game 3.. knicks scored 71 points.. I thought having a superstar and scoring champion was supposed to avoid the knicks from having games like this?
or how about the pivotal game 4. knicks in danger falling down 3-1.. carmelo shows up with 24/9/ and yes, yet again ONE assist.. rofl... and oh. he shot 39%so you can post that 43% because he had one or two games that help bring that horrible average up, but in the games his team needed him to be a star.. he wasn't.. he isn't.. plain and simple..
so I ask you.. is this what you really want?
Tell the whole story why don't u:
Game 2: 32pts 9reb 3 ast on 50% shooting
Game 5: 28pts 6 reb 0 asst on 43% shooting
Game 6: 39 pts 7 reb 2 asst on 53% shooting...
Anyone can post the worst games of any player from any series..By the way, that's how averages work..U add all the numbers, just not the bad...Don't you get it? Only melo's bad games count- you have to ignore/ refuse to acknowledge any good games or achievements.
Playing the Knicks:
Pack the middle and bottle up the middle. Commit your bigs to protecting the basket, especially when Melo has the ball and you will win EVERY playoff series against the Knicks. Why? Because if you take away the paint from Melo he will take his shots elsewhere. And yes.. there will be games he lights it up because he's damn good. And those will be followed by games he shoot 10-30. 10 years of evidence and the excuses continue.Its laughable.
I dont even hate the guy. He's a great player. I 100% agree with ESPN. Top 15 for sure, and probably top 10, but the holes in his game ad his refusal to change his approach will ensure the same thing happens every year.
So please... MElo apologists, holfresh, etc.. please tell me which parts Im wrong about
And I'm fine with criticism of him- I prefer defensive players! It's just when people refuse to acknowledge ANY positives about him and make out he's one of, if not THE worst players in the league. That's just daft.
Nah, no one is saying that.. the problem with you melo defenders is that he is either a superstar, top 5 or he's hated on..can you just accept that he is a decent all around player, good streak, volume shooter/ scorer, and most likely nothing more than that? does that make him bad.. NO. there is a place for guys like him in the Nba, but it doesn't make him great, doesn't make him a star and doesn't make him worthy to hand the keys to the franchise over to....
that is where I stand..
Even people that dislike him consider him better than decent and better than just a streaky scorer. He scores 25 plus every game and every season. I have never seen just a streaky scorer that can do that. He is a GREAT scorer, one of the best in the league who lacks in other departments. Whether the great aspects far override the weak areas are up to interpretation and if he is an nba star.
his scoring is inefficient. inefficient volume scorers undermine winning and also exhaust teammates. if he were a great scorer he would be doing so at a better than 58%TS clip. he has never done that and is sub-par in all other aspects of the game, which make his scoring empty calories. if you take more than 18 shots a game there is something wrong, unless you are doing other things to earn the right to do so.
He's enough of a star to build a 50ish win playoff team around every year, but the holes in his game will always keep him from being able to grind out playoff wins. He needs a #1 if we want to compete for a title. Thats where I stand
is the level of opponent higher in the playoffs-- especially beyond the <meh> first round, or the same as the regular season? of course the question is rhetorical... and i am not directing the query to you alone. so far as lee is concerned, can we agree that the knick teams he played for were just a notch or two lower in terms of talent? and i recall his last two years here were pure, unadulterated roster flush.
dk7th wrote:it is indeed.. and Melo has shown his talent is high enough to get a team to the playoffs every year. Has Melo ever missed the playoffs since joining the NBA? Yet all his teams have also undergone many many roster flushes of their own, yet one thing remains... Melo's team win about 50 games regardless of whos on the roster, and that alone is a very clear indication of his talent and skills and how they directly translate into NBA wins. You would have us believe Melo is Al Harrington who just takes more shots, and that is just as disingenuous as the 'homers' who think Melo's a superstar and his playoff failures have nothing to do with his poor play in the post season.fishmike wrote:dk7th wrote:and yet despite all this and the fact that hes been on good teams but never great teams he leads his team to 50ish wins every year. Somewhere your theory has holes in it. David Lee was a TS% freak. So why didnt Lee lead us to more than 30 wins?Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:smackeddog wrote:fishmike wrote:smackeddog wrote:if they counted for double you would be onto to something. Why are the homers in total denial? Holfresh mentioned KG, a notorious one and done playoff guy. Compare his stats vs playoffs. He's just as good. Now compare Melo's. Melo goes from a reasonable 45% shooting (for a volume scorer) to Jamal Crawford in the playoffs. Does he suck? No. Does he choke? No. Does he get exposed? Every year.holfresh wrote:tkf wrote:holfresh wrote:By the way...I'll take 29 pts 8 Rebs on 43% shooting From Melo any day of the week as he did in the Series...so would you take his 27/11/ and only one assist on 35% shooting in game 1 which we lost.. 28 shots ? wow
how about his 21/5/ and yet again ONE assist stinker shooting 37% in another loss.. game 3.. knicks scored 71 points.. I thought having a superstar and scoring champion was supposed to avoid the knicks from having games like this?
or how about the pivotal game 4. knicks in danger falling down 3-1.. carmelo shows up with 24/9/ and yes, yet again ONE assist.. rofl... and oh. he shot 39%so you can post that 43% because he had one or two games that help bring that horrible average up, but in the games his team needed him to be a star.. he wasn't.. he isn't.. plain and simple..
so I ask you.. is this what you really want?
Tell the whole story why don't u:
Game 2: 32pts 9reb 3 ast on 50% shooting
Game 5: 28pts 6 reb 0 asst on 43% shooting
Game 6: 39 pts 7 reb 2 asst on 53% shooting...
Anyone can post the worst games of any player from any series..By the way, that's how averages work..U add all the numbers, just not the bad...Don't you get it? Only melo's bad games count- you have to ignore/ refuse to acknowledge any good games or achievements.
Playing the Knicks:
Pack the middle and bottle up the middle. Commit your bigs to protecting the basket, especially when Melo has the ball and you will win EVERY playoff series against the Knicks. Why? Because if you take away the paint from Melo he will take his shots elsewhere. And yes.. there will be games he lights it up because he's damn good. And those will be followed by games he shoot 10-30. 10 years of evidence and the excuses continue.Its laughable.
I dont even hate the guy. He's a great player. I 100% agree with ESPN. Top 15 for sure, and probably top 10, but the holes in his game ad his refusal to change his approach will ensure the same thing happens every year.
So please... MElo apologists, holfresh, etc.. please tell me which parts Im wrong about
And I'm fine with criticism of him- I prefer defensive players! It's just when people refuse to acknowledge ANY positives about him and make out he's one of, if not THE worst players in the league. That's just daft.
Nah, no one is saying that.. the problem with you melo defenders is that he is either a superstar, top 5 or he's hated on..can you just accept that he is a decent all around player, good streak, volume shooter/ scorer, and most likely nothing more than that? does that make him bad.. NO. there is a place for guys like him in the Nba, but it doesn't make him great, doesn't make him a star and doesn't make him worthy to hand the keys to the franchise over to....
that is where I stand..
Even people that dislike him consider him better than decent and better than just a streaky scorer. He scores 25 plus every game and every season. I have never seen just a streaky scorer that can do that. He is a GREAT scorer, one of the best in the league who lacks in other departments. Whether the great aspects far override the weak areas are up to interpretation and if he is an nba star.
his scoring is inefficient. inefficient volume scorers undermine winning and also exhaust teammates. if he were a great scorer he would be doing so at a better than 58%TS clip. he has never done that and is sub-par in all other aspects of the game, which make his scoring empty calories. if you take more than 18 shots a game there is something wrong, unless you are doing other things to earn the right to do so.
He's enough of a star to build a 50ish win playoff team around every year, but the holes in his game will always keep him from being able to grind out playoff wins. He needs a #1 if we want to compete for a title. Thats where I stand
is the level of opponent higher in the playoffs-- especially beyond the <meh> first round, or the same as the regular season? of course the question is rhetorical... and i am not directing the query to you alone. so far as lee is concerned, can we agree that the knick teams he played for were just a notch or two lower in terms of talent? and i recall his last two years here were pure, unadulterated roster flush.
fishmike wrote:dk7th wrote:it is indeed.. and Melo has shown his talent is high enough to get a team to the playoffs every year. Has Melo ever missed the playoffs since joining the NBA? Yet all his teams have also undergone many many roster flushes of their own, yet one thing remains... Melo's team win about 50 games regardless of whos on the roster, and that alone is a very clear indication of his talent and skills and how they directly translate into NBA wins. You would have us believe Melo is Al Harrington who just takes more shots, and that is just as disingenuous as the 'homers' who think Melo's a superstar and his playoff failures have nothing to do with his poor play in the post season.fishmike wrote:dk7th wrote:and yet despite all this and the fact that hes been on good teams but never great teams he leads his team to 50ish wins every year. Somewhere your theory has holes in it. David Lee was a TS% freak. So why didnt Lee lead us to more than 30 wins?Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:smackeddog wrote:fishmike wrote:smackeddog wrote:if they counted for double you would be onto to something. Why are the homers in total denial? Holfresh mentioned KG, a notorious one and done playoff guy. Compare his stats vs playoffs. He's just as good. Now compare Melo's. Melo goes from a reasonable 45% shooting (for a volume scorer) to Jamal Crawford in the playoffs. Does he suck? No. Does he choke? No. Does he get exposed? Every year.holfresh wrote:tkf wrote:holfresh wrote:By the way...I'll take 29 pts 8 Rebs on 43% shooting From Melo any day of the week as he did in the Series...so would you take his 27/11/ and only one assist on 35% shooting in game 1 which we lost.. 28 shots ? wow
how about his 21/5/ and yet again ONE assist stinker shooting 37% in another loss.. game 3.. knicks scored 71 points.. I thought having a superstar and scoring champion was supposed to avoid the knicks from having games like this?
or how about the pivotal game 4. knicks in danger falling down 3-1.. carmelo shows up with 24/9/ and yes, yet again ONE assist.. rofl... and oh. he shot 39%so you can post that 43% because he had one or two games that help bring that horrible average up, but in the games his team needed him to be a star.. he wasn't.. he isn't.. plain and simple..
so I ask you.. is this what you really want?
Tell the whole story why don't u:
Game 2: 32pts 9reb 3 ast on 50% shooting
Game 5: 28pts 6 reb 0 asst on 43% shooting
Game 6: 39 pts 7 reb 2 asst on 53% shooting...
Anyone can post the worst games of any player from any series..By the way, that's how averages work..U add all the numbers, just not the bad...Don't you get it? Only melo's bad games count- you have to ignore/ refuse to acknowledge any good games or achievements.
Playing the Knicks:
Pack the middle and bottle up the middle. Commit your bigs to protecting the basket, especially when Melo has the ball and you will win EVERY playoff series against the Knicks. Why? Because if you take away the paint from Melo he will take his shots elsewhere. And yes.. there will be games he lights it up because he's damn good. And those will be followed by games he shoot 10-30. 10 years of evidence and the excuses continue.Its laughable.
I dont even hate the guy. He's a great player. I 100% agree with ESPN. Top 15 for sure, and probably top 10, but the holes in his game ad his refusal to change his approach will ensure the same thing happens every year.
So please... MElo apologists, holfresh, etc.. please tell me which parts Im wrong about
And I'm fine with criticism of him- I prefer defensive players! It's just when people refuse to acknowledge ANY positives about him and make out he's one of, if not THE worst players in the league. That's just daft.
Nah, no one is saying that.. the problem with you melo defenders is that he is either a superstar, top 5 or he's hated on..can you just accept that he is a decent all around player, good streak, volume shooter/ scorer, and most likely nothing more than that? does that make him bad.. NO. there is a place for guys like him in the Nba, but it doesn't make him great, doesn't make him a star and doesn't make him worthy to hand the keys to the franchise over to....
that is where I stand..
Even people that dislike him consider him better than decent and better than just a streaky scorer. He scores 25 plus every game and every season. I have never seen just a streaky scorer that can do that. He is a GREAT scorer, one of the best in the league who lacks in other departments. Whether the great aspects far override the weak areas are up to interpretation and if he is an nba star.
his scoring is inefficient. inefficient volume scorers undermine winning and also exhaust teammates. if he were a great scorer he would be doing so at a better than 58%TS clip. he has never done that and is sub-par in all other aspects of the game, which make his scoring empty calories. if you take more than 18 shots a game there is something wrong, unless you are doing other things to earn the right to do so.
He's enough of a star to build a 50ish win playoff team around every year, but the holes in his game will always keep him from being able to grind out playoff wins. He needs a #1 if we want to compete for a title. Thats where I stand
is the level of opponent higher in the playoffs-- especially beyond the <meh> first round, or the same as the regular season? of course the question is rhetorical... and i am not directing the query to you alone. so far as lee is concerned, can we agree that the knick teams he played for were just a notch or two lower in terms of talent? and i recall his last two years here were pure, unadulterated roster flush.
as i said, the first round is <meh> so his having gotten to the first round is also <meh>. had he been able to get to the second round regularly, that would actually mean something. i know... my detractors feel i have been moving the goalposts... but i have maintained this standard all along. the playoffs reward mediocrity, which is what happens when half the league gets in. a bloated league with too many teams and a diluted talent pool. the smart players will try to get better... melo hasn't. the snart players will try to find situations that will best suit that players actual sense of his value to a team... melo hasn't.
dk7th wrote:being good enough to get in every year means something. It meant something that Melo got the Nugs there ever year. It meant something that KG got the Wolves there every year, and not being good enough to beat one of the top 4 teams in your conference isnt <meh> it means the team isnt good enough.fishmike wrote:dk7th wrote:it is indeed.. and Melo has shown his talent is high enough to get a team to the playoffs every year. Has Melo ever missed the playoffs since joining the NBA? Yet all his teams have also undergone many many roster flushes of their own, yet one thing remains... Melo's team win about 50 games regardless of whos on the roster, and that alone is a very clear indication of his talent and skills and how they directly translate into NBA wins. You would have us believe Melo is Al Harrington who just takes more shots, and that is just as disingenuous as the 'homers' who think Melo's a superstar and his playoff failures have nothing to do with his poor play in the post season.fishmike wrote:dk7th wrote:and yet despite all this and the fact that hes been on good teams but never great teams he leads his team to 50ish wins every year. Somewhere your theory has holes in it. David Lee was a TS% freak. So why didnt Lee lead us to more than 30 wins?Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:smackeddog wrote:fishmike wrote:smackeddog wrote:if they counted for double you would be onto to something. Why are the homers in total denial? Holfresh mentioned KG, a notorious one and done playoff guy. Compare his stats vs playoffs. He's just as good. Now compare Melo's. Melo goes from a reasonable 45% shooting (for a volume scorer) to Jamal Crawford in the playoffs. Does he suck? No. Does he choke? No. Does he get exposed? Every year.holfresh wrote:tkf wrote:holfresh wrote:By the way...I'll take 29 pts 8 Rebs on 43% shooting From Melo any day of the week as he did in the Series...so would you take his 27/11/ and only one assist on 35% shooting in game 1 which we lost.. 28 shots ? wow
how about his 21/5/ and yet again ONE assist stinker shooting 37% in another loss.. game 3.. knicks scored 71 points.. I thought having a superstar and scoring champion was supposed to avoid the knicks from having games like this?
or how about the pivotal game 4. knicks in danger falling down 3-1.. carmelo shows up with 24/9/ and yes, yet again ONE assist.. rofl... and oh. he shot 39%so you can post that 43% because he had one or two games that help bring that horrible average up, but in the games his team needed him to be a star.. he wasn't.. he isn't.. plain and simple..
so I ask you.. is this what you really want?
Tell the whole story why don't u:
Game 2: 32pts 9reb 3 ast on 50% shooting
Game 5: 28pts 6 reb 0 asst on 43% shooting
Game 6: 39 pts 7 reb 2 asst on 53% shooting...
Anyone can post the worst games of any player from any series..By the way, that's how averages work..U add all the numbers, just not the bad...Don't you get it? Only melo's bad games count- you have to ignore/ refuse to acknowledge any good games or achievements.
Playing the Knicks:
Pack the middle and bottle up the middle. Commit your bigs to protecting the basket, especially when Melo has the ball and you will win EVERY playoff series against the Knicks. Why? Because if you take away the paint from Melo he will take his shots elsewhere. And yes.. there will be games he lights it up because he's damn good. And those will be followed by games he shoot 10-30. 10 years of evidence and the excuses continue.Its laughable.
I dont even hate the guy. He's a great player. I 100% agree with ESPN. Top 15 for sure, and probably top 10, but the holes in his game ad his refusal to change his approach will ensure the same thing happens every year.
So please... MElo apologists, holfresh, etc.. please tell me which parts Im wrong about
And I'm fine with criticism of him- I prefer defensive players! It's just when people refuse to acknowledge ANY positives about him and make out he's one of, if not THE worst players in the league. That's just daft.
Nah, no one is saying that.. the problem with you melo defenders is that he is either a superstar, top 5 or he's hated on..can you just accept that he is a decent all around player, good streak, volume shooter/ scorer, and most likely nothing more than that? does that make him bad.. NO. there is a place for guys like him in the Nba, but it doesn't make him great, doesn't make him a star and doesn't make him worthy to hand the keys to the franchise over to....
that is where I stand..
Even people that dislike him consider him better than decent and better than just a streaky scorer. He scores 25 plus every game and every season. I have never seen just a streaky scorer that can do that. He is a GREAT scorer, one of the best in the league who lacks in other departments. Whether the great aspects far override the weak areas are up to interpretation and if he is an nba star.
his scoring is inefficient. inefficient volume scorers undermine winning and also exhaust teammates. if he were a great scorer he would be doing so at a better than 58%TS clip. he has never done that and is sub-par in all other aspects of the game, which make his scoring empty calories. if you take more than 18 shots a game there is something wrong, unless you are doing other things to earn the right to do so.
He's enough of a star to build a 50ish win playoff team around every year, but the holes in his game will always keep him from being able to grind out playoff wins. He needs a #1 if we want to compete for a title. Thats where I stand
is the level of opponent higher in the playoffs-- especially beyond the <meh> first round, or the same as the regular season? of course the question is rhetorical... and i am not directing the query to you alone. so far as lee is concerned, can we agree that the knick teams he played for were just a notch or two lower in terms of talent? and i recall his last two years here were pure, unadulterated roster flush.
as i said, the first round is <meh> so his having gotten to the first round is also <meh>. had he been able to get to the second round regularly, that would actually mean something. i know... my detractors feel i have been moving the goalposts... but i have maintained this standard all along. the playoffs reward mediocrity, which is what happens when half the league gets in. a bloated league with too many teams and a diluted talent pool. the smart players will try to get better... melo hasn't. the snart players will try to find situations that will best suit that players actual sense of his value to a team... melo hasn't.
I agree... Melo isnt the smartest. His approach works in the regular season and doest stand up against the NBA's elite teams. Doesnt take away from the fact that the guy is talented to get a team thats otherwise pretty average there year after year, and that IS a noteworthy achievement and a fair measure of one's impact on his team. Melo is a high impact player. Pretend he's not and your credibility ends there.
He needs another stud to compete for a title and take the next step. Can and will MSG find that guy? That being said 3 years later Will Chandler, Gallo, Mos, etc etc dont sniff the impact that Melo has on a game. Plain and simple.
gunsnewing wrote:I agree with you Fish and that's why Dolan will max him out cos he ensures that playoff tickets are sold year in year out. Not necessarily playoff successhad to fault Dolan for that. He's a business guy. Not a sports guy. Knicks need epic moves from the front office and some luck.
Effing ego problem much?
Yes, defend DLee with roster churn, who's game is a stat padding, meaningless exercise in double doubles. He just runs away from the paint on D.
But Melo is "empty calories". Please, tell me how DLee makes All-Star teams.
Melo being compared to DLee. It's come to this.
tkf wrote:
Nah, no one is saying that.. the problem with you melo defenders is that he is either a superstar, top 5 or he's hated on..can you just accept that he is a decent all around player, good streak, volume shooter/ scorer, and most likely nothing more than that? does that make him bad.. NO. there is a place for guys like him in the Nba, but it doesn't make him great, doesn't make him a star and doesn't make him worthy to hand the keys to the franchise over to....
that is where I stand..
As foosballnick pointed out, that's not exactly how your posts have read these past few years! I actually agree with the gist of your post here- I think Melo is a better scorer than you give him credit for, but I have my reservations whether he is a championship level player until he actually beasts in the playoffs for us (though, to be fair his Knick teammates have been riddled with injuries in the playoff the past 3 times). I'd rather he played like he did at the start of last year than he did after that.
I think what gets lost in the ongoing melo debate, is that some of you talk as though we had a choice between Melo, Lebron, CP3 and Durant, and chose Melo. People are in for a rude awakening in 2015- it is so hard to sign elite players as free agents nowadays. When even Favors is getting locked up the year before he's a FA, it really makes me wonder who will actually be available, and then who will actually want to sign with us.
gunsnewing wrote:That's why I've always been in favor of drafting and developing our own players and not overpaying for castoffs. But the Knicks organization is inept
Even going down the drafting road is very risky and likely to fail.
Vmart wrote:If Melo shoots 50% he will be top three.
If he shoots 75%, he'll be top 1!
dk7th wrote:Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:smackeddog wrote:fishmike wrote:smackeddog wrote:if they counted for double you would be onto to something. Why are the homers in total denial? Holfresh mentioned KG, a notorious one and done playoff guy. Compare his stats vs playoffs. He's just as good. Now compare Melo's. Melo goes from a reasonable 45% shooting (for a volume scorer) to Jamal Crawford in the playoffs. Does he suck? No. Does he choke? No. Does he get exposed? Every year.holfresh wrote:tkf wrote:holfresh wrote:By the way...I'll take 29 pts 8 Rebs on 43% shooting From Melo any day of the week as he did in the Series...so would you take his 27/11/ and only one assist on 35% shooting in game 1 which we lost.. 28 shots ? wow
how about his 21/5/ and yet again ONE assist stinker shooting 37% in another loss.. game 3.. knicks scored 71 points.. I thought having a superstar and scoring champion was supposed to avoid the knicks from having games like this?
or how about the pivotal game 4. knicks in danger falling down 3-1.. carmelo shows up with 24/9/ and yes, yet again ONE assist.. rofl... and oh. he shot 39%so you can post that 43% because he had one or two games that help bring that horrible average up, but in the games his team needed him to be a star.. he wasn't.. he isn't.. plain and simple..
so I ask you.. is this what you really want?
Tell the whole story why don't u:
Game 2: 32pts 9reb 3 ast on 50% shooting
Game 5: 28pts 6 reb 0 asst on 43% shooting
Game 6: 39 pts 7 reb 2 asst on 53% shooting...
Anyone can post the worst games of any player from any series..By the way, that's how averages work..U add all the numbers, just not the bad...Don't you get it? Only melo's bad games count- you have to ignore/ refuse to acknowledge any good games or achievements.
Playing the Knicks:
Pack the middle and bottle up the middle. Commit your bigs to protecting the basket, especially when Melo has the ball and you will win EVERY playoff series against the Knicks. Why? Because if you take away the paint from Melo he will take his shots elsewhere. And yes.. there will be games he lights it up because he's damn good. And those will be followed by games he shoot 10-30. 10 years of evidence and the excuses continue.Its laughable.
I dont even hate the guy. He's a great player. I 100% agree with ESPN. Top 15 for sure, and probably top 10, but the holes in his game ad his refusal to change his approach will ensure the same thing happens every year.
So please... MElo apologists, holfresh, etc.. please tell me which parts Im wrong about
And I'm fine with criticism of him- I prefer defensive players! It's just when people refuse to acknowledge ANY positives about him and make out he's one of, if not THE worst players in the league. That's just daft.
Nah, no one is saying that.. the problem with you melo defenders is that he is either a superstar, top 5 or he's hated on..can you just accept that he is a decent all around player, good streak, volume shooter/ scorer, and most likely nothing more than that? does that make him bad.. NO. there is a place for guys like him in the Nba, but it doesn't make him great, doesn't make him a star and doesn't make him worthy to hand the keys to the franchise over to....
that is where I stand..
Even people that dislike him consider him better than decent and better than just a streaky scorer. He scores 25 plus every game and every season. I have never seen just a streaky scorer that can do that. He is a GREAT scorer, one of the best in the league who lacks in other departments. Whether the great aspects far override the weak areas are up to interpretation and if he is an nba star.
his scoring is inefficient. inefficient volume scorers undermine winning and also exhaust teammates. if he were a great scorer he would be doing so at a better than 58%TS clip. he has never done that and is sub-par in all other aspects of the game, which make his scoring empty calories. if you take more than 18 shots a game there is something wrong, unless you are doing other things to earn the right to do so.
EXACTLY,and to put things in perspective, no one ever refers to lebron james as the best scorer in the league.. yet he came in the league the same time carmelo has and has scored 4000+ more than carmelo, over that period of time.. I think the " he is the best scorer" is so overused with him.
kevin durant clearly won the scoring title 3 years in a row, gave carmelo a gift last year, and people are riding that scoring title into the sunset..
Durant is the best scorer in the league. Hands down, and you can add wade and lebron to that list to be honest... carmelo is one of the better scorers in the league, but you have to account for efficiency somewhere.... which is the problem I have with him...
out of the top 10 scorers in the league carmelo has taken the most shots per game, with kobe second..
carmelo 22 shots per game.. Kobe 20
lebron and wade are not even at 18 shots per, kevin durant 17 shots per.. but how is it that lebron just finished 2 points behind yet taking 4 shots , and durant pretty much finished tied with carmelo?
yep... FG%. they shoot over 50% as opposed to 44%.. they can take less shots and get as many points.. leaving other opportunities for their teamates to get involved...
fishmike wrote:dk7th wrote:it is indeed.. and Melo has shown his talent is high enough to get a team to the playoffs every year. Has Melo ever missed the playoffs since joining the NBA? Yet all his teams have also undergone many many roster flushes of their own, yet one thing remains... Melo's team win about 50 games regardless of whos on the roster, and that alone is a very clear indication of his talent and skills and how they directly translate into NBA wins. You would have us believe Melo is Al Harrington who just takes more shots, and that is just as disingenuous as the 'homers' who think Melo's a superstar and his playoff failures have nothing to do with his poor play in the post season.fishmike wrote:dk7th wrote:and yet despite all this and the fact that hes been on good teams but never great teams he leads his team to 50ish wins every year. Somewhere your theory has holes in it. David Lee was a TS% freak. So why didnt Lee lead us to more than 30 wins?Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:smackeddog wrote:fishmike wrote:smackeddog wrote:if they counted for double you would be onto to something. Why are the homers in total denial? Holfresh mentioned KG, a notorious one and done playoff guy. Compare his stats vs playoffs. He's just as good. Now compare Melo's. Melo goes from a reasonable 45% shooting (for a volume scorer) to Jamal Crawford in the playoffs. Does he suck? No. Does he choke? No. Does he get exposed? Every year.holfresh wrote:tkf wrote:holfresh wrote:By the way...I'll take 29 pts 8 Rebs on 43% shooting From Melo any day of the week as he did in the Series...so would you take his 27/11/ and only one assist on 35% shooting in game 1 which we lost.. 28 shots ? wow
how about his 21/5/ and yet again ONE assist stinker shooting 37% in another loss.. game 3.. knicks scored 71 points.. I thought having a superstar and scoring champion was supposed to avoid the knicks from having games like this?
or how about the pivotal game 4. knicks in danger falling down 3-1.. carmelo shows up with 24/9/ and yes, yet again ONE assist.. rofl... and oh. he shot 39%so you can post that 43% because he had one or two games that help bring that horrible average up, but in the games his team needed him to be a star.. he wasn't.. he isn't.. plain and simple..
so I ask you.. is this what you really want?
Tell the whole story why don't u:
Game 2: 32pts 9reb 3 ast on 50% shooting
Game 5: 28pts 6 reb 0 asst on 43% shooting
Game 6: 39 pts 7 reb 2 asst on 53% shooting...
Anyone can post the worst games of any player from any series..By the way, that's how averages work..U add all the numbers, just not the bad...Don't you get it? Only melo's bad games count- you have to ignore/ refuse to acknowledge any good games or achievements.
Playing the Knicks:
Pack the middle and bottle up the middle. Commit your bigs to protecting the basket, especially when Melo has the ball and you will win EVERY playoff series against the Knicks. Why? Because if you take away the paint from Melo he will take his shots elsewhere. And yes.. there will be games he lights it up because he's damn good. And those will be followed by games he shoot 10-30. 10 years of evidence and the excuses continue.Its laughable.
I dont even hate the guy. He's a great player. I 100% agree with ESPN. Top 15 for sure, and probably top 10, but the holes in his game ad his refusal to change his approach will ensure the same thing happens every year.
So please... MElo apologists, holfresh, etc.. please tell me which parts Im wrong about
And I'm fine with criticism of him- I prefer defensive players! It's just when people refuse to acknowledge ANY positives about him and make out he's one of, if not THE worst players in the league. That's just daft.
Nah, no one is saying that.. the problem with you melo defenders is that he is either a superstar, top 5 or he's hated on..can you just accept that he is a decent all around player, good streak, volume shooter/ scorer, and most likely nothing more than that? does that make him bad.. NO. there is a place for guys like him in the Nba, but it doesn't make him great, doesn't make him a star and doesn't make him worthy to hand the keys to the franchise over to....
that is where I stand..
Even people that dislike him consider him better than decent and better than just a streaky scorer. He scores 25 plus every game and every season. I have never seen just a streaky scorer that can do that. He is a GREAT scorer, one of the best in the league who lacks in other departments. Whether the great aspects far override the weak areas are up to interpretation and if he is an nba star.
his scoring is inefficient. inefficient volume scorers undermine winning and also exhaust teammates. if he were a great scorer he would be doing so at a better than 58%TS clip. he has never done that and is sub-par in all other aspects of the game, which make his scoring empty calories. if you take more than 18 shots a game there is something wrong, unless you are doing other things to earn the right to do so.
He's enough of a star to build a 50ish win playoff team around every year, but the holes in his game will always keep him from being able to grind out playoff wins. He needs a #1 if we want to compete for a title. Thats where I stand
is the level of opponent higher in the playoffs-- especially beyond the <meh> first round, or the same as the regular season? of course the question is rhetorical... and i am not directing the query to you alone. so far as lee is concerned, can we agree that the knick teams he played for were just a notch or two lower in terms of talent? and i recall his last two years here were pure, unadulterated roster flush.
fish, I think a while ago someone pointed out the success of the nuggets just didn't coincide with carmelo, but with the arrival of Karl as well.. think about this.. I keep hearing "he leads his teams to 50 wins".. nah lets be clear, he has been on good teams.... Denver won 57 games last year.. more than at any time carmelo has been with that franchise... it was a franchise record. No one is saying he is bad, but this " he leads his team to 50 wins" just isn't accurate, the nuggets have had talent.. and not missing the playoffs may have a lot to do with Karl just as much..
just think, that nuggets team last year, had injuries to chandler, gallo, lawson, and yet they put together 57 wins.. that says a lot about the coaching.. denver has not missed a beat since carmelo has been gone..
fishmike wrote:dk7th wrote:being good enough to get in every year means something. It meant something that Melo got the Nugs there ever year. It meant something that KG got the Wolves there every year, and not being good enough to beat one of the top 4 teams in your conference isnt <meh> it means the team isnt good enough.fishmike wrote:dk7th wrote:it is indeed.. and Melo has shown his talent is high enough to get a team to the playoffs every year. Has Melo ever missed the playoffs since joining the NBA? Yet all his teams have also undergone many many roster flushes of their own, yet one thing remains... Melo's team win about 50 games regardless of whos on the roster, and that alone is a very clear indication of his talent and skills and how they directly translate into NBA wins. You would have us believe Melo is Al Harrington who just takes more shots, and that is just as disingenuous as the 'homers' who think Melo's a superstar and his playoff failures have nothing to do with his poor play in the post season.fishmike wrote:dk7th wrote:and yet despite all this and the fact that hes been on good teams but never great teams he leads his team to 50ish wins every year. Somewhere your theory has holes in it. David Lee was a TS% freak. So why didnt Lee lead us to more than 30 wins?Knixkik wrote:tkf wrote:smackeddog wrote:fishmike wrote:smackeddog wrote:if they counted for double you would be onto to something. Why are the homers in total denial? Holfresh mentioned KG, a notorious one and done playoff guy. Compare his stats vs playoffs. He's just as good. Now compare Melo's. Melo goes from a reasonable 45% shooting (for a volume scorer) to Jamal Crawford in the playoffs. Does he suck? No. Does he choke? No. Does he get exposed? Every year.holfresh wrote:tkf wrote:holfresh wrote:By the way...I'll take 29 pts 8 Rebs on 43% shooting From Melo any day of the week as he did in the Series...so would you take his 27/11/ and only one assist on 35% shooting in game 1 which we lost.. 28 shots ? wow
how about his 21/5/ and yet again ONE assist stinker shooting 37% in another loss.. game 3.. knicks scored 71 points.. I thought having a superstar and scoring champion was supposed to avoid the knicks from having games like this?
or how about the pivotal game 4. knicks in danger falling down 3-1.. carmelo shows up with 24/9/ and yes, yet again ONE assist.. rofl... and oh. he shot 39%so you can post that 43% because he had one or two games that help bring that horrible average up, but in the games his team needed him to be a star.. he wasn't.. he isn't.. plain and simple..
so I ask you.. is this what you really want?
Tell the whole story why don't u:
Game 2: 32pts 9reb 3 ast on 50% shooting
Game 5: 28pts 6 reb 0 asst on 43% shooting
Game 6: 39 pts 7 reb 2 asst on 53% shooting...
Anyone can post the worst games of any player from any series..By the way, that's how averages work..U add all the numbers, just not the bad...Don't you get it? Only melo's bad games count- you have to ignore/ refuse to acknowledge any good games or achievements.
Playing the Knicks:
Pack the middle and bottle up the middle. Commit your bigs to protecting the basket, especially when Melo has the ball and you will win EVERY playoff series against the Knicks. Why? Because if you take away the paint from Melo he will take his shots elsewhere. And yes.. there will be games he lights it up because he's damn good. And those will be followed by games he shoot 10-30. 10 years of evidence and the excuses continue.Its laughable.
I dont even hate the guy. He's a great player. I 100% agree with ESPN. Top 15 for sure, and probably top 10, but the holes in his game ad his refusal to change his approach will ensure the same thing happens every year.
So please... MElo apologists, holfresh, etc.. please tell me which parts Im wrong about
And I'm fine with criticism of him- I prefer defensive players! It's just when people refuse to acknowledge ANY positives about him and make out he's one of, if not THE worst players in the league. That's just daft.
Nah, no one is saying that.. the problem with you melo defenders is that he is either a superstar, top 5 or he's hated on..can you just accept that he is a decent all around player, good streak, volume shooter/ scorer, and most likely nothing more than that? does that make him bad.. NO. there is a place for guys like him in the Nba, but it doesn't make him great, doesn't make him a star and doesn't make him worthy to hand the keys to the franchise over to....
that is where I stand..
Even people that dislike him consider him better than decent and better than just a streaky scorer. He scores 25 plus every game and every season. I have never seen just a streaky scorer that can do that. He is a GREAT scorer, one of the best in the league who lacks in other departments. Whether the great aspects far override the weak areas are up to interpretation and if he is an nba star.
his scoring is inefficient. inefficient volume scorers undermine winning and also exhaust teammates. if he were a great scorer he would be doing so at a better than 58%TS clip. he has never done that and is sub-par in all other aspects of the game, which make his scoring empty calories. if you take more than 18 shots a game there is something wrong, unless you are doing other things to earn the right to do so.
He's enough of a star to build a 50ish win playoff team around every year, but the holes in his game will always keep him from being able to grind out playoff wins. He needs a #1 if we want to compete for a title. Thats where I stand
is the level of opponent higher in the playoffs-- especially beyond the <meh> first round, or the same as the regular season? of course the question is rhetorical... and i am not directing the query to you alone. so far as lee is concerned, can we agree that the knick teams he played for were just a notch or two lower in terms of talent? and i recall his last two years here were pure, unadulterated roster flush.
as i said, the first round is <meh> so his having gotten to the first round is also <meh>. had he been able to get to the second round regularly, that would actually mean something. i know... my detractors feel i have been moving the goalposts... but i have maintained this standard all along. the playoffs reward mediocrity, which is what happens when half the league gets in. a bloated league with too many teams and a diluted talent pool. the smart players will try to get better... melo hasn't. the snart players will try to find situations that will best suit that players actual sense of his value to a team... melo hasn't.
I agree... Melo isnt the smartest. His approach works in the regular season and doest stand up against the NBA's elite teams. Doesnt take away from the fact that the guy is talented to get a team thats otherwise pretty average there year after year, and that IS a noteworthy achievement and a fair measure of one's impact on his team. Melo is a high impact player. Pretend he's not and your credibility ends there.
He needs another stud to compete for a title and take the next step. Can and will MSG find that guy? That being said 3 years later Will Chandler, Gallo, Mos, etc etc dont sniff the impact that Melo has on a game. Plain and simple.
yet they have not missed the playoffs since being in denver while posting a franchise high 57 wins...
what impact are you talking about fish.. what impact does melo have on a game.. I keep hearing that but he has been subpar in the playoffs... I am asking why do you and others attribute him "carrying a team to the playoffs" yet he needs another player to take the next step? wouldn't it be fair to say that if he can actually play at a higher level in the playoffs.. how is getting another stud player going to increase his production? getting such a player is going to require that he takes a back seat, take less shots.. do you know what kind of player you will have then? it takes carmelo 22 shots to get 28ppg..
if he took 17 shots per game, at 44% that will put his average around 19-20ppg counting in FT's and his shooting percentage from the line...
so now you have a guy at 19ppg who doesn't pass or defend.. do you think that is a championship worthy #2 guy? I don't think so..
this is what you are faced with having a guy like this on your team..