I'm just wondering, having played the "what if game". I find it hard to believe that we couldn't have gotten Millsap for the same package we gave up for Bargnani, with some minor tweakings involved (we probably would've had to give up Shumpert as well). The deal could've easily been expanded to include Mo Williams' salary, who was with the Jazz at the time. I think had that unfolded, the two would've been the no.2 and no.3 best players in the league.
NardDogNation wrote:I'm just wondering, having played the "what if game". I find it hard to believe that we couldn't have gotten Millsap for the same package we gave up for Bargnani, with some minor tweakings involved (we probably would've had to give up Shumpert as well). The deal could've easily been expanded to include Mo Williams' salary, who was with the Jazz at the time.
I would love to hear some on this board spin this for the knicks. Milsap is a good players.
mreinman wrote:NardDogNation wrote:I'm just wondering, having played the "what if game". I find it hard to believe that we couldn't have gotten Millsap for the same package we gave up for Bargnani, with some minor tweakings involved (we probably would've had to give up Shumpert as well). The deal could've easily been expanded to include Mo Williams' salary, who was with the Jazz at the time.
I would love to hear some on this board spin this for the knicks. Milsap is a good players.
You just prempted the spin! Pre-spin! Nice!
martin wrote:mreinman wrote:NardDogNation wrote:I'm just wondering, having played the "what if game". I find it hard to believe that we couldn't have gotten Millsap for the same package we gave up for Bargnani, with some minor tweakings involved (we probably would've had to give up Shumpert as well). The deal could've easily been expanded to include Mo Williams' salary, who was with the Jazz at the time.
I would love to hear some on this board spin this for the knicks. Milsap is a good players.
You just prempted the spin! Pre-spin! Nice!
that was my intention 
He was just mentioned in another thread last week and posters were dinging him for Atlanta's failures.
The knicks could not have gotten either player unless it was at the deadline of the last season because teams over the cap can't receive players in a S&T. However, if those players were substituted then the knicks would have had a very good season.
I actually think the Knicks could compete in the east next year minus Bargs and Felton getting a lot of playing time.
mreinman wrote:martin wrote:mreinman wrote:NardDogNation wrote:I'm just wondering, having played the "what if game". I find it hard to believe that we couldn't have gotten Millsap for the same package we gave up for Bargnani, with some minor tweakings involved (we probably would've had to give up Shumpert as well). The deal could've easily been expanded to include Mo Williams' salary, who was with the Jazz at the time.
I would love to hear some on this board spin this for the knicks. Milsap is a good players.
You just prempted the spin! Pre-spin! Nice!
that was my intention
He was just mentioned in another thread last week and posters were dinging him for Atlanta's failures.
I felt like I read some of that and thought it was ridiculous. The one dude (who I can't remember) was faulting Millsap for the Hawks having a bad record while singing Melo's praises and overlooking the fact that the Hawks have been better. Regardless of what was said, Millsap is a really good player. This is the first time I've had the opportunity to see him regularly since the Deron Williams-Carlos Boozer days and he has come a long way since then. I wonder how much of it is of his own merit and how much of it is Budenholzer being a very good coach.
yellowboy90 wrote:The knicks could not have gotten either player unless it was at the deadline of the last season because teams over the cap can't receive players in a S&T. However, if those players were substituted then the knicks would have had a very good season.I actually think the Knicks could compete in the east next year minus Bargs and Felton getting a lot of playing time.
You mean over the luxury tax, right? Because the Clippers were definitely over the cap and most likely above the $70 million tax threshold but still received JJ Redick in a sign and trade from the Bucks. There are so many hitches in this new CBA that maybe there is something we're missing. Either way, couldn't we just have quickly dumped Bargnani on a team with cap space and then use the trade exception plus Iman for Millsap and Mo?
As for competing next year, I just don't see it. Melo is really the only player of any consequence that could get us any value in return. If we're not trading him and rebuilding, there isn't much here. Every offseason, there are usually talented guys that can be had without surrendering assets (e.g. Paul Millsap, Mo Williams, Thomas Robinson) but that requires ingenuity that our front office has never possessed; case and point, Ramon Sessions should've been acquired at the deadline (he's killing it right now and the Bobcats gave him up for next to nothing). Time will tell but not only do our guys suck, I don't even think they fit the triangle (especially Tyson Chandler).
The Clippers only had 60 million on the books when they acquired Redick and Dudley. They weren't close to the tax line.
http://www.sbnation.com/2013/7/2/4488366/suns-clippers-bucks-trade-eric-bledsoe-jj-redick-jared-dudley
This article talks about it being a financial win for the Clippers, who saved money and preserved their MLE in the deal. Remember, they gave up Caron Butler and Eric Bledsoe and actually saved money here.
The current rule is that a taxpayer can't receive a player in a sign and trade unless they take less salary than they give up.
NardDogNation wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:The knicks could not have gotten either player unless it was at the deadline of the last season because teams over the cap can't receive players in a S&T. However, if those players were substituted then the knicks would have had a very good season.I actually think the Knicks could compete in the east next year minus Bargs and Felton getting a lot of playing time.
You mean over the luxury tax, right? Because the Clippers were definitely over the cap and most likely above the $70 million tax threshold but still received JJ Redick in a sign and trade from the Bucks. There are so many hitches in this new CBA that maybe there is something we're missing. Either way, couldn't we just have quickly dumped Bargnani on a team with cap space and then use the trade exception plus Iman for Millsap and Mo?
As for competing next year, I just don't see it. Melo is really the only player of any consequence that could get us any value in return. If we're not trading him and rebuilding, there isn't much here. Every offseason, there are usually talented guys that can be had without surrendering assets (e.g. Paul Millsap, Mo Williams, Thomas Robinson) but that requires ingenuity that our front office has never possessed; case and point, Ramon Sessions should've been acquired at the deadline (he's killing it right now and the Bobcats gave him up for next to nothing). Time will tell but not only do our guys suck, I don't even think they fit the triangle (especially Tyson Chandler).
The Knicks made a lot of the same types of moves last offseason as the year before, but the results were entirely different. They got Kidd, Pablo, Rasheed Wallace, Kenyon Martin and Chris Copeland to succeeed. After last year, they went for Beno, Metta World Peace and Bargnani and none of those moves worked out at all (other than making room after next year).
The Knicks have some value that they can move, but not a lot. Figuring out what happens with Melo has to come first because that's going to determine the direction that the team goes. A late first was on the table for Shumpert this year and Chandler can also fetch value from a contender so there's extra stuff on the table.
GMs (or the "market") really misjudged Millsap's value. It's hard to believe he got only 2 yrs, $9.5 mil per
Bonn1997 wrote:GMs (or the "market") really misjudged Millsap's value. It's hard to believe he got only 2 yrs, $9.5 mil per
did they really? He is not a young guy and won't carry your team but I will agree that teams on the verge should have went after him but I think a lot of those teams already had players at his position that they valued. One could argue his shooting efficiency is on the downhill but maybe it would be different if he wasn't a focal point of the offense like the last 3 years.
If Melo stays I would see if ATL wanted to move him in a salary dump to get Korver and teague off the books. I think Korver might be another Mike Miller(better overall player) who is great off the bench but can't stay on the floor due to Back problems. Korver is only a year younger than Miller but has been healthier so far up until this year. Anyway, ATL is really in no mans land and may want to dumb long term salary and tank next year. I think age and salary could give the knicks a chance to steal two good players.
They undervalued him more in the duration of the contract. He should have been able to get at least 4 years, 35 mil with a player option (rather than the contract just ending) after the second year.
Put it this way, would you rather have 3 Paul Millsaps or Melo? If we had 3 Millsaps, do you think we'd still be a .400 team?
The shooting efficiency is probably just random variation. His 3s are better and 2s are worse this year.
NardDogNation wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:The knicks could not have gotten either player unless it was at the deadline of the last season because teams over the cap can't receive players in a S&T. However, if those players were substituted then the knicks would have had a very good season.I actually think the Knicks could compete in the east next year minus Bargs and Felton getting a lot of playing time.
You mean over the luxury tax, right? Because the Clippers were definitely over the cap and most likely above the $70 million tax threshold but still received JJ Redick in a sign and trade from the Bucks. There are so many hitches in this new CBA that maybe there is something we're missing. Either way, couldn't we just have quickly dumped Bargnani on a team with cap space and then use the trade exception plus Iman for Millsap and Mo?
As for competing next year, I just don't see it. Melo is really the only player of any consequence that could get us any value in return. If we're not trading him and rebuilding, there isn't much here. Every offseason, there are usually talented guys that can be had without surrendering assets (e.g. Paul Millsap, Mo Williams, Thomas Robinson) but that requires ingenuity that our front office has never possessed; case and point, Ramon Sessions should've been acquired at the deadline (he's killing it right now and the Bobcats gave him up for next to nothing). Time will tell but not only do our guys suck, I don't even think they fit the triangle (especially Tyson Chandler).
You're right Nard. Teams over the luxury tax apron, which is $4M over the luxury tax, can't receive players in a sign and trade.
What if Lin was matched
What if Iman would have never got hurt
What if Melo was signed instead of traded
What if we kept Wilson Chandler, Gallo, MosGov, 2 GS 2nd rounders, our current 1st rounder this summer
What if Felton was traded at his peak after his first year playing with Dantoni while he was still in his prime when Portland traded Andre Miller and a 1st rounder for him
His value went up or down after going to Denver, playing behind Lawson but George Karl's Nuggets had like 7-8 players consistently getting double doubles with the W's
What if we CP3, Dwight Howard, Harden were interested in forcing their way to NYK's on top of all this as we would have had the assets to and salary to acquire them with Melo
It is a lot of What if's that would have changed a lot of things without even adding in David Lee, Nate, Zach Randolph, Jamal Crawford, Tom Tibs, Bynum, reversing the McDyess trade, reversing the Eddy trade...
Milsap doesn't average 30pts a game therefore he is useless and has no market value
Bonn1997 wrote:They undervalued him more in the duration of the contract. He should have been able to get at least 4 years, 35 mil with a player option (rather than the contract just ending) after the second year.
Put it this way, would you rather have 3 Paul Millsaps or Melo? If we had 3 Millsaps, do you think we'd still be a .400 team?
The shooting efficiency is probably just random variation. His 3s are better and 2s are worse this year.
Why would anyone want 3 PFs at the same price. Also, his 2pt% has gone down ever year the last 4 years and his TS has been at 55 or below the last 3 years. He is going down in his prime.
Say you do have 3 Millsaps with Felton and Bargs sandwiching them, what then. Also, why 3 wouldn't it be 2 given the money? Is 21M that much more than 19M?
gunsnewing wrote:Millsap doesn't average 30pts a game therefore he is useless and has no market value
Only one person in the league avg. 30 pts a game so I guess Durant is the "Highlander" when it comes to value.
yellowboy90 wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:They undervalued him more in the duration of the contract. He should have been able to get at least 4 years, 35 mil with a player option (rather than the contract just ending) after the second year.
Put it this way, would you rather have 3 Paul Millsaps or Melo? If we had 3 Millsaps, do you think we'd still be a .400 team?
The shooting efficiency is probably just random variation. His 3s are better and 2s are worse this year.
Why would anyone want 3 PFs at the same price. Also, his 2pt% has gone down ever year the last 4 years and his TS has been at 55 or below the last 3 years. He is going down in his prime.
Say you do have 3 Millsaps with Felton and Bargs sandwiching them, what then. Also, why 3 wouldn't it be 2 given the money? Is 21M that much more than 19M?
I highly doubt he literally meant "3 Millsaps". He was most likely referring to 3 players that are of the caliber of Millsap. Even so, I think you forget that Millsap is an excellent shooter and has played the SF, PF and C at various points in his career. Theoretically (if he could be cloned) we could start them at those 3 spots and do pretty well for ourselves; if not on the court, in selling the story rights to Disney for an awesome movie.
yellowboy90 wrote:gunsnewing wrote:Millsap doesn't average 30pts a game therefore he is useless and has no market value
Only one person in the league avg. 30 pts a game so I guess Durant is the "Highlander" when it comes to value.
I'm pretty sure he was being sarcastic.
VCoug wrote:NardDogNation wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:The knicks could not have gotten either player unless it was at the deadline of the last season because teams over the cap can't receive players in a S&T. However, if those players were substituted then the knicks would have had a very good season.I actually think the Knicks could compete in the east next year minus Bargs and Felton getting a lot of playing time.
You mean over the luxury tax, right? Because the Clippers were definitely over the cap and most likely above the $70 million tax threshold but still received JJ Redick in a sign and trade from the Bucks. There are so many hitches in this new CBA that maybe there is something we're missing. Either way, couldn't we just have quickly dumped Bargnani on a team with cap space and then use the trade exception plus Iman for Millsap and Mo?
As for competing next year, I just don't see it. Melo is really the only player of any consequence that could get us any value in return. If we're not trading him and rebuilding, there isn't much here. Every offseason, there are usually talented guys that can be had without surrendering assets (e.g. Paul Millsap, Mo Williams, Thomas Robinson) but that requires ingenuity that our front office has never possessed; case and point, Ramon Sessions should've been acquired at the deadline (he's killing it right now and the Bobcats gave him up for next to nothing). Time will tell but not only do our guys suck, I don't even think they fit the triangle (especially Tyson Chandler).
You're right Nard. Teams over the luxury tax apron, which is $4M over the luxury tax, can't receive players in a sign and trade.
Gotcha, thanks. Is it me or is there far more detail involved with the new CBA? In years past, I had it down to the "T" but I'm having a hard time grasping the finer details of this new one.
That being said, could we have theoretically arranged a 3 team deal that involved shedding Camby and Novak's contract, while finding a third team with cap space (like the Hawks) to take Bargnani with the intention of creating a massive trade exception to get Millsap and Mo? Would we still have been able to keep JR's rights?
