Knicks · If tonight's game doesn't tell you that Woodson needs to be let go.... (page 5)
smackeddog wrote:There is literally no one on these boards who thinks we should keep Woody next season- it's the only thing we've all agreed on since the boards began!
I think woodson is the only who thinks he should be the coach next season
knicks1248 wrote:smackeddog wrote:There is literally no one on these boards who thinks we should keep Woody next season- it's the only thing we've all agreed on since the boards began!I think woodson is the only who thinks he should be the coach next season
and isiah 
Nalod wrote:Been here for 8 years. 8 coach's.Call for a coach's head over and over.
Im gonna let PHil sort this one out.
At times in the past the reason for changing coaches has been for different reasons. It's not always been the case that this team has had a good roster and the only issue was the coach. It's not that this roster is great, but they surely should not be this bad. This team has gone on win streaks and losing streaks if not periods of mediocre BB since Woody has taken over. That kind of inconsistency tells me that he's not having a real effect on the team, but rather when they hit shots the team goes on win streaks and when it's close and they need a coach to get them thru, Woodson has failed over and over again.
Woodson has had more talent and options than any Knicks coach in the last 10 years. People talk about injuries and other issues but really there's been more depth during Woodson's tenure than any other recent coach. He's not getting the most out of his role players and really it's mostly Melo and recently STAT that are performing at a high level, but then Woody has been overusing Melo so much that he's awful in 4th qtrs since he's taken over. Melo's minutes make no sense. IMO Woodson is such a poor coach in so many areas that I think he clearly holds the team back. Even last year I think the team could actually have done better with a better coach.
nixluva wrote:Nalod wrote:Been here for 8 years. 8 coach's.Call for a coach's head over and over.
Im gonna let PHil sort this one out.
At times in the past the reason for changing coaches has been for different reasons. It's not always been the case that this team has had a good roster and the only issue was the coach. It's not that this roster is great, but they surely should not be this bad. This team has gone on win streaks and losing streaks if not periods of mediocre BB since Woody has taken over. That kind of inconsistency tells me that he's not having a real effect on the team, but rather when they hit shots the team goes on win streaks and when it's close and they need a coach to get them thru, Woodson has failed over and over again.Woodson has had more talent and options than any Knicks coach in the last 10 years. People talk about injuries and other issues but really there's been more depth during Woodson's tenure than any other recent coach. He's not getting the most out of his role players and really it's mostly Melo and recently STAT that are performing at a high level, but then Woody has been overusing Melo so much that he's awful in 4th qtrs since he's taken over. Melo's minutes make no sense. IMO Woodson is such a poor coach in so many areas that I think he clearly holds the team back. Even last year I think the team could actually have done better with a better coach.
Nix, just trust that Phil will make the right decision.
mreinman wrote:sorry about the triple post. Browser issue.
Just delete them
Dagger wrote:mreinman wrote:sorry about the triple post. Browser issue.Just delete them
Thanks! I did not even know that I could delete 
nixluva wrote:Nalod wrote:Been here for 8 years. 8 coach's.Call for a coach's head over and over.
Im gonna let PHil sort this one out.
At times in the past the reason for changing coaches has been for different reasons. It's not always been the case that this team has had a good roster and the only issue was the coach. It's not that this roster is great, but they surely should not be this bad. This team has gone on win streaks and losing streaks if not periods of mediocre BB since Woody has taken over. That kind of inconsistency tells me that he's not having a real effect on the team, but rather when they hit shots the team goes on win streaks and when it's close and they need a coach to get them thru, Woodson has failed over and over again.Woodson has had more talent and options than any Knicks coach in the last 10 years. People talk about injuries and other issues but really there's been more depth during Woodson's tenure than any other recent coach. He's not getting the most out of his role players and really it's mostly Melo and recently STAT that are performing at a high level, but then Woody has been overusing Melo so much that he's awful in 4th qtrs since he's taken over. Melo's minutes make no sense. IMO Woodson is such a poor coach in so many areas that I think he clearly holds the team back. Even last year I think the team could actually have done better with a better coach.
He keeps thinking that melo is a smart player and that you can just dump the ball in his hands and he's sure to make the right decision..After countless failing situations you would think he would do something different, but it doesn't.
he bench amare yesterday for a good portion of the 4th (for fckng shannon brown), his team once again relied on jump shots and on several last (2 minutes) possessions, melo missed wide open players..
How about jack pulling up and shooting from the same spot on the court on like 7 straight possesions.
His adjustment is to adujst to the other teams moves, but never have them adjust to his
mreinman wrote:Dagger wrote:mreinman wrote:sorry about the triple post. Browser issue.Just delete them
Thanks! I did not even know that I could delete
No problem, discovered the feature recently myself.
knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:Nalod wrote:Been here for 8 years. 8 coach's.Call for a coach's head over and over.
Im gonna let PHil sort this one out.
At times in the past the reason for changing coaches has been for different reasons. It's not always been the case that this team has had a good roster and the only issue was the coach. It's not that this roster is great, but they surely should not be this bad. This team has gone on win streaks and losing streaks if not periods of mediocre BB since Woody has taken over. That kind of inconsistency tells me that he's not having a real effect on the team, but rather when they hit shots the team goes on win streaks and when it's close and they need a coach to get them thru, Woodson has failed over and over again.Woodson has had more talent and options than any Knicks coach in the last 10 years. People talk about injuries and other issues but really there's been more depth during Woodson's tenure than any other recent coach. He's not getting the most out of his role players and really it's mostly Melo and recently STAT that are performing at a high level, but then Woody has been overusing Melo so much that he's awful in 4th qtrs since he's taken over. Melo's minutes make no sense. IMO Woodson is such a poor coach in so many areas that I think he clearly holds the team back. Even last year I think the team could actually have done better with a better coach.
He keeps thinking that melo is a smart player and that you can just dump the ball in his hands and he's sure to make the right decision..After countless failing situations you would think he would do something different, but it doesn't.
he bench amare yesterday for a good portion of the 4th (for fckng shannon brown), his team once again relied on jump shots and on several last (2 minutes) possessions, melo missed wide open players..
How about jack pulling up and shooting from the same spot on the court on like 7 straight possesions.
His adjustment is to adujst to the other teams moves, but never have them adjust to his
I partly agree with you.
However, do you think he dumps the ball into Melo and runs some type of backdoor cut or some other unique play and Melo just ignores it? Or like you say, does he just give it to Melo and tell him to just pound your way in?
Either way, this offense is kind of ugly and Melo is not passing enough out of the double teams. That is a big problem. Often when the double team comes, instead of passing right away he turns to the weak side and takes a contested shot. Phil needs to end that mentality if he will be keeping Melo.
mreinman wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:Nalod wrote:Been here for 8 years. 8 coach's.Call for a coach's head over and over.
Im gonna let PHil sort this one out.
At times in the past the reason for changing coaches has been for different reasons. It's not always been the case that this team has had a good roster and the only issue was the coach. It's not that this roster is great, but they surely should not be this bad. This team has gone on win streaks and losing streaks if not periods of mediocre BB since Woody has taken over. That kind of inconsistency tells me that he's not having a real effect on the team, but rather when they hit shots the team goes on win streaks and when it's close and they need a coach to get them thru, Woodson has failed over and over again.Woodson has had more talent and options than any Knicks coach in the last 10 years. People talk about injuries and other issues but really there's been more depth during Woodson's tenure than any other recent coach. He's not getting the most out of his role players and really it's mostly Melo and recently STAT that are performing at a high level, but then Woody has been overusing Melo so much that he's awful in 4th qtrs since he's taken over. Melo's minutes make no sense. IMO Woodson is such a poor coach in so many areas that I think he clearly holds the team back. Even last year I think the team could actually have done better with a better coach.
He keeps thinking that melo is a smart player and that you can just dump the ball in his hands and he's sure to make the right decision..After countless failing situations you would think he would do something different, but it doesn't.
he bench amare yesterday for a good portion of the 4th (for fckng shannon brown), his team once again relied on jump shots and on several last (2 minutes) possessions, melo missed wide open players..
How about jack pulling up and shooting from the same spot on the court on like 7 straight possesions.
His adjustment is to adujst to the other teams moves, but never have them adjust to his
I partly agree with you.
However, do you think he dumps the ball into Melo and runs some type of backdoor cut or some other unique play and Melo just ignores it? Or like you say, does he just give it to Melo and tell him to just pound your way in?
Either way, this offense is kind of ugly and Melo is not passing enough out of the double teams. That is a big problem. Often when the double team comes, instead of passing right away he turns to the weak side and takes a contested shot. Phil needs to end that mentality if he will be keeping Melo.
I think its both, but herb williams said at the half their plan is to give it to melo a clear out and let him do what he does best..
I never seen jordan, LBj and kobe turn the ball over in the clutch as much as melo..Bad passes(bail out) charging fouls (forcing the issue) travling (hesistant/undecided)
Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?
Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!
Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.
Nalod wrote:Woodson did not miss 10 of his last 12 shots did he?Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?
Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!
Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.
You're out of your mind Nalod. This isn't a question of whether or not to keep a mediocre coach. Woodson has committed so many fireable offenses this year it's just safe to say that you will never place blame for anything on the coach, even the most blatant mismanagement, so I'm not even going to bother to try and convince you.
Dagger wrote:Nalod wrote:Woodson did not miss 10 of his last 12 shots did he?Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?
Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!
Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.
You're out of your mind Nalod. This isn't a question of whether or not to keep a mediocre coach. Woodson has committed so many fireable offenses this year it's just safe to say that you will never place blame for anything on the coach, even the most blatant mismanagement, so I'm not even going to bother to try and convince you.
I don't think some fans realize that good coaches help teach their players how to get easy baskets and Woody allows his team to rely on mostly jumpers, even tho he doesn't have too.
Yes we know Felton is bad but there are other options he could try changing the defense in order to give the other team a different look. He could call for more full court pressure to slow them down or traps to get the ball out of the PG's hands. There are so many tactics coaches use including bringing a defensive reserve off the bench for a bit. Woody is too slow to adjust and often doesn't adjust at all or makes the wrong move at together.
nixluva wrote:Dagger wrote:Nalod wrote:Woodson did not miss 10 of his last 12 shots did he?Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?
Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!
Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.
You're out of your mind Nalod. This isn't a question of whether or not to keep a mediocre coach. Woodson has committed so many fireable offenses this year it's just safe to say that you will never place blame for anything on the coach, even the most blatant mismanagement, so I'm not even going to bother to try and convince you.
I don't think some fans realize that good coaches help teach their players how to get easy baskets and Woody allows his team to rely on mostly jumpers, even tho he doesn't have too.
Yet Melo is playing more efficiently under Woodson than anyone else (including MDA!)
Dagger wrote:Nalod wrote:Woodson did not miss 10 of his last 12 shots did he?Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?
Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!
Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.
You're out of your mind Nalod. This isn't a question of whether or not to keep a mediocre coach.
That will apply to the coach of every .400 team if you microanalyze every decision he makes.
Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Dagger wrote:Nalod wrote:Woodson did not miss 10 of his last 12 shots did he?Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?
Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!
Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.
You're out of your mind Nalod. This isn't a question of whether or not to keep a mediocre coach. Woodson has committed so many fireable offenses this year it's just safe to say that you will never place blame for anything on the coach, even the most blatant mismanagement, so I'm not even going to bother to try and convince you.
I don't think some fans realize that good coaches help teach their players how to get easy baskets and Woody allows his team to rely on mostly jumpers, even tho he doesn't have too.
Yet Melo is playing more efficiently under Woodson than anyone else (including MDA!)
Well ... the first season (after the trade) was his most efficient.
His second year he passed more but his shot was not falling.
His shot happens to be better now. He certainly is not passing more. But, when you shoot 41 percent from 3, it certainly helps your efficiency (regardless if some posters understand this or not)
mreinman wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Dagger wrote:Nalod wrote:Woodson did not miss 10 of his last 12 shots did he?Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?
Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!
Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.
You're out of your mind Nalod. This isn't a question of whether or not to keep a mediocre coach. Woodson has committed so many fireable offenses this year it's just safe to say that you will never place blame for anything on the coach, even the most blatant mismanagement, so I'm not even going to bother to try and convince you.
I don't think some fans realize that good coaches help teach their players how to get easy baskets and Woody allows his team to rely on mostly jumpers, even tho he doesn't have too.
Yet Melo is playing more efficiently under Woodson than anyone else (including MDA!)Well ... the first season (after the trade) was his most efficient.
His second year he passed more but his shot was not falling.
His shot happens to be better now. He certainly is not passing more. But, when you shoot 41 percent from 3, it certainly helps your efficiency (regardless if some posters understand this or not)
You're talking about one third of one season? I think a more reasonable assessment would be to use the biggest sample available - just look at his total TS% for all games played under each coach. I'd also looking at the turnover rate or assist:turnover ratio. Most people don't mean that when they say "efficiency" but you are hurting your team's offensive efficiency when you turn the ball over.
Bonn1997 wrote:mreinman wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Dagger wrote:Nalod wrote:Woodson did not miss 10 of his last 12 shots did he?Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?
Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!
Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.
You're out of your mind Nalod. This isn't a question of whether or not to keep a mediocre coach. Woodson has committed so many fireable offenses this year it's just safe to say that you will never place blame for anything on the coach, even the most blatant mismanagement, so I'm not even going to bother to try and convince you.
I don't think some fans realize that good coaches help teach their players how to get easy baskets and Woody allows his team to rely on mostly jumpers, even tho he doesn't have too.
Yet Melo is playing more efficiently under Woodson than anyone else (including MDA!)Well ... the first season (after the trade) was his most efficient.
His second year he passed more but his shot was not falling.
His shot happens to be better now. He certainly is not passing more. But, when you shoot 41 percent from 3, it certainly helps your efficiency (regardless if some posters understand this or not)
You're talking about one third of one season? I think a more reasonable assessment would be to use the biggest sample available - just look at his total TS% for all games played under each coach. I'd also looking at the turnover rate or assist:turnover ratio. Most people don't mean that when they say "efficiency" but you are hurting your team's offensive efficiency when you turn the ball over.
I am pretty sure that his turnover to assist ratio was better under MDA.
The only thing he is actually doing better for woody is actually hitting shots.
His shots were just not falling in the season that MDA was fired (11-12).
I can't give a coach credit for a players shot falling. But MDA certainly had him passing better.
mreinman wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:mreinman wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:nixluva wrote:Dagger wrote:Nalod wrote:Woodson did not miss 10 of his last 12 shots did he?Woodson did not start 3rd quarter lethargic did they?
Our back court is really bad fellas. Really bad! Sorry, im not just laying this on the coach and thinking Woodsons removal will produce magical results!
Phil Will sort this roster out and likely put a new man in. If he thinks woody is his man, im ok with that too.
You're out of your mind Nalod. This isn't a question of whether or not to keep a mediocre coach. Woodson has committed so many fireable offenses this year it's just safe to say that you will never place blame for anything on the coach, even the most blatant mismanagement, so I'm not even going to bother to try and convince you.
I don't think some fans realize that good coaches help teach their players how to get easy baskets and Woody allows his team to rely on mostly jumpers, even tho he doesn't have too.
Yet Melo is playing more efficiently under Woodson than anyone else (including MDA!)Well ... the first season (after the trade) was his most efficient.
His second year he passed more but his shot was not falling.
His shot happens to be better now. He certainly is not passing more. But, when you shoot 41 percent from 3, it certainly helps your efficiency (regardless if some posters understand this or not)
You're talking about one third of one season? I think a more reasonable assessment would be to use the biggest sample available - just look at his total TS% for all games played under each coach. I'd also looking at the turnover rate or assist:turnover ratio. Most people don't mean that when they say "efficiency" but you are hurting your team's offensive efficiency when you turn the ball over.I am pretty sure that his turnover to assist ratio was better under MDA.
The only thing he is actually doing better for woody is actually hitting shots.
His shots were just not falling in the season that MDA was fired (11-12).
I can't give a coach credit for a players shot falling. But MDA certainly had him passing better.
For that one half season where Woodson got him to work on passing, the ratio was better. I think he has the best combination of shooting efficiency and low turnovers he's ever had under Woodson though.
Again, I'm really just playing Devil's advocate. I think the net impact of any coach is going to be negligible over the long-run, and usually when people are blaming the coach, it really just means they overrated the roster.