Knicks · Offseason turn around strategy (page 1)

# 2 I believe we can use ending contracts + a 2018 number 1 pick to S+T with Toronto for Lowry (something like 5 and 45 but we'd need 3 way action to transact)

#3 Either S+T or use max MLE exception to sign Patty Mills

#4 Trade Shumpert to OKC for that pick in round 1 try and buy a second pick for round 2

#5 Shop Bargs Amare and Chandler as ending contracts BUT if we cant find a deal keep them and let them expire for 2015

#6 Resign Cole Aldrich to a 3year minimal expense contract i.e 3 years 3mm I think a new coach will get much more out of Cole than Woody has

# 7 Vet minimums--best players make team no more CAA crp Chris Smith. It might have changed our season if we kept Ike Diogu--one never knows what the +- wouldve been if we kept Diogu and traded for Lowry.

#8 New coach

At a minimum adding two high quality PG's will change the fortunes of this team. Adding Lowry+ Mills would change this team immensely. We would still need to peace together other particulars but the Melo Lowry Hardaway Mills combo would be explosive and wed be much better defensively in the back court adding the two. My emphasis this offseason is absolutely the backcourt

Also, I don't know if Lowry is the guy. If we're building around Melo we need a guy who everyone on the team, including Melo, will view as a leader. It's clear Melo needs a certain type of player(s) around him.

Woodson is an idiot for not giving Cole more burn. He plays his ass of and is productive when given minutes. The biggest run of the game against Dallas was when he was on the court when Tyson and Amare were in foul trouble. I'd give him 20 minutes/night. Can't be worse than Tyson, who has been an abomination on D.

Definitely think those huge expiring deals will be the best resources going forward.

JR/Hardaway are just way too similar in terms of what their strengths/weaknesses are, which is why I'd prefer JR be sent packing over Shump. If other Knicks players keep out-dumbing him and he plays more consistently the rest of the way he could be movable. It's not like Shump's value is soo much greater than his right now anyway.

- Have Melo sign for less than Max maybe a 5 year $90M deal or something a bit higher
- Trade Shump for a 2015 first
- ride out 2014 as best we can -- hopefully with a new coach and new focus (young players)
- Sit and wait ---- hopefully someone gives us something for Chandler at the trade deadline (pick & salary exemption) without taking back any future salary
- if we can't get anything (GOOD) for Tyson let him expire
- let Bargs/Stat anyone else who can --- expire
- In summer of 2015 Lebron opts out and joins Melo
- In summer of 2015 a 3rd star also signs in NY --- forming a new big 3

BRIGGS wrote:
Priority #1 Resign Melo for 5 years--hoping to keep it at 5 years 85mm

# 2 I believe we can use ending contracts + a 2018 number 1 pick to S+T with Toronto for Lowry (something like 5 and 45 but we'd need 3 way action to transact)

#3 Either S+T or use max MLE exception to sign Patty Mills

#4 Trade Shumpert to OKC for that pick in round 1 try and buy a second pick for round 2

#5 Shop Bargs Amare and Chandler as ending contracts BUT if we cant find a deal keep them and let them expire for 2015

#6 Resign Cole Aldrich to a 3year minimal expense contract i.e 3 years 3mm I think a new coach will get much more out of Cole than Woody has

# 7 Vet minimums--best players make team no more CAA crp Chris Smith. It might have changed our season if we kept Ike Diogu--one never knows what the +- wouldve been if we kept Diogu and traded for Lowry.

#8 New coach

At a minimum adding two high quality PG's will change the fortunes of this team. Adding Lowry+ Mills would change this team immensely. We would still need to peace together other particulars but the Melo Lowry Hardaway Mills combo would be explosive and wed be much better defensively in the back court adding the two. My emphasis this offseason is absolutely the backcourt

These are all good points. Even #4 -- I was leaning toward keeping Shump not too long ago and building him back up to respectability but when you really think about the year he's had -- how poorly he's looked/how badly he's regressed; how poor he is at taking the ball to the rim & finishing (something that just shouldn't be given his athleticism); how this team was starved for another player to step up all year long besides Melo--Shump never did, etc. -- I mean maybe you do take the low 1st round pick from OKC and call it day. I suddenly see limited ceiling here -- I don't think his career's over by any stretch but also don't see an amazing level of upside here anymore. He's replaceable.

I just don't know if I give up a 1st round pick for Kyle Lowry too. It's close--you can make a legit argument that he's worth that but I feel you can make an equally compelling argument that this is nothing more than a decent backup level PG having a career year. I'm all for Patty Mills, maybe as the lead guard and starter for next year (something that may need to be offered as part of the negotiation to bring him here--if it is, we'll need to honor it), with Felton (until we can move him--it's gonna be extra tough now with the off-the-court problems), Pablo and maybe another young halfway decent PG in the mix we could get cheap somewhere as an understudy -- see if Pierre Jackson's available. Kalin Lucas? Seth Curry? CrushAlot has brought up Jorge Gutierrez, not a bad call at all--that kid's a legit 6'3" and plays hard; maybe a PG we could score in the draft with the acquired pick for Shumpert, etc. I dunno -- I have no problem with Lowry, he's decent and he's having a good year, but I feel you draw a line in the sand with him as far as giving up a 1st rounder. Plus, not really feeling giving that guy close to $50mm either, I gotta be honest.

Also, I feel we may need a smart, savvy & respected GM in place with full autonomy in order to execute something close to the 8-step plan laid out above. That may need to come first before anything else.

That's still not going to compete with the Pacers and the Heat. I don't really want to trade draft picks to build mediocre teams. IMO, its go big or go home. I'd start planning for the 2016 offseason and getting good assets for that time. I make my team with 5 year contracts then. There's no need to give out anything other than Vet's Minimums to fill out this roster. Better off letting the young uns play next year in hopes that one of them turns the corner.

I'd be more likely to petition NYS and NYC for a tax exemption for basketball players so they can keep more of their money, and can accept less to play here. :P

EwingsGlass wrote:I don't see this plan as even making us a contender. You lost me at the draft pick for Lowry (and the 5/45). If I am going to stink, next year is the year I want to stink, cause at least I have my draft pick. I wouldn't make this band-aid type move.

Lowry/Mills/Felton
Hardaway
Smith
Melo
Aldrich/Tyler?

That's still not going to compete with the Pacers and the Heat. I don't really want to trade draft picks to build mediocre teams. IMO, its go big or go home. I'd start planning for the 2016 offseason and getting good assets for that time. I make my team with 5 year contracts then. There's no need to give out anything other than Vet's Minimums to fill out this roster. Better off letting the young uns play next year in hopes that one of them turns the corner.

I'd be more likely to petition NYS and NYC for a tax exemption for basketball players so they can keep more of their money, and can accept less to play here. :P

This is only based on Melo staying and the pick would be incentive for Tor to S+T him--because there is no other way to get him. The whole key is to really improve the guard position. Both Mills and Lowry combined would make us appreciably better. We would still have a slot for max cap room and our 2015 pick. We need more but adding Lowry and Mills would go a long way. I still dont forget we won 54 games with a better PG and a more mature frontline. Id love to somehow get Gasol as well but I dont see all 3.

Outside of those two things happening, this team will suck forever. We rebuilt for 10 years to win one round in the playoffs. The is no light at the end of the tunnel.

We could have moved Melo for Griffin but waited now he's morphed into a top #2 power foward
We could have traded Chandler for great assets now good luck
We could have moved Shumpert for Bledsoe

We haven't made one good trade in the last decade, we sign the wrong guys, hand out long term deals to guys that belong on one year deals and misuse provisions created strictly for us.

Worst trade of the offseason, which anyone with half a brain so as a disaster cost us another draft pick.

These guys suck, we are going on another coach. You're not coming here as a free agent when Dolan is your owner. Period.

BRIGGS wrote:
Priority #1 Resign Melo for 5 years--hoping to keep it at 5 years 85mm

# 2 I believe we can use ending contracts + a 2018 number 1 pick to S+T with Toronto for Lowry (something like 5 and 45 but we'd need 3 way action to transact)

#3 Either S+T or use max MLE exception to sign Patty Mills

#4 Trade Shumpert to OKC for that pick in round 1 try and buy a second pick for round 2

#5 Shop Bargs Amare and Chandler as ending contracts BUT if we cant find a deal keep them and let them expire for 2015

#6 Resign Cole Aldrich to a 3year minimal expense contract i.e 3 years 3mm I think a new coach will get much more out of Cole than Woody has

# 7 Vet minimums--best players make team no more CAA crp Chris Smith. It might have changed our season if we kept Ike Diogu--one never knows what the +- wouldve been if we kept Diogu and traded for Lowry.

#8 New coach

At a minimum adding two high quality PG's will change the fortunes of this team. Adding Lowry+ Mills would change this team immensely. We would still need to peace together other particulars but the Melo Lowry Hardaway Mills combo would be explosive and wed be much better defensively in the back court adding the two. My emphasis this offseason is absolutely the backcourt

first thing you do is to lowball the shit out of melo so that he is either forced to walk or agree to that figure-- the endgame here is to put this dude in his place and make him understand his actual value to a team that wants to win. offer should be 12 million and if he is insulted then buh-bye <meh>lo. he is not going to find many takers that are both (a)going to be in a contending position and (b) be able to pay melo much more than the knicks would offer. melo has less leverage than he thinks.

second priority is to bring in a real coach who is independent and will not tolerate coercion by dolan-- this coach should have a higher salary than melo so that he has the power to discipline melo just as he would any other player

third you get rid of bad eggs asap: jr smith tope the list, followed by bargnani. losers can't create or contribute to a winning culture and these guys are losers

fourth you focus on developing tyler, aldrich, hardaway

MS wrote:# 1 - Hope entire knicks team have unregistered weapons void all contracts
# 2 - Plant weapons at next JD and the straight shot performance, owner goes to jail team appoints new head of operations

Outside of those two things happening, this team will suck forever. We rebuilt for 10 years to win one round in the playoffs. The is no light at the end of the tunnel.

We could have moved Melo for Griffin but waited now he's morphed into a top #2 power foward
We could have traded Chandler for great assets now good luck
We could have moved Shumpert for Bledsoe

We haven't made one good trade in the last decade, we sign the wrong guys, hand out long term deals to guys that belong on one year deals and misuse provisions created strictly for us.

Worst trade of the offseason, which anyone with half a brain so as a disaster cost us another draft pick.

These guys suck, we are going on another coach. You're not coming here as a free agent when Dolan is your owner. Period.

Youve got a great point in this. At some point players will not look at NY as a destination. While money is money and someone will always take it--sans trade--will this place be a FA destination of choice with Dolan--answer is NO> Remember 2015 25 teams have maximum cap space. This team is DESPERATE to resign Melo BUT it might be the best for fans of NY and the Knicks for us to fall back real hard REAl HARD.

BRIGGS wrote:

MS wrote:# 1 - Hope entire knicks team have unregistered weapons void all contracts
# 2 - Plant weapons at next JD and the straight shot performance, owner goes to jail team appoints new head of operations

Outside of those two things happening, this team will suck forever. We rebuilt for 10 years to win one round in the playoffs. The is no light at the end of the tunnel.

We could have moved Melo for Griffin but waited now he's morphed into a top #2 power foward
We could have traded Chandler for great assets now good luck
We could have moved Shumpert for Bledsoe

We haven't made one good trade in the last decade, we sign the wrong guys, hand out long term deals to guys that belong on one year deals and misuse provisions created strictly for us.

Worst trade of the offseason, which anyone with half a brain so as a disaster cost us another draft pick.

These guys suck, we are going on another coach. You're not coming here as a free agent when Dolan is your owner. Period.

Youve got a great point in this. At some point players will not look at NY as a destination. While money is money and someone will always take it--sans trade--will this place be a FA destination of choice with Dolan--answer is NO> Remember 2015 25 teams have maximum cap space. This team is DESPERATE to resign Melo BUT it might be the best for fans of NY and the Knicks for us to fall back real hard REAl HARD.

If he leaves it really makes Dolan and MSG look terrible, especially because he's not Dwight or Lebron, he's a star but a notch below. So if Dolan cant even keep the 2nd tier guy here...

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

MS wrote:# 1 - Hope entire knicks team have unregistered weapons void all contracts
# 2 - Plant weapons at next JD and the straight shot performance, owner goes to jail team appoints new head of operations

Outside of those two things happening, this team will suck forever. We rebuilt for 10 years to win one round in the playoffs. The is no light at the end of the tunnel.

We could have moved Melo for Griffin but waited now he's morphed into a top #2 power foward
We could have traded Chandler for great assets now good luck
We could have moved Shumpert for Bledsoe

We haven't made one good trade in the last decade, we sign the wrong guys, hand out long term deals to guys that belong on one year deals and misuse provisions created strictly for us.

Worst trade of the offseason, which anyone with half a brain so as a disaster cost us another draft pick.

These guys suck, we are going on another coach. You're not coming here as a free agent when Dolan is your owner. Period.

Youve got a great point in this. At some point players will not look at NY as a destination. While money is money and someone will always take it--sans trade--will this place be a FA destination of choice with Dolan--answer is NO> Remember 2015 25 teams have maximum cap space. This team is DESPERATE to resign Melo BUT it might be the best for fans of NY and the Knicks for us to fall back real hard REAl HARD.

what would it accomplish? I hear and feel the frustration...

If he leaves it really makes Dolan and MSG look terrible, especially because he's not Dwight or Lebron, he's a star but a notch below. So if Dolan cant even keep the 2nd tier guy here...

the upside of Melo leaving is maybe, Dolan hits rock bottom. No addict cleans up their act until they hit bottom. And sometimes, even that doesn't work.

If Melo leaves, maybe this organization has no choice but to rebuild with a long term vision. They have to keep their 2015 pick, and that could be really good without Melo. Perhaps a franchise changing talent.

And then the key is maintaining control during 2015 FA - and not going long with someone like Amar'e - damaged goods/marginal talent, etc...

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

MS wrote:# 1 - Hope entire knicks team have unregistered weapons void all contracts
# 2 - Plant weapons at next JD and the straight shot performance, owner goes to jail team appoints new head of operations

Outside of those two things happening, this team will suck forever. We rebuilt for 10 years to win one round in the playoffs. The is no light at the end of the tunnel.

We could have moved Melo for Griffin but waited now he's morphed into a top #2 power foward
We could have traded Chandler for great assets now good luck
We could have moved Shumpert for Bledsoe

We haven't made one good trade in the last decade, we sign the wrong guys, hand out long term deals to guys that belong on one year deals and misuse provisions created strictly for us.

Worst trade of the offseason, which anyone with half a brain so as a disaster cost us another draft pick.

These guys suck, we are going on another coach. You're not coming here as a free agent when Dolan is your owner. Period.

Youve got a great point in this. At some point players will not look at NY as a destination. While money is money and someone will always take it--sans trade--will this place be a FA destination of choice with Dolan--answer is NO> Remember 2015 25 teams have maximum cap space. This team is DESPERATE to resign Melo BUT it might be the best for fans of NY and the Knicks for us to fall back real hard REAl HARD.

what would it accomplish? I hear and feel the frustration...

If he leaves it really makes Dolan and MSG look terrible, especially because he's not Dwight or Lebron, he's a star but a notch below. So if Dolan cant even keep the 2nd tier guy here...

the upside of Melo leaving is maybe, Dolan hits rock bottom. No addict cleans up their act until they hit bottom. And sometimes, even that doesn't work.

If Melo leaves, maybe this organization has no choice but to rebuild with a long term vision. They have to keep their 2015 pick, and that could be really good without Melo. Perhaps a franchise changing talent.

And then the key is maintaining control during 2015 FA - and not going long with someone like Amar'e - damaged goods/marginal talent, etc...

Agree about the pick, but the Knicks will use their cap space and overpay to get someone because they have too.. We will lose Melo and end up paying guys like Josh Smith and Brandon Jennings big money "because fans to pay to see cap space"