Knicks · ESPN says Melo ranked #15... (page 2)
knickscity wrote:holfresh wrote:Paul George #13.....hmmmmmm....Blake Griffin 14...Griffin had trouble staying on the court at the end of game during tight player off games ...He dunks, that's it...How does that crack top 25???
No that is matters to me at all but george is a two player, and stats favor that and analysts as well, plus he was on the team that beat ours.I like Blake, no i dont think he's better than Melo, but he does things I like.
He can score rebound and pass, if Doc makes him into a defender....then yeah he's better.
I think george is certainly better than carmelo..
Blake, although I have been critical of him over the years, does score,rebound and pass well.. almost 4 dimes a game... if he can become a better defender, then watch out...
I like him over carmelo because I know what he is... He is a PF, and plays like one.... carmelo plays PF on offense, sometimes on defense, depending on matchups.... I mean jeeez...
nixluva wrote:I think too many fans compare "Production" with "Impact". A guy like Love, Griffin or George has good production but in my opinion Melo has greater impact. He just changes the way a team plays and the way other teams play you. Very few players actually have a game that has impact. I'm not saying he's efficient but he puts pressure on the other team in a way that helps his team. However, you must have the rest of the team able to function at a decent level of efficiency. That's what we had for a good part of last year with the exception of the playoffs. Now they have to find a way to maintain the good team BB into the playoffs. There has to be a balance of the ISO ball and Team ball. We lost that balance in the playoffs last year.
what teams changes the way they play for carmelo? name me one team.. not the heat, not the bulls, not the pacers.... who? teams usually have a fairly easy game plan for carmelo, one which doesn't take much planning or changing... If you don't think guys like george and blake griffin don't have huge impacts on games then I suggest you watch more NBA outside of the knicks...
tkf wrote:knickscity wrote:holfresh wrote:Paul George #13.....hmmmmmm....Blake Griffin 14...Griffin had trouble staying on the court at the end of game during tight player off games ...He dunks, that's it...How does that crack top 25???
No that is matters to me at all but george is a two player, and stats favor that and analysts as well, plus he was on the team that beat ours.I like Blake, no i dont think he's better than Melo, but he does things I like.
He can score rebound and pass, if Doc makes him into a defender....then yeah he's better.
I think george is certainly better than carmelo..
Blake, although I have been critical of him over the years, does score,rebound and pass well.. almost 4 dimes a game... if he can become a better defender, then watch out...
I like him over carmelo because I know what he is... He is a PF, and plays like one.... carmelo plays PF on offense, sometimes on defense, depending on matchups.... I mean jeeez...
Melo actually defended 4's pretty well in his full time pf slot, i wont take that from him.
tkf wrote:nixluva wrote:I think too many fans compare "Production" with "Impact". A guy like Love, Griffin or George has good production but in my opinion Melo has greater impact. He just changes the way a team plays and the way other teams play you. Very few players actually have a game that has impact. I'm not saying he's efficient but he puts pressure on the other team in a way that helps his team. However, you must have the rest of the team able to function at a decent level of efficiency. That's what we had for a good part of last year with the exception of the playoffs. Now they have to find a way to maintain the good team BB into the playoffs. There has to be a balance of the ISO ball and Team ball. We lost that balance in the playoffs last year.what teams changes the way they play for carmelo? name me one team.. not the heat, not the bulls, not the pacers.... who? teams usually have a fairly easy game plan for carmelo, one which doesn't take much planning or changing... If you don't think guys like george and blake griffin don't have huge impacts on games then I suggest you watch more NBA outside of the knicks...
You actually only think you know what you're talking about. In truth it's not about changing what they do, but teams do have to account for Melo. You can't totally ignore the fact that Melo was one of the top scorers in the league last year with a high usage rate and thus teams do in fact have to account for Melo. He can't be ignored. If teams were so successful in stopping him with simple tactics then he wouldn't be able to score.
It's not Melo's fault that the play calling was simplistic and poor last year in the playoffs. It didn't have to be that way. That was Woody's fault. It's up to the coach to make the best use of a talent like Melo. Woody will never be confused with an offensive genius but he can and must do a better job.
The Bulls and Pacers are GREAT defensive teams. They do a great job of defending ISO plays. Now the issue isn't Melo, but WOODSON in how he responds to this fact. You have to attack those teams with more TEAM BB. Smarter plays that will force the defense to make adjustments and open up better shots for Melo. Woodson didn't run fewer ISO's against those teams he ran MORE!!! This was the height of BB stupidity.
Maybe the Knicks would have been better served going with a balance between pick-and-rolls and isolation sets.Felton thrived in the pick-and-roll in the third quarter on Sunday and the Knicks have had success on such plays in the postseason.
They are averaging 1.15 points per play on pick-and-roll plays and 0.67 points per play in isolation sets, per ESPN Stats and Information.
We all saw and commented on the fact that when Melo went quick with his offense rather than holding the ball and going ISO the team played much better. That's on the coach to make sure how the team plays is firmly in the minds of his players.
I believe the Knicks do in fact realize they had too much ISO with Melo and JR. I think they do want to mix it up more and become less predictable. In an offense that is more team oriented Melo will be more effective as will the entire team. We've all said it, the answer is BALL AND PLAYER MOVEMENT!!!
nixluva wrote:tkf wrote:nixluva wrote:I think too many fans compare "Production" with "Impact". A guy like Love, Griffin or George has good production but in my opinion Melo has greater impact. He just changes the way a team plays and the way other teams play you. Very few players actually have a game that has impact. I'm not saying he's efficient but he puts pressure on the other team in a way that helps his team. However, you must have the rest of the team able to function at a decent level of efficiency. That's what we had for a good part of last year with the exception of the playoffs. Now they have to find a way to maintain the good team BB into the playoffs. There has to be a balance of the ISO ball and Team ball. We lost that balance in the playoffs last year.what teams changes the way they play for carmelo? name me one team.. not the heat, not the bulls, not the pacers.... who? teams usually have a fairly easy game plan for carmelo, one which doesn't take much planning or changing... If you don't think guys like george and blake griffin don't have huge impacts on games then I suggest you watch more NBA outside of the knicks...
You actually only think you know what you're talking about. In truth it's not about changing what they do, but teams do have to account for Melo. You can't totally ignore the fact that Melo was one of the top scorers in the league last year with a high usage rate and thus teams do in fact have to account for Melo. He can't be ignored. If teams were so successful in stopping him with simple tactics then he wouldn't be able to score.
It's not Melo's fault that the play calling was simplistic and poor last year in the playoffs. It didn't have to be that way. That was Woody's fault. It's up to the coach to make the best use of a talent like Melo. Woody will never be confused with an offensive genius but he can and must do a better job.
The Bulls and Pacers are GREAT defensive teams. They do a great job of defending ISO plays. Now the issue isn't Melo, but WOODSON in how he responds to this fact. You have to attack those teams with more TEAM BB. Smarter plays that will force the defense to make adjustments and open up better shots for Melo. Woodson didn't run fewer ISO's against those teams he ran MORE!!! This was the height of BB stupidity.
Maybe the Knicks would have been better served going with a balance between pick-and-rolls and isolation sets.Felton thrived in the pick-and-roll in the third quarter on Sunday and the Knicks have had success on such plays in the postseason.
They are averaging 1.15 points per play on pick-and-roll plays and 0.67 points per play in isolation sets, per ESPN Stats and Information.
We all saw and commented on the fact that when Melo went quick with his offense rather than holding the ball and going ISO the team played much better. That's on the coach to make sure how the team plays is firmly in the minds of his players.
I believe the Knicks do in fact realize they had too much ISO with Melo and JR. I think they do want to mix it up more and become less predictable. In an offense that is more team oriented Melo will be more effective as will the entire team. We've all said it, the answer is BALL AND PLAYER MOVEMENT!!!
lets just get this out of the way... I know more about ball than you.. you speak with your heart.. that of a homer.. so don't tell me I think I know what I am talking about....
but teams do have to account for Melo.
so what, teams have to account for every player.. teams had to account for novak.. which is why miami payed so much attention to novak.. and your point is?
You can't totally ignore the fact that Melo was one of the top scorers in the league last year with a high usage rate and thus teams do in fact have to account for Melo. He can't be ignored.
when do NBA teams ignore anyone? they just don't game plan for him as much as you think.. carmelo does not change the way the pacers game plan.. the pacers take their best defender, george, stick him on carmelo and tell carmelo to shoot over his long arms.... the end.... this is what they do every game..
tkf wrote:lets just get this out of the way... I know more about ball than you.. you speak with your heart.. that of a homer.. so don't tell me I think I know what I am talking about....
Is this because you used to be a mod?
holfresh wrote:Steph Curry and Marc Gasol in the top 10...People's reasoning for Melo at 15 is his defense...Curry, the defensive demon is top 10...Have KLove ever been to the playoffs??...If Blake Griffin can't be on the court in crunch time, he is not a max player or a top 20 player...Those advanced stat misses that...I dont think gasol curry and love should be over him BUT melo is still not in that elite class with lebron kobe durant. His scoring is as good as anyone besides lebron but like i said his bad playoff record and flaws in defense keep him down a bit
StarksEwing1 wrote:holfresh wrote:Steph Curry and Marc Gasol in the top 10...People's reasoning for Melo at 15 is his defense...Curry, the defensive demon is top 10...Have KLove ever been to the playoffs??...If Blake Griffin can't be on the court in crunch time, he is not a max player or a top 20 player...Those advanced stat misses that...I dont think gasol curry and love should be over him BUT melo is still not in that elite class with lebron kobe durant. His scoring is as good as anyone besides lebron but like i said his bad playoff record and flaws in defense keep him down a bit
Durant has flaws in his defense and how did he look in the playoffs without Westbrook??..How did Kobe's team look last year with another top 10 guy playing next to him??..How did Wade look in his prime without Shaq or Bron next to him???..Curry is ranked in the top 10 and he cant guard a chair...
holfresh wrote:To be honest i dont give a damn who is ranked where. Its about winning in the playoffs. I just want the Knicks to win and go deep in the playoffs. I actually like melo but so far he hasnt had much success in the playoffs.StarksEwing1 wrote:holfresh wrote:Steph Curry and Marc Gasol in the top 10...People's reasoning for Melo at 15 is his defense...Curry, the defensive demon is top 10...Have KLove ever been to the playoffs??...If Blake Griffin can't be on the court in crunch time, he is not a max player or a top 20 player...Those advanced stat misses that...I dont think gasol curry and love should be over him BUT melo is still not in that elite class with lebron kobe durant. His scoring is as good as anyone besides lebron but like i said his bad playoff record and flaws in defense keep him down a bitDurant has flaws in his defense and how did he look in the playoffs without Westbrook??..How did Kobe's team look last year with another top 10 guy playing next to him??..How did Wade look in his prime without Shaq or Bron next to him???..Curry is ranked in the top 10 and he cant guard a chair...
StarksEwing1 wrote:holfresh wrote:To be honest i dont give a damn who is ranked where. Its about winning in the playoffs. I just want the Knicks to win and go deep in the playoffs. I actually like melo but so far he hasnt had much success in the playoffs.StarksEwing1 wrote:holfresh wrote:Steph Curry and Marc Gasol in the top 10...People's reasoning for Melo at 15 is his defense...Curry, the defensive demon is top 10...Have KLove ever been to the playoffs??...If Blake Griffin can't be on the court in crunch time, he is not a max player or a top 20 player...Those advanced stat misses that...I dont think gasol curry and love should be over him BUT melo is still not in that elite class with lebron kobe durant. His scoring is as good as anyone besides lebron but like i said his bad playoff record and flaws in defense keep him down a bitDurant has flaws in his defense and how did he look in the playoffs without Westbrook??..How did Kobe's team look last year with another top 10 guy playing next to him??..How did Wade look in his prime without Shaq or Bron next to him???..Curry is ranked in the top 10 and he cant guard a chair...
It doesn't matter if you like Melo or not..If doesn't matter if you care who is ranked where..We are talking facts here..Everyone on an even plain..Just facts...Where is KD without Westbrook??..How far in the playoffs???...Where is Kobe without Gasol or Shaq???..Where is Wade without any of those guys??...How a team does in the playoffs isn't on one guys shoulders...There is more to it than that narrow point of view...
StarksEwing1 wrote:holfresh wrote:To be honest i dont give a damn who is ranked where. Its about winning in the playoffs. I just want the Knicks to win and go deep in the playoffs. I actually like melo but so far he hasnt had much success in the playoffs.StarksEwing1 wrote:holfresh wrote:Steph Curry and Marc Gasol in the top 10...People's reasoning for Melo at 15 is his defense...Curry, the defensive demon is top 10...Have KLove ever been to the playoffs??...If Blake Griffin can't be on the court in crunch time, he is not a max player or a top 20 player...Those advanced stat misses that...I dont think gasol curry and love should be over him BUT melo is still not in that elite class with lebron kobe durant. His scoring is as good as anyone besides lebron but like i said his bad playoff record and flaws in defense keep him down a bitDurant has flaws in his defense and how did he look in the playoffs without Westbrook??..How did Kobe's team look last year with another top 10 guy playing next to him??..How did Wade look in his prime without Shaq or Bron next to him???..Curry is ranked in the top 10 and he cant guard a chair...
well, to be fair, what player, besides lebron and maybe kobe and cp3, would have been more successful with the constructed knicks team than melo?
tkf wrote:knickscity wrote:holfresh wrote:Paul George #13.....hmmmmmm....Blake Griffin 14...Griffin had trouble staying on the court at the end of game during tight player off games ...He dunks, that's it...How does that crack top 25???
No that is matters to me at all but george is a two player, and stats favor that and analysts as well, plus he was on the team that beat ours.I like Blake, no i dont think he's better than Melo, but he does things I like.
He can score rebound and pass, if Doc makes him into a defender....then yeah he's better.
I think george is certainly better than carmelo..
Blake, although I have been critical of him over the years, does score,rebound and pass well.. almost 4 dimes a game... if he can become a better defender, then watch out...
I like him over carmelo because I know what he is... He is a PF, and plays like one.... carmelo plays PF on offense, sometimes on defense, depending on matchups.... I mean jeeez...
however, george wilted during the elimination game against miami. i like george and he is an elite defender but he has major flaws offensively.
jazz74 wrote:Im pretty sure i said other than lebron kobe or maybe durant nobody is ahead of melo. In fact i said guys like griffin gasol and curry arent as good as melo. I mean im trying to be fair. In order to get all the accolades from afns you ahve to be successful in the playoffs its just the way it isStarksEwing1 wrote:holfresh wrote:To be honest i dont give a damn who is ranked where. Its about winning in the playoffs. I just want the Knicks to win and go deep in the playoffs. I actually like melo but so far he hasnt had much success in the playoffs.StarksEwing1 wrote:holfresh wrote:Steph Curry and Marc Gasol in the top 10...People's reasoning for Melo at 15 is his defense...Curry, the defensive demon is top 10...Have KLove ever been to the playoffs??...If Blake Griffin can't be on the court in crunch time, he is not a max player or a top 20 player...Those advanced stat misses that...I dont think gasol curry and love should be over him BUT melo is still not in that elite class with lebron kobe durant. His scoring is as good as anyone besides lebron but like i said his bad playoff record and flaws in defense keep him down a bitDurant has flaws in his defense and how did he look in the playoffs without Westbrook??..How did Kobe's team look last year with another top 10 guy playing next to him??..How did Wade look in his prime without Shaq or Bron next to him???..Curry is ranked in the top 10 and he cant guard a chair...
well, to be fair, what player, besides lebron and maybe kobe and cp3, would have been more successful with the constructed knicks team than melo?
jazz74 wrote:typical espn hate......how can a player who leads the league in scoring and third in mvp voting be only 15? I am hard pressed to think of five players better than him.
I can lead the league in scoring too if I chucked it 50 times a game.
tkf wrote:Can't imagine where Melo would be on that list if he was playing with Paul. Blake shoots 61 % from the line and goes there a lot. He also plays with the best point guard in the game.knickscity wrote:holfresh wrote:Paul George #13.....hmmmmmm....Blake Griffin 14...Griffin had trouble staying on the court at the end of game during tight player off games ...He dunks, that's it...How does that crack top 25???
No that is matters to me at all but george is a two player, and stats favor that and analysts as well, plus he was on the team that beat ours.I like Blake, no i dont think he's better than Melo, but he does things I like.
He can score rebound and pass, if Doc makes him into a defender....then yeah he's better.
I think george is certainly better than carmelo..
Blake, although I have been critical of him over the years, does score,rebound and pass well.. almost 4 dimes a game... if he can become a better defender, then watch out...
I like him over carmelo because I know what he is... He is a PF, and plays like one.... carmelo plays PF on offense, sometimes on defense, depending on matchups.... I mean jeeez...
ShellTopAdidas wrote:Some get offended because Melo doenst get enough praise. well the best way to fix that is to at least get to the fianls or at least give the ehat a run for their money in the ECFjazz74 wrote:typical espn hate......how can a player who leads the league in scoring and third in mvp voting be only 15? I am hard pressed to think of five players better than him.I can lead the league in scoring too if I chucked it 50 times a game.
StarksEwing1 wrote:ShellTopAdidas wrote:Some get offended because Melo doenst get enough praise. well the best way to fix that is to at least get to the fianls or at least give the ehat a run for their money in the ECFjazz74 wrote:typical espn hate......how can a player who leads the league in scoring and third in mvp voting be only 15? I am hard pressed to think of five players better than him.I can lead the league in scoring too if I chucked it 50 times a game.
That'd be fair if he could actually get credit for it. A lot of what he's done here is downplayed or attributed to anyone but him.
tkf wrote:
lets just get this out of the way... I know more about ball than you.. you speak with your heart.. that of a homer.. so don't tell me I think I know what I am talking about....
You think no one else knows how the Pacers defend Melo? That isn't some freakin mystery. The Pacers approach defensively is very effective against ISO but then great defensive teams are gonna be good against almost everyone and everything. Still held ball ISO is never gonna work against them. This is why I complained so hard about Woodson actually allowing the team to INCREASE the amount of ISO they played rather than reduce it against the Pacers. Every single post i've made has driven home this point. So there's nothing you've said which disproves my points.
My other point was that the Knicks seem to have tried to address this issue by making changes to the roster that would allow them to reduce the amount of reliance on Melo and JR ISO's. When Melo went quicker with his offense and looked to score in the flow of the offense rather than holding the ball and stopping the offense then things worked out much better for the Knicks. The problem was that Woodson didn't make sure to maintain that approach and on top of that we had too many slumping players.
The Key this year will be greater Versatility and depth of talent on this roster. Melo is a superior talent when he's playing the right way. The coach's job is to create the best circumstances for his best players to excel. The best way to help Melo is to get him playing in the flow of the offense. To go quicker rather than slow it down to a stand still holding the ball. The more you insist upon this style of play the better.