Knicks · whats the most we could offer Patty Mills? (page 2)

LivingLegend wrote:

fishmike wrote:He's poised to really break out at 25 years old. I dont think we have a full MLE do we? He would def be worth it. I think Briggs mentioned him in the past also. Would be a great upgrade at PG. He's going to get some good offers though... I would think 3 years $18mm range.

Isn't he being exposed somewhat in the playoffs?

I see a quick little guy who is a shoot first guy and he is someone who is getting most of his shots off the Spurs offense and playing with lots of other weapons.

If you take him out of that system -- you have a smallish PG who really isn't a passer and who could be exposed significantly playing in another system.

I get it - he's intriguing but at the same time -- I think we are seeing a product of the super Spurs offensive flow/system.

your right on all points... but thats why we are discussing adding a guy for $3mm a year but has upside

You nailed it. Can he become a true facilitator? Good think though is triangle isnt a PG run offense where the PG is truely a QB, so the hope is a guy who is already a good scorer and can get in the lane and break down his man and is young can take it to the next level.

What I like:
Good % shooter for a guard. 45% FGs and 40% from 3
2:1 assist to TO, and he takes care of the ball
Can break down his man off the dribble and get into the lane

Last year when Felton or any guard shot the ball well we were pretty good.

Im thinking low cost high impact (potentially)

Yeah there is really no downside to adding Mills to the Knicks when compared to Felton. Throw in the triangle system and you have another reason why he might be a good fit. I think Fisher never avg over 4 1/2 ast.

We throwing pasta at the wall and seeing what sticks..........

Sure, Patty Mills. Do I want a 5-9 guy? Not really. I like the guy, like the "Patty" and all that good Irish reference despite the kid is an Aussie! Double cool!

We see the kid in the finals and its like "hey, what about him"?

Or This guy?
Or I'd rather this guy?
Etc, etc..........

Then its like "oooow, I said this guy would be good!!!!" But you said it about ten guys!!!

Sometimes you only get on chance with one guy! Thats the real world!

And nobody on the internet is accountable!

Nalod wrote:We throwing pasta at the wall and seeing what sticks..........

Sure, Patty Mills. Do I want a 5-9 guy? Not really. I like the guy, like the "Patty" and all that good Irish reference despite the kid is an Aussie! Double cool!

We see the kid in the finals and its like "hey, what about him"?

Or This guy?
Or I'd rather this guy?
Etc, etc..........

Then its like "oooow, I said this guy would be good!!!!" But you said it about ten guys!!!

Sometimes you only get on chance with one guy! Thats the real world!

And nobody on the internet is accountable!

That's the point guard position in a nutshell. There are a handful of guys who are "elite," followed by a bunch of flawed vets and young prospects. I'm convinced that we need to nab a solid PG prospect in next year's draft, regardless of who our point guard is for the 2014-2015 season. Charlie Ward is the last PG that we developed for chrissakes! Going into next season, we definitely need an upgrade over Felton. Patty can score and run the pick and roll, but his defense is questionable and his playmaking is suspect. Is that enough to get us into the playoffs next season? I think so, but I think Sessions and Collison could do the same thing. But we're always going to experience this same rollercoaster at point guard until the front office takes the time to seriously address the issue.

Iman Shumpert

gunsnewing wrote:Iman Shumpert

Wouldn't mnd giving him spot minutes to see how he takes to things in the triangle. But there's no way I'd feel comfortable handing him the job from he get go. We still need to bring someone in.

Nalod wrote:We throwing pasta at the wall and seeing what sticks..........

Sure, Patty Mills. Do I want a 5-9 guy? Not really. I like the guy, like the "Patty" and all that good Irish reference despite the kid is an Aussie! Double cool!

We see the kid in the finals and its like "hey, what about him"?

Or This guy?
Or I'd rather this guy?
Etc, etc..........

Then its like "oooow, I said this guy would be good!!!!" But you said it about ten guys!!!

Sometimes you only get on chance with one guy! Thats the real world!

And nobody on the internet is accountable!

Mills, Collison and more recently Livingston have been the guys talked about for awhile to replace Felton. It will be interesting to see what Phil does. I think there are a lot of options out there.

I prefer Collison over Mills though I would not be disappointed as long as we upgrade

At this point, buying out both Pablo and Felton if unable to trade them would be perfect for us to reshape the roster/philosophy
Looking to add PG with the deep draft his summer for many PG's and SG's with good ceilings, possibly 2nd rounders early to late, and undrafted
Most importantly getting the assistant coaches, development coaches, and trainers to WORK TOGETHER in developing players especially PG's with Ron Harper in a position

Spencer Dwinwiddie
DeAndre Kane
Kendall Williams

Delon Wright *might not enter draft*, is a junior and brother of NBA sharpshooter Dorell Wright

all of the above are PHIL JACKSON type PG's, I would love to grab all 3 or 2/3 if possible, fully investing on their development with high character veterans to help mentor/guide them
Likely one or 2 could drop to undrafted to late 2nd rounders

eithers to possibly drop include

Russ Smith
Jahii Carson
Aaron Craft

Burton *not a PHIL JACKSON type PG*, a scoring combo guard but has lottery potential with the combination of supreme athleticism, explosiveness, strength, ability to take contact/penetrate/and FINISH, I see him as a late 1st rounder to early 2nd rounder type potential that is currently in the mid/late draft, dropping since the earlier mocks

possible cheap options with 2nd year team options

Darrius Morris/Tourre Murry *never saw enough of him to truly say if we can fully invest in him*
Kendall Marshall *likely would need more than the vet min as his stock might have rose*

need trades but both Pelicans PG's in

Pierre Jackson
Brian Roberts

Would have interest in both Norris Cole and Patrick Beverely, however I don't think they would be on the market, and I would not be willing to pay a premium for them either

Darren Collison
Mills

Livingston

likely to cost more 3.2m - full MLE

Sessions
Bayless

Greviez Vasquez/Lowry *likely Toronto would keep 1*

In addition, I agree with Briggs, I love Backniski, he could be a huge steal in the draft
I see him as a more mobile Lopez brothers/ Steven Adams *less built*, but has a great all round game, multiple skill sets, and great size/athleticism

I also would love to get some players like

SF's (think would be solid role players like becoming a Matt Barnes/Tony Allen)
===========================================================================================

KC McDaniels
DeAndre Daniels
Thanasis Antetokounmpo

SG (though we are already deepest in this position)
=========================================================
Bogdan Bogdanovic (a sharp shooter, could be used in ANY SYSTEM)

F/s
======================
Cory Jefferson
Dwight Powell
Jarnell Stokes

F/C
=============
Backnaski
Alec Brown *comparable to Byron Mullens/AB, of course younger and could develop better with the right staff*

1st rounders
===================
Adrieyne Payne and Aaron Gordon if they fall to the mid/late 1st rounders if we trade CA, possibly trading 1 1st rounder for multiple 2nd rounders, along with purchasing/trading for other 2nd rounders with the right price/risk/reward

UFAs for vet mins
========================

Jamalle Haggins *undrafted last season, was a 4 year consistent player as a good rebounder/shot blocker/post presence/all round skills/good foot work and very mobile, comparable to a young Kmart/Trevor Booker *who also might be available for a the vet min with Blairre*

Trevor Booker

Sefelosha

James Johnson *solid SF/PF cheap defender that is still young*

Chris Johnson/Greg Stimensa *athletic cheap shot blockers*

Dejuan Bliarre

Darko Milicic *still young and fits the triangle with his all round skill set*

*IN GENERAL, not interested in OLDER PG's, I believe you need speed/quickness, though someone like Ridnour/Blake could also be good locker room vets*

fishmike wrote:

SupremeCommander wrote:Kate Upton -- or are we saving her for LeBron?

phuck Lebron. He's awful. A title with him here doesnt excite me. Have to be honest. Much prefer to beat him. Patty Mills is obviously that piece we need.

100%

I don't really see why people are enamoured over him or Collison. Everyone wanted Sessions a while ago too. They are fringe starters and nothing more than stop gaps in my opinion. We likely won't be able to get either of them with 3 mill cap space either. And Aldrich is easily replaceable. He's just another body. We need some good players, a lot more talent but I don't think any of these options are the right answer. Collison looked pretty turribel in Dallas. Having a good point could solve a number of issues but I'm not getting my hopes up over a bunch of backup players honestly. These guys seem to simply be the flavor of the month.

tj23 wrote:I don't really see why people are enamoured over him or Collison. Everyone wanted Sessions a while ago too. They are fringe starters and nothing more than stop gaps in my opinion. We likely won't be able to get either of them with 3 mill cap space either. And Aldrich is easily replaceable. He's just another body. We need some good players, a lot more talent but I don't think any of these options are the right answer. Collison looked pretty turribel in Dallas. Having a good point could solve a number of issues but I'm not getting my hopes up over a bunch of backup players honestly. These guys seem to simply be the flavor of the month.

I agree these guys only seem like huge upgrades because watching Felton (and any of our other supposed "PG's" for that matter) last year was the equivalent of PG Hari Kiri. It was painful, it was awful, I almost clawed out my eyes.

Collison, Mills, Sessions, these guys are not the key to contention in the east. We are not in a good position next year and the team should just tank for a high pick in 2015. Then the team will have a high pick plus 2 max slots (if Melo walks) or a high pick, Melo, plus another max slot. It sucks waiting a year but it's for the best.

tj23 wrote:I don't really see why people are enamoured over him or Collison. Everyone wanted Sessions a while ago too. They are fringe starters and nothing more than stop gaps in my opinion. We likely won't be able to get either of them with 3 mill cap space either. And Aldrich is easily replaceable. He's just another body. We need some good players, a lot more talent but I don't think any of these options are the right answer. Collison looked pretty turribel in Dallas. Having a good point could solve a number of issues but I'm not getting my hopes up over a bunch of backup players honestly. These guys seem to simply be the flavor of the month.

I agree. I hope Phil targets one guy at any position that he thinks can help for the future not just next season with the exception and then brings in a bunch of free agents and undrafted rookies to look at and give a shot to. There isn't enough in place to go with a temporary fix for the present.

CrushAlot wrote:

tj23 wrote:I don't really see why people are enamoured over him or Collison. Everyone wanted Sessions a while ago too. They are fringe starters and nothing more than stop gaps in my opinion. We likely won't be able to get either of them with 3 mill cap space either. And Aldrich is easily replaceable. He's just another body. We need some good players, a lot more talent but I don't think any of these options are the right answer. Collison looked pretty turribel in Dallas. Having a good point could solve a number of issues but I'm not getting my hopes up over a bunch of backup players honestly. These guys seem to simply be the flavor of the month.

I agree. I hope Phil targets one guy at any position that he thinks can help for the future not just next season with the exception and then brings in a bunch of free agents and undrafted rookies to look at and give a shot to. There isn't enough in place to go with a temporary fix for the present.

I dunno man -- I look at these guys a little differently I guess. We need stability and an upgrade at the position. That's obvious, I think we'd all agree. Gotta look at who's out there and what we can afford...Both guys are only in their mid 20s (a lot of basketball ahead of them), both guys are efficient offensive players, both guys can move the ball and do everything that's required within the triangle (if you watch Mills closely, for all his offensive prowess, he's always looking to move the ball to open men and make the right play--and he's good at it too), both guys also possess good speed, can get out and run in transition and break down guys off the dribble and get inside when the need arises. I don't know if I see either guy as a stopgap -- I see a couple of guys that would be good bang for the buck at 3 yrs/$10+mm (the most we can offer a FA this off-season with the mini-MLE). Who knows, it might not even take that much -- maybe we could get one or the other for less than that... Worst case scenario: either lives up to that contract and is an upgrade over Felton & Prigioni. Both guys are serviceable known quantities and at $3mm a year say, could always be moved if need be (that's not really a ton of money when you think about it -- teams throw that kind of money around trying to buy high 2nd round picks). Best case: Armed with starter minutes, either guy could very well blow up a-la Kyle Lowry in Toronto this year (maybe better), become an all-star/borderline all-star, be incredible bang for the buck and be a guy we wish to lock up long-term on a 2nd contract. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder -- I'm 'glass half full' on both guys.

Regarding Collison, as someone else pointed out, he does hold a team option to return to the Clippers for $1,985,500. Ya figure it would take an offer of at least $2.5mm/year over 2-3 yrs AND possibly a guarantee to become the starting PG to even get him to consider declining his option and coming to play here. Mills is an unrestricted FA. Shaun Livingston and Jerryd Bayless are intriguing options if we whiffed on Mills and Collison. The top 3 FA PGs I feel could have that 'Lowry effect' of suddenly blossoming into a real nice player if given more responsibility are Mills, Collison and Bayless...After that, I consider every other FA PG in our price range pretty much fringe and/or too long in the tooth (not counting league minimum guys like Seth Curry, Darius Morris, Kalin Lucas etc. -- we need to consider guys like this too for additional depth)...And just thinking out loud ---> after that, next FA PG on my list might be Shaun Livingston. I thought he looked very good at times this year for Brooklyn. For all you triangle guys that would like to see a bigger PG -- imagine a backcourt infusion of this versatile guard trio: Shaun Livingston, Spencer Dinwiddie and Terrence Williams.

Finestrg wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

tj23 wrote:I don't really see why people are enamoured over him or Collison. Everyone wanted Sessions a while ago too. They are fringe starters and nothing more than stop gaps in my opinion. We likely won't be able to get either of them with 3 mill cap space either. And Aldrich is easily replaceable. He's just another body. We need some good players, a lot more talent but I don't think any of these options are the right answer. Collison looked pretty turribel in Dallas. Having a good point could solve a number of issues but I'm not getting my hopes up over a bunch of backup players honestly. These guys seem to simply be the flavor of the month.

I agree. I hope Phil targets one guy at any position that he thinks can help for the future not just next season with the exception and then brings in a bunch of free agents and undrafted rookies to look at and give a shot to. There isn't enough in place to go with a temporary fix for the present.

I dunno man -- I look at these guys a little differently I guess. We need stability and an upgrade at the position. That's obvious, I think we'd all agree. Gotta look at who's out there and what we can afford...Both guys are only in their mid 20s (a lot of basketball ahead of them), both guys are efficient offensive players, both guys can move the ball and do everything that's required within the triangle (if you watch Mills closely, for all his offensive prowess, he's always looking to move the ball to open men and make the right play--and he's good at it too), both guys also possess good speed, can get out and run in transition and break down guys off the dribble and get inside when the need arises. I don't know if I see either guy as a stopgap -- I see a couple of guys that would be good bang for the buck at 3 yrs/$10+mm (the most we can offer a FA this off-season with the mini-MLE). Who knows, it might not even take that much -- maybe we could get one or the other for less than that... Worst case scenario: either lives up to that contract and is an upgrade over Felton & Prigioni. Both guys are serviceable known quantities and at $3mm a year say, could always be moved if need be (that's not really a ton of money when you think about it -- teams throw that kind of money around trying to buy high 2nd round picks). Best case: Armed with starter minutes, either guy could very well blow up a-la Kyle Lowry in Toronto this year (maybe better), become an all-star/borderline all-star, be incredible bang for the buck and be a guy we wish to lock up long-term on a 2nd contract. I guess beauty is in the eye of the beholder -- I'm 'glass half full' on both guys.

Regarding Collison, as someone else pointed out, he does hold a team option to return to the Clippers for $1,985,500. Ya figure it would take an offer of at least $2.5mm/year over 2-3 yrs AND possibly a guarantee to become the starting PG to even get him to consider declining his option and coming to play here. Mills is an unrestricted FA. Shaun Livingston and Jerryd Bayless are intriguing options if we whiffed on Mills and Collison. The top 3 FA PGs I feel could have that 'Lowry effect' of suddenly blossoming into a real nice player if given more responsibility are Mills, Collison and Bayless...After that, I consider every other FA PG in our price range pretty much fringe and/or too long in the tooth (not counting league minimum guys like Seth Curry, Darius Morris, Kalin Lucas etc. -- we need to consider guys like this too for additional depth)...And just thinking out loud ---> after that, next FA PG on my list might be Shaun Livingston. I thought he looked very good at times this year for Brooklyn. For all you triangle guys that would like to see a bigger PG -- imagine a backcourt infusion of this versatile guard trio: Shaun Livingston, Spencer Dinwiddie and Terrence Williams.

Darius Morris and Terrence Williams could be brought in on vet mini deals. PJax could then focus on his 'guy' that he thinks will be a part of the future.

Just curious what you guys think --

Rank the following 3 guys and tell me why. Then tell me how high you'd be willing to go in order to bring them in here:

Patty Mills
Darren Collison
Jerryd Bayless
Shaun Livingston

Finestrg wrote:Just curious what you guys think --

Rank the following 3 guys and tell me why. Then tell me how high you'd be willing to go in order to bring them in here:

Patty Mills
Darren Collison
Jerryd Bayless
Shaun Livingston

1) Collison -- solid three-point shooter who does a good job staying in front of PGs on defense, but struggles in size and strength matchups. He can really push the ball and is adept at running the pick and roll. Solid shooter, but a so,so finisher. More of a shoot first PG.

2) Patty Mills -- Really good scorer who can hit the three and run the pick and roll, penetrate and finish at the rim. Weak defensively and playmaking skill are suspect. Weak defender. Benefits from playing in a Spurs offense that flanks him with other shooters and passers.

3) Shaun Livingston--Smart, tall guard who can post up and pass over the defense. Good defender, but poor shooter. He isn't really scorer. Health will always be a concern due to his history of knee injuries.

4) Jarryd Bayless-- Strong, athletic combo guard capable of creating his own shot and attacking the rim. Just an average three-point shooter. Has never been more than just decent finishing at the rim, despite his athleticism. Isn't really a playmaker and is a weak defender. Easily gets lost on screens.

Good job bigdaddyg....That's what she said

Patty Mills isnt a starter either. He looks good because of his usage and role. You cant walk into to just looking for a "Felton" replacement. the teams a steady reliable starter.

EnySpree wrote:Good job bigdaddyg....That's what she said

Lol yeah, I was waiting to unload that line and you took that away from me Thanks Eny

BigDaddyG wrote:

Finestrg wrote:Just curious what you guys think --

Rank the following 3 guys and tell me why. Then tell me how high you'd be willing to go in order to bring them in here:

Patty Mills
Darren Collison
Jerryd Bayless
Shaun Livingston

1) Collison -- solid three-point shooter who does a good job staying in front of PGs on defense, but struggles in size and strength matchups. He can really push the ball and is adept at running the pick and roll. Solid shooter, but a so,so finisher. More of a shoot first PG.

2) Patty Mills -- Really good scorer who can hit the three and run the pick and roll, penetrate and finish at the rim. Weak defensively and playmaking skill are suspect. Weak defender. Benefits from playing in a Spurs offense that flanks him with other shooters and passers.

3) Shaun Livingston--Smart, tall guard who can post up and pass over the defense. Good defender, but poor shooter. He isn't really scorer. Health will always be a concern due to his history of knee injuries.

4) Jarryd Bayless-- Strong, athletic combo guard capable of creating his own shot and attacking the rim. Just an average three-point shooter. Has never been more than just decent finishing at the rim, despite his athleticism. Isn't really a playmaker and is a weak defender. Easily gets lost on screens.

Interesting take and thanks for responding.

I tell ya what man, I've been fixated on Mills and Collison for so long that I overlooked Bayless being a FA too. I like that kid a lot. Always have. He might be at the top of my wish list now. I know there are things that will give most pause: 5 teams in 6 seasons; hasn't done much as a pro yet; the shoot first mentality; the small arms; etc. but I'd like to focus on the positives: still has considerable upside, probably the most pound for pound out of the above 4; athleticism, speed, ball-handling etc. is all top notch; dude's a good competitor that will take it right at guys and won't back down; youngest of the above 4 (both he and Mills are 25--Bayless was born about 2 weeks earlier; I for one actually like a scorer's mentality in a PG---now I know he's a little trigger happy but the boy can score--I'd like to put that to work for us--we need more scoring options with or without Melo. The more people on the floor that can put the ball in the hole, the better (better pure scorer than Patty Mills even out of these 4 guys); at 6'3" can play some 2G if we ever decided to pair him up with another gifted passer in the backcourt (Darius Morris? Even a guy like T-Will who's an outstanding ball-handler and passer for a SG, Spencer Dinwiddie, etc.); and last but not least, he can set up others even though his 1st instinct is to score the ball... Compared to Lowry, I actually like Bayless' raw talent and physical tools even better. If Lowry can raise his game to the level he did last year with the increased PT and responsibility, I think this kid absolutely could. He just needs that chance. What's the worst case scenario here -- we give him 3 yrs/$10.5mm to be a rotation player, a very good scorer off the bench and a good ball-handler capable of playing PG for stretches w/o a doubt...Best case is he's a late bloomer that finally puts it all together and turns into a star in NY. He certainly has the talent for it. I feel Collison and Mills can duplicate what Lowry did in Toronto this year but feel Bayless might have the best shot of getting there out of the 3. My whole thinking here is let's see if we can get a guy for a modest amount of money, give him ample PT and then see if he can really shine and exceed expectations. Look at the Yankees with Yangervis Solarte -- we could use a little luck like that.