Knicks · Would you rather Magic, Kareem, Worthy, Bird, Parish, and McHale played on 6 separate teams? (page 1)

Bonn1997 @ 7/8/2014 10:20 AM
Just wondering. I see all these posts about people not liking it when superstars team up, and I don't get it. I like seeing supreme talent work together and compete against other supreme talent combos. And I want Phil to construct a team that lots of top players want to team up on rather than having a league where that can't happen.
EnySpree @ 7/8/2014 10:26 AM
Different era....besides most of those guys were drafted by their own team.... Only Kareem and parish were traded for.... Not a good argument
Bonn1997 @ 7/8/2014 10:32 AM
EnySpree wrote:Different era....besides most of those guys were drafted by their own team.... Only Kareem and parish were traded for.... Not a good argument

I want to see supreme talent competing. I don't care how the team got that talent. The fun is in *watching* the talent compete, not pondering the avenue the team used to get the player.
Even in your scenario, would you prefer Kareem and Parish had been on separate teams? Would that have made the game more enjoyable?
EnySpree @ 7/8/2014 10:41 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Different era....besides most of those guys were drafted by their own team.... Only Kareem and parish were traded for.... Not a good argument

I want to see supreme talent competing. I don't care how the team got that talent. The fun is in *watching* the talent compete, not pondering the avenue the team used to get the player.
Even in your scenario, would you prefer Kareem and Parish had been on separate teams? Would that have made the game more enjoyable?

What scenario? That's what happened. Kareem was already a lakers when magic and worthy were drafted. Bird and Mchale were drafted. The chief was brought in later....before the chief came in the celtics were already a winning team.

The problem in 2010 and 2014 is teams are selling their souls for these guys in stead if just trying to build a team. Every 4 years we can't have a league that's thirsty for the next hired gun. Teams spend poorly and manage even worse therefore we have this fiasco happen.

This type of thing never happened to the level it does now

smackeddog @ 7/8/2014 10:42 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:Just wondering. I see all these posts about people not liking it when superstars team up, and I don't get it. I like seeing supreme talent work together and compete against other supreme talent combos. And I want Phil to construct a team that lots of top players want to team up on rather than having a league where that can't happen.

I prefer it when teams have 2 stars and some good role players- not a fan of the 3 stars on one team thing, because it means one of those players usually has to significantly sacrifice their game (Bosh). I'd rather see a reasonable distribution of the top players, just so we get to see them all performing at their best.

I liked the days of Gary Payton & Shawn Kemp, Malone & Stockton, Drexler & Hakeem, Jordan & Pippen, etc etc- those teams always had a great 3rd guy who wasn't quite a star, but was just a rung below.

Bonn1997 @ 7/8/2014 10:43 AM
EnySpree wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Different era....besides most of those guys were drafted by their own team.... Only Kareem and parish were traded for.... Not a good argument

I want to see supreme talent competing. I don't care how the team got that talent. The fun is in *watching* the talent compete, not pondering the avenue the team used to get the player.
Even in your scenario, would you prefer Kareem and Parish had been on separate teams? Would that have made the game more enjoyable?

What scenario? That's what happened. Kareem was already a lakers when magic and worthy were drafted. Bird and Mchale were drafted. The chief was brought in later....before the chief came in the celtics were already a winning team.

The problem in 2010 and 2014 is teams are selling their souls for these guys in stead if just trying to build a team. Every 4 years we can't have a league that's thirsty for the next hired gun. Teams spend poorly and manage even worse therefore we have this fiasco happen.

This type of thing never happened to the level it does now


Right but the solutions people are coming up with will make it so that we never see another Magic-Kareem-Worthy combo again. If the sacrifice is that teams rely more on free agency than in the past, I don't mind. I'd rather have that than see a league where no team has more than one superstar.
EnySpree @ 7/8/2014 10:47 AM
Nothing wrong with the Miami big three or if Melo wants to replace bosh.... The problem is how they do it. That LeBron decision was an epic takeover of the whole league. Everyone tried to get one or two of them. They already knew they were going to Miami together. That's messed up because do many teams including the kicks wasted years trying to prepare for that 2010 off season.
Nalod @ 7/8/2014 10:54 AM

Do you really just want to see two super teams? I'd rather see other teams and cities experience winning then what was the monopoly of Lakers and Celtics. You'll have a team make a brief run then the economics will force movement. The Smarter teams can hold a core togther but trade for future assets. SAS been doing this (George hill for the pick that became Khawi) and Thunder by trading Harden. THunder have yet to climb the mountain but they have their core.

Knicks had windows to participate in the old rules for years. I realize we should benefit from having the wealthiest team but we didn't.

IN all fairness, the "good old days" also had small market teams but their value is greater when you keep your home grown talent and they can still become global brands as has Lebron in Clev and Durant in OKC.

HOckey is coming back (Slowly) because the teams are larger than its stars. NFL is the most successful at this and enjoys having different teams in the superbowl on a regular basis.

Bonn1997 @ 7/8/2014 10:56 AM
Nalod wrote:
Do you really just want to see two super teams?
I'd rather see other teams and cities experience winning then what was the monopoly of Lakers and Celtics. You'll have a team make a brief run then the economics will force movement. The Smarter teams can hold a core togther but trade for future assets. SAS been doing this (George hill for the pick that became Khawi) and Thunder by trading Harden. THunder have yet to climb the mountain but they have their core.

Knicks had windows to participate in the old rules for years. I realize we should benefit from having the wealthiest team but we didn't.

IN all fairness, the "good old days" also had small market teams but their value is greater when you keep your home grown talent and they can still become global brands as has Lebron in Clev and Durant in OKC.

HOckey is coming back (Slowly) because the teams are larger than its stars. NFL is the most successful at this and enjoys having different teams in the superbowl on a regular basis.


That's a good question. It's hard to say. If it's a level playing field - all 30 teams had an equal chance to become one of those elite teams - then I don't think I mind. If you're one of the other 28 teams, then the fun is in trying to build to become the next one of those two elite teams.
mreinman @ 7/8/2014 11:00 AM
Bonn1997 wrote:Just wondering. I see all these posts about people not liking it when superstars team up, and I don't get it. I like seeing supreme talent work together and compete against other supreme talent combos. And I want Phil to construct a team that lots of top players want to team up on rather than having a league where that can't happen.

I would like if these dominant teams were mostly with homegrown players not mercenaries.

Nalod @ 7/8/2014 11:03 AM
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Just wondering. I see all these posts about people not liking it when superstars team up, and I don't get it. I like seeing supreme talent work together and compete against other supreme talent combos. And I want Phil to construct a team that lots of top players want to team up on rather than having a league where that can't happen.

I would like if these dominant teams were mostly with homegrown players not mercenaries.

Maybe we should commend players who take below market value to join a franchise to increase their winning opportunity?

Amare sure as hell went for the money.

Bonn1997 @ 7/8/2014 11:04 AM
Nalod wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Just wondering. I see all these posts about people not liking it when superstars team up, and I don't get it. I like seeing supreme talent work together and compete against other supreme talent combos. And I want Phil to construct a team that lots of top players want to team up on rather than having a league where that can't happen.

I would like if these dominant teams were mostly with homegrown players not mercenaries.

Maybe we should commend players who take below market value to join a franchise to increase their winning opportunity?

Amare sure as hell went for the money.


Yeah, I agree. I actually think it's more impressive if a guy takes a discount to team up with someone than if he just happened to be drafted on the same team with that player.
gunsnewing @ 7/8/2014 11:14 AM
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Just wondering. I see all these posts about people not liking it when superstars team up, and I don't get it. I like seeing supreme talent work together and compete against other supreme talent combos. And I want Phil to construct a team that lots of top players want to team up on rather than having a league where that can't happen.

I would like if these dominant teams were mostly with homegrown players not mercenaries.

This

Bonn1997 @ 7/8/2014 11:20 AM
gunsnewing wrote:
mreinman wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:Just wondering. I see all these posts about people not liking it when superstars team up, and I don't get it. I like seeing supreme talent work together and compete against other supreme talent combos. And I want Phil to construct a team that lots of top players want to team up on rather than having a league where that can't happen.

I would like if these dominant teams were mostly with homegrown players not mercenaries.

This


There are 30 teams in the league, though, and they all have access to great player evaluation metrics now. You're never going to see multiple hall-of-famers drafted together.
BigRedDog @ 7/8/2014 12:34 PM
EnySpree wrote:
Bonn1997 wrote:
EnySpree wrote:Different era....besides most of those guys were drafted by their own team.... Only Kareem and parish were traded for.... Not a good argument

I want to see supreme talent competing. I don't care how the team got that talent. The fun is in *watching* the talent compete, not pondering the avenue the team used to get the player.
Even in your scenario, would you prefer Kareem and Parish had been on separate teams? Would that have made the game more enjoyable?

What scenario? That's what happened. Kareem was already a lakers when magic and worthy were drafted. Bird and Mchale were drafted. The chief was brought in later....before the chief came in the celtics were already a winning team.

The problem in 2010 and 2014 is teams are selling their souls for these guys in stead if just trying to build a team. Every 4 years we can't have a league that's thirsty for the next hired gun. Teams spend poorly and manage even worse therefore we have this fiasco happen.

This type of thing never happened to the level it does now

The Celtics traded the #1 pick to the warriors (who picked Joe Barry Carrol) for Parrish and the #3 pick ( who the celtics drafted Mchale) Parrish and Mchale came in the same yr. The Celtics were a winning team already though thanks to Bird ( who single handily transformed a 34 win team into a 51 win team)

WaltLongmire @ 7/8/2014 1:26 PM
Some random thoughts/questions on the subject:

I agree with the folks who feel that building a homegrown powerhouse is more acceptable than the mercenary route. I would also add that making legitimate trades is another route to success that I have no issue with. Rooting for the Knicks, or any team I like, is difficult if their best players are big FA signings.

I would have liked to see how the OKC team with Harden played out over time. In some way they were penalized because they drafted too well, although Harden probably felt he had to be the man, and wanted to get out no matter what.

How good could the Knicks have been if they had not made of those bonehead trades and signing during the 2000's and drafted wisely?

I like the NFL model, but basketball only allows 5 men on the court at one time, so one or two players can really turn a franchise around. The value of a QB might be equal to a BB superstar in some ways, but even then, you have had many successful teams with average/OK QBs who were on great teams in which they only needed to manage an offense, and not carry a team.

Two great stars with decent complimentary players can get you well into the playoffs in the NBA. That is not true in the NFL and MLB. This changes greatly the financial dynamics in the respective leagues and how you go about building teams.

The significances of any single player is also magnified if you give them a big contract and they fail to perform as anticipated. This is less of an issue in the NFL because contracts are not entirely guaranteed for the most part. NBA contracts can be killers for a team that signs a player for big $ who underperforms for one reason or another. The other issue is that NBA draftees, for the most part, don't have the kind of track records an NFL draftee has. I would up the age restrictions for players who want to come into the league, and if they are not college material they should have to go overseas or compete in the DLeague.

Would people prefer a system where NBA contracts are not completely guaranteed or included incentive bonuses?

Perhaps NBA teams should have an Amnesty system which allows them to dump a bad contract every 3 (4?5?) years if they chose to, except for the balloon contracts that are used to game the system. For instance, Houston should not be able to Amnesty Lin's contract.

Find it hard to believe that a player who has never won a championship would take $100M over 5 years to be on a team with little or no chance to win a title, instead of taking $80M over 4 years to be on a team that can compete for a championship, unless he was drafted by the team offering more and felt loyalty toward them. People talk about the $20M you would not be getting, without looking at the $80M you are getting.

I understand that the players union would not accept a decrease in guaranteed $$ and an expanded amnesty provision. Not sure how they feel about increasing the age you can enter into the draft.

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