Knicks · My "Zen-ification" Plan (page 1)

NardDogNation @ 5/6/2014 10:00 PM
When you look at Phil Jackson's teams, several patterns emerge:

1.) No one man orchestrates the offense; instead, the system (which puts an emphasis on ball movement and player movement) does. As a result, PG's are ideally guys that can move without the ball, shoot, and defend their position. I think that this is the most important feature of the triangle offense because it means that defenses can no longer focus in on a player or two to disrupt the offense. Come playoff time, that is key to having success and why we see so many two-PG lineups being featured.

2.) Shooters who can maximize the spacing on the floor are key. That is a constant, even though the offense works playing inside-out or outside-in.

3.) The roster has to be filled with two-way players that are exceptionally long. I can't think of a player that Phil had whose height was considered below average for his respective position. The effect from doing this can be felt two-fold. For one, positional defense as opposed to individual defense gets emphasized more. It allows players who have not traditionally been good man-defenders to have a far greater impact (see Sasha Vujacic, Pau Gasol, Glen Rice, etc.) in more team-centric schemes. On the offensive end, it creates a series of mismatches that makes the team extremely difficult to defend and/or contain.

Knowing all of that, this is how I'd build our team....

1.) http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?trad...

I know that it says the deal doesn't work financially but it will once the 2014-2015 salaries come into effective. Once that happens...

Boston does it to clear $20 million off their payroll for 2015.

Houston does it to clear $15 million off their 2014-2015 payroll. They also get role players who better fit their roles e.g. Brandon Bass as opposed to Omer Asik and a healthy Nate Robinson as opposed to Jeremy Lin. I don't think they could use Prigioni but do see them flipping him in a sign and trade for Lavoy Allen of the Pacers.

Denver does it to provide a mentor for JaVale McGee and add depth at the position. Jeff Green is about as good as Gallo and/or Wilson Chandler but healthier. They lose depth at the position but would still have Jan Vesley and will likely be able to select Rodney Hood or TJ Warren in the draft.

The Knicks do it because it would be an obvious talent upgrade. We'd forfeit a minimum of $11 million worth of cap space in 2015 but to me, a bird in hand is worth two in the bush. There would be a great deal of risk involved because of a poor injury history with Gallo, Wilson and Varejao (who I'd get, along with a 2nd rounder, for Omer Asik) but we'd be deep enough to weather the storm, as Denver has these past several seasons.

2.) http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?trad...
As I just said, I would flip Omer Asik for Anderson Varejao and a 2nd round pick. The Cavs would get a legitimate starter at the center position, while we would get a solid bench player whose passing ability would fit well in the triangle. I'd start Mozgov but I could see Varejao getting more time if healthy.

3.) http://espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?trad...

Nets do it because they get better bench depth. I also think that JR would be perfect for them given the veteran leadership, his rapport with Jason Kidd and the fact that they can weather his lows. Kenyon Martin is also a friend of Jason Kidd's and can fill the role vacated by Reggie Evans. There is no way to sugarcoat Felton being in the deal but he'd only be a 3rd string player.

Milwaukee does it to get out of Mayo's contract. In the mean time, Thornton fills the "gunner" role that they anticipated Mayo to be until they find a long term solution.

We do it because Mayo might be the best candidate to ever be a PG in the triangle. I still believe that the guy has the "stuff" stars are made of and can see him having a Chauncey Billups-like coming out party.

NardDogNation @ 5/6/2014 10:09 PM
Our roster...
STARTERS
OJ Mayo...PG
Iman Shumpert...SG
Carmelo Anthony...SF
Danilo Gallinari...PF
Timofey Mozgov...C

ROTATION
Jeremy Lin...G
Tim Hardaway Jr. ...SG
Wilson Chandler...F
Darrell Arthur...PF
Anderson Varejao...C

BENCH
Jimmer Fredette...G
Shannon Brown...G/F
Gerald Wallace...F
Lamar Odom...F/C
Joel Anthony...C

...this team would be exceptionally long, have several efficient perimeter shooters and decent ball movers. They'd be injury-prone but I think that the bench depth would alleviate the pressure that the injuries would cause. I think we'd be able to win about 45 games, after experiencing a slow start but I doubt we get much further than the 2nd round. However, this team would have a solid enough foundation to build on come 2015. Despite all the big ticket additions, we'd still have about $23 million to work with to sign free agents; possibly more if we use the stretch provision on Gerald Wallace's contract. I much rather we use a more comprehensive plan to building our team than simply waiting for 2015 and relying exclusively on cap space.

Rookie @ 5/6/2014 10:17 PM
According to the Hollinger's analysis, your trades result in negative wins for every team involved....but what does he know anyways :)
NardDogNation @ 5/6/2014 10:26 PM
Rookie wrote:According to the Hollinger's analysis, your trades result in negative wins for every team involved....but what does he know anyways :)

If you trade Melo (and Iman) to the Bulls, and have them keep Noah, Rose, Gibson, Dunleavy and Hinrich, it also results in negative wins. I suspect that Hollinger has no idea what he is talking about, lol.

LegendaryKnicks @ 5/6/2014 11:07 PM
Why are we bringing back Lin, Mozgov, Chandler and Gallinari? Why don't we get Toronto on the phone and have a go at Landry Fields and see what Quinton Richardson is up to. In addtion, OJ Mayo as starting PG? That guys a bum.
NardDogNation @ 5/6/2014 11:18 PM
LegendaryKnicks wrote:Why are we bringing back Lin, Mozgov, Chandler and Gallinari? Why don't we get Toronto on the phone and have a go at Landry Fields and see what Quinton Richardson is up to. In addtion, OJ Mayo as starting PG? That guys a bum.

I didn't realize that players stop being good after they leave the Knicks. Someone should've told that to David Lee, Trevor Ariza, Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford before the playoffs started.

Also, thank you for that insightful critique of Mayo's game but I'd recommend you look at him and his career more closely. He's had a bad stretch with the Bucks...but who hasn't on that team? On a capable team, Mayo has been pretty good.

mreinman @ 5/6/2014 11:23 PM
You want a guy who has averaged 3 assists per game for his career as our starting PG? That is the worst passing starting 5 in NBA history.
BigDaddyG @ 5/6/2014 11:26 PM
NardDogNation wrote:
LegendaryKnicks wrote:Why are we bringing back Lin, Mozgov, Chandler and Gallinari? Why don't we get Toronto on the phone and have a go at Landry Fields and see what Quinton Richardson is up to. In addtion, OJ Mayo as starting PG? That guys a bum.

I didn't realize that players stop being good after they leave the Knicks. Someone should've told that to David Lee, Trevor Ariza, Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford before the playoffs started.

Also, thank you for that insightful critique of Mayo's game but I'd recommend you look at him and his career more closely. He's had a bad stretch with the Bucks...but who hasn't on that team? On a capable team, Mayo has been pretty good.


I don't think Mayo is a point guard, but I think he could masquerade as one in the triangle. But he's making $8M per for the next two years. I think he'll have a bounce back year, but I also think there may be some cheaper options out there that the team should look at first.
NardDogNation @ 5/6/2014 11:34 PM
BigDaddyG wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
LegendaryKnicks wrote:Why are we bringing back Lin, Mozgov, Chandler and Gallinari? Why don't we get Toronto on the phone and have a go at Landry Fields and see what Quinton Richardson is up to. In addtion, OJ Mayo as starting PG? That guys a bum.

I didn't realize that players stop being good after they leave the Knicks. Someone should've told that to David Lee, Trevor Ariza, Zach Randolph and Jamal Crawford before the playoffs started.

Also, thank you for that insightful critique of Mayo's game but I'd recommend you look at him and his career more closely. He's had a bad stretch with the Bucks...but who hasn't on that team? On a capable team, Mayo has been pretty good.


I don't think Mayo is a point guard, but I think he could masquerade as one in the triangle. But he's making $8M per for the next two years. I think he'll have a bounce back year, but I also think there may be some cheaper options out there that the team should look at first.

We'd be consolidating JR and Felton's contract to get Mayo. All 3 contracts expire after the 2015-2016 season, so there would be no net gain in our payroll. We'd actually be saving $2 million/yr if we made that trade. With all those things considered, I can't see any downside to the deal.

NardDogNation @ 5/6/2014 11:36 PM
mreinman wrote:You want a guy who has averaged 3 assists per game for his career as our starting PG? That is the worst passing starting 5 in NBA history.

Ron Harper averaged 3.9apg for his career, playing 4 seasons as Phil Jackson's PG. He has 4 rings to show for it.

As for the rest of the team, the Nuggets seemed to be good at moving the ball. I'm not sure why that would now become an issue, considering that we'd have half their team.

mreinman @ 5/7/2014 12:07 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
mreinman wrote:You want a guy who has averaged 3 assists per game for his career as our starting PG? That is the worst passing starting 5 in NBA history.

Ron Harper averaged 3.9apg for his career, playing 4 seasons as Phil Jackson's PG. He has 4 rings to show for it.

As for the rest of the team, the Nuggets seemed to be good at moving the ball. I'm not sure why that would now become an issue, considering that we'd have half their team.

Geeeez - he was not the PG. Pippen and Jordan were - where do you think the assists came from?

OJ (3), Shump (2), Gallo (1.9) and Melo (3), Moz (0.5)

Sometimes I am not sure if you are kidding.

NardDogNation @ 5/7/2014 1:21 AM
mreinman wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
mreinman wrote:You want a guy who has averaged 3 assists per game for his career as our starting PG? That is the worst passing starting 5 in NBA history.

Ron Harper averaged 3.9apg for his career, playing 4 seasons as Phil Jackson's PG. He has 4 rings to show for it.

As for the rest of the team, the Nuggets seemed to be good at moving the ball. I'm not sure why that would now become an issue, considering that we'd have half their team.

Geeeez - he was not the PG. Pippen and Jordan were - where do you think the assists came from?

OJ (3), Shump (2), Gallo (1.9) and Melo (3), Moz (0.5)

Sometimes I am not sure if you are kidding.

If you look at any official listing of those Bulls/Lakers starting lineups, Ron Harper is slated at "PG" spot. As I've said several dozen times, the PG in the triangle does not fulfill the prototypical role of a PG. That was the case for Ron Harper. That would be the case for OJ Mayo and why you, pointing out his assist per game numbers, makes no sense.

And to be fair, the numbers you are listing involve players, playing for different teams, in systems that are not the triangle. They are not bad passers, I just don't think they've been put in a system where they are responsible for consistently creating shots for others. Before Phil came along as head coach, Scottie Pippen averaged 2.1apg and 3.5apg. With Phil, he averaged 6.4apg for his career. Who is to say that guys like Melo and Gallo couldn't step their games up in that respect?

mreinman @ 5/7/2014 1:57 AM
NardDogNation wrote:
mreinman wrote:
NardDogNation wrote:
mreinman wrote:You want a guy who has averaged 3 assists per game for his career as our starting PG? That is the worst passing starting 5 in NBA history.

Ron Harper averaged 3.9apg for his career, playing 4 seasons as Phil Jackson's PG. He has 4 rings to show for it.

As for the rest of the team, the Nuggets seemed to be good at moving the ball. I'm not sure why that would now become an issue, considering that we'd have half their team.

Geeeez - he was not the PG. Pippen and Jordan were - where do you think the assists came from?

OJ (3), Shump (2), Gallo (1.9) and Melo (3), Moz (0.5)

Sometimes I am not sure if you are kidding.

If you look at any official listing of those Bulls/Lakers starting lineups, Ron Harper is slated at "PG" spot. As I've said several dozen times, the PG in the triangle does not fulfill the prototypical role of a PG. That was the case for Ron Harper. That would be the case for OJ Mayo and why you, pointing out his assist per game numbers, makes no sense.

And to be fair, the numbers you are listing involve players, playing for different teams, in systems that are not the triangle. They are not bad passers, I just don't think they've been put in a system where they are responsible for consistently creating shots for others. Before Phil came along as head coach, Scottie Pippen averaged 2.1apg and 3.5apg. With Phil, he averaged 6.4apg for his career. Who is to say that guys like Melo and Gallo couldn't step their games up in that respect?

Ron Harper's assists went down a lot when he joined the triangle. He was averaging 5.5 on the clippers.

You are just going to assume that all these low rate assist men will now be zenified?

As I have said numerous times, we should be looking for highly efficient diamonds and picks not OJ Mayo's and their bloated salaries.

GustavBahler @ 5/7/2014 7:16 AM
Gallo cant stay on the floor Narddog.
yellowboy90 @ 5/7/2014 8:02 AM
I would try to bring Lin back only because their are not any other pgs available and having him under birds right would not be a bad idea. If he is not a starter he can return to back up status when the knicks have the cap room to get someone better.
CrushAlot @ 5/7/2014 9:07 AM
I wonder if the Knicks make a run at Vasquez. He is a free agent. Also, I think they bring Darius Morris in.
djsunyc @ 5/7/2014 10:27 AM
phil is here to try and deliver lebron or durant. if he fails, then he's gonna be no better than any other gm in nyc. triangle is a BS offense that can not succeed in the nba without top 5 hof type talent.
CrushAlot @ 5/7/2014 10:30 AM
djsunyc wrote:phil is here to try and deliver lebron or durant. if he fails, then he's gonna be no better than any other gm in nyc. triangle is a BS offense that can not succeed in the nba without top 5 hof type talent.
Do you think Ujiri resigns Vasquez?
djsunyc @ 5/7/2014 10:39 AM
CrushAlot wrote:
djsunyc wrote:phil is here to try and deliver lebron or durant. if he fails, then he's gonna be no better than any other gm in nyc. triangle is a BS offense that can not succeed in the nba without top 5 hof type talent.
Do you think Ujiri resigns Vasquez?

he wants him back and vasquez wants to be back. and i don't think anybody out there is going to offer him alot. but you never know.

the plan is to re-sign lowry + vasquez + patterson...but anything can happen.

vasquez, imho, has more value as a 6th man than a starting pg.

NYKBocker @ 5/7/2014 10:56 AM
You think Celtics will give away G. Wallace, Joel Anthony, Jeff Green and Brandon Bass for Amare?

You think Nuggets will give away Gallo, Wilson Chandler, Mozgov, Arthur, Lil Nate for Tyson and Jeff Green?

We only give Tyson, Amare, Bargs and Pablo and we get Gallo, Asik, Lin, The Mayor, Mozgov, G Wallace, Joel Anthony and Arthur? Do we get multiple picks too?

The basketball gods must love us then.

NardDogNation @ 5/7/2014 1:12 PM
NYKBocker wrote:You think Celtics will give away G. Wallace, Joel Anthony, Jeff Green and Brandon Bass for Amare?

You think Nuggets will give away Gallo, Wilson Chandler, Mozgov, Arthur, Lil Nate for Tyson and Jeff Green?

We only give Tyson, Amare, Bargs and Pablo and we get Gallo, Asik, Lin, The Mayor, Mozgov, G Wallace, Joel Anthony and Arthur? Do we get multiple picks too?

The basketball gods must love us then.

When did Gerald Wallace and Joel Anthony become anything more than bad contracts? And when did Jeff Green become anything more than an overglorified, overpaid role player? All 3 have been rumored to be on the block for the Celtics and only Brandon Bass was rumored to be able to draw assets in return.

And personally, I do think the Nuggets would give up that package for Jeff Green and Tyson Chandler. As I said before, Green is a comparable player to Wilson Chandler and Gallo but healthier. Chandler is an upgrade over Mozgov in most NBA circles (not my opinion though) and would serve more purpose for them as a mentor to McGee.

As opposed to trying to be a smart ass because you're butt hurt that I shit over your proposal, explain to me why these trades are not viable based on the market standards of the league.

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