Knicks · Melo vs. Spree - Who was/is the better Knick? (page 4)

mreinman wrote:Found this very interesting (would love to find more data):

http://nykmistakes.blogspot.com/2010/11/...

How good were Houston and Sprewell?
These two were considered the catalysts for the Knicks in their late 90s run. Yet these two were still on the team during the beginning of the demise in the early 2000s. The Wins Produced numbers only go back to 2001 as of now, but lets look at these two and see what they were able to accomplish. Reminder: Average WP48 is .100

2001:
Allan Houston
.075 WP48
4.5 Wins Produced
2858 Minutes

Latrell Sprewell
.064 WP48
4.0 Wins Produced
3017 Minutes

Houston and Sprewell (8.5 Wins) Rest of Team (39 Wins)

In 2001 Sprewell and Houston were both below avergae performers but were able to contribute 8.5 wins because of the large number of minutes that they played. This story follows a similar pattern.

2002:
Allan Houston
.011 WP48
.7 Wins Produced
2914 Minutes

Latrell Sprewell
-.012 WP48
-.8 Wins Produced
3326 Minutes

Houston and Sprewell (-.1 Wins) Rest of Team (30.4 Wins)

In 2002 the all-star combo produced -.1 Wins. Yes, they actually were a negative on the Knicks season. It should be noted that the rest of the team performed remarkably similar to the previous year. The only difference being Marcus Camby only produced 4.4 Wins as opposed to the 16.9 that he did in 2001, he only played in 29 games in 2002.

2003:
Allan Houston
.042 WP48
2.7 Wins Produced
3108 Minutes

Latrell Sprewell
.052 WP48
3.1 Wins Produced
2859 Minutes

Houston and Sprewell (4.8 Wins Produced) Rest of Team (31.3 Wins Produced)

Again the team performed fairly similar to the way they had performed in the past, except this year Marcus Camby was no longer with the team and the subsequent performace dropped. This is a continual pattern of the Knicks having a fairly decent team around the alleged two superstarts, if these two were actual superstars, then the Knicks would have been a juggernaut. Unfortunately, these two were not very good players.

The reason that the there is a difference in perception and reality regarding these two is that both of them could score the ball. Unfortunately, that is all they could do as neither of them were very good rebounders, they both turned the ball over and neither created a lot of turnover via steals. However, since player performace is driven by points per game and nothing else, these two were thought of as great players. The numbers tell a different story and offer an explanation as to why the Knicks could never get over the hump, the team around Sprewell and Houston was a pretty decent one. Unfortunately the big two were not very big at all.

Nobody seriously considered Houston and Sprewell superstars. They were called all star caliber players. When Camby got hurt or we traded him for Dice, Kurt Thomas became our center. Kurt Thomas was a 6'9 power forward playing center, Othela Harrington and Clarence Weatherspoon were 6'7 power forwards who were nothing special and weren't starting caliber basketball players(Weatherspoon was past it). Sprewell was a natural SG playing the SF position. Ward and/or Eisley weren't starting caliber PGs. We had average backup calibre players starting around Houston and Spree, and an undersized front court. Our best ability with Sprewell and Houston was to push the tempo and run teams off the court to cover for the Spree playing out of position, but Harrington, Weatherspoon and Kurt Thomas weren't up tempo type of players. So not only was the surrounding talent average and undersized they also didn't fit the skill set of the best players.

ToddTT wrote:I'll take my Melo with the ferocity that Spree brought to the game seemingly every quarter.

Although Maybe if Melo just scowled more, my perception would be different. Kinda like pulling a Costanza.

I don't mind Melo smiling or scowling whenever. Whatever floats his boat. I would rather he be more efficient though.

I forgot they traded for a shot Mark Jackson who couldn't guard Pgs anymore.

I have to vote for the lesser desired Spree, apparently.

1) He stuck it to Michael Jordan, our nemesis, our obstacle to the championship, on his farewell tour and never let him have the last good (for Jordan) game against our Knicks by guarding MJ like a hawk on mice.
2) He was asked to play hard on PG, SG, SF, PF and never asked a question why (someone said he was a one way player? when were you born?). Carmelo wasn't, ever.
3) He was consistent on scoring but focused more on defense, which our Knicks lacked big time. Carmelo did decent defense from time to time.
4) He helped us overcome #8 seed and made us the FIRST team in NBA history having an 8th seed beat the 1st seed and got us to the NBA finals. Carmelo hasn't gotten us close to the finals as of yet.
5) He holds (now co-holds with Ben Gordon) an NBA record as a Knicks. Anthony doesn't have one.

What has Carmelo Anthony done for us lately?

Anthony has the NBA record for points in Madison Square Garden. That's what he has done lately.

Sambakick wrote:Anthony has the NBA record for points in Madison Square Garden. That's what he has done lately.

that's not NBA record.. that's MSG record.. and you still haven't countered my above points yet. If scoring one game is what determines greatness for you, then ok, you win.

JamesLin wrote:I have to vote for the lesser desired Spree, apparently.

1) He stuck it to Michael Jordan, our nemesis, our obstacle to the championship, on his farewell tour and never let him have the last good (for Jordan) game against our Knicks by guarding MJ like a hawk on mice.
2) He was asked to play hard on PG, SG, SF, PF and never asked a question why (someone said he was a one way player? when were you born?). Carmelo wasn't, ever.
3) He was consistent on scoring but focused more on defense, which our Knicks lacked big time. Carmelo did decent defense from time to time.
4) He helped us overcome #8 seed and made us the FIRST team in NBA history having an 8th seed beat the 1st seed and got us to the NBA finals. Carmelo hasn't gotten us close to the finals as of yet.
5) He holds (now co-holds with Ben Gordon) an NBA record as a Knicks. Anthony doesn't have one.

What has Carmelo Anthony done for us lately?

None of that is relevant to determining who the better player was/is....

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:I have to vote for the lesser desired Spree, apparently.

1) He stuck it to Michael Jordan, our nemesis, our obstacle to the championship, on his farewell tour and never let him have the last good (for Jordan) game against our Knicks by guarding MJ like a hawk on mice.
2) He was asked to play hard on PG, SG, SF, PF and never asked a question why (someone said he was a one way player? when were you born?). Carmelo wasn't, ever.
3) He was consistent on scoring but focused more on defense, which our Knicks lacked big time. Carmelo did decent defense from time to time.
4) He helped us overcome #8 seed and made us the FIRST team in NBA history having an 8th seed beat the 1st seed and got us to the NBA finals. Carmelo hasn't gotten us close to the finals as of yet.
5) He holds (now co-holds with Ben Gordon) an NBA record as a Knicks. Anthony doesn't have one.

What has Carmelo Anthony done for us lately?

None of that is relevant to determining who the better player was/is....

I.. I.. don't know how to say this without sounding condescending (I'm really not)... the topic was asking for who's the better Knicks. If help getting us to NBA finals (closest we've ever got to in over 40 years) is not better, nor breaking NBA record as a Knicks, then what is relevant to determine who the better Knicks was/is? I like a good argument followed by a certified statement/fact plz. :)

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Obviously Melo. I didn't think it was serious enough to merit a poll. I imagine the voting will be about 40 to 1

12-5.

Bonn, I guess you underestimated the emotional judgements of abused knick fans and anti Melo land.

Hey man, I'm not one of those EMOTIONAL diehard knicks fan!!!! Just a diehard knicks fan, that's all...

JamesLin wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Obviously Melo. I didn't think it was serious enough to merit a poll. I imagine the voting will be about 40 to 1

12-5.

Bonn, I guess you underestimated the emotional judgements of abused knick fans and anti Melo land.

Hey man, I'm not one of those EMOTIONAL diehard knicks fan!!!! Just a diehard knicks fan, that's all...

Do you just detest Melo because of Jeremy Lin?

mreinman wrote:
Do you just detest Melo because of Jeremy Lin?

No, I don't detest Melo. I think he's a great player. I'm just really into watching players that play defense well. Also, I could care less about Jeremy Lin even when Linsanity was happening. I just liked Jeremy because he made my decision a lot easier of which authenticated Knicks jersey to buy for Christmas without paying huge price for customized names, although I was never big on the number 17.

JamesLin wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

JamesLin wrote:I have to vote for the lesser desired Spree, apparently.

1) He stuck it to Michael Jordan, our nemesis, our obstacle to the championship, on his farewell tour and never let him have the last good (for Jordan) game against our Knicks by guarding MJ like a hawk on mice.
2) He was asked to play hard on PG, SG, SF, PF and never asked a question why (someone said he was a one way player? when were you born?). Carmelo wasn't, ever.
3) He was consistent on scoring but focused more on defense, which our Knicks lacked big time. Carmelo did decent defense from time to time.
4) He helped us overcome #8 seed and made us the FIRST team in NBA history having an 8th seed beat the 1st seed and got us to the NBA finals. Carmelo hasn't gotten us close to the finals as of yet.
5) He holds (now co-holds with Ben Gordon) an NBA record as a Knicks. Anthony doesn't have one.

What has Carmelo Anthony done for us lately?

None of that is relevant to determining who the better player was/is....

I.. I.. don't know how to say this without sounding condescending (I'm really not)... the topic was asking for who's the better Knicks. If help getting us to NBA finals (closest we've ever got to in over 40 years) is not better, nor breaking NBA record as a Knicks, then what is relevant to determine who the better Knicks was/is? I like a good argument followed by a certified statement/fact plz. :)

Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a shit if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record for assists in a game. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

NardDogNation wrote:Because stuff like that doesn't seem to be accurate or tangent to the conversation. You're lauding Sprewell for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it. Before New York, what was Sprewell? How well was he in getting the Warriors to the Finals? To the playoffs? Or even a winning record?

And who gives a shit if he holds an NBA record? Scott Skiles holds the record in assists. Does that mean he gets to be put in a conversation with John Stockton? If you really want to play the accolade game, Melo easily outshines Sprewell e.g. most points in a quarter (33), NBA scoring champion, more All-NBA recognitions, more all-star berths, etc. I just don't think that the line of reasoning that you're using holds any real weight in the kind of conversation that you're trying to have.

Ok, so which part is not accurate? Sprewell helped getting us to the NBA finals is not? I never said Sprewell one handed took us to the finals. So by your argument, if Carmelo took us to the finals, you're saying I will be lauding Melo for getting us to the Finals as if the 14 other players and coach had nothing to do with it? Who gives a shit if he holds an NBA record as a Knicks? Are you even a NBA fan then? So all your argument so far only states 'James, you're wrong, period and all records are useless in my book'. So, although I have a hard time even respecting you now as a somewhat basketball fan since you disregard NBA record or championship as crap, you still haven't counter argue what is relevant to who's a better Knicks player... so what is it then?

Camby had a much bigger impact in the 99 playoffs than any other Knick.

Swishfm3 wrote:Camby had a much bigger impact in the 99 playoffs than any other Knick.

+1

By a mile

mreinman wrote:

Swishfm3 wrote:Camby had a much bigger impact in the 99 playoffs than any other Knick.

+1

By a mile

Yeah, definitely

Spree, like Bernard King are emotional favorites for some knick fans. King was here a very brief time but had some nice moments. Spree was a polarizing figure whose "Choking" incidence vaulted him to a national audience. Public opinion on him ran among racial lines. He didn't just choke his coach, he stood up to "the man"! He was portrayed in the media with them using a video of a dunk, followed by a primal scream that portrayed him in a negative light.

In the end he sort of lived up to some of his stereotypes as he was often late to camp, missing from camp, would disappear, pretty much controversial broken hand, ended his relationship with three teams in a negative light, publicly picked his dog over his bitten daughter, got offended by a very good contract, and from what we have read is pretty much broke now.

But he was a "good team mate!" We only know that because players did not throw him under the bus. But knick media policy sort of prevents that. My take is if your late to camp and miss some preseaon because of it maybe thats not a good team mate? Everyone else seemed to manage to make it. Spree would get in his car and drive cross country and nobody knew where he was.

In my book spree was a free spirit and that made him fun. I enjoyed his play but he was over rated by knick fans because they were attracted to his anti establishment thing.

Melo is the star of this team and a star of the league because he can score. He has proven himself reliable and a consummate professional on and off the court as a knick. He has matured since his early Denver days. The winning or lack of it has much to do with "clumsy" roster construction.

Melo is the better knick. Spree was a great storyline. King was a great maturation story and he is in the Hall of fame. MElo will be, spree won't.

dk7th wrote:i like two-way players. sprewell was a two-way player and melo hasn't been. maybe that'll change.

i like efficiency and neither was efficient but at least sprewell did not take too many shots, and melo does.

i liked that sprewell was a great slasher, and the numbers support the fact that sprewell was excellent at maintaining offensive cohesion even if he was not an efficient scorer, or perhaps he is a net positive because of his ability to maintain if not created offensive cohesion. can't remember if he was any good at dishing off drives or he simply was good at maintaining a passing rhythm but the numbers don't lie.

lastly i like players who are in great shape and have high motors. sprewell was/had both and carmelo has yet to prove to me that he has/is either. we shall see i suppose.

basketball is a team sport so "better" leads us down a slippery slope, unless by better we mean "better teammate."

lastly, sprewell as a knick was integral to the knicks reaching the finals one year and the conference finals the next.

when melo can be an integral part of a conference finals team or a finals participant then he can be in the conversation.

until then... sprewell is the better knick!

good post... as I said, when you look at players outside of offense it opens your mind, good break down DK...

There are few exceptions where great offensive players who do little else trump two way players... but they have to be super elite scorers and super efficient.. Bernard king was one of them... here is a guy that shot over 50% for his career.. absolutely unstoppable... if anyone could justify 20+ shots per game, he is one.... LOL

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:i like two-way players. sprewell was a two-way player and melo hasn't been. maybe that'll change.

i like efficiency and neither was efficient but at least sprewell did not take too many shots, and melo does.

i liked that sprewell was a great slasher, and the numbers support the fact that sprewell was excellent at maintaining offensive cohesion even if he was not an efficient scorer, or perhaps he is a net positive because of his ability to maintain if not created offensive cohesion. can't remember if he was any good at dishing off drives or he simply was good at maintaining a passing rhythm but the numbers don't lie.

lastly i like players who are in great shape and have high motors. sprewell was/had both and carmelo has yet to prove to me that he has/is either. we shall see i suppose.

basketball is a team sport so "better" leads us down a slippery slope, unless by better we mean "better teammate."

lastly, sprewell as a knick was integral to the knicks reaching the finals one year and the conference finals the next.

when melo can be an integral part of a conference finals team or a finals participant then he can be in the conversation.

until then... sprewell is the better knick!

15.7 shots (anthony is 19.7) at that TS is beyond horrible. How would you like Felton to take 16 shots a game? Would we say "at least its not 20"?

"was a great slasher"? That all great if it turns into efficient play.

I "like" sprewell too because of his high motor but what I "like" does not necessarily translate into a great player. I like lil Nate too.

Barkley was fat and I liked him. I don't see that Anthony is in shape or out of shape, I do know that he is not a naturally chiseled dude. Many players are ripped and they suck. Its all about the play and almost everything is quantifiable. It was not back then and GM's were very ill informed.

I don't but this "conference finals" argument at all. How was his play during that playoff run? Not good. Bad players can be on good teams and vice versa.

Sprewell was not even close to melo's efficiency (and Melo's is not great).

Unfortunately, back in the old knick days, they did not rely or know about advanced stats and very much overrated many players because of this.

Please look at Sprewells playoff numbers before saying how integral he was. Forget about his almost negative Win Shares, take a look at his TS, FGA and PER! They are atrocious and his 1.6 : 1 usg : assist rate in the playoffs does not even come close to making up for it.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play...

well i started my response by saying i like two-way players and sprewell was that.

the larger issue is whether you regard sprewell as a negative-sum, zero-sum, or positive-sum player. i think he was a bit above zero-sum. melo so far as been closer to zero-sum.

lastly, the old walsh meme: a player is good at one price and bad at another.

check out how much we paid sprewell back then, adjust for inflation, and let me know who has proven to be the "gooder" player

Sprewell was a one way player not a two way.

If we are arguing price which where I thought this would end up if the argument went south , I have no idea. I would need an actuary to help figure that out. But that is not what this argument is about though we way overpaid Sprewell at 10 million per.

Btw, I just for the heck of it checked out Melo usg : ast rate in his playoff run with billups, it was 1.6 : 1 (sprewell never came anywhere close to the numbers that Melo had in that playoffs). And, it was 1.2 : 1 in his first year with the knicks. I am by no means that great at the advanced metrics but I am certainly trying to learn as much as I can.

And saying that Melo is zero sum is just wrong and way off base. I am quick to point out the weaknesses that hold him back from greatness but zero sum? C'mon. Let's keep it real.

its funny how you use words like preposterous and then make a post like that.. so are you telling us that sprewell was not a defensive player? you do know he made NBA all second team defense.. right? smh

let me ask you.. have you ever watched sprewell play?

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Sprewell and Melo are actually perfect compliments to each other. I wish they were able to play together.

We might have something close to that in Shumpert if we are patient and help him excel in his role

Shumpert has always been extremely and consistently inefficient so they are very similar. At least Shumpert is smart enough not to shoot 16 shots a game. Wouldn't that suck?

how could he get 16 shots when chuckmelo is jacking up 20+?

newyorknewyork wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:Sprewell and Melo are actually perfect compliments to each other. I wish they were able to play together.

We might have something close to that in Shumpert if we are patient and help him excel in his role

Shumpert has always been extremely and consistently inefficient so they are very similar. At least Shumpert is smart enough not to shoot 16 shots a game. Wouldn't that suck?

Maybe the emotion of the argument you had with TKF is getting the better of you because you are being overly critical of Spree. He guarded the opponents best perimeter players on a nightly bases. And pretty much acted as the play making PG for the team on offense due to the lack of play making capabilities from our other guards.

Spree cooked up Jamal Mashburn so badly in our playoff run vs the Heat they traded him for Eddie Jones.

he is letting his emotions take him to places that are beyond ridiculous. He just said sprewell wasn't a two way player. He clearly hasn't seen him play... And yes sprewell also ran PG for the knicks when they went with the big lineup... he also guarded SF's who were much bigger than he was.. the guy was truly an all around player..Kind of like a bigger Westbrook... I love those types of player swho play with endless energy and great intensity...