Knicks · we have a 50 win team on our hands this year, i'm good at feeling these things out (page 2)

knicks1248 wrote:Read more at http://www.basketballinsiders.com/phil-jackson-leading-knicks-in-right-direction/#w5D21C9QF3WHB6sP.99

Great article... nice read. Refreshing after the daily dose of the dk/tfk downer duo and their new followed F5 who is convinced the entire league got better and the Knicks will lose around 50 games.

Just because teams didn't make any major FA moves, doesn't mean they haven't improved. Some of the teams that did nothing, will surprise you this year. Chemistry is very underrated. And we made some significant changes to our starting lineup, and have more young players now, which is a good move for the future. While the rest of the teams in the east either kept their vets, made a big splash, or stayed the course.

Don't sleep on the east this year. It's not the same conference back when we won 50 games. And the west is still dominant. Just reframe yourselves a little, hope for the best, and if we stay the course, we might win 50 games in a few years.

But it's not the games you win, it's about making the playoffs....That would be a great confidence booster for the young players and coaching staff.....

IMO it's all in the coaching. If you are great at teaching and getting your players to understand what you want them to do it can speed up the process of the teams development of chemistry. What also helps is having players that are leaders in the right position. Having Calderon as the floor leader is a huge plus. He's going to be talking to his teammates and making sure they get in the right spots and know what to do. Having a coach on the floor is HUGE as we learned with Kidd.
That makes a huge impact right away. Billups made an impact for Denver and Melo. It's really that big of a deal when you bring in a PG with real leadership and experience. Felton was that bad last year and it made a huge difference to the fortunes of the team.

This team will most likely be more balanced than last year. I like the PG's better. I think we have more size depth. More importantly the System is a Team oriented ball and player movement system. That is gonna have an impact on the team. Take these same players and put them in a selfish ISO ball system and they'll fare worse than this system which is about TEAM. I don't think it's wrong to be high on this teams prospects this year.

I feel bad for Phil and fish. The Knicks are going to be so bad defensively that their era is going to get off on the wrong foot. You know how New York is.

Would've much rather have purged the roster and give Phil and fish a fresh start. This can get ugly. I know they knew what they were getting into. I know they will eventually purge the roster but I don't want to see a Walsh/Dantoni situation again when things snowball to hate from fans and media

nixluva wrote:People just don't get that efficient offensive teams can win too. The trick is to play just enough defense and ball out on offense. One of Phil's Laker teams did this. The 2000-01 finals team was great offensively but was 23rd in Pts allowed and 21st in defensive rating. They were #2 in offensive rating. It's not how you want to do things but it has been done. Not every great defensive team wins the title. It's more complex than that. Gotta hope they can scheme a defense like the Mavs did. Find a way to hide the weak links on D.

Sorry but how do you find a way to hide anywhere between 3-4 out of the 5 players on the court? Melo (on most days), Amare, Bargs, Calderon, THJR, JR( when he is clubbing) and Shumpert when he had confidence issues.

gunsnewing wrote:I feel bad for Phil and fish. The Knicks are going to be so bad defensively that their era is going to get off on the wrong foot. You know how New York is.

Would've much rather have purged the roster and give Phil and fish a fresh start. This can get ugly. I know they knew what they were getting into. I know they will eventually purge the roster but I don't want to see a Walsh/Dantoni situation again when things snowball to hate from fans and media

Im excited for Phil and fish. They are running the triangle and locked up one of the league's elite scorers who wants to be here, knows what the system is and signed on to be a part of it. They had a good draft in a year with no picks, added the shooters they need to run their offense and added some good size up front. They got younger and more athletic and their rookie coach got off to a nice start getting a summer league team to immediatly play like a team and build chemistry. Larkin/THjr/Early are already buddies and have been called the 3 amigos. There might be some struggles but this team will be a breath of fresh air after last year.

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:People just don't get that efficient offensive teams can win too. The trick is to play just enough defense and ball out on offense. One of Phil's Laker teams did this. The 2000-01 finals team was great offensively but was 23rd in Pts allowed and 21st in defensive rating. They were #2 in offensive rating. It's not how you want to do things but it has been done. Not every great defensive team wins the title. It's more complex than that. Gotta hope they can scheme a defense like the Mavs did. Find a way to hide the weak links on D.

Sorry but how do you find a way to hide anywhere between 3-4 out of the 5 players on the court? Melo (on most days), Amare, Bargs, Calderon, THJR, JR( when he is clubbing) and Shumpert when he had confidence issues.

defense is going to be the main issue, that is virtually guaranteed. this season it is going to cost them five or more games which puts them around 36 wins if their offense is merely average.

that means the offense has to be good for at least 10 to 15 games, or top ten in the league. is that realistic?

gunsnewing wrote:I feel bad for Phil and fish. The Knicks are going to be so bad defensively that their era is going to get off on the wrong foot. You know how New York is.

Would've much rather have purged the roster and give Phil and fish a fresh start. This can get ugly. I know they knew what they were getting into. I know they will eventually purge the roster but I don't want to see a Walsh/Dantoni situation again when things snowball to hate from fans and media

I don't think you see a mess like Walsh/Dantoni again. That was such an epic disaster. Phil has already made a good trade and it appears he has made a good hire for his coach both trades and good hires didn't happen during Walsh's tenure. There just weren't sexual harassment lawsuits and intern sex scandals. Bad trades, bad signings all continued it was just done in a more dignified manner. Also, if Fish doesn't work out I don't think Phil spends three years to make a change.

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:People just don't get that efficient offensive teams can win too. The trick is to play just enough defense and ball out on offense. One of Phil's Laker teams did this. The 2000-01 finals team was great offensively but was 23rd in Pts allowed and 21st in defensive rating. They were #2 in offensive rating. It's not how you want to do things but it has been done. Not every great defensive team wins the title. It's more complex than that. Gotta hope they can scheme a defense like the Mavs did. Find a way to hide the weak links on D.

Sorry but how do you find a way to hide anywhere between 3-4 out of the 5 players on the court? Melo (on most days), Amare, Bargs, Calderon, THJR, JR( when he is clubbing) and Shumpert when he had confidence issues.

ask Dallas... they won 50 games with Monta and Calderon starting in the backcourt and Dirk at PF, three NBA turnstiles if there ever were any. Marion is a great defender and Dalembert is here now. Vince Carter was the #1 guy off the bench. Thats a horrible defensive team. Horrible... but they won 50 and took the Spurs to 7. Somehow when players come to the Knicks only the bad part of their games surface and fans seem to flush the good.

One other thing. This rookie coach has a great staff and the full 100% backing of Phil Jackson. That and you have a bunch of guys in walk years. People act like this is going to be a mail it in year. Take a closer look....

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:People just don't get that efficient offensive teams can win too. The trick is to play just enough defense and ball out on offense. One of Phil's Laker teams did this. The 2000-01 finals team was great offensively but was 23rd in Pts allowed and 21st in defensive rating. They were #2 in offensive rating. It's not how you want to do things but it has been done. Not every great defensive team wins the title. It's more complex than that. Gotta hope they can scheme a defense like the Mavs did. Find a way to hide the weak links on D.

Sorry but how do you find a way to hide anywhere between 3-4 out of the 5 players on the court? Melo (on most days), Amare, Bargs, Calderon, THJR, JR( when he is clubbing) and Shumpert when he had confidence issues.

ask Dallas... they won 50 games with Monta and Calderon starting in the backcourt and Dirk at PF, three NBA turnstiles if there ever were any. Marion is a great defender and Dalembert is here now. Vince Carter was the #1 guy off the bench. Thats a horrible defensive team. Horrible... but they won 50 and took the Spurs to 7. Somehow when players come to the Knicks only the bad part of their games surface and fans seem to flush the good.

One other thing. This rookie coach has a great staff and the full 100% backing of Phil Jackson. That and you have a bunch of guys in walk years. People act like this is going to be a mail it in year. Take a closer look....

It comes down to Dirk.

You can take those same players at every stop prior to Dallas and you'd qualify them as losers[although decent role players]

When you have great synergy players like Dirk, you get those results.

Dirk won with Brendan Haywood, Eric Dampier, Najera, Custodian, Maquis Daniels, Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, Austin Croshere so on and so forth

Dallas was a lock for 50gms in the west every yr it didn't matter.

I don't see Dirk on our team, not in case Bargs has an out of body experience

I like Calderon for what he'll provide//// steady, deliberate, structured offense but he's going to get a Joan Rivers facelift on defense

Very efficient guard, heck one yr in Detroit his numbers were stupid but he has no significant impact either way.

last season dallas was ranked second in offensive efficiency as a team. they also ranked top five in assist ratio.

this helped negate their below average defense.

the knicks will have to have rankings similar to the ones dallas had last year if they are to make any kind of meaningful mark this coming season.

is this realistic?

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:People just don't get that efficient offensive teams can win too. The trick is to play just enough defense and ball out on offense. One of Phil's Laker teams did this. The 2000-01 finals team was great offensively but was 23rd in Pts allowed and 21st in defensive rating. They were #2 in offensive rating. It's not how you want to do things but it has been done. Not every great defensive team wins the title. It's more complex than that. Gotta hope they can scheme a defense like the Mavs did. Find a way to hide the weak links on D.

Sorry but how do you find a way to hide anywhere between 3-4 out of the 5 players on the court? Melo (on most days), Amare, Bargs, Calderon, THJR, JR( when he is clubbing) and Shumpert when he had confidence issues.

ask Dallas... they won 50 games with Monta and Calderon starting in the backcourt and Dirk at PF, three NBA turnstiles if there ever were any. Marion is a great defender and Dalembert is here now. Vince Carter was the #1 guy off the bench. Thats a horrible defensive team. Horrible... but they won 50 and took the Spurs to 7. Somehow when players come to the Knicks only the bad part of their games surface and fans seem to flush the good.

One other thing. This rookie coach has a great staff and the full 100% backing of Phil Jackson. That and you have a bunch of guys in walk years. People act like this is going to be a mail it in year. Take a closer look....

It comes down to Dirk.

You can take those same players at every stop prior to Dallas and you'd qualify them as losers[although decent role players]

When you have great synergy players like Dirk, you get those results.

Dirk won with Brendan Haywood, Eric Dampier, Najera, Custodian, Maquis Daniels, Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, Austin Croshere so on and so forth

Dallas was a lock for 50gms in the west every yr it didn't matter

I don't see Dirk on our team, not in case Bargs has an out of body experience.

I like Calderon for what he'll provide//// steady, deliberate, structured offense but he's going to get a Joan Rivers facelift on defense

Very efficient guard, heck one yr in Detroit his numbers were stupid but he has no significant impact either way.

yes it comes down to dirk... but unlike the focus on bargnani you give here, our issue is that it comes down to melo.

is 45-50 wins realistic? melo is no dirk.

CrushAlot wrote:Great article. Thanks for posting it.

Np, were always going to get overlooked by the media, were not the sexy pick i guess

Knicks won 54 playing with a better offense than defense. Phil won a title with the Lakers when they had a top offense but bottom 15 defense. It really isn't that unusual.

gunsnewing wrote:I feel bad for Phil and fish. The Knicks are going to be so bad defensively that their era is going to get off on the wrong foot. You know how New York is.

Would've much rather have purged the roster and give Phil and fish a fresh start. This can get ugly. I know they knew what they were getting into. I know they will eventually purge the roster but I don't want to see a Walsh/Dantoni situation again when things snowball to hate from fans and media

I think MDA hiring was good, but walsh made some head scratching moves after the hire, I mean some serious head scratching moves.

dk7th wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:People just don't get that efficient offensive teams can win too. The trick is to play just enough defense and ball out on offense. One of Phil's Laker teams did this. The 2000-01 finals team was great offensively but was 23rd in Pts allowed and 21st in defensive rating. They were #2 in offensive rating. It's not how you want to do things but it has been done. Not every great defensive team wins the title. It's more complex than that. Gotta hope they can scheme a defense like the Mavs did. Find a way to hide the weak links on D.

Sorry but how do you find a way to hide anywhere between 3-4 out of the 5 players on the court? Melo (on most days), Amare, Bargs, Calderon, THJR, JR( when he is clubbing) and Shumpert when he had confidence issues.

ask Dallas... they won 50 games with Monta and Calderon starting in the backcourt and Dirk at PF, three NBA turnstiles if there ever were any. Marion is a great defender and Dalembert is here now. Vince Carter was the #1 guy off the bench. Thats a horrible defensive team. Horrible... but they won 50 and took the Spurs to 7. Somehow when players come to the Knicks only the bad part of their games surface and fans seem to flush the good.

One other thing. This rookie coach has a great staff and the full 100% backing of Phil Jackson. That and you have a bunch of guys in walk years. People act like this is going to be a mail it in year. Take a closer look....

It comes down to Dirk.

You can take those same players at every stop prior to Dallas and you'd qualify them as losers[although decent role players]

When you have great synergy players like Dirk, you get those results.

Dirk won with Brendan Haywood, Eric Dampier, Najera, Custodian, Maquis Daniels, Adrian Griffin, Josh Howard, Austin Croshere so on and so forth

Dallas was a lock for 50gms in the west every yr it didn't matter

I don't see Dirk on our team, not in case Bargs has an out of body experience.

I like Calderon for what he'll provide//// steady, deliberate, structured offense but he's going to get a Joan Rivers facelift on defense

Very efficient guard, heck one yr in Detroit his numbers were stupid but he has no significant impact either way.

yes it comes down to dirk... but unlike the focus on bargnani you give here, our issue is that it comes down to melo.

is 45-50 wins realistic? melo is no dirk.

I chose Bargs because he's sold as a stretch 7ft shooting big Euro[Dirk Mold], Melo talk is for another day.

I chose Bargs because Phil said he's the surprise this yr//// I'm not putting any money down in Vegas on this

Dirk may go down as one of the 20 greatest talents of all time.

There's no one within 500miles[Cleveland close?] of New York who comes close to this

Dirk has been coached by all kinds, in all systems, played with players all colors, shapes, ages, salary, and sizes.

His career has never been bound to such catching lightning in a bottle talk

He always delivered, no matter the cards dealt his way

nixluva wrote:Knicks won 54 playing with a better offense than defense. Phil won a title with the Lakers when they had a top offense but bottom 15 defense. It really isn't that unusual.

Phil also missed the playoffs as a coach and got bounced in the first round 2 with a Top 10 talent all time while in his prime.

If Phil wasn't upstairs but instead downstairs, I would feel a little more at ease

The coaching by proxy only goes so far.

If proxy gets peak results then it didn't matter who we hired

73 wins

48 Wins, East Division title, and top 4 seeding in playoffs.

Nets are DONE
Celtics are in rebuild and Rondo is still an unknown after his surgery
Raptors will make playoffs but will be closer to 44 wins...
Lowry played his ass off on that contract year and will fall back down to earth.

nyvector16 wrote:48 Wins, East Division title, and top 4 seeding in playoffs.

Nets are DONE
Celtics are in rebuild and Rondo is still an unknown after his surgery
Raptors will make playoffs but will be closer to 44 wins...
Lowry played his ass off on that contract year and will fall back down to earth.

Excellent points. I am going to up the win total to 51. I think the Knicks are going to go on a 90's like run where they have sustained success that this time hopefully ends up with a title in ny.

fishmike wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

nixluva wrote:People just don't get that efficient offensive teams can win too. The trick is to play just enough defense and ball out on offense. One of Phil's Laker teams did this. The 2000-01 finals team was great offensively but was 23rd in Pts allowed and 21st in defensive rating. They were #2 in offensive rating. It's not how you want to do things but it has been done. Not every great defensive team wins the title. It's more complex than that. Gotta hope they can scheme a defense like the Mavs did. Find a way to hide the weak links on D.

Sorry but how do you find a way to hide anywhere between 3-4 out of the 5 players on the court? Melo (on most days), Amare, Bargs, Calderon, THJR, JR( when he is clubbing) and Shumpert when he had confidence issues.

ask Dallas... they won 50 games with Monta and Calderon starting in the backcourt and Dirk at PF, three NBA turnstiles if there ever were any. Marion is a great defender and Dalembert is here now. Vince Carter was the #1 guy off the bench. Thats a horrible defensive team. Horrible... but they won 50 and took the Spurs to 7. Somehow when players come to the Knicks only the bad part of their games surface and fans seem to flush the good.

One other thing. This rookie coach has a great staff and the full 100% backing of Phil Jackson. That and you have a bunch of guys in walk years. People act like this is going to be a mail it in year. Take a closer look....

They also had more firepower on offense. We have ME lo and THJR.
Amare and Bargs are good but I need to see what they can actually being before I count them.