Knicks · OT:The American Middle Class Is No Longer the World’s Richest.. (page 2)

NardDogNation wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:This is all by design.

Intelligent design, or just dancing to our DNA design?

I assume the intelligent designers referred to here would be the wealthy — corporate executives and the financial industry — who game our political process to benefit their profit motive at the expense of the majority of US society? Say what you want about Occupy Wall Street, their 99%/1% imagery is hard to avoid bringing up when thinking about this.

But maybe we are too busy arguing about Noah's ark and where penises should go to notice anyway.

+1000. The only real issue we face, which every culture has faced, is the division of labor and distribution of resources. Everything else is just a tool used to divide the masses who would otherwise have a shared interest.

The tools used to divide the masses most effectively are:
Racism
Religion

They've been going strong for several centuries. Without so much division, there would be a serious movement to tilt the scales in working people's favor.

Killa4luv wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

GoNyGoNyGo wrote:This is all by design.

Intelligent design, or just dancing to our DNA design?

I assume the intelligent designers referred to here would be the wealthy — corporate executives and the financial industry — who game our political process to benefit their profit motive at the expense of the majority of US society? Say what you want about Occupy Wall Street, their 99%/1% imagery is hard to avoid bringing up when thinking about this.

But maybe we are too busy arguing about Noah's ark and where penises should go to notice anyway.

+1000. The only real issue we face, which every culture has faced, is the division of labor and distribution of resources. Everything else is just a tool used to divide the masses who would otherwise have a shared interest.

The tools used to divide the masses most effectively are:
Racism
Religion

They've been going strong for several centuries. Without so much division, there would be a serious movement to tilt the scales in working people's favor.

Marx and Engels called. They're both still dead.
Working people. Masses. Quote the opiate thing again, please. That was always so catchy.

Oh thy elitist, fairly well-off intellectuals, go forth and fix all of mankind for us once again!

With enough education and rich people's money, your normal human will replace stealing pens from work, with stealing billions of dollars in Retirement Funds.

Please spare me the retread Marxist nirvana bs. It's been tried and re-tried. It doesn't work.

What does? Private enterprise and a lack of pandering to the entitlement crowd who want more than the Iphone, the data plan and the used Honda and the government who takes care of everything for you. We are all entitled to whatever anyone at any level has! There should be no Bill Gates/Steve Jobs/Mark Cubans/Warren Buffets! Forced Economic Equality for all! Overseen by those of us who know better than the "masses" and the "working people".

You guys are right. Really, really dumb sheep. All we need is the right shepherds.

And why worry about Noah or what you do with your private parts? Or killing babies, or euthanasia, or the death penalty or divorce! Who needs to think about all that morality sh--t! It's the economy, stupid! Get the money thing right, and you don't need to worry about that moralizing bs!

jrodmc wrote:
Marx and Engels called. They're both still dead.
Working people. Masses. Quote the opiate thing again, please. That was always so catchy.

Oh thy elitist, fairly well-off intellectuals, go forth and fix all of mankind for us once again!

With enough education and rich people's money, your normal human will replace stealing pens from work, with stealing billions of dollars in Retirement Funds.

Please spare me the retread Marxist nirvana bs. It's been tried and re-tried. It doesn't work.

What does? Private enterprise and a lack of pandering to the entitlement crowd who want more than the Iphone, the data plan and the used Honda and the government who takes care of everything for you. We are all entitled to whatever anyone at any level has! There should be no Bill Gates/Steve Jobs/Mark Cubans/Warren Buffets! Forced Economic Equality for all! Overseen by those of us who know better than the "masses" and the "working people".

You guys are right. Really, really dumb sheep. All we need is the right shepherds.

And why worry about Noah or what you do with your private parts? Or killing babies, or euthanasia, or the death penalty or divorce! Who needs to think about all that morality sh--t! It's the economy, stupid! Get the money thing right, and you don't need to worry about that moralizing bs!

comrade jrod: I'm all for talking about personal morality and responsibility, but was speaking to morality in our politics and economy as suggested by the data in the OP. I hit you with that Noah/penis crack in response to your wiseass "intelligent design/DNA" comment because I knew it would wind you up.

I see the OP as evidence of unchecked greed and the profit motive by what a Republican president once called the military-industrial complex, or what is now the government-corporate-financial complex. Personally, I don't like writing off 50% of the populous as dumb as in stupid. Dumb as in silent or not heard may be more accurate. Or maybe they just have other fish to fry.

I agree, we are all wrapped up in our smartphones and distraction, hence my cheeky references to cat videos & sports forums, and more serious reference to mass media. That's the real opiate of the masses if there is any.

The sheep and the Shepherd, hmm… where have I heard that metaphor before? Ah, from some dead guys.

DrAlphaeus wrote:

jrodmc wrote:
Marx and Engels called. They're both still dead.
Working people. Masses. Quote the opiate thing again, please. That was always so catchy.

Oh thy elitist, fairly well-off intellectuals, go forth and fix all of mankind for us once again!

With enough education and rich people's money, your normal human will replace stealing pens from work, with stealing billions of dollars in Retirement Funds.

Please spare me the retread Marxist nirvana bs. It's been tried and re-tried. It doesn't work.

What does? Private enterprise and a lack of pandering to the entitlement crowd who want more than the Iphone, the data plan and the used Honda and the government who takes care of everything for you. We are all entitled to whatever anyone at any level has! There should be no Bill Gates/Steve Jobs/Mark Cubans/Warren Buffets! Forced Economic Equality for all! Overseen by those of us who know better than the "masses" and the "working people".

You guys are right. Really, really dumb sheep. All we need is the right shepherds.

And why worry about Noah or what you do with your private parts? Or killing babies, or euthanasia, or the death penalty or divorce! Who needs to think about all that morality sh--t! It's the economy, stupid! Get the money thing right, and you don't need to worry about that moralizing bs!

comrade jrod: I'm all for talking about personal morality and responsibility, but was speaking to morality in our politics and economy as suggested by the data in the OP. I hit you with that Noah/penis crack in response to your wiseass "intelligent design/DNA" comment because I knew it would wind you up.

I see the OP as evidence of unchecked greed and the profit motive by what a Republican president once called the military-industrial complex, or what is now the government-corporate-financial complex. Personally, I don't like writing off 50% of the populous as dumb as in stupid. Dumb as in silent or not heard may be more accurate. Or maybe they just have other fish to fry.

I agree, we are all wrapped up in our smartphones and distraction, hence my cheeky references to cat videos & sports forums, and more serious reference to mass media. That's the real opiate of the masses if there is any.

The sheep and the Shepherd, hmm… where have I heard that metaphor before? Ah, from some dead guys.

Personal morality, ah thy name is privatization! Glad you're all for personal morality! It's great and one heck of alot easier when nothing is trancendant and only applies to what you do in the privacy of your own home, isn't it?
I find it interesting that the morally lax are normally those who are so rabidly concerned about what the rich get to do with all their money. Morality? Private! Finances? Public! Maybe it's because us Christians are so used to TV pastors making millions selling Jesus and living in mansions and not filing any financials that we don't seem all that upset that Mark Cuban is a billionaire.

My Iphone, dataplan and used Honda reference was a direct jab at those poor tarp-inhabiting Occupy Wall Street folks, those fine bastions of the 99%! Either way, as a TV set depicted in Calvin & Hobbes once said. "Marx hadn't seen anything yet".

Wrong again, good Doctor! The one Shepherd is reputedly still alive! Sitting in heaven, but still alive! They still couldn't produce the body, either!

jrodmc wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

jrodmc wrote:
Marx and Engels called. They're both still dead.
Working people. Masses. Quote the opiate thing again, please. That was always so catchy.

Oh thy elitist, fairly well-off intellectuals, go forth and fix all of mankind for us once again!

With enough education and rich people's money, your normal human will replace stealing pens from work, with stealing billions of dollars in Retirement Funds.

Please spare me the retread Marxist nirvana bs. It's been tried and re-tried. It doesn't work.

What does? Private enterprise and a lack of pandering to the entitlement crowd who want more than the Iphone, the data plan and the used Honda and the government who takes care of everything for you. We are all entitled to whatever anyone at any level has! There should be no Bill Gates/Steve Jobs/Mark Cubans/Warren Buffets! Forced Economic Equality for all! Overseen by those of us who know better than the "masses" and the "working people".

You guys are right. Really, really dumb sheep. All we need is the right shepherds.

And why worry about Noah or what you do with your private parts? Or killing babies, or euthanasia, or the death penalty or divorce! Who needs to think about all that morality sh--t! It's the economy, stupid! Get the money thing right, and you don't need to worry about that moralizing bs!

comrade jrod: I'm all for talking about personal morality and responsibility, but was speaking to morality in our politics and economy as suggested by the data in the OP. I hit you with that Noah/penis crack in response to your wiseass "intelligent design/DNA" comment because I knew it would wind you up.

I see the OP as evidence of unchecked greed and the profit motive by what a Republican president once called the military-industrial complex, or what is now the government-corporate-financial complex. Personally, I don't like writing off 50% of the populous as dumb as in stupid. Dumb as in silent or not heard may be more accurate. Or maybe they just have other fish to fry.

I agree, we are all wrapped up in our smartphones and distraction, hence my cheeky references to cat videos & sports forums, and more serious reference to mass media. That's the real opiate of the masses if there is any.

The sheep and the Shepherd, hmm… where have I heard that metaphor before? Ah, from some dead guys.

Dr. A, I hardly get wound up about anything in here. Seriously, I'm commenting about opiate affects of things while typing in this stupid forum, just like you right? Missing an open j or a layup, now that gets me wound up.

Personal morality, ah thy name is privatization! Glad you're all for personal morality! It's great and one heck of alot easier when nothing is trancendant and only applies to what you do in the privacy of your own home, isn't it?
I find it interesting that the morally lax are normally those who are so rabidly concerned about what the rich get to do with all their money. Morality? Private! Finances? Public! Maybe it's because us Christians are so used to TV pastors making millions selling Jesus and living in mansions and not filing any financials that we don't seem all that upset that Mark Cuban is a billionaire.

My Iphone, dataplan and used Honda reference was a direct jab at those poor tarp-inhabiting Occupy Wall Street folks, those fine bastions of the 99%! Either way, as a TV set depicted in Calvin & Hobbes once said. "Marx hadn't seen anything yet".

Wrong again, good Doctor! The one Shepherd is reputedly still alive! Sitting in heaven, but still alive! They still couldn't produce the body, either!

There are rich people that earned their money, I get it. I'm no "hater". But when the rich are doing stuff like polluting the water and land or corrupting politicians or wage theft from everyone from fast food clerks to Silicon Valley engineers while CEO salaries skyrocket, it's not even just about morality so much as unwise and unsustainable and probably illegal.

But whatever, all hail the Mighty Job Creators! Reduce their tax rate even further! It will all just trickle down like a golden shower.

As for that Shepherd metaphor, I'm still pretty sure everyone who actually wrote that down is dead by now. But any great character in a good story like that lives on forever! ;)

jrodmc wrote:

DrAlphaeus wrote:

jrodmc wrote:
Marx and Engels called. They're both still dead.
Working people. Masses. Quote the opiate thing again, please. That was always so catchy.

Oh thy elitist, fairly well-off intellectuals, go forth and fix all of mankind for us once again!

With enough education and rich people's money, your normal human will replace stealing pens from work, with stealing billions of dollars in Retirement Funds.

Please spare me the retread Marxist nirvana bs. It's been tried and re-tried. It doesn't work.

What does? Private enterprise and a lack of pandering to the entitlement crowd who want more than the Iphone, the data plan and the used Honda and the government who takes care of everything for you. We are all entitled to whatever anyone at any level has! There should be no Bill Gates/Steve Jobs/Mark Cubans/Warren Buffets! Forced Economic Equality for all! Overseen by those of us who know better than the "masses" and the "working people".

You guys are right. Really, really dumb sheep. All we need is the right shepherds.

And why worry about Noah or what you do with your private parts? Or killing babies, or euthanasia, or the death penalty or divorce! Who needs to think about all that morality sh--t! It's the economy, stupid! Get the money thing right, and you don't need to worry about that moralizing bs!

comrade jrod: I'm all for talking about personal morality and responsibility, but was speaking to morality in our politics and economy as suggested by the data in the OP. I hit you with that Noah/penis crack in response to your wiseass "intelligent design/DNA" comment because I knew it would wind you up.

I see the OP as evidence of unchecked greed and the profit motive by what a Republican president once called the military-industrial complex, or what is now the government-corporate-financial complex. Personally, I don't like writing off 50% of the populous as dumb as in stupid. Dumb as in silent or not heard may be more accurate. Or maybe they just have other fish to fry.

I agree, we are all wrapped up in our smartphones and distraction, hence my cheeky references to cat videos & sports forums, and more serious reference to mass media. That's the real opiate of the masses if there is any.

The sheep and the Shepherd, hmm… where have I heard that metaphor before? Ah, from some dead guys.

Dr. A, I hardly get wound up about anything in here. Seriously, I'm commenting about opiate affects of things while typing in this stupid forum, just like you right? Missing an open j or a layup, now that gets me wound up.

Personal morality, ah thy name is privatization! Glad you're all for personal morality! It's great and one heck of alot easier when nothing is trancendant and only applies to what you do in the privacy of your own home, isn't it?
I find it interesting that the morally lax are normally those who are so rabidly concerned about what the rich get to do with all their money. Morality? Private! Finances? Public! Maybe it's because us Christians are so used to TV pastors making millions selling Jesus and living in mansions and not filing any financials that we don't seem all that upset that Mark Cuban is a billionaire.

My Iphone, dataplan and used Honda reference was a direct jab at those poor tarp-inhabiting Occupy Wall Street folks, those fine bastions of the 99%! Either way, as a TV set depicted in Calvin & Hobbes once said. "Marx hadn't seen anything yet".

Wrong again, good Doctor! The one Shepherd is reputedly still alive! Sitting in heaven, but still alive! They still couldn't produce the body, either!

I will quibble about one more thing at the risk of being even more OT. It is possible to have morals even if you don't believe in an omniscient cosmic source of morality, just saying. I'm a pretty moral guy I'd like to think, and things like those persistent subway announcements remind me to not be a jerk and give my seat up to pregnant ladies — I may be conflating morality, ethics and manners so do forgive me as I know you are instructed to. Unless that's the voice of God? I though he sounded like Morgan Freeman.

By contrast, Americans at the 95th percentile of the distribution — with $58,600 in after-tax per capita income, not including capital gains — still make 20 percent more than their counterparts in Canada, 26 percent more than those in Britain and 50 percent more than those in the Netherlands. For these well-off families, the United States still has easily the world’s most prosperous major economy.

actofgod wrote:Maybe someone should read the entire article instead of just replying to sensationalized headlines with talking points.

By contrast, Americans at the 95th percentile of the distribution — with $58,600 in after-tax per capita income, not including capital gains — still make 20 percent more than their counterparts in Canada, 26 percent more than those in Britain and 50 percent more than those in the Netherlands. For these well-off families, the United States still has easily the world’s most prosperous major economy.

You are right. I'll put away my soapbox.

There is a lot wrong with our system but it still works. Social programs and regulation must exist or imbalance will tip the scale.

Marx was right but the manifest is unachievable because its corupted by human nature. A Kabbutz can work because its a subset of a larger system. In mass it won't because incentive is lost. Why work when you don't have to?

Nalod wrote:Socialism is getting choked by its entitlements and mounting debt. Privitization is enevitable as the key methoed to unwinding it.

There is a lot wrong with our system but it still works. Social programs and regulation must exist or imbalance will tip the scale.

Marx was right but the manifest is unachievable because its corupted by human nature. A Kabbutz can work because its a subset of a larger system. In mass it won't because incentive is lost. Why work when you don't have to?

Kibbutzim work in israel because of pride. Here is a good article from a little while back.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/27/world/...

Do people in america have the same ideals? Socialism works short term and/or on a much smaller scale.

actofgod wrote:Maybe someone should read the entire article instead of just replying to sensationalized headlines with talking points.

By contrast, Americans at the 95th percentile of the distribution — with $58,600 in after-tax per capita income, not including capital gains — still make 20 percent more than their counterparts in Canada, 26 percent more than those in Britain and 50 percent more than those in the Netherlands. For these well-off families, the United States still has easily the world’s most prosperous major economy.

I'm not sure how or why that changes the nature of the conversation that was being had when the bulk of Americans make less than that figure.

Nalod wrote:Socialism is getting choked by its entitlements and mounting debt. Privitization is enevitable as the key methoed to unwinding it.

There is a lot wrong with our system but it still works. Social programs and regulation must exist or imbalance will tip the scale.

Marx was right but the manifest is unachievable because its corupted by human nature. A Kabbutz can work because its a subset of a larger system. In mass it won't because incentive is lost. Why work when you don't have to?

Yes, the system works "well" for those who are doing well in it. The overwhelming number of Americans are not doing well in it thought. You claim that socialism is getting "choked" but how is capitalism fairing. Our economy is still shitty,growing at about 2% annually. For every new job created, there are 3 prospective applicants and things don't seem to be getting better.

mreinman wrote:

Nalod wrote:Socialism is getting choked by its entitlements and mounting debt. Privitization is enevitable as the key methoed to unwinding it.

There is a lot wrong with our system but it still works. Social programs and regulation must exist or imbalance will tip the scale.

Marx was right but the manifest is unachievable because its corupted by human nature. A Kabbutz can work because its a subset of a larger system. In mass it won't because incentive is lost. Why work when you don't have to?

Kibbutzim work in israel because of pride. Here is a good article from a little while back.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/27/world/...

Do people in america have the same ideals? Socialism works short term and/or on a much smaller scale.

Define "short term" because much of the rest of the industrialized world utilizes elements of socialism and those programs have been solvent for nearly 60 years.

NardDogNation wrote:

actofgod wrote:Maybe someone should read the entire article instead of just replying to sensationalized headlines with talking points.

By contrast, Americans at the 95th percentile of the distribution — with $58,600 in after-tax per capita income, not including capital gains — still make 20 percent more than their counterparts in Canada, 26 percent more than those in Britain and 50 percent more than those in the Netherlands. For these well-off families, the United States still has easily the world’s most prosperous major economy.

I'm not sure how or why that changes the nature of the conversation that was being had when the bulk of Americans make less than that figure.

Is there a map that shows the heat map of per capita/wealth in the US? My guess is that most of the money is in major metropolitan areas and that is skewing the average per capita in the more rural areas. I could be wrong on that but it seems logical.

Then I would dig in to those average wages and cost of living - for example $100k in NYC is not a lot of money if you consider rent, food, commuting etc.

Another thought is, how much time do Americans get/actually take off? Isn't it pretty low compared to other countries?

OasisBU wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

actofgod wrote:Maybe someone should read the entire article instead of just replying to sensationalized headlines with talking points.

By contrast, Americans at the 95th percentile of the distribution — with $58,600 in after-tax per capita income, not including capital gains — still make 20 percent more than their counterparts in Canada, 26 percent more than those in Britain and 50 percent more than those in the Netherlands. For these well-off families, the United States still has easily the world’s most prosperous major economy.

I'm not sure how or why that changes the nature of the conversation that was being had when the bulk of Americans make less than that figure.

Is there a map that shows the heat map of per capita/wealth in the US? My guess is that most of the money is in major metropolitan areas and that is skewing the average per capita in the more rural areas. I could be wrong on that but it seems logical.

Then I would dig in to those average wages and cost of living - for example $100k in NYC is not a lot of money if you consider rent, food, commuting etc.

Another thought is, how much time do Americans get/actually take off? Isn't it pretty low compared to other countries?

Yeah, you're right. A more effective means of looking at this situation might be by developing some index that standardizes cost of living, as opposed to looking at raw wages. In any case, I still think we fair worse than the rest of the industrialized world because of their tax structure and socialist programs. There is a reason why Scandinavian countries (which are more socialist than we are) are considered the happiest in the world.