Ginobili has always made his teammates better. Far better player.
Manu and it's not even close. While their raw numbers might look similar take a deeper look. Manu's career FG% is 45%, Crawford shot that well for a season only twice, is a career 41% shooter, and shot under 40% four times. Manu's career 2fg% is 50%; Crawford has never shot that well from 2. Manu's career 3fg% is 37%; Crawford's is 35%. Their assist numbers are similar but Manu's a better rebounder. If you're into advanced stats Manu blows Crawford out of the water in PER, ORtg, DRtg, WS, and WS/48.
And that's just really talking about offense, defensively it's also no contest. Manu was never going to win DPOY or be named to the All-Defensive team but he can handle himself out there. Crawford is god-awful on defense; easily as bad as Harden.
tj23 wrote:Ginobili has always made his teammates better. Far better player.
That's such a canard. Players don't make other players better. At the end of the day, you can create all the daylight you want for a teammate, it still doesn't mean he'll make the shot. You can't rebound for them or play defense for them either.
VCoug wrote:Manu and it's not even close. While their raw numbers might look similar take a deeper look. Manu's career FG% is 45%, Crawford shot that well for a season only twice, is a career 41% shooter, and shot under 40% four times. Manu's career 2fg% is 50%; Crawford has never shot that well from 2. Manu's career 3fg% is 37%; Crawford's is 35%. Their assist numbers are similar but Manu's a better rebounder. If you're into advanced stats Manu blows Crawford out of the water in PER, ORtg, DRtg, WS, and WS/48. And that's just really talking about offense, defensively it's also no contest. Manu was never going to win DPOY or be named to the All-Defensive team but he can handle himself out there. Crawford is god-awful on defense; easily as bad as Harden.
Fair but when I've looked at Ginobili and his game I've consistently come away with the impression that he is a product of the system and personnel. He's well beyond his prime at this point but it still blows my mind how many "dumb" plays he makes. Fortunately for him, he operates in an environment where that can be overlooked because of how successful/talented the team is. I can't help but feel that if the roles were reversed and Crawford was the third guy on that team since 2000, he would assume the same stature (including the advanced stats edge)as Ginobili. Unfortunately for Crawford, he's played on bum teams and for coaches that had no idea of how to use him properly.
VCoug wrote:Manu and it's not even close. While their raw numbers might look similar take a deeper look. Manu's career FG% is 45%, Crawford shot that well for a season only twice, is a career 41% shooter, and shot under 40% four times. Manu's career 2fg% is 50%; Crawford has never shot that well from 2. Manu's career 3fg% is 37%; Crawford's is 35%. Their assist numbers are similar but Manu's a better rebounder. If you're into advanced stats Manu blows Crawford out of the water in PER, ORtg, DRtg, WS, and WS/48. And that's just really talking about offense, defensively it's also no contest. Manu was never going to win DPOY or be named to the All-Defensive team but he can handle himself out there. Crawford is god-awful on defense; easily as bad as Harden.
Yeah, I have to agree. Many had a stretch where he was arguably the second best two-guard in the league for a number of years. Duncan, Ginobli and Parker's numbers suffer because of Pop's minutes restrictions. To be fair, it's probably helped to extend their careers, but I think some people will hold their overall numbers against them when their careers are over.
this is not a serious question
You mean better at something other than basketball? Because that's the only way this could be a serious question.
markvmc wrote:You mean better at something other than basketball? Because that's the only way this could be a serious question.
Clever. Would you even say that Ginobli is better than Crawford, present-day?
If Crawford spent his career with the Spurs under Pop then his standing would be a lot higher.
markvmc wrote:NardDogNation wrote:markvmc wrote:You mean better at something other than basketball? Because that's the only way this could be a serious question.
Clever. Would you even say that Ginobli is better than Crawford, present-day?
Yes. Without a doubt.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Even though the Spurs trumped Miami, this guy looked horrible. You'll give me the argument that he's conforming his game to further a winning strategy, while Crawford has free reign to put up gawdy numbers. But looking at Ginobili play, he consistently bricks shots on poor form, loses the ball on unforced errors and makes really dumb passes. His skillset allows him to have a breakout game but Ginobili has gotten that JR status in my eyes. If Crawford had Popovich and co., we'd be having a different conversation about his career because he does everything Ginobili can do.
NardDogNation wrote:tj23 wrote:Ginobili has always made his teammates better. Far better player.
That's such a canard. Players don't make other players better. At the end of the day, you can create all the daylight you want for a teammate, it still doesn't mean he'll make the shot. You can't rebound for them or play defense for them either.
If you don't like the way I phrased it fine. Ginobili creates far better looks for his teammates. Crawford is simply a scorer who takes a lot more questionable shots than Manu.
tj23 wrote:NardDogNation wrote:tj23 wrote:Ginobili has always made his teammates better. Far better player.
That's such a canard. Players don't make other players better. At the end of the day, you can create all the daylight you want for a teammate, it still doesn't mean he'll make the shot. You can't rebound for them or play defense for them either.
If you don't like the way I phrased it fine. Ginobili creates far better looks for his teammates. Crawford is simply a scorer who takes a lot more questionable shots than Manu.
Jamal Crawford was a former PG and despite having the ball far less, is still averaging 3.2apg. I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you again.
When Ginobli went to the rim you know that he might set up one of his teammates, instead of shooting. With Crawford you knew that he was shooting, didn't matter if there wasn't a good look.
VCoug wrote:Manu and it's not even close. While their raw numbers might look similar take a deeper look. Manu's career FG% is 45%, Crawford shot that well for a season only twice, is a career 41% shooter, and shot under 40% four times. Manu's career 2fg% is 50%; Crawford has never shot that well from 2. Manu's career 3fg% is 37%; Crawford's is 35%. Their assist numbers are similar but Manu's a better rebounder. If you're into advanced stats Manu blows Crawford out of the water in PER, ORtg, DRtg, WS, and WS/48. And that's just really talking about offense, defensively it's also no contest. Manu was never going to win DPOY or be named to the All-Defensive team but he can handle himself out there. Crawford is god-awful on defense; easily as bad as Harden.
All of that and Manu has a brain.
Dude killed it in Europe and now has 4 rings.
Craw was super talented and at one time had the distinction of being the longest tenured NBA player to have never won a Playoff games.
Craw iso talents are very extreme and he is a very good player. Different types. Manu make great cuts, gets open, and makes great passes. Craw is fantastic Iso player!
Manu is Manu.
NardDogNation wrote:markvmc wrote:NardDogNation wrote:markvmc wrote:You mean better at something other than basketball? Because that's the only way this could be a serious question.
Clever. Would you even say that Ginobli is better than Crawford, present-day?
Yes. Without a doubt.
I disagree wholeheartedly. Even though the Spurs trumped Miami, this guy looked horrible. You'll give me the argument that he's conforming his game to further a winning strategy, while Crawford has free reign to put up gawdy numbers. But looking at Ginobili play, he consistently bricks shots on poor form, loses the ball on unforced errors and makes really dumb passes. His skillset allows him to have a breakout game but Ginobili has gotten that JR status in my eyes. If Crawford had Popovich and co., we'd be having a different conversation about his career because he does everything Ginobili can do.
I don't understand your argument. Ginobili is a better career shooter from 2 and 3 than Crawford is. Manu is a career 50% shooter from 2 vs 44% for Crawford; Manu is a career 37% shooter from 3 compared to 35% for Crawford. Their career turnover numbers are nearly identical, 2/game for Crawford vs 2.1/game for Manu, as are their assists, 3.7/game for Crawford vs 4/game for Manu.
As for looking terrible in the Finals. Manu 13ppg, 3rpg, and 4.5apg while shooting 48 fg% and 38 3fg%. That doesn't include tonight's game when he put up 19 points, 4 rebounds and assists, shooting 6-11 from the field and 3-6 from 3.
This past season, when Manu is 36 and Crawford is 33, Manu put up 12ppg, 3rpg, 4apg, 46 fg%, 55 2fg%, and 34 3fg%. Crawford put up 18ppg, 2rpg, 3apg, 41 fg%, 46 2fg%, and 36 3fg%. And Crawford played 30mpg vs 22mpg for Manu.
Can't be serious --- god please say your not serious.
VCoug wrote:Manu and it's not even close. While their raw numbers might look similar take a deeper look. Manu's career FG% is 45%, Crawford shot that well for a season only twice, is a career 41% shooter, and shot under 40% four times. Manu's career 2fg% is 50%; Crawford has never shot that well from 2. Manu's career 3fg% is 37%; Crawford's is 35%. Their assist numbers are similar but Manu's a better rebounder. If you're into advanced stats Manu blows Crawford out of the water in PER, ORtg, DRtg, WS, and WS/48. And that's just really talking about offense, defensively it's also no contest. Manu was never going to win DPOY or be named to the All-Defensive team but he can handle himself out there. Crawford is god-awful on defense; easily as bad as Harden.
Somehow, it always comes back to defensive output. Manu gives much more effort and therefore, blows Crawford away in that respect. If you're choosing a team, you Manu over Crawford every time.
