Knicks · Was Carmelo trade awash? (page 8)

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:That's the problem and that's why the Knicks and their fans are so impatient. Unreasonable expectations every year.

I blame he Knicks more because if they came out and said we are going to suck for a year but rebuild the right way fans would buy in and not boo after every loss. The Garden being located in the heart of manhattan pretty much solidifies that profit will be made and give fans exciting young hungry players and will even watch on msg. Would love to see msg ratings this year. I know for a fact one on watches pre and post game anymore. Guys like Hahn and Wally suffer. And you can tell from the tone in their voices after inexplicable losses

Yet our impatient fan-gm's are already calling for the knicks to make moves for the likes of Josh Smith and Tyreke Evans.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:That's the problem and that's why the Knicks and their fans are so impatient. Unreasonable expectations every year.

I blame he Knicks more because if they came out and said we are going to suck for a year but rebuild the right way fans would buy in and not boo after every loss. The Garden being located in the heart of manhattan pretty much solidifies that profit will be made and give fans exciting young hungry players and will even watch on msg. Would love to see msg ratings this year. I know for a fact one on watches pre and post game anymore. Guys like Hahn and Wally suffer. And you can tell from the tone in their voices after inexplicable losses

Yet our impatient fan-gm's are already calling for the knicks to make moves for the likes of Josh Smith and Tyreke Evans.

We need an owner who will protect us from our impatient fans.

We need the Mara's to buy MSG.

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:please.. Denver got nothing. They are going to spend the next 3 years trying to get a player good enough (cough cough) to get them in the playoffs every year. Mosgov is nice, and just an example of what happens when you keep and develop young players. Gallo is garbage and who knows if he's ever a regular NBA player any more. Who else? Will Chandler? Anthony Randolph? Please... Denver is a hodge podge of middle of the road NBA role players. But yea.. they do have a lot of them.

But we can always expect fair and unbiased observations from TFK when it comes to the Melo trade, so this last post makes it look like a win.

I look at it this way. Denver's best player was injured, Gallinari and still they have a better record than the Knicks as of the writing of this post. Gallinari was out for the entire season.

The point you seem to be missing is Denver didnt make that trade for the present day. They made it for the future. Denver has a possible top 12 first round pick this year. Mosgov's raw talent is starting to develop into what could be a special player in this league and Gallinari if he gets back from injury could lead this team into the playoffs next year. Oh and they have miles of cap room because they have 3 expiring players.

This trade wasnt about trying to catch lightning in a bottle. It was about potential... (edited to add this)atleast it wasnt for the Nuggets.

Right... so 3 years later they are hoping 1) a guy whos always injured gets healthy 2) the next guy they draft will be a star 3) 3 years later they have cap flexibility and can chase who? Lebron?

WOW... we have created more Knick fans.

I can see one thing... Nuggets fans have learned to know what its like to follow the Knicks ;)

Seems to me trade hasnt helped either team. Nuggets are hoping 3 years later that one of these assets they aquired turns into something useful. Knicks in those same 3 years will have 3 coaches and 3 GMs so they havent exactly had much of a plan either.

Yea, but I would rather be in the Denver nuggets position. The future looks bright for them. The knicks... yea, not so much.

Whats the great position they are in? Who is the franchise talent that is leading them? Who are they building around? They have nice role players and no stars. We have a star and no role players. Seems like we just swapped problems.

With Melo the Nugs were 2nd tier. Good enough to get around 50 wins every year but not good enough to beat the elite team in the West and compete for a title. Now they are a lottery team stacked with overpaid role players and pining for a impact draft to bail them out of years of mediocrity. Who is the player if your a Nugs fan that has you excited about the future?

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:please.. Denver got nothing. They are going to spend the next 3 years trying to get a player good enough (cough cough) to get them in the playoffs every year. Mosgov is nice, and just an example of what happens when you keep and develop young players. Gallo is garbage and who knows if he's ever a regular NBA player any more. Who else? Will Chandler? Anthony Randolph? Please... Denver is a hodge podge of middle of the road NBA role players. But yea.. they do have a lot of them.

But we can always expect fair and unbiased observations from TFK when it comes to the Melo trade, so this last post makes it look like a win.

I look at it this way. Denver's best player was injured, Gallinari and still they have a better record than the Knicks as of the writing of this post. Gallinari was out for the entire season.

The point you seem to be missing is Denver didnt make that trade for the present day. They made it for the future. Denver has a possible top 12 first round pick this year. Mosgov's raw talent is starting to develop into what could be a special player in this league and Gallinari if he gets back from injury could lead this team into the playoffs next year. Oh and they have miles of cap room because they have 3 expiring players.

This trade wasnt about trying to catch lightning in a bottle. It was about potential... (edited to add this)atleast it wasnt for the Nuggets.

bingo!!

ADD To that they didn't have Mcgee all year and lawson missed a lot of games..

Denver will be fine, they got what they wanted and more out of this deal, especially when you consider the pick this year..

djsunyc wrote:there is such a thing as organic growth.

you keep a group of young players together and they will get better. they get better as players. they build chemistry as they learn to play together and the coach knows who can do what.

then you can complement them with some vets or bench guys and the team will organically grow.

problem is that everyone this forum is playing the extreme game - either be crap and tank or get your stars now and win it all. doesn't work that way.

even having a team continually get to the 2nd round is a very difficult thing to do.

expectations need to be lowered.

exactly... it takes patience from both the franchise and the fan base... enough with the quick fixes and short cuts.. as I said before and I will say it again.. you don't have to be bad for long in this league if you are patient and do things the right way..

TeamBall wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:please.. Denver got nothing. They are going to spend the next 3 years trying to get a player good enough (cough cough) to get them in the playoffs every year. Mosgov is nice, and just an example of what happens when you keep and develop young players. Gallo is garbage and who knows if he's ever a regular NBA player any more. Who else? Will Chandler? Anthony Randolph? Please... Denver is a hodge podge of middle of the road NBA role players. But yea.. they do have a lot of them.

But we can always expect fair and unbiased observations from TFK when it comes to the Melo trade, so this last post makes it look like a win.

I look at it this way. Denver's best player was injured, Gallinari and still they have a better record than the Knicks as of the writing of this post. Gallinari was out for the entire season.

The point you seem to be missing is Denver didnt make that trade for the present day. They made it for the future. Denver has a possible top 12 first round pick this year. Mosgov's raw talent is starting to develop into what could be a special player in this league and Gallinari if he gets back from injury could lead this team into the playoffs next year. Oh and they have miles of cap room because they have 3 expiring players.

This trade wasnt about trying to catch lightning in a bottle. It was about potential... (edited to add this)atleast it wasnt for the Nuggets.

Maybe they should more concerned with avoiding those first round exits and less concerned about the Knicks' record

they are actually working on that and have, they first got rid of the king of first round exits in carmelo.. now they need to actually start instilling a winning culture there... last year with a franchise high in wins was a good way to start... but as of now the knicks record should interest the nuggets, they own the knicks pick.... I mean come on man... LOL

fishmike wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:please.. Denver got nothing. They are going to spend the next 3 years trying to get a player good enough (cough cough) to get them in the playoffs every year. Mosgov is nice, and just an example of what happens when you keep and develop young players. Gallo is garbage and who knows if he's ever a regular NBA player any more. Who else? Will Chandler? Anthony Randolph? Please... Denver is a hodge podge of middle of the road NBA role players. But yea.. they do have a lot of them.

But we can always expect fair and unbiased observations from TFK when it comes to the Melo trade, so this last post makes it look like a win.

I look at it this way. Denver's best player was injured, Gallinari and still they have a better record than the Knicks as of the writing of this post. Gallinari was out for the entire season.

The point you seem to be missing is Denver didnt make that trade for the present day. They made it for the future. Denver has a possible top 12 first round pick this year. Mosgov's raw talent is starting to develop into what could be a special player in this league and Gallinari if he gets back from injury could lead this team into the playoffs next year. Oh and they have miles of cap room because they have 3 expiring players.

This trade wasnt about trying to catch lightning in a bottle. It was about potential... (edited to add this)atleast it wasnt for the Nuggets.

Right... so 3 years later they are hoping 1) a guy whos always injured gets healthy 2) the next guy they draft will be a star 3) 3 years later they have cap flexibility and can chase who? Lebron?

WOW... we have created more Knick fans.

I can see one thing... Nuggets fans have learned to know what its like to follow the Knicks ;)

Seems to me trade hasnt helped either team. Nuggets are hoping 3 years later that one of these assets they aquired turns into something useful. Knicks in those same 3 years will have 3 coaches and 3 GMs so they havent exactly had much of a plan either.

Yea, but I would rather be in the Denver nuggets position. The future looks bright for them. The knicks... yea, not so much.

it does? Honestly? What am I missing? I see a team built around big contracts given to Javal McGee, Ty Lawson and Gallo. Throw in Mosgov and Will Chandler. They have an extra pick which will certainly help.

Whats the great position they are in? Who is the franchise talent that is leading them? Who are they building around? They have nice role players and no stars. We have a star and no role players. Seems like we just swapped problems.

With Melo the Nugs were 2nd tier. Good enough to get around 50 wins every year but not good enough to beat the elite team in the West and compete for a title. Now they are a lottery team stacked with overpaid role players and pining for a impact draft to bail them out of years of mediocrity. Who is the player if your a Nugs fan that has you excited about the future?

2nd tier? they only got out of the first round once.. they just didn't lose to elite teams, they lost to Utah and the clippers.. both were not elite teams....

they were a 50 win team, that had no future, no upside.. an overrated one dimensional allstar player who decided to hold that team hostage.. they were in no mans land... just like the Hawks were with joe Johnson..

now they are young, have picks, young players, and players they can easily trade and move.. heck we were just jocking one of their players in faried trying to dump shumpert for him... they have players that other teams want... they are in a good position.

you can huff and puff all you want, but they are in a better position that we are, even with Phil jackson...

tkf wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:please.. Denver got nothing. They are going to spend the next 3 years trying to get a player good enough (cough cough) to get them in the playoffs every year. Mosgov is nice, and just an example of what happens when you keep and develop young players. Gallo is garbage and who knows if he's ever a regular NBA player any more. Who else? Will Chandler? Anthony Randolph? Please... Denver is a hodge podge of middle of the road NBA role players. But yea.. they do have a lot of them.

But we can always expect fair and unbiased observations from TFK when it comes to the Melo trade, so this last post makes it look like a win.

I look at it this way. Denver's best player was injured, Gallinari and still they have a better record than the Knicks as of the writing of this post. Gallinari was out for the entire season.

The point you seem to be missing is Denver didnt make that trade for the present day. They made it for the future. Denver has a possible top 12 first round pick this year. Mosgov's raw talent is starting to develop into what could be a special player in this league and Gallinari if he gets back from injury could lead this team into the playoffs next year. Oh and they have miles of cap room because they have 3 expiring players.

This trade wasnt about trying to catch lightning in a bottle. It was about potential... (edited to add this)atleast it wasnt for the Nuggets.

Maybe they should more concerned with avoiding those first round exits and less concerned about the Knicks' record

they are actually working on that and have, they first got rid of the king of first round exits in carmelo.. now they need to actually start instilling a winning culture there... last year with a franchise high in wins was a good way to start... but as of now the knicks record should interest the nuggets, they own the knicks pick.... I mean come on man... LOL

You of all people should see the hypocrisy in bringing up the Nuggets every time one of them has a good game when you get upset that people bring up Georges, Durants, Lins, whoever's bad games. Posting Mozgovs highlight videos isn't going to bring him back.

Good point about the pick though. I forgot about that.

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:please.. Denver got nothing. They are going to spend the next 3 years trying to get a player good enough (cough cough) to get them in the playoffs every year. Mosgov is nice, and just an example of what happens when you keep and develop young players. Gallo is garbage and who knows if he's ever a regular NBA player any more. Who else? Will Chandler? Anthony Randolph? Please... Denver is a hodge podge of middle of the road NBA role players. But yea.. they do have a lot of them.

But we can always expect fair and unbiased observations from TFK when it comes to the Melo trade, so this last post makes it look like a win.

I look at it this way. Denver's best player was injured, Gallinari and still they have a better record than the Knicks as of the writing of this post. Gallinari was out for the entire season.

The point you seem to be missing is Denver didnt make that trade for the present day. They made it for the future. Denver has a possible top 12 first round pick this year. Mosgov's raw talent is starting to develop into what could be a special player in this league and Gallinari if he gets back from injury could lead this team into the playoffs next year. Oh and they have miles of cap room because they have 3 expiring players.

This trade wasnt about trying to catch lightning in a bottle. It was about potential... (edited to add this)atleast it wasnt for the Nuggets.

Right... so 3 years later they are hoping 1) a guy whos always injured gets healthy 2) the next guy they draft will be a star 3) 3 years later they have cap flexibility and can chase who? Lebron?

WOW... we have created more Knick fans.

I can see one thing... Nuggets fans have learned to know what its like to follow the Knicks ;)

Seems to me trade hasnt helped either team. Nuggets are hoping 3 years later that one of these assets they aquired turns into something useful. Knicks in those same 3 years will have 3 coaches and 3 GMs so they havent exactly had much of a plan either.

Yea, but I would rather be in the Denver nuggets position. The future looks bright for them. The knicks... yea, not so much.

it does? Honestly? What am I missing? I see a team built around big contracts given to Javal McGee, Ty Lawson and Gallo. Throw in Mosgov and Will Chandler. They have an extra pick which will certainly help.

Whats the great position they are in? Who is the franchise talent that is leading them? Who are they building around? They have nice role players and no stars. We have a star and no role players. Seems like we just swapped problems.

With Melo the Nugs were 2nd tier. Good enough to get around 50 wins every year but not good enough to beat the elite team in the West and compete for a title. Now they are a lottery team stacked with overpaid role players and pining for a impact draft to bail them out of years of mediocrity. Who is the player if your a Nugs fan that has you excited about the future?

2nd tier? they only got out of the first round once.. they just didn't lose to elite teams, they lost to Utah and the clippers.. both were not elite teams....

they were a 50 win team, that had no future, no upside.. an overrated one dimensional allstar player who decided to hold that team hostage.. they were in no mans land... just like the Hawks were with joe Johnson..

now they are young, have picks, young players, and players they can easily trade and move.. heck we were just jocking one of their players in faried trying to dump shumpert for him... they have players that other teams want... they are in a good position.

you can huff and puff all you want, but they are in a better position that we are, even with Phil jackson...

Denver is in a good position? For what? They have depth... as in tons of guys who are decent but not great. Only problem is they can only play 5 at a time. There isnt a single player in Denver that is a coveted piece. Cle has Irving, Wash has Wall.. we could do this all day. Instead of paying Melo Denver is paying the same money to McGee and Gallo, two guys who are never on the court and Gallo is approaching the Danny Manning zone.

I know you are desperate for Denver to do great so you can waive your Melo sucks flag even higher, but they just arent good, and have less then the rest of the lottery teams going for them.

fishmike wrote:

tkf wrote:

fishmike wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

subzero0 wrote:

fishmike wrote:please.. Denver got nothing. They are going to spend the next 3 years trying to get a player good enough (cough cough) to get them in the playoffs every year. Mosgov is nice, and just an example of what happens when you keep and develop young players. Gallo is garbage and who knows if he's ever a regular NBA player any more. Who else? Will Chandler? Anthony Randolph? Please... Denver is a hodge podge of middle of the road NBA role players. But yea.. they do have a lot of them.

But we can always expect fair and unbiased observations from TFK when it comes to the Melo trade, so this last post makes it look like a win.

I look at it this way. Denver's best player was injured, Gallinari and still they have a better record than the Knicks as of the writing of this post. Gallinari was out for the entire season.

The point you seem to be missing is Denver didnt make that trade for the present day. They made it for the future. Denver has a possible top 12 first round pick this year. Mosgov's raw talent is starting to develop into what could be a special player in this league and Gallinari if he gets back from injury could lead this team into the playoffs next year. Oh and they have miles of cap room because they have 3 expiring players.

This trade wasnt about trying to catch lightning in a bottle. It was about potential... (edited to add this)atleast it wasnt for the Nuggets.

Right... so 3 years later they are hoping 1) a guy whos always injured gets healthy 2) the next guy they draft will be a star 3) 3 years later they have cap flexibility and can chase who? Lebron?

WOW... we have created more Knick fans.

I can see one thing... Nuggets fans have learned to know what its like to follow the Knicks ;)

Seems to me trade hasnt helped either team. Nuggets are hoping 3 years later that one of these assets they aquired turns into something useful. Knicks in those same 3 years will have 3 coaches and 3 GMs so they havent exactly had much of a plan either.

Yea, but I would rather be in the Denver nuggets position. The future looks bright for them. The knicks... yea, not so much.

it does? Honestly? What am I missing? I see a team built around big contracts given to Javal McGee, Ty Lawson and Gallo. Throw in Mosgov and Will Chandler. They have an extra pick which will certainly help.

Whats the great position they are in? Who is the franchise talent that is leading them? Who are they building around? They have nice role players and no stars. We have a star and no role players. Seems like we just swapped problems.

With Melo the Nugs were 2nd tier. Good enough to get around 50 wins every year but not good enough to beat the elite team in the West and compete for a title. Now they are a lottery team stacked with overpaid role players and pining for a impact draft to bail them out of years of mediocrity. Who is the player if your a Nugs fan that has you excited about the future?

2nd tier? they only got out of the first round once.. they just didn't lose to elite teams, they lost to Utah and the clippers.. both were not elite teams....

they were a 50 win team, that had no future, no upside.. an overrated one dimensional allstar player who decided to hold that team hostage.. they were in no mans land... just like the Hawks were with joe Johnson..

now they are young, have picks, young players, and players they can easily trade and move.. heck we were just jocking one of their players in faried trying to dump shumpert for him... they have players that other teams want... they are in a good position.

you can huff and puff all you want, but they are in a better position that we are, even with Phil jackson...

sounds like your huffing and puffing about a team built around guys who cant stay healthy, have a bad record and no clear path of who they are building around, but yes... Denver is just about to turn the corner. Again.

Denver is in a good position? For what? They have depth... as in tons of guys who are decent but not great. Only problem is they can only play 5 at a time. There isnt a single player in Denver that is a coveted piece. Cle has Irving, Wash has Wall.. we could do this all day. Instead of paying Melo Denver is paying the same money to McGee and Gallo, two guys who are never on the court and Gallo is approaching the Danny Manning zone.

I know you are desperate for Denver to do great so you can waive your Melo sucks flag even higher, but they just arent good, and have less then the rest of the lottery teams going for them.

Funny isn't it? Let's recap, shall we?

2010! Denver, the trade is positioning them for the future! We're only built for right now!
2011! Records don't matter, post jv season results do!
2012! Denver, still positioned for the future! The West is tough!
2013! Denver? who mentioned Denver? Why are you always bringing up Gallo? Who mentioned Gallo? I like the way Indy is built! Great team!
2014! MOZ is the man! We gave away the farm! Denver is positioned for the future!

Unfuhucking real.

I really get a laugh out of your posts (even though it makes me think that you are Nalods alter ego)

Centrist anti-conspiracy theorist debunking Nyets loving Dr J fro wearing posters need love too, you know!

fishmike wrote:Wouldnt Kevin Garnett be the kind of the first round exits? A guy who won meaningless regular season awards only to flame out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (I think thats 10?) before he finally got a real supporting cast?

Fish difference is KG is a team player and can impact the game in multiple ways. Surround him with talent and he wins a ring. See Boston. Melo is a black hole. It's debatable if he can win it all even with talent

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wouldnt Kevin Garnett be the kind of the first round exits? A guy who won meaningless regular season awards only to flame out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (I think thats 10?) before he finally got a real supporting cast?

Fish difference is KG is a team player and can impact the game in multiple ways. Surround him with talent and he wins a ring. See Boston. Melo is a black hole. It's debatable if he can win it all even with talent

So how come he played so well with Billups? How did he go to the conf finals and even win a game against the laker powerhouse (on the ROAD)?

He is no garnett (not by a long shot) nor was he surrounded by the same caliber players.

These extremist argument from both extremes are so silly and full of faulty reasoning and conjecture yet each side keeps blindly skipping down these paths.

We know when Melo was surrounded by "good" players and an efficient PG he did very well.

We know that when he was surrounded with crap, he did ok -> bad.

What can we determine from this? Absolutely nothing.

He has not proven that he could win it all if he was surrounded by the right pieces nor has he proven that he can't.

Melo needs help but he's not on Jordan, Kobe, KG lebron's level. Get those guys help and they win rings. Melo is not good enough to win it all with unless we get really lucky ith a great GM great coach and a total team effort. If the goal is just making the playoffs then Melo is definitely your guy. I would jump to give a 25-26yr old close to max money. Not 30+year old Melo. Unless he was one those guys level I mentioned

mreinman wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:

fishmike wrote:Wouldnt Kevin Garnett be the kind of the first round exits? A guy who won meaningless regular season awards only to flame out year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year after year (I think thats 10?) before he finally got a real supporting cast?

Fish difference is KG is a team player and can impact the game in multiple ways. Surround him with talent and he wins a ring. See Boston. Melo is a black hole. It's debatable if he can win it all even with talent

So how come he played so well with Billups? How did he go to the conf finals and even win a game against the laker powerhouse (on the ROAD)?

He is no garnett (not by a long shot) nor was he surrounded by the same caliber players.

These extremist argument from both extremes are so silly and full of faulty reasoning and conjecture yet each side keeps blindly skipping down these paths.

We know when Melo was surrounded by "good" players and an efficient PG he did very well.

We know that when he was surrounded with crap, he did ok -> bad.

What can we determine from this? Absolutely nothing.

He has not proven that he could win it all if he was surrounded by the right pieces nor has he proven that he can't.

he is not a two-way player-- makes it tough to win it all when he has never shown an aptitude or desire to expend more energy on defense than offense. it really says a lot about a player. garnett always has given greater energy on defense. all the true greats do, even the ones that get hammered for not being great defenders, like bird and johnson.

gunsnewing wrote:Melo lacks the same motor as those guys. Bottomline

can't afford to pay this guy more than 13-14 million a year as a knick. if someone has more money to pay for his services then have at it. knicks don't have that luxury-- not for a guy who will be 30 years old in a couple of weeks and 31.5 by november 2015.

KG - Pierce, Jesus Shuttlesworth, Rondo
LeFlop - Miami Mice & Friends
Kobe - Shaq, Pau, Bynum (the good one)

Melo - Chauncey Billups, what was left of AI.

Seriously? This is your argument as to why Melo can't win it all?