Knicks · Bargs: Do you agree with Jackson when it comes to Bargnani? Do you think Bargnani can be a “surprise” for the Knicks (page 2)

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:When he was actually getting minutes Bargs was the 2nd best player on the team!!! People have seriously developed amnesia about last year. We didn't lose because of Bargnani. We lost cuz of Woody, JR, Felton sucking and Tyson breaking his leg etc. There were a myriad of reasons, but early in the year before Bargs lost his confidence and then got injured, he was avg'ing 16/6/1.3 blks on 47.4%, 81% FT and 37% from 3pt range. People just forget that he actually was doing that with Felton, Shump and JR stinking up the joint. IMO he most definitely can be a productive player. Coaching will make a huge difference and the presence of Jose will also help cuz they have chemistry.

where do you come up with these things?

What the F were you watching at the start of the year when Bargs was in FACT the 2nd best player on the team. Don't piss on my posts if you're not gonna back up what you say with SOMETHING. I hate that ISH.

Bargs:  32.7 mpg 47.4% FG  37.0% 3pt 81.1% FT 5.8 reb 1.3 blks 16.4 pts
Felton: 35.1 mpg 36.6% FG  23.7% 3pt 85.7% FT 2.8 reb 5.8 ast  9.9  pts
JR:     31.5 mpg 32.8$ FG  28.6% 3pt 59.1% FT 4.6 reb 1.9 ast  11.7 pts

The poor coaching and poor play of our guards sucked the life out of Bargs. All those losses broke team spirit. Before Bargs lost all his confidence and enthusiasm, he was doing OK. Woody didn't make sure to keep him a part of the action. Bargs is the kind of player that has to be involved. He'll drift if he's not getting touches. That's the beauty of the Triangle, the ball gets to touch everyones hands and they are all active and engaged on every play.

dude you need to chill out with that crap and relax. You want to hang your hat on a 13 game stretch like that's something to hold on to even though he still had a negative +/-. What about December and January when he was "getting minutes"? I guess those don't count. He started the season sucking then had a good 13 games so the other 27 games just do not count.

He the definition of a negative player but I know to you he is awesome.

You just totally miss the point. He was playing well and the losing and crap from the rest of the team just messed him up. He can't excel with HORRID PG play and SG's that can't shoot. What exactly was he supposed to do with a coach that can't coach offense?? GTFO with your lame points. We get that it was a short time but the guys was playing well and it wasn't his fault that only Melo was playing well and everyone Bargs needed to play well SUCKED.

This is why Phil shipped Felton and Tyson out of here. Jose will be a much better PG as will Larkin off the bench. This team is going to be playing a system with constant ball and player movement, something we didn't see last year. That kind of offense should work well for Bargs.

When Tyson went down Bargs held the C spot down against top C's. It would've been nice if we had an offense that helped him get great looks. Too often his shots were happy accidents and not great offense.

Definitely think Bargs can do much better. Last year's offense did not serve his abilities. This year's offense should give him every opportunity to perform better. Having said that, he needs to toughen up a bit - rebound and stay involved more. Hopefully PJax can help his fcous. He has unique talent and the video against D.Howard shows he can be effective. Think it's less about Melo and more about his focus/effort level.

His mid range game is off the hook, so I'm not sure why people are doubting his ability to perform in the triangle.

H1AND1 wrote:To me Bargs sucks and is a net negative on the court until he proves otherwise. Jackson is talking him
up and paying lip service cause we are stuck with him til 2015.

Onviously I don't have high hopes for a Bargs renaissance. Believe me I wish it will happen but I think it's well past proven that he is garbage no matter what system he is in.

I hope I'm wrong (I've been wrong many times before and am a pessimist so...)

Fact is with him on the court the Knicks give up more points than they score by a wide margin. Can't get lost in ppg as the end all of measuring ability playing defense matters and Bargs is an awful team defender and he cant rebound. Until the Knicks stop obtaining 1 way players there arent going anywhere.

franco12 wrote:having read this and the article about Calderon, I'm worried the problem here is Anthony - that he is a simple ball hog - not selfish, but simply unable to pass the ball and facilitate movement on the offense.

Flame On!

fair concern... I think we learn pretty quickly next year on that.

Most years, he hits around 40 to 45% of his mid-range shots. That's an OK shot only as a last resort (meaning the shot clock is about to expire).
http://www.hoopdata.com/player.aspx?name...

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:having read this and the article about Calderon, I'm worried the problem here is Anthony - that he is a simple ball hog - not selfish, but simply unable to pass the ball and facilitate movement on the offense.

Flame On!

fair concern... I think we learn pretty quickly next year on that.

And I have extreme confidence in Jackson & Fisher to help in this regard that I'm not worried. Melo may struggle, but if our summer league guys can pick up and execute this system, no reason Melo can't.

Even iverson reached the finals. Ball hogs have a place. I trust fisher. He's played with a few ball hogs in his day.

Iverson had one of the best defensive players in the history of the game as a teammate. And the east was even weaker then. That team wouldn't have made it past any team with Lebron.

franco12 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:having read this and the article about Calderon, I'm worried the problem here is Anthony - that he is a simple ball hog - not selfish, but simply unable to pass the ball and facilitate movement on the offense.

Flame On!

fair concern... I think we learn pretty quickly next year on that.

And I have extreme confidence in Jackson & Fisher to help in this regard that I'm not worried. Melo may struggle, but if our summer league guys can pick up and execute this system, no reason Melo can't.

hard to picture Phil maxing him out and adding a no trade clause if Melo doesnt have expectations laid out in front of him. Im with you... there are a lot of holes in the roster and players with question marks. I feel great about this front office figuring those things out but you have to give them some time.

Bonn1997 wrote:Iverson had one of the best defensive players in the history of the game as a teammate. And the east was even weaker then. That team wouldn't have made it past any team with Lebron.

The East then was absolutely pitiful.

Jmpasq wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Iverson had one of the best defensive players in the history of the game as a teammate. And the east was even weaker then. That team wouldn't have made it past any team with Lebron.

The East then was absolutely pitiful.

Yeah, I actually think right now that would probably be just a 2nd round team in the east and a team that exits quickly in the 1st round in the west.

I don't know how Bargs will do, but I do believe that this is his best shot to blend in better with his teammates. Thats his biggest problem IMO, bigger than his team D.

Jmpasq wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:Iverson had one of the best defensive players in the history of the game as a teammate. And the east was even weaker then. That team wouldn't have made it past any team with Lebron.

The East then was absolutely pitiful.

every yr when a few marquee players come over to the east, the media starts saying how the east will be so much better, and it get worse.

Last season is a prime example, and this year will be the same.

yellowboy90 wrote:

Don't know what you were trying to say with the video, but...

When I look at the Lego vid, what comes to mind are the benefits of working as part of a system, and what you can do when everyone is working in sync. An organized society where everyone is playing their role is one that can achieve great things. All citizens, even those who some might consider to be mediocre as individuals, can make a difference, and it is those selfish few who work in isolation from the team who should be shunned an vilified.

When the Lego guy at the end of the clip is ecstatic when he has to pay for overpriced coffee, it reminds me that people will pay more for something when a great achievement is involved.

Learn from the Lego, and everything can be awesome.

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:When he was actually getting minutes Bargs was the 2nd best player on the team!!! People have seriously developed amnesia about last year. We didn't lose because of Bargnani. We lost cuz of Woody, JR, Felton sucking and Tyson breaking his leg etc. There were a myriad of reasons, but early in the year before Bargs lost his confidence and then got injured, he was avg'ing 16/6/1.3 blks on 47.4%, 81% FT and 37% from 3pt range. People just forget that he actually was doing that with Felton, Shump and JR stinking up the joint. IMO he most definitely can be a productive player. Coaching will make a huge difference and the presence of Jose will also help cuz they have chemistry.

where do you come up with these things?

What the F were you watching at the start of the year when Bargs was in FACT the 2nd best player on the team. Don't piss on my posts if you're not gonna back up what you say with SOMETHING. I hate that ISH.

Bargs:  32.7 mpg 47.4% FG  37.0% 3pt 81.1% FT 5.8 reb 1.3 blks 16.4 pts
Felton: 35.1 mpg 36.6% FG  23.7% 3pt 85.7% FT 2.8 reb 5.8 ast  9.9  pts
JR:     31.5 mpg 32.8$ FG  28.6% 3pt 59.1% FT 4.6 reb 1.9 ast  11.7 pts

The poor coaching and poor play of our guards sucked the life out of Bargs. All those losses broke team spirit. Before Bargs lost all his confidence and enthusiasm, he was doing OK. Woody didn't make sure to keep him a part of the action. Bargs is the kind of player that has to be involved. He'll drift if he's not getting touches. That's the beauty of the Triangle, the ball gets to touch everyones hands and they are all active and engaged on every play.

dude you need to chill out with that crap and relax. You want to hang your hat on a 13 game stretch like that's something to hold on to even though he still had a negative +/-. What about December and January when he was "getting minutes"? I guess those don't count. He started the season sucking then had a good 13 games so the other 27 games just do not count.

He the definition of a negative player but I know to you he is awesome.

Well if he can't base his perfomance during a 13 game stretch, how do you base it on a 27 game stretch, with so many other issues that the team had.

Are you saying Barg can never be good no matter who you put around him, or no matter what system he plays in?

Are you taking woodson system into consideration, the PG play, the passes he got, the timing of his shots?

Are you determining his success strickly of off stats, is that truly the way to judge a player.

knicks1248 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

nixluva wrote:When he was actually getting minutes Bargs was the 2nd best player on the team!!! People have seriously developed amnesia about last year. We didn't lose because of Bargnani. We lost cuz of Woody, JR, Felton sucking and Tyson breaking his leg etc. There were a myriad of reasons, but early in the year before Bargs lost his confidence and then got injured, he was avg'ing 16/6/1.3 blks on 47.4%, 81% FT and 37% from 3pt range. People just forget that he actually was doing that with Felton, Shump and JR stinking up the joint. IMO he most definitely can be a productive player. Coaching will make a huge difference and the presence of Jose will also help cuz they have chemistry.

where do you come up with these things?

What the F were you watching at the start of the year when Bargs was in FACT the 2nd best player on the team. Don't piss on my posts if you're not gonna back up what you say with SOMETHING. I hate that ISH.

Bargs:  32.7 mpg 47.4% FG  37.0% 3pt 81.1% FT 5.8 reb 1.3 blks 16.4 pts
Felton: 35.1 mpg 36.6% FG  23.7% 3pt 85.7% FT 2.8 reb 5.8 ast  9.9  pts
JR:     31.5 mpg 32.8$ FG  28.6% 3pt 59.1% FT 4.6 reb 1.9 ast  11.7 pts

The poor coaching and poor play of our guards sucked the life out of Bargs. All those losses broke team spirit. Before Bargs lost all his confidence and enthusiasm, he was doing OK. Woody didn't make sure to keep him a part of the action. Bargs is the kind of player that has to be involved. He'll drift if he's not getting touches. That's the beauty of the Triangle, the ball gets to touch everyones hands and they are all active and engaged on every play.

dude you need to chill out with that crap and relax. You want to hang your hat on a 13 game stretch like that's something to hold on to even though he still had a negative +/-. What about December and January when he was "getting minutes"? I guess those don't count. He started the season sucking then had a good 13 games so the other 27 games just do not count.

He the definition of a negative player but I know to you he is awesome.

Well if he can't base his perfomance during a 13 game stretch, how do you base it on a 27 game stretch, with so many other issues that the team had.

Are you saying Barg can never be good no matter who you put around him, or no matter what system he plays in?

Are you taking woodson system into consideration, the PG play, the passes he got, the timing of his shots?

Are you determining his success strickly of off stats, is that truly the way to judge a player.

Bargs has never put together a really great season in his entire career? Even when he was putting up 17-20 points a game he was doing so inefficiently and playing atrocious defense. Then, the past 3 or 4 seasons he's been atrocious.

Why should we think he is all of sudden going to play up to expectations now?

Jmpasq wrote:

H1AND1 wrote:To me Bargs sucks and is a net negative on the court until he proves otherwise. Jackson is talking him
up and paying lip service cause we are stuck with him til 2015.

Onviously I don't have high hopes for a Bargs renaissance. Believe me I wish it will happen but I think it's well past proven that he is garbage no matter what system he is in.

I hope I'm wrong (I've been wrong many times before and am a pessimist so...)

Fact is with him on the court the Knicks give up more points than they score by a wide margin. Can't get lost in ppg as the end all of measuring ability playing defense matters and Bargs is an awful team defender and he cant rebound. Until the Knicks stop obtaining 1 way players there arent going anywhere.

The problem with the Knicks scoring less with Bargs on the floor was a COACHING issue and a PG issue. Neither Woodson nor Felton knew what the hell they were doing. I've never seen a team look as lost as they did last year. Stagnant, no passing, no spacing, no rhythm, no flow. Now we have a GM, Coach and System that will help all of our players to work well together. If you haven't yet looked into what the Triangle is all about then I suggest you do some research. It's literally NOTHING like what Woodson has been doing here. Now we're talking about a system that rewards players for being active and being able to shoot midrange shots. Now there's ball and player movement the entire 24 seconds. All the players know what to do and where to go. Once they learn the system and master it this should really help to stop the problems we had in the past. We haven't had that kind of offense.

One of Bargs biggest problems last year was getting touches. They simply didn't move the ball enough nor get it to him in the best scoring position. If this team buys into the Triangle they will be put in prime scoring position and play as a team by default. That's how the system is designed. The Triangle forces players to think the game. Bigs now have to make decisions with the ball and the more they do the better they'll get at it. It's no guarantee that they do that, but we'll be sure to know who isn't buying in tho.

Bargs is a system type player. Most Euros are system players. ISO ball was bad for him because he can't create for himself or get open. I think he will be a very good C in this triangle offense. I think he will be a suped up Bill Wennington.

If you look at the following highlight video notice the offense we're running and how sloppy it is. How often Bargnani gets the ball out of prime position. So often guys are just standing around. Also he's a much more active player when he's been involved in the game. He'll defend better. It's just the way he is. Seems to me that many of his coaches haven't paid attention to this. Now in this system at least the ball is designed to be passed to the big men so they can get a feel and be involved. He can survey the court and see what the defense does and make better decisions, closer to the basket. What I see in this video is a player with talent and size that needs to be coached up. He has the ability to do so much more than he has. Let's see what Phil and his boys can do.

nixluva wrote:If you look at the following highlight video notice the offense we're running and how sloppy it is. How often Bargnani gets the ball out of prime position. So often guys are just standing around. Also he's a much more active player when he's been involved in the game. He'll defend better. It's just the way he is. Seems to me that many of his coaches haven't paid attention to this. Now in this system at least the ball is designed to be passed to the big men so they can get a feel and be involved. He can survey the court and see what the defense does and make better decisions, closer to the basket. What I see in this video is a player with talent and size that needs to be coached up. He has the ability to do so much more than he has. Let's see what Phil and his boys can do.

I agree with Nixluva on Bargs. Better coaching and team ball will help him. We have a 7 footer who can shoot the 3.

What I like on this video is seeing how far out and how reluctant Dwight Howard is to come out to the 3 pt line to guard Bargs. The result is that Bargs is open for the 3, and also Howard is out of position for the rebound. It screws up Houston's D and rebounding positions.