Knicks · What Should Be Our Course of Action? (page 2)
Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:arkrud wrote:NardDogNation wrote:arkrud wrote:Rebuild. There is no other way any more for me.
If they will resign Melo for max this team for me is over.
So for me rebuild is the only option to continue following them.
But I would not bet on it - like 5% possibility.Would you be opposed to Melo getting the max if it was frontloaded, so that he'll make the lowest amount at the end of his contract?
As for what we should do, I'm definitely on the fence. I don't think Melo is the issue with our team but I'm also hesitant to extend him given the beating he has taken over the course of his career. I know most disagree but I think he'll start to break down in the next 2 seasons ala Allan Houston, which is unnerving at his price tag. Even if we do manage to build a more competitive and complimentary roster, it would be for naught if he can't even get on the court.
Another compelling issue is the fact that he can leave at seasons end for greener pastures. This roster we've assembled around him sucks and I think that he could be tempted to leave and join LeBron, wherever that is.
Melo can save this team... by leaving somewhere...
He is not the problem but he is not a solution.
He is just another way to hide the fundamental issues with how this organization run.
Isaih helps us last time to start looking in the mirror now it is Melos turn.Nothing good would come from simply letting Melo walk.
That would leave room for a real max contract player.
That said, I wanted to trade him when he was winning player of the month awards but I'd still rather see him walk than sign a max contract.I've never been a fan of relying on cap space to obtain a star. The Dallas Mavericks are my cautionary tale for this strategy and it should be for the league. That being said, we need to make sure Carmelo is under contract because at the very least, he guarantees we can get something of value in return for him. After all, the Nets were prepared to surrender a package that effectively gave the Utah Jazz a new franchise, for Melo.
You can get something in value in return for the cap space too. If you don't land the max contract player you want, there's nothing wrong in having two $10 mil per players at the Millsap/Ibaka level.
The Jazz had that (with Jefferson and Millsap) and rightly opted to let them go. The best that those teams can do is make the playoffs as a 1st round out. What's the point in that? Besides, Melo could easily give you that in a trade and then some. I'm not sure why this is even a debate.
I highly doubt Melo can give you both those players in a trade - Not a 30 year old Melo with 5 max contract years left. A guy owed guaranteed max dollars through his sixteenth season isn't so appealing.
Forget 1st round. You could sign 2 guys at the Millsap Ibaka level in 2015 and still leave open room for another max contract FA.
There is too much conjecture involved in this. "If" we sign player A. "IF" we sign player B. The Nets tried this strategy in 2010 and got burned. The Mavericks tried this strategy from 2011 until now and similarly got burned. Hell, we tried this strategy ourselves in 2010 and got HORRIBLY burned. I'm not sure why this time around would be so different (if we have no focal point to retool with). I honestly don't know why you think its a good idea to let Melo walk as opposed to trading him under contract. To each his own I suppose. Personally, I think a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.
NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:arkrud wrote:NardDogNation wrote:arkrud wrote:Rebuild. There is no other way any more for me.
If they will resign Melo for max this team for me is over.
So for me rebuild is the only option to continue following them.
But I would not bet on it - like 5% possibility.Would you be opposed to Melo getting the max if it was frontloaded, so that he'll make the lowest amount at the end of his contract?
As for what we should do, I'm definitely on the fence. I don't think Melo is the issue with our team but I'm also hesitant to extend him given the beating he has taken over the course of his career. I know most disagree but I think he'll start to break down in the next 2 seasons ala Allan Houston, which is unnerving at his price tag. Even if we do manage to build a more competitive and complimentary roster, it would be for naught if he can't even get on the court.
Another compelling issue is the fact that he can leave at seasons end for greener pastures. This roster we've assembled around him sucks and I think that he could be tempted to leave and join LeBron, wherever that is.
Melo can save this team... by leaving somewhere...
He is not the problem but he is not a solution.
He is just another way to hide the fundamental issues with how this organization run.
Isaih helps us last time to start looking in the mirror now it is Melos turn.Nothing good would come from simply letting Melo walk.
That would leave room for a real max contract player.
That said, I wanted to trade him when he was winning player of the month awards but I'd still rather see him walk than sign a max contract.I've never been a fan of relying on cap space to obtain a star. The Dallas Mavericks are my cautionary tale for this strategy and it should be for the league. That being said, we need to make sure Carmelo is under contract because at the very least, he guarantees we can get something of value in return for him. After all, the Nets were prepared to surrender a package that effectively gave the Utah Jazz a new franchise, for Melo.
You can get something in value in return for the cap space too. If you don't land the max contract player you want, there's nothing wrong in having two $10 mil per players at the Millsap/Ibaka level.
The Jazz had that (with Jefferson and Millsap) and rightly opted to let them go. The best that those teams can do is make the playoffs as a 1st round out. What's the point in that? Besides, Melo could easily give you that in a trade and then some. I'm not sure why this is even a debate.
I highly doubt Melo can give you both those players in a trade - Not a 30 year old Melo with 5 max contract years left. A guy owed guaranteed max dollars through his sixteenth season isn't so appealing.
Forget 1st round. You could sign 2 guys at the Millsap Ibaka level in 2015 and still leave open room for another max contract FA.
There is too much conjecture involved in this. "If" we sign player A. "IF" we sign player B. The Nets tried this strategy in 2010 and got burned. The Mavericks tried this strategy from 2011 until now and similarly got burned. Hell, we tried this strategy ourselves in 2010 and got HORRIBLY burned. I'm not sure why this time around would be so different (if we have no focal point to retool with). I honestly don't know why you think its a good idea to let Melo walk as opposed to trading him under contract. To each his own I suppose. Personally, I think a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.
The 2010 strategy failed because the management made awful decisions, not because it's a bad idea to have cap space.
Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:arkrud wrote:NardDogNation wrote:arkrud wrote:Rebuild. There is no other way any more for me.
If they will resign Melo for max this team for me is over.
So for me rebuild is the only option to continue following them.
But I would not bet on it - like 5% possibility.Would you be opposed to Melo getting the max if it was frontloaded, so that he'll make the lowest amount at the end of his contract?
As for what we should do, I'm definitely on the fence. I don't think Melo is the issue with our team but I'm also hesitant to extend him given the beating he has taken over the course of his career. I know most disagree but I think he'll start to break down in the next 2 seasons ala Allan Houston, which is unnerving at his price tag. Even if we do manage to build a more competitive and complimentary roster, it would be for naught if he can't even get on the court.
Another compelling issue is the fact that he can leave at seasons end for greener pastures. This roster we've assembled around him sucks and I think that he could be tempted to leave and join LeBron, wherever that is.
Melo can save this team... by leaving somewhere...
He is not the problem but he is not a solution.
He is just another way to hide the fundamental issues with how this organization run.
Isaih helps us last time to start looking in the mirror now it is Melos turn.Nothing good would come from simply letting Melo walk.
That would leave room for a real max contract player.
That said, I wanted to trade him when he was winning player of the month awards but I'd still rather see him walk than sign a max contract.I've never been a fan of relying on cap space to obtain a star. The Dallas Mavericks are my cautionary tale for this strategy and it should be for the league. That being said, we need to make sure Carmelo is under contract because at the very least, he guarantees we can get something of value in return for him. After all, the Nets were prepared to surrender a package that effectively gave the Utah Jazz a new franchise, for Melo.
You can get something in value in return for the cap space too. If you don't land the max contract player you want, there's nothing wrong in having two $10 mil per players at the Millsap/Ibaka level.
The Jazz had that (with Jefferson and Millsap) and rightly opted to let them go. The best that those teams can do is make the playoffs as a 1st round out. What's the point in that? Besides, Melo could easily give you that in a trade and then some. I'm not sure why this is even a debate.
I highly doubt Melo can give you both those players in a trade - Not a 30 year old Melo with 5 max contract years left. A guy owed guaranteed max dollars through his sixteenth season isn't so appealing.
Forget 1st round. You could sign 2 guys at the Millsap Ibaka level in 2015 and still leave open room for another max contract FA.
There is too much conjecture involved in this. "If" we sign player A. "IF" we sign player B. The Nets tried this strategy in 2010 and got burned. The Mavericks tried this strategy from 2011 until now and similarly got burned. Hell, we tried this strategy ourselves in 2010 and got HORRIBLY burned. I'm not sure why this time around would be so different (if we have no focal point to retool with). I honestly don't know why you think its a good idea to let Melo walk as opposed to trading him under contract. To each his own I suppose. Personally, I think a bird in hand is worth two in the bush.
The 2010 strategy failed because the management made awful decisions, not because it's a bad idea to have cap space.
And so every other team that it's failed for except the Heat,have had bad management?
NardDogNation wrote:JohnStarksFan wrote:You STAY THE COURSE. You stay the course through this year, regardless of the outcome. You let Melo test free agency and don't bust your nut on him right away. You make a real plan for the future (without draft picks mind you). You use that plan to try to keep Melo here, but you don't do more than that. If he's going to test the waters, you can't stop it, let him do it. Who knows, maybe he'll decide to keep the extension. Let's say he does (I realize this probably won't happen). You'll be starting next season with your 4 highest salaries (Melo, STAT, Chandler, Bargs) for a total of 73.5 Mill. Yup 73.5 Mill for 4 guys. All off the books. If you're smart, you parlay 1 or 2 of those contracts into draft picks and exciting young players (true talent or seat fillers really), make a trade with one of your other guys who over produced for draft picks or more young talent, and start out the 2015-2016 season with somewhere near 45 million in cap space (without Melo). And you start over if need be. If you keep Melo, you need to keep the total payroll over the cap so when you resign him you use bird's rights, and get shot in the face with luxury tax. But you take the hit if this is one of your guys and he's committed.This is a nice fantasy right? I need a shot.
If you stay the course, you're looking at a middling team at best and risk the possibility of losing/wearing out your best player like we did with Allan Houston and Patrick Ewing. If this becomes a reality, we'd effectively be rehashing the past decade of ineptitude when we had no picks, nothing but washed up players signed to cap-killing deals and a lottery team. I'd rather rebuild from a position of strength, than wait and have our hands forced to do so.
What rebuild? With what pieces? Who are we getting if we swap out these guys right now?
NardDogNation wrote:arkrud wrote:NardDogNation wrote:arkrud wrote:Rebuild. There is no other way any more for me.
If they will resign Melo for max this team for me is over.
So for me rebuild is the only option to continue following them.
But I would not bet on it - like 5% possibility.Would you be opposed to Melo getting the max if it was frontloaded, so that he'll make the lowest amount at the end of his contract?
As for what we should do, I'm definitely on the fence. I don't think Melo is the issue with our team but I'm also hesitant to extend him given the beating he has taken over the course of his career. I know most disagree but I think he'll start to break down in the next 2 seasons ala Allan Houston, which is unnerving at his price tag. Even if we do manage to build a more competitive and complimentary roster, it would be for naught if he can't even get on the court.
Another compelling issue is the fact that he can leave at seasons end for greener pastures. This roster we've assembled around him sucks and I think that he could be tempted to leave and join LeBron, wherever that is.
Melo can save this team... by leaving somewhere...
He is not the problem but he is not a solution.
He is just another way to hide the fundamental issues with how this organization run.
Isaih helps us last time to start looking in the mirror now it is Melos turn.Nothing good would come from simply letting Melo walk.
i agree. He should be traded.
GoNyGoNyGo wrote:NardDogNation wrote:arkrud wrote:NardDogNation wrote:arkrud wrote:Rebuild. There is no other way any more for me.
If they will resign Melo for max this team for me is over.
So for me rebuild is the only option to continue following them.
But I would not bet on it - like 5% possibility.Would you be opposed to Melo getting the max if it was frontloaded, so that he'll make the lowest amount at the end of his contract?
As for what we should do, I'm definitely on the fence. I don't think Melo is the issue with our team but I'm also hesitant to extend him given the beating he has taken over the course of his career. I know most disagree but I think he'll start to break down in the next 2 seasons ala Allan Houston, which is unnerving at his price tag. Even if we do manage to build a more competitive and complimentary roster, it would be for naught if he can't even get on the court.
Another compelling issue is the fact that he can leave at seasons end for greener pastures. This roster we've assembled around him sucks and I think that he could be tempted to leave and join LeBron, wherever that is.
Melo can save this team... by leaving somewhere...
He is not the problem but he is not a solution.
He is just another way to hide the fundamental issues with how this organization run.
Isaih helps us last time to start looking in the mirror now it is Melos turn.Nothing good would come from simply letting Melo walk.
i agree. He should be traded.
I think most people would welcome the idea of trading Melo, problem is we're not trading him. I think the realistic outcome we can hope for would be a frontloaded deal as been mentioned by others. I would love for us to trade Melo, I just don't see it happening.
Anyone who thought this group would pick up where the 54 win team finished, was not paying attention.
54 wins looks awfully out of vreach right now.
Course of action? Hilarious. This ain't fantasy league....
.... and Steve Mills does not have the authority to make deals.
misterearl wrote:We brought in 13 new players.Anyone who thought this group would pick up where the 54 win team finished, was not paying attention.
54 wins looks awfully out of vreach right now.
Course of action? Hilarious. This ain't fantasy league....
.... and Steve Mills does not have the authority to make deals.
13 new players?
knickscity wrote:
13 new players?
Count the new names on the training camp roster
misterearl wrote:13knickscity wrote:
13 new players?Count the new names on the training camp roster
Why care about the training camp roster. All that should matter is the 15 we have now and how well they are meshing. From that group, I count 7 new faces that were suppose to be upgrades over their predecessors.
misterearl wrote:We brought in 13 new players.Anyone who thought this group would pick up where the 54 win team finished, was not paying attention.
54 wins looks awfully out of vreach right now.
Course of action? Hilarious. This ain't fantasy league....
.... and Steve Mills does not have the authority to make deals.
So trades can't be made in the NBA, like in fantasy leagues?
JohnStarksFan wrote:NardDogNation wrote:JohnStarksFan wrote:You STAY THE COURSE. You stay the course through this year, regardless of the outcome. You let Melo test free agency and don't bust your nut on him right away. You make a real plan for the future (without draft picks mind you). You use that plan to try to keep Melo here, but you don't do more than that. If he's going to test the waters, you can't stop it, let him do it. Who knows, maybe he'll decide to keep the extension. Let's say he does (I realize this probably won't happen). You'll be starting next season with your 4 highest salaries (Melo, STAT, Chandler, Bargs) for a total of 73.5 Mill. Yup 73.5 Mill for 4 guys. All off the books. If you're smart, you parlay 1 or 2 of those contracts into draft picks and exciting young players (true talent or seat fillers really), make a trade with one of your other guys who over produced for draft picks or more young talent, and start out the 2015-2016 season with somewhere near 45 million in cap space (without Melo). And you start over if need be. If you keep Melo, you need to keep the total payroll over the cap so when you resign him you use bird's rights, and get shot in the face with luxury tax. But you take the hit if this is one of your guys and he's committed.This is a nice fantasy right? I need a shot.
If you stay the course, you're looking at a middling team at best and risk the possibility of losing/wearing out your best player like we did with Allan Houston and Patrick Ewing. If this becomes a reality, we'd effectively be rehashing the past decade of ineptitude when we had no picks, nothing but washed up players signed to cap-killing deals and a lottery team. I'd rather rebuild from a position of strength, than wait and have our hands forced to do so.
What rebuild? With what pieces? Who are we getting if we swap out these guys right now?
I think Carmelo, Tyson, JR and Iman can get you pretty good value in return. A few of the other non-essentials could be packaged in a deal with those guys if necessary. Although, I don't think that is an imperative goal since their contracts expire in 2015 anyway, which make them valuable a year before it happens. I really think we could hit the ground running if we chose to blow things up, given the circumstances.
Blow it up. Talk with OKC about Tyson for a package of Perkins and multiple picks or to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan and picks. Try to trade Felton or Prigioni to OKC for Fisher and a 1st rounder; if not then see if we can get a 2nd rounder from them. Bargnani's been playing well, call every team in the league and see if someone's willing to give up some future assets for him.Most importantly, I guarantee that if we continue to play like this Melo will leave this Summer, probably for the Lakers. Talk to the Lakers about a trade package for Pau Gasol and then flip him to another team. Also talk to teams willing to make a splash and try to win now: New Orleans, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Washington and whoever else. Jump at the best offer of picks and players we get.
We have our own 1st rounder in 2015! Tank for the highest lottery pick possible and choose the best player available.
The Summer of 2015 go after our own big 3: Marc Gasol, Kevin Love, and Rajon Rondo. Build around Gasol, Love, Rondo, our 2015 lotto pick, Shumpert, and Hardaway (I guess).
skeng wrote:GoNyGoNyGo wrote:NardDogNation wrote:arkrud wrote:NardDogNation wrote:arkrud wrote:Rebuild. There is no other way any more for me.
If they will resign Melo for max this team for me is over.
So for me rebuild is the only option to continue following them.
But I would not bet on it - like 5% possibility.Would you be opposed to Melo getting the max if it was frontloaded, so that he'll make the lowest amount at the end of his contract?
As for what we should do, I'm definitely on the fence. I don't think Melo is the issue with our team but I'm also hesitant to extend him given the beating he has taken over the course of his career. I know most disagree but I think he'll start to break down in the next 2 seasons ala Allan Houston, which is unnerving at his price tag. Even if we do manage to build a more competitive and complimentary roster, it would be for naught if he can't even get on the court.
Another compelling issue is the fact that he can leave at seasons end for greener pastures. This roster we've assembled around him sucks and I think that he could be tempted to leave and join LeBron, wherever that is.
Melo can save this team... by leaving somewhere...
He is not the problem but he is not a solution.
He is just another way to hide the fundamental issues with how this organization run.
Isaih helps us last time to start looking in the mirror now it is Melos turn.Nothing good would come from simply letting Melo walk.
i agree. He should be traded.
I think most people would welcome the idea of trading Melo, problem is we're not trading him. I think the realistic outcome we can hope for would be a frontloaded deal as been mentioned by others. I would love for us to trade Melo, I just don't see it happening.
I definitely don't welcome the idea but think that it might be necessary. We don't seem to have what it takes to win, so why should we keep spinning the wheels? Melo is my favorite player in the NBA but I think a split would be best for both parties. If we send him as part of a package to a team like LAC, he could get to truely compete and we'd have a shot at Blake Griffin.
NardDogNation wrote:JohnStarksFan wrote:NardDogNation wrote:JohnStarksFan wrote:You STAY THE COURSE. You stay the course through this year, regardless of the outcome. You let Melo test free agency and don't bust your nut on him right away. You make a real plan for the future (without draft picks mind you). You use that plan to try to keep Melo here, but you don't do more than that. If he's going to test the waters, you can't stop it, let him do it. Who knows, maybe he'll decide to keep the extension. Let's say he does (I realize this probably won't happen). You'll be starting next season with your 4 highest salaries (Melo, STAT, Chandler, Bargs) for a total of 73.5 Mill. Yup 73.5 Mill for 4 guys. All off the books. If you're smart, you parlay 1 or 2 of those contracts into draft picks and exciting young players (true talent or seat fillers really), make a trade with one of your other guys who over produced for draft picks or more young talent, and start out the 2015-2016 season with somewhere near 45 million in cap space (without Melo). And you start over if need be. If you keep Melo, you need to keep the total payroll over the cap so when you resign him you use bird's rights, and get shot in the face with luxury tax. But you take the hit if this is one of your guys and he's committed.This is a nice fantasy right? I need a shot.
If you stay the course, you're looking at a middling team at best and risk the possibility of losing/wearing out your best player like we did with Allan Houston and Patrick Ewing. If this becomes a reality, we'd effectively be rehashing the past decade of ineptitude when we had no picks, nothing but washed up players signed to cap-killing deals and a lottery team. I'd rather rebuild from a position of strength, than wait and have our hands forced to do so.
What rebuild? With what pieces? Who are we getting if we swap out these guys right now?
I think Carmelo, Tyson, JR and Iman can get you pretty good value in return. A few of the other non-essentials could be packaged in a deal with those guys if necessary. Although, I don't think that is an imperative goal since their contracts expire in 2015 anyway, which make them valuable a year before it happens. I really think we could hit the ground running if we chose to blow things up, given the circumstances.
JR will net us nothing unless he breaks out, screws his wig on tight, and we can shop him to a contender who desperately needs a scorer before the trade deadline. He just signed a contract though, so any team would have to crazy to take on that nutbag after what has gone on since he signed his biggest deal.
Tyson and Iman are valuable, no doubt. Both are MORE valuable after this year. Why? Both have expiring contracts at higher dollar amounts. It is best to sit on them (aka stay the course) than to get low value assets in return for them right now through a fire sale. Any GM in the league, no matter how dumb, would have the upper hand right now given the climate.
As far as Melo is concerned, you don't shop him unless someone offers you something stupid and the year is a total bust by the all-star break. I mean bottom 5 teams in the league bust. Even then it isn't worth the effort. The returns won't be great and he can simply opt out at the end of the year.
Ultimately, it seems like you have the similar mentality to me, but just didn't see it. I'm saying stay the course for just now. Blowing it up now would just make things worse. It would be following in the mold of all the past blunders and make our future even bleaker than it looks now without draft picks.
VCoug wrote:Blow it up and rebuild. Here's what I posted in /r/NBA last night:Blow it up. Talk with OKC about Tyson for a package of Perkins and multiple picks or to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan and picks. Try to trade Felton or Prigioni to OKC for Fisher and a 1st rounder; if not then see if we can get a 2nd rounder from them. Bargnani's been playing well, call every team in the league and see if someone's willing to give up some future assets for him.Most importantly, I guarantee that if we continue to play like this Melo will leave this Summer, probably for the Lakers. Talk to the Lakers about a trade package for Pau Gasol and then flip him to another team. Also talk to teams willing to make a splash and try to win now: New Orleans, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Washington and whoever else. Jump at the best offer of picks and players we get.
We have our own 1st rounder in 2015! Tank for the highest lottery pick possible and choose the best player available.
The Summer of 2015 go after our own big 3: Marc Gasol, Kevin Love, and Rajon Rondo. Build around Gasol, Love, Rondo, our 2015 lotto pick, Shumpert, and Hardaway (I guess).
You're idea is sound GM work for a rebuild, problem is the Knicks front office and owner clearly do NOT value draft picks AT ALL.
JohnStarksFan wrote:VCoug wrote:Blow it up and rebuild. Here's what I posted in /r/NBA last night:Blow it up. Talk with OKC about Tyson for a package of Perkins and multiple picks or to the Clippers for DeAndre Jordan and picks. Try to trade Felton or Prigioni to OKC for Fisher and a 1st rounder; if not then see if we can get a 2nd rounder from them. Bargnani's been playing well, call every team in the league and see if someone's willing to give up some future assets for him.Most importantly, I guarantee that if we continue to play like this Melo will leave this Summer, probably for the Lakers. Talk to the Lakers about a trade package for Pau Gasol and then flip him to another team. Also talk to teams willing to make a splash and try to win now: New Orleans, Milwaukee, Cleveland, Washington and whoever else. Jump at the best offer of picks and players we get.
We have our own 1st rounder in 2015! Tank for the highest lottery pick possible and choose the best player available.
The Summer of 2015 go after our own big 3: Marc Gasol, Kevin Love, and Rajon Rondo. Build around Gasol, Love, Rondo, our 2015 lotto pick, Shumpert, and Hardaway (I guess).You're idea is sound GM work for a rebuild, problem is the Knicks front office and owner clearly do NOT value draft picks AT ALL.
Fair. I haven't had faith in the Knicks doing the right thing for nearly two decades now. Hopefully we can get Rondo if we're deadset against a rebuild.
tick tock tick tock
misterearl wrote:13knickscity wrote:
13 new players?Count the new names on the training camp roster
Thats every year, for every team in the nba.
Just admit you failed ridiculously on this point.
dk7th wrote:making a trade for carmelo anthony was a huge mistake and a waste of time.melo is what he is. A great scorer but there have been a lot of great scorers over the years. He isnt the type of player that can lead a team to a title. Its not his fault its just what he is. Players like lebron duncan durant dirk are rare. I just wish we could get one of thsoe great players once in a while. We had Ewing who nearly got us a title on a few occasionstick tock tick tock