NardDogNation wrote:On a side, does anyone still think that Anthony Randolph could still realize his potential? He had some point forward skills and was regarded as the next Lamar Odom before falling off the face of the Earth.
He's only 24. I don't know if I trust playmaking ability enough to take on a Pippen/Odom role, but his defense and rebounding are useful.
BigDaddyG wrote:NardDogNation wrote:On a side, does anyone still think that Anthony Randolph could still realize his potential? He had some point forward skills and was regarded as the next Lamar Odom before falling off the face of the Earth.
He's only 24. I don't know if I trust playmaking ability enough to take on a Pippen/Odom role, but his defense and rebounding are useful.
Agreed. I was watching a mix of the guy and it was incredible how versatile he was/is though. It would be nice to see him get a shot where he doesn't have several talented forwards ahead of him. I never realized it before but the guy was never really given a shot.
I also still like Royce White, who is an anxiety outbreak away from being a NBA starter. I love his game.
NardDogNation wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:NardDogNation wrote:On a side, does anyone still think that Anthony Randolph could still realize his potential? He had some point forward skills and was regarded as the next Lamar Odom before falling off the face of the Earth.
He's only 24. I don't know if I trust playmaking ability enough to take on a Pippen/Odom role, but his defense and rebounding are useful.
Agreed. I was watching a mix of the guy and it was incredible how versatile he was/is though. It would be nice to see him get a shot where he doesn't have several talented forwards ahead of him. I never realized it before but the guy was never really given a shot.
I also still like Royce White, who is an anxiety outbreak away from being a NBA starter. I love his game.
The dude has been so incosistent, i remember being so excited when walsh traded for AR, but he's garbage, especially from a mental stand point.
I think JR, amare and Melo, will thrive in a triangle offense
knicks1248 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:BigDaddyG wrote:NardDogNation wrote:On a side, does anyone still think that Anthony Randolph could still realize his potential? He had some point forward skills and was regarded as the next Lamar Odom before falling off the face of the Earth.
He's only 24. I don't know if I trust playmaking ability enough to take on a Pippen/Odom role, but his defense and rebounding are useful.
Agreed. I was watching a mix of the guy and it was incredible how versatile he was/is though. It would be nice to see him get a shot where he doesn't have several talented forwards ahead of him. I never realized it before but the guy was never really given a shot.
I also still like Royce White, who is an anxiety outbreak away from being a NBA starter. I love his game.
The dude has been so incosistent, i remember being so excited when walsh traded for AR, but he's garbage, especially from a mental stand point.
I think JR, amare and Melo, will thrive in a triangle offense
I was excited too when we traded for AR. In the training camp videos, he seemed to he pretty effective. Then, all of a sudden, D'Antoni rarely played him in the preseason and not at all during the season. I'm not sure what happened but given MDA's M.O. with players and his ridiculously short rotations, I shouldn't have been surprised. I don't think that this is necessarily a knock on Randolph's talent though.
Even his next destinations were not ideal. He went to a Wolves team with Kevin Love, Michael Beasley, Wesley Johnson, Corey Brewer, Anthony Tolliver and later Derrick Williams. After that, he ended up on a team with Danilo Gallinari, Nene, Wilson Chandler, Kenneth Faried and Jordan Hamilton on it. This season, Gallo's been hurt and Hamilton got traded away but they've added JJ Hickson and Darrell Arthur to gobble up the forward minutes. Knowing all of that, where was his minutes suppose to come from?
As for JR, "fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice.......look, the point is that you're not going to fool me."-George W. Bush. I refuse to be duped by JR into thinking that he'll ever be a key player for us.
AR sucks. Pretty simple. Has the physical tools but don't have the good. Six years in the league on potential? At some point you got it or you don't.
We are seeing the aftermath of teams "Not giving him a shot". Or, teams bringing in players because the light has not gone off. Based on the youtube scouting I too was excited about everyone being excited! The music, the highlights paint a great picture!!!
I wish the kid well. Im sure he'll get over his tenure under MDA in time for his comeback at age 32!
It's funny that a player like Diaw that was hardly noticed in the league before he got with MDA and he was given a role in which to shine and now is playing for a great coach in Pop. MDA does in fact know what he wants in his players and for the most part he wants High BB IQ players. I think Phil and Kerr would both want the same kind of players. Pop also continually adds High BB IQ players who have NBA skills but know how to think the game and that's why they function at such a high level. IF you keep adding smart players on top of smart players who have talent and NBA skills you can win big. Phil wants to remake this team in that mold and put them in the Triangle in order to foster team work.
I'm just curious to see who Phil adds to this mix in order to raise the IQ of the team. Kidd was that guy and we see how the brain drain effected the team. Man I'd LOVE to bring in Shaun Livingston. He's got the size and skills that you want in a Phil Jackson guard.
" . . . does anyone still think that Anthony Randolph could still realize his potential . . ."
In short, no. Maybe I'm missing something but . . . he's had years now to learn non-ball movement, basic footwork, rebounding, and so on and, doh, he's still a liability every time he steps on the court. I wouldn't touch him . . . unless he can show he's figured it out by averaging 20/20 for a year in the D League.
At what salary, for the vet min, it is a steal because of his age and "potential"
His current contract was 3 years for 6m, 2m each year, and for his physical abilities, it is a great risk/reward in my opinion
The guy for Phil to target is Shuan Livingston. He's a perfect PJax PG!!! The Nets can't offer him anything but the mini MLE 3 yrs $10mil. With some moves the Knicks can get below the cap and be able to offer the full MLE. Dallas wants Tyson so I'd do a trade for a pick. I'm sure they could figure out some other trade to get lower if needed.
nixluva wrote:The guy for Phil to target is Shuan Livingston. He's a perfect PJax PG!!! The Nets can't offer him anything but the mini MLE 3 yrs $10mil. With some moves the Knicks can get below the cap and be able to offer the full MLE. Dallas wants Tyson so I'd do a trade for a pick. I'm sure they could figure out some other trade to get lower if needed.
Agree about Livingston. I was hoping n j would have to choose between Blatche and Shaun but they have some form of bird rights on Blatche. Livingston is the guy Kidd waned so I would think getting him away from the nets would be hard.
nixluva wrote:The guy for Phil to target is Shuan Livingston. He's a perfect PJax PG!!! The Nets can't offer him anything but the mini MLE 3 yrs $10mil. With some moves the Knicks can get below the cap and be able to offer the full MLE. Dallas wants Tyson so I'd do a trade for a pick. I'm sure they could figure out some other trade to get lower if needed.
I really like Livingston a lot but can he shoot? I'm no triangle expert but I thought PG's had to be able to hit the three. Correct me if I'm wrong here.
As an aside: Man, that injury Livingston sustained was a major bummer. Imagine this guy had he not lost the freakish speed and athleticism.
CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:The guy for Phil to target is Shuan Livingston. He's a perfect PJax PG!!! The Nets can't offer him anything but the mini MLE 3 yrs $10mil. With some moves the Knicks can get below the cap and be able to offer the full MLE. Dallas wants Tyson so I'd do a trade for a pick. I'm sure they could figure out some other trade to get lower if needed.
Agree about Livingston. I was hoping n j would have to choose between Blatche and Shaun but they have some form of bird rights on Blatche. Livingston is the guy Kidd waned so I would think getting him away from the nets would be hard.
Brooklyn can't pay him more than the Mini MLE. I'm not sure if anyone will go above the Full MLE for him, but if Phil can convince him to come on board that would be great. The trick is gonna be getting below the Cap so we can pay him the Full MLE.
Trading Chandler, along with a cap-clogging guy like Felton or J.R. Smith, could get the Knicks below the luxury tax line with full MLE privileges restored if they take basically no money back in return. New York would probably want a late or heavily-protected first rounder in return, but the cap space would be the real prize.
If Phil can manage to trade 2 guys that would allow him to reshape the team even next year. It won't be easy, but I think this is what he has in mind.
nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:nixluva wrote:The guy for Phil to target is Shuan Livingston. He's a perfect PJax PG!!! The Nets can't offer him anything but the mini MLE 3 yrs $10mil. With some moves the Knicks can get below the cap and be able to offer the full MLE. Dallas wants Tyson so I'd do a trade for a pick. I'm sure they could figure out some other trade to get lower if needed.
Agree about Livingston. I was hoping n j would have to choose between Blatche and Shaun but they have some form of bird rights on Blatche. Livingston is the guy Kidd waned so I would think getting him away from the nets would be hard.
Brooklyn can't pay him more than the Mini MLE. I'm not sure if anyone will go above the Full MLE for him, but if Phil can convince him to come on board that would be great. The trick is gonna be getting below the Cap so we can pay him the Full MLE.
Trading Chandler, along with a cap-clogging guy like Felton or J.R. Smith, could get the Knicks below the luxury tax line with full MLE privileges restored if they take basically no money back in return. New York would probably want a late or heavily-protected first rounder in return, but the cap space would be the real prize.
If Phil can manage to trade 2 guys that would allow him to reshape the team even next year. It won't be easy, but I think this is what he has in mind.
Livinston was over used tonight and he really hurt his team by not being able to shoot a 3. Lots of forcing the issue.
I don't think i want any player who can't shoot a 3 consistantly in this era of basketball
You guys are overstating the point about shooting the 3. The thing with the Triangle is to create high % looks and I think that you don't HAVE to shoot 3's if you're running your plays right. Get the ball up the court quickly and start your sets early so you have time to run thru your progressions and keep the defense moving. Shuan would be more of the Ron Harper version of Phil PG. Ron Harper was NEVER a good 3pt shooter for Phil. His role tho was still very important and it's how I see Shuan playing.
The point of Livingston is to have a big guard who can easily make the entry pass and when he cuts he's a legit threat to score inside and draw defenders. Then you also have another Post threat in the Triple Post offense which is the original name of the Triangle. It's about creating as many mismatches as possible and in that regard Livingston would give you a guard the size of a forward who can post as well as drive. You also get more length on D. The 3 is a safety valve and not a feature like in the SSOL or other spread offenses. The Triangle is more about shots closer to the basket and the space is to allow that to happen and force the defense to cover more ground on every threat inside or out.
nixluva wrote:You guys are overstating the point about shooting the 3. The thing with the Triangle is to create high % looks and I think that you don't HAVE to shoot 3's if you're running your plays right. Get the ball up the court quickly and start your sets early so you have time to run thru your progressions and keep the defense moving. Shuan would be more of the Ron Harper version of Phil PG. Ron Harper was NEVER a good 3pt shooter for Phil. His role tho was still very important and it's how I see Shuan playing.The point of Livingston is to have a big guard who can easily make the entry pass and when he cuts he's a legit threat to score inside and draw defenders. Then you also have another Post threat in the Triple Post offense which is the original name of the Triangle. It's about creating as many mismatches as possible and in that regard Livingston would give you a guard the size of a forward who can post as well as drive. You also get more length on D. The 3 is a safety valve and not a feature like in the SSOL or other spread offenses. The Triangle is more about shots closer to the basket and the space is to allow that to happen and force the defense to cover more ground on every threat inside or out.
That conner and elbow 3 is open on a regular in the triangle, kerr made his leaving from mostly those two spots in the triangle, along with harper, bj armstrong, paxon, fisher, horry, even kobe and mj loved that elbow 3 the list is endless.
I here what your saying Nix, but you have to have serious 3 point threats to keep defenses honest, to spread the floor, which is key in any offense let alone the triangle.
I also think Melo with his ability, to post, shoot, 3's, pass, mid range game..Prime mvp candidate in the triangle
knicks1248 wrote:I also think Melo with his ability, to post, shoot, 3's, pass, mid range game..Prime mvp candidate in the triangle
+1. I wish we made this switch earlier because Melo and the Knicks would have greatly benefited from it.
knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:You guys are overstating the point about shooting the 3. The thing with the Triangle is to create high % looks and I think that you don't HAVE to shoot 3's if you're running your plays right. Get the ball up the court quickly and start your sets early so you have time to run thru your progressions and keep the defense moving. Shuan would be more of the Ron Harper version of Phil PG. Ron Harper was NEVER a good 3pt shooter for Phil. His role tho was still very important and it's how I see Shuan playing.The point of Livingston is to have a big guard who can easily make the entry pass and when he cuts he's a legit threat to score inside and draw defenders. Then you also have another Post threat in the Triple Post offense which is the original name of the Triangle. It's about creating as many mismatches as possible and in that regard Livingston would give you a guard the size of a forward who can post as well as drive. You also get more length on D. The 3 is a safety valve and not a feature like in the SSOL or other spread offenses. The Triangle is more about shots closer to the basket and the space is to allow that to happen and force the defense to cover more ground on every threat inside or out.
That conner and elbow 3 is open on a regular in the triangle, kerr made his leaving from mostly those two spots in the triangle, along with harper, bj armstrong, paxon, fisher, horry, even kobe and mj loved that elbow 3 the list is endless.
I here what your saying Nix, but you have to have serious 3 point threats to keep defenses honest, to spread the floor, which is key in any offense let alone the triangle.
I'm not saying the 3 isn't important. Of course it is. I have been pointing out that Phil has always had 3pt shooters on his squads, but you have to also recognize that he had Harper in the mix for YEARS and it worked. We have THJ and I fully expect that we'll have enough 3pt shooting as long as Kerr and Phil are here. However, defense is just as important and that is a huge part of why Phil likes bigger teams and a ball handler like Livingston would make perfect sense. Phil has had those big ball handlers on all of his teams. Guys like Shump and Livingston would fit into what Phil wants to do defensively too.
Shump can now be the PG. He has size, likes the corner 3 and can defend.
nixluva wrote:knicks1248 wrote:nixluva wrote:You guys are overstating the point about shooting the 3. The thing with the Triangle is to create high % looks and I think that you don't HAVE to shoot 3's if you're running your plays right. Get the ball up the court quickly and start your sets early so you have time to run thru your progressions and keep the defense moving. Shuan would be more of the Ron Harper version of Phil PG. Ron Harper was NEVER a good 3pt shooter for Phil. His role tho was still very important and it's how I see Shuan playing.The point of Livingston is to have a big guard who can easily make the entry pass and when he cuts he's a legit threat to score inside and draw defenders. Then you also have another Post threat in the Triple Post offense which is the original name of the Triangle. It's about creating as many mismatches as possible and in that regard Livingston would give you a guard the size of a forward who can post as well as drive. You also get more length on D. The 3 is a safety valve and not a feature like in the SSOL or other spread offenses. The Triangle is more about shots closer to the basket and the space is to allow that to happen and force the defense to cover more ground on every threat inside or out.
That conner and elbow 3 is open on a regular in the triangle, kerr made his leaving from mostly those two spots in the triangle, along with harper, bj armstrong, paxon, fisher, horry, even kobe and mj loved that elbow 3 the list is endless.
I here what your saying Nix, but you have to have serious 3 point threats to keep defenses honest, to spread the floor, which is key in any offense let alone the triangle.
I'm not saying the 3 isn't important. Of course it is. I have been pointing out that Phil has always had 3pt shooters on his squads, but you have to also recognize that he had Harper in the mix for YEARS and it worked. We have THJ and I fully expect that we'll have enough 3pt shooting as long as Kerr and Phil are here. However, defense is just as important and that is a huge part of why Phil likes bigger teams and a ball handler like Livingston would make perfect sense. Phil has had those big ball handlers on all of his teams. Guys like Shump and Livingston would fit into what Phil wants to do defensively too.
Lets stop believing shump can ever be a real pg or even a part time one. We saw this guy turn fast breaks into half court plays more than any player in the league. The euro step in which we saw him practice 2 summers ago, was completly non exsisting, IQ, ball handling, avg at best. Livinginston has always been a solid ball handler, but he perimeter game is ugly and depended on the make up of the rest of the team, i don't see him being a +.
