Knicks · Mike Woodson please put melo back at 4 (page 4)

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

yellowboy90 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

That's because you assume that if you have a high usage you should have a higher assist rate. I am not sure there is a correlation.

you want a healthy balance for his position... whichever it is.

between 0.40:1 and 0.60:1 is pure point guard territory so far as my research tells me.
0.60:1 to 0.85 is tweener-guard territory, players who need help orchestrating if listed as the point guard.
anything around 1:1 to 1.4:1 is a shooting guard's territory. the best small forwards fall within this range too, btw
1.40:1 to 1.70:1 is small forward territory
power forwards and centers are in the 1.70 range.

in general and as a rule, no player should have a ratio higher than 2.00:1 if they hope to contribute properly to their team's offensive cohesion... unless they are contributing substantively in other areas of the game such as defense and offensive rebounding.

yellowboy90 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

That's because you assume that if you have a high usage you should have a higher assist rate. I am not sure there is a correlation.

How could there not be? With a high usage, all your raw numbers should go up - FGs made, FGs attempted, assists, turnovers, etc. For Melo, all of them are high except assists.

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

He got out-rebounded last year at both the SF and PF spots. The SF data are based on about 330 minutes of playing time. The prior year he broke even at the SF spot. You can get the data at 82games.com
His usage to assist ratio is historically bad at either position. So, it would be lower than other SFs.

the dude has been empty calories his entire career. and since when has the vaunted volume shooting ever been a good thing?

dk7th wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

He got out-rebounded last year at both the SF and PF spots. The SF data are based on about 330 minutes of playing time. The prior year he broke even at the SF spot. You can get the data at 82games.com
His usage to assist ratio is historically bad at either position. So, it would be lower than other SFs.

the dude has been empty calories his entire career. and since when has the vaunted volume shooting ever been a good thing?

Lol, when I think of empty calories, I think of Mc Donalds Big Mac.

I like em every now and then when I eat them, but an hour later I can eat another....what a waste.

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

That's because you assume that if you have a high usage you should have a higher assist rate. I am not sure there is a correlation.

How could there not be? With a high usage, all your raw numbers should go up - FGs made, FGs attempted, assists, turnovers, etc. For Melo, all of them are high except assists.

I'm in between homework but just looking at two other SFs I see that there best AR came in one of their lower usage years and the same for Melo.

Also, why use just a year and a half of data for Melo as a SF? Doesn't that shrink the sample size?

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

That's because you assume that if you have a high usage you should have a higher assist rate. I am not sure there is a correlation.

How could there not be? With a high usage, all your raw numbers should go up - FGs made, FGs attempted, assists, turnovers, etc. For Melo, all of them are high except assists.

I'm in between homework but just looking at two other SFs I see that there best AR came in one of their lower usage years and the same for Melo.

Also, why use just a year and a half of data for Melo as a SF? Doesn't that shrink the sample size?

because Melo is well past the point where players are in their statistical peak. I don't expect him to rebound like he did four years ago, and he hasn't been.
What do you mean by assist "rate"? I assumed you meant per game #s or per 48 min #s.

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

Melo is a good rebounder as a small forward, usually he was near the top in that.

But as a 4, he was obviously not as good....he hadnt posted 6 boards in the playoffs since he was a kid, but that could have been injury related.

But 6 rebounds isnt cutting it for a power forward, thats a liability.

I'm sorry but what do you mean? He has not posted 6 boards in the playoffs as a 4 or he hasn't posted below 6 boards since he was a kid. I can go look it up but I just wanted clarification.

he's only played the 4 in the playoff once, so i'm not talking about that....I'm talking 6 total.

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

Melo is a good rebounder as a small forward, usually he was near the top in that.

But as a 4, he was obviously not as good....he hadnt posted 6 boards in the playoffs since he was a kid, but that could have been injury related.

But 6 rebounds isnt cutting it for a power forward, thats a liability.

I'm sorry but what do you mean? He has not posted 6 boards in the playoffs as a 4 or he hasn't posted below 6 boards since he was a kid. I can go look it up but I just wanted clarification.

he's only played the 4 in the playoff once, so i'm not talking about that....I'm talking 6 total.

I know he averaged over 7 against the Pacers because he was the leading rebounder for the team.

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

Melo is a good rebounder as a small forward, usually he was near the top in that.

But as a 4, he was obviously not as good....he hadnt posted 6 boards in the playoffs since he was a kid, but that could have been injury related.

But 6 rebounds isnt cutting it for a power forward, thats a liability.

I'm sorry but what do you mean? He has not posted 6 boards in the playoffs as a 4 or he hasn't posted below 6 boards since he was a kid. I can go look it up but I just wanted clarification.

he's only played the 4 in the playoff once, so i'm not talking about that....I'm talking 6 total.

I know he averaged over 7 against the Pacers because he was the leading rebounder for the team.

I made the above comment larger....7 boards is dismal for a pf.

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

Melo is a good rebounder as a small forward, usually he was near the top in that.

But as a 4, he was obviously not as good....he hadnt posted 6 boards in the playoffs since he was a kid, but that could have been injury related.

But 6 rebounds isnt cutting it for a power forward, thats a liability.

I'm sorry but what do you mean? He has not posted 6 boards in the playoffs as a 4 or he hasn't posted below 6 boards since he was a kid. I can go look it up but I just wanted clarification.

he's only played the 4 in the playoff once, so i'm not talking about that....I'm talking 6 total.

I know he averaged over 7 against the Pacers because he was the leading rebounder for the team.

I made the above comment larger....7 boards is dismal for a pf.

Not arguing that point. I thought you said he hadn't averaged 6 boards in a playoff series. He averaged over 7 against Indiana and led the team in rebounding. It doesn't say much for Tyson in that series.

Even in the Pacer series his rebounding wasnt consistent regardless of average....Shumpert outrebounded him in one game, actually got double his tally and tied him another....and melo has little to zero interest in chasing his own shot, but i attributed that to his injury.

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

Melo is a good rebounder as a small forward, usually he was near the top in that.

But as a 4, he was obviously not as good....he hadnt posted 6 boards in the playoffs since he was a kid, but that could have been injury related.

But 6 rebounds isnt cutting it for a power forward, thats a liability.

I'm sorry but what do you mean? He has not posted 6 boards in the playoffs as a 4 or he hasn't posted below 6 boards since he was a kid. I can go look it up but I just wanted clarification.

he's only played the 4 in the playoff once, so i'm not talking about that....I'm talking 6 total.

I know he averaged over 7 against the Pacers because he was the leading rebounder for the team.

I made the above comment larger....7 boards is dismal for a pf.

Not arguing that point. I thought you said he hadn't averaged 6 boards in a playoff series. He averaged over 7 against Indiana and led the team in rebounding. It doesn't say much for Tyson in that series.

My point didnt specify a single series, it was strictly on his rebounding average and the position he played.

Even in the Pacer series his rebounding wasnt consistent regardless of average....Shumpert outrebounded him in one game, actually got double his tally and tied him another....and melo has little to zero interest in chasing his own shot, but i attributed that to his injury.

The coach would like to start the season with a traditional lineup featuring Bargnani at power forward and Anthony at small forward. But he hinted on Saturday that he wouldn't hesitate to switch things up if that lineup doesn't produce. That could mean inserting Metta World Peace in the starting unit and bringing Bargnani in off the bench.

"I’ll experiment with it, but I’ve got options this year, guys. I mean, I can always go small with melo at the 4, with small teams. And throw Bargnani in there when we got big teams," Woodson said. "Again, it’s not a matter of who starts. It’s what you do with the minutes that you’re in there, and that’s kind of the message I’m sending everybody on this team. You’ve got to give productive minutes when you’re on the floor if you want to play."

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

Melo is a good rebounder as a small forward, usually he was near the top in that.

But as a 4, he was obviously not as good....he hadnt posted 6 boards in the playoffs since he was a kid, but that could have been injury related.

But 6 rebounds isnt cutting it for a power forward, thats a liability.

I'm sorry but what do you mean? He has not posted 6 boards in the playoffs as a 4 or he hasn't posted below 6 boards since he was a kid. I can go look it up but I just wanted clarification.

he's only played the 4 in the playoff once, so i'm not talking about that....I'm talking 6 total.

I know he averaged over 7 against the Pacers because he was the leading rebounder for the team.

I made the above comment larger....7 boards is dismal for a pf.

Not arguing that point. I thought you said he hadn't averaged 6 boards in a playoff series. He averaged over 7 against Indiana and led the team in rebounding. It doesn't say much for Tyson in that series.

My point didnt specify a single series, it was strictly on his rebounding average and the position he played.

Even in the Pacer series his rebounding wasnt consistent regardless of average....Shumpert outrebounded him in one game, actually got double his tally and tied him another....and melo has little to zero interest in chasing his own shot, but i attributed that to his injury.

He averaged 6.6 boards in the playoffs.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...

Which do you think is worse...your starting SF getting 6 boards in under 30 minutes....or your starting pf getting 6.6 in 40?

Be honest you can really defend Melo's rebounding as a 4....then to make matters worse he didnt even average 1 on the offensive end.

He's usually good at chasing his misses, and he had lot of them....60% worth.

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

Melo is a good rebounder as a small forward, usually he was near the top in that.

But as a 4, he was obviously not as good....he hadnt posted 6 boards in the playoffs since he was a kid, but that could have been injury related.

But 6 rebounds isnt cutting it for a power forward, thats a liability.

I'm sorry but what do you mean? He has not posted 6 boards in the playoffs as a 4 or he hasn't posted below 6 boards since he was a kid. I can go look it up but I just wanted clarification.

he's only played the 4 in the playoff once, so i'm not talking about that....I'm talking 6 total.

Doing a quick look I see he posted 7 or more boards 7 times last year, had just 6 rebs twice and under 6 rebs in 3 games.

Melo plays and rebounds at the 4 and at the 3 when you see 4s getting high rebounds they are not making as many shots as Melo. You only hear Melo's stats criticized by the Sean Hannity of this forum and we all know who he is the one who says things and give misleading figures.

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

Melo is a good rebounder as a small forward, usually he was near the top in that.

But as a 4, he was obviously not as good....he hadnt posted 6 boards in the playoffs since he was a kid, but that could have been injury related.

But 6 rebounds isnt cutting it for a power forward, thats a liability.

I'm sorry but what do you mean? He has not posted 6 boards in the playoffs as a 4 or he hasn't posted below 6 boards since he was a kid. I can go look it up but I just wanted clarification.

he's only played the 4 in the playoff once, so i'm not talking about that....I'm talking 6 total.

I know he averaged over 7 against the Pacers because he was the leading rebounder for the team.

I made the above comment larger....7 boards is dismal for a pf.

Not arguing that point. I thought you said he hadn't averaged 6 boards in a playoff series. He averaged over 7 against Indiana and led the team in rebounding. It doesn't say much for Tyson in that series.

My point didnt specify a single series, it was strictly on his rebounding average and the position he played.

Even in the Pacer series his rebounding wasnt consistent regardless of average....Shumpert outrebounded him in one game, actually got double his tally and tied him another....and melo has little to zero interest in chasing his own shot, but i attributed that to his injury.

He averaged 6.6 boards in the playoffs.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...

A hair above Shumpert, not good at all.

Which do you think is worse...your starting SF getting 6 boards in under 30 minutes....or your starting pf getting 6.6 in 40?

Be honest you can really defend Melo's rebounding as a 4....then to make matters worse he didnt even average 1 on the offensive end.

He's usually good at chasing his misses, and he had lot of them....60% worth.

I didnt post it to defend the rate he rebounded at. I posted it because you posted that he hadn't averaged 6 rebounds in the playoffs since he was a kid. He averaged more then that last year.

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

Melo is a good rebounder as a small forward, usually he was near the top in that.

But as a 4, he was obviously not as good....he hadnt posted 6 boards in the playoffs since he was a kid, but that could have been injury related.

But 6 rebounds isnt cutting it for a power forward, thats a liability.

I'm sorry but what do you mean? He has not posted 6 boards in the playoffs as a 4 or he hasn't posted below 6 boards since he was a kid. I can go look it up but I just wanted clarification.

he's only played the 4 in the playoff once, so i'm not talking about that....I'm talking 6 total.

I know he averaged over 7 against the Pacers because he was the leading rebounder for the team.

I made the above comment larger....7 boards is dismal for a pf.

Not arguing that point. I thought you said he hadn't averaged 6 boards in a playoff series. He averaged over 7 against Indiana and led the team in rebounding. It doesn't say much for Tyson in that series.

My point didnt specify a single series, it was strictly on his rebounding average and the position he played.

Even in the Pacer series his rebounding wasnt consistent regardless of average....Shumpert outrebounded him in one game, actually got double his tally and tied him another....and melo has little to zero interest in chasing his own shot, but i attributed that to his injury.

He averaged 6.6 boards in the playoffs.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...

A hair above Shumpert, not good at all.

Which do you think is worse...your starting SF getting 6 boards in under 30 minutes....or your starting pf getting 6.6 in 40?

Be honest you can really defend Melo's rebounding as a 4....then to make matters worse he didnt even average 1 on the offensive end.

He's usually good at chasing his misses, and he had lot of them....60% worth.

I didnt post it to defend the rate he rebounded at. I posted it because you posted that he hadn't averaged 6 rebounds in the playoffs since he was a kid. He averaged more then that last year.

The point still stands, he hasnt averaged that low of a number since he was a kid.

Papabear wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:So I guess Melo rebound rate as a small forward is lower than other sfs? His assist rate as an SF must be lower too as well as all the other things.

So how about the statisticians do a little work and post the numbers compared to SFs and PFs. To back up their claims to put the discussion to semi-rest.

bonn likely has those stats. i can tell you right now that his assist rate is nothing to brag about.

Melo is a good rebounder as a small forward, usually he was near the top in that.

But as a 4, he was obviously not as good....he hadnt posted 6 boards in the playoffs since he was a kid, but that could have been injury related.

But 6 rebounds isnt cutting it for a power forward, thats a liability.

I'm sorry but what do you mean? He has not posted 6 boards in the playoffs as a 4 or he hasn't posted below 6 boards since he was a kid. I can go look it up but I just wanted clarification.

he's only played the 4 in the playoff once, so i'm not talking about that....I'm talking 6 total.

Doing a quick look I see he posted 7 or more boards 7 times last year, had just 6 rebs twice and under 6 rebs in 3 games.

Papabear Says

Melo plays and rebounds at the 4 and at the 3 when you see 4s getting high rebounds they are not making as many shots as Melo. You only hear Melo's stats criticized by the Sean Hannity of this forum and we all know who he is the one who says things and give misleading figures.

sorry to disturb your basketball fantasy world, papabear... your boy may be making more shots but that is leaving out the fact that he is taking more shots too-- way too many shots for his team's own good.

he took 25 shots a game in the pacer series. david west took 11.8 shots, paul george took 16.5 shots.

that is one player taking 25 shots per game and two players taking a combined total of 28.3 shots per game.

additionally, while west shot 53%TS and george 50%TS-- which are not good numbers, anthony shot 51%TS, which for a so-called elite scorer is straight up terrible.

i am not sure if you understand the ramifications, so i will spell it out for you: one player taking 25 shots on his team undermines that team's ability to win, especially when no matter how you slice it he does so inefficiently.

Rookie wrote:Would like to see Melo back at 4 with MWP at the 3. Would also like to see Bargs at the 3 with Stat at the 4 in the second unit. Second unit should play zone D.

stat will never again play a meaningful role for this or any other team in the universe

IronWillGiroud wrote:

Rookie wrote:Would like to see Melo back at 4 with MWP at the 3. Would also like to see Bargs at the 3 with Stat at the 4 in the second unit. Second unit should play zone D.

stat will never again play a meaningful role for this or any other team in the universe

Yeah, well hopefully they get that Tyler kid back on the team when he's healed up. I think he is only going to improve.