Knicks · Aldridge:Knicks had 10th best offseason (page 2)

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:My biggest concern is the rotation, we have 7 guards that need to play, priggs, calderon, larkin, JR, shump, THJ, ellington, no way you can have success playing even 5 of them.

I thought woodson's biggest failure was maganging the rotation, and to me thats the grass roots of a special team.

Prigs and Ellington have to earn minutes in my opion.

If it was me I would start Dalembert/Melo/Shump/JR/Calderon with Amare/Larkin/THjr off the bench and Cole is the extra big based on foul trouble, matchups, etc.

Those would be my 8 guys. I would like to pump and dump Shump and move him for a pick and hopefully Early plays his way into the rotation. But Im not assuming all these guys get playing time.

I would rather start Amare for half the 1st qtr, then bring him in at the start of the 2nd qtr when you sit melo.

You dont think running an 8 man rotation with a guy like Amare is a risk, I really don't want any of our players playing more then 35 minutes, im looking at 30min tops for everyone but melo, unless there scorching hot.

Well the 8 guys I would like to play (9 if you include Cole) would play heavy rotation minutes, so the idea would be to avoid having to ride guys for 40 minutes a night.

If you play all 8 guys the same minutes its 30 minutes a night for each. Obviously thats not going to happen, but its not far from would I would like to see. I like Amare in a 2nd unit with Larkin and THjr, Larkin is a great pick and roll PG and I could see that unit (if Amare can play like he finished last year) as one of the better scoring 2nd units in the league.

I dont like playing 10-11 guys. I think its too hard on the coaches and players to get good continuity and rhythm. That being said I dont want anyone playing heavy minutes.

I have no idea how it plays out though... I just hope for a balanced rotation and guys to earn their minutes. Looking forward!

I doubt the roster is locked in yet. I can't see Priggs AND Larkin. I read we still have interest in Toure Murray?

"Keeping a promise"..........

Lets look at that for a second because we may go way back all winter and consider that if we traded for Lowrey and resigned him that would have reduced our ability to spend. Perhaps it was told early by Melo's camp
that if you do that and don't have much upside/wiggle room regarding free agents and trades then maybe he'd have left.

While some of you might have rejoiced in that its evident that such a "promise" and prerequisit moves, or lack of was part of Phil's plans all along.

Given the CAA mafia is still in place with Knicks (Warketen still here??)is there a plan in effect we just can't see?
Lets be real, I was never suprised Phil wanted to be in NY but shocked he did come with Knicks given our "Clumsy" roster and lack of assets. He obviously sees a path to contendership.

He upgraded our Guards, did a good job with youtier depth but we are in great need of upgrading our front line. That might not happen so fast.

If Marc Gasol does not extend, keeps his mouth shut, at some point Memphis will have to address a trade. He can pull a "im only siging with knicks so do a deal or Im just gonna ride out free agency". That lowers the price but if everyone is patient, including Gasol, it can happen. Just one scenario. Another is one we can never see. A guy like Parsons/Lin blows up and is either free or restricted with an owner who can't afford the player..

In this CBA a lot of players will shake lose and might have great potential. Teams can't just keep their project players beyond rookie deals being "two years from being Two years away".........
Likewise, a guy like Shump is a guy we might fine expendible and not worth the price another team in need of him would pay. We might regret letting a guy like that go free but the lord givith and taketh so its important we keep our options open.

I don't know the plan but the game of rosters is also pretty fun to follow!

Nalod wrote:
I doubt the roster is locked in yet. I can't see Priggs AND Larkin. I read we still have interest in Toure Murray?

"Keeping a promise"..........

Lets look at that for a second because we may go way back all winter and consider that if we traded for Lowrey and resigned him that would have reduced our ability to spend. Perhaps it was told early by Melo's camp
that if you do that and don't have much upside/wiggle room regarding free agents and trades then maybe he'd have left.

While some of you might have rejoiced in that its evident that such a "promise" and prerequisit moves, or lack of was part of Phil's plans all along.

Given the CAA mafia is still in place with Knicks (Warketen still here??)is there a plan in effect we just can't see?
Lets be real, I was never suprised Phil wanted to be in NY but shocked he did come with Knicks given our "Clumsy" roster and lack of assets. He obviously sees a path to contendership.

He upgraded our Guards, did a good job with youtier depth but we are in great need of upgrading our front line. That might not happen so fast.

If Marc Gasol does not extend, keeps his mouth shut, at some point Memphis will have to address a trade. He can pull a "im only siging with knicks so do a deal or Im just gonna ride out free agency". That lowers the price but if everyone is patient, including Gasol, it can happen. Just one scenario. Another is one we can never see. A guy like Parsons/Lin blows up and is either free or restricted with an owner who can't afford the player..

In this CBA a lot of players will shake lose and might have great potential. Teams can't just keep their project players beyond rookie deals being "two years from being Two years away".........
Likewise, a guy like Shump is a guy we might fine expendible and not worth the price another team in need of him would pay. We might regret letting a guy like that go free but the lord givith and taketh so its important we keep our options open.

I don't know the plan but the game of rosters is also pretty fun to follow!

agree... and the high roster turnover will yield good opportunities for those in position to cash in. There are so many ways things can play out, you gotta figure its going to be something we didnt see, like the Dallas trade

I love that he says ---- Lost: None

We feel the same away about Tyson and Ray.

LivingLegend wrote:I love that he says ---- Lost: None

We feel the same away about Tyson and Ray.

yea.. clearly he actually watched a game or two from last year. Those two were terrible.

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:My biggest concern is the rotation, we have 7 guards that need to play, priggs, calderon, larkin, JR, shump, THJ, ellington, no way you can have success playing even 5 of them.

I thought woodson's biggest failure was maganging the rotation, and to me thats the grass roots of a special team.

Prigs and Ellington have to earn minutes in my opion.

If it was me I would start Dalembert/Melo/Shump/JR/Calderon with Amare/Larkin/THjr off the bench and Cole is the extra big based on foul trouble, matchups, etc.

Those would be my 8 guys. I would like to pump and dump Shump and move him for a pick and hopefully Early plays his way into the rotation. But Im not assuming all these guys get playing time.

Did we trade Bargs and no one posted a thread?
$11 mil to sit on the pine behind Cole? I mean, I didn't like his Knick debut any more than most on here, but even Phil has to have more financial acumen than that.

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:My biggest concern is the rotation, we have 7 guards that need to play, priggs, calderon, larkin, JR, shump, THJ, ellington, no way you can have success playing even 5 of them.

I thought woodson's biggest failure was maganging the rotation, and to me thats the grass roots of a special team.

Prigs and Ellington have to earn minutes in my opion.

If it was me I would start Dalembert/Melo/Shump/JR/Calderon with Amare/Larkin/THjr off the bench and Cole is the extra big based on foul trouble, matchups, etc.

Those would be my 8 guys. I would like to pump and dump Shump and move him for a pick and hopefully Early plays his way into the rotation. But Im not assuming all these guys get playing time.

Did we trade Bargs and no one posted a thread?
$11 mil to sit on the pine behind Cole? I mean, I didn't like his Knick debut any more than most on here, but even Phil has to have more financial acumen than that.

disagree... what if Bargs is badly outplayed by the ball boys assistant coaches small children looking for autographs other guys on the Knick roster? What happens then? Does Fisher keep running him out there while the other guys all know they are better just because Bargs is getting paid? He's in his last year and its hard to see him as part of the future. Why spoil chemisty on a guy who may have no role here?

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:My biggest concern is the rotation, we have 7 guards that need to play, priggs, calderon, larkin, JR, shump, THJ, ellington, no way you can have success playing even 5 of them.

I thought woodson's biggest failure was maganging the rotation, and to me thats the grass roots of a special team.

Prigs and Ellington have to earn minutes in my opion.

If it was me I would start Dalembert/Melo/Shump/JR/Calderon with Amare/Larkin/THjr off the bench and Cole is the extra big based on foul trouble, matchups, etc.

Those would be my 8 guys. I would like to pump and dump Shump and move him for a pick and hopefully Early plays his way into the rotation. But Im not assuming all these guys get playing time.

Did we trade Bargs and no one posted a thread?
$11 mil to sit on the pine behind Cole? I mean, I didn't like his Knick debut any more than most on here, but even Phil has to have more financial acumen than that.

our bigs are all injury prone, none have played more than 70 games in god knows how long, our guard are pretty durable.

1)I just don't want to make a trade for the sake of getting a guard off the roster

2)I would hate to get a low ball offer for one of our guards because they are all 1st rnd picks as far as(shump, jr, THJ and larkin)

3)Since there all young, aside from JR, who's really the odd man out? or would receive fewer minutes

4)with out minutes (unless someone gets hurt) how the hell do you increase there value

5)If they all start the season well (training camp/nov) and we are winning, do you want to mess up a good thing.

It's just a few things you have to ponder

Bargs if healthy will give you 15-21pts a game and 5-6 rebs.

Those are his career avg's. Not to many 7footers can give you that.

IF the Triangle can enhance his skill set we'll be crying when he leaves via free agency next summer to play for the Lakers.

Lets see how the season unfolds. Lower the bar on his expectations and we might be happy. If not, he walks and we thank him. Good either way.

Nalod wrote:Bargs if healthy will give you up 15-21pts a game and 5-6 11-12 rebs.

Those are his career avg's. Not to many 7footers can give you that.

IF the Triangle can enhance his skill set we'll be crying when he leaves via free agency next summer to play for the Lakers.

Lets see how the season unfolds. Lower the bar on his expectations and we might be happy. If not, he walks and we thank him. Good either way.

Bring on the wrath of Nixluva.

Nalod wrote:Bargs if healthy will give you 15-21pts a game and 5-6 rebs.

Those are his career avg's. Not to many 7footers can give you that.

IF the Triangle can enhance his skill set we'll be crying when he leaves via free agency next summer to play for the Lakers.

Lets see how the season unfolds. Lower the bar on his expectations and we might be happy. If not, he walks and we thank him. Good either way.

I expect the Knicks to play much better, and in doing that there are going to be some guys we have to say goodbye too... today its good riddance. However if we pull out another 50 win season its going to be alot tougher. I expect Amare to have a great season and Shump to also have a great season, two guys who I will be shocked if they are part of the team next year.

fishmike wrote:

jrodmc wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:My biggest concern is the rotation, we have 7 guards that need to play, priggs, calderon, larkin, JR, shump, THJ, ellington, no way you can have success playing even 5 of them.

I thought woodson's biggest failure was maganging the rotation, and to me thats the grass roots of a special team.

Prigs and Ellington have to earn minutes in my opion.

If it was me I would start Dalembert/Melo/Shump/JR/Calderon with Amare/Larkin/THjr off the bench and Cole is the extra big based on foul trouble, matchups, etc.

Those would be my 8 guys. I would like to pump and dump Shump and move him for a pick and hopefully Early plays his way into the rotation. But Im not assuming all these guys get playing time.

Did we trade Bargs and no one posted a thread?
$11 mil to sit on the pine behind Cole? I mean, I didn't like his Knick debut any more than most on here, but even Phil has to have more financial acumen than that.

disagree... what if Bargs is badly outplayed by the ball boys assistant coaches small children looking for autographs other guys on the Knick roster? What happens then? Does Fisher keep running him out there while the other guys all know they are better just because Bargs is getting paid? He's in his last year and its hard to see him as part of the future. Why spoil chemisty on a guy who may have no role here?

+1, nice. C'mon, now you know Bargs has always had trouble guarding smaller children, but the big, tall fat ones? no problem.
Bargs didn't get outplayed by Cole last year, did he? Jeremy Tyler? The Ghosts of Stat/Kmart? Woodson?

Wait a minute, isn't this the site where we were posting about Chris Smith?

Nalod wrote:Bargs if healthy will give you 15-21pts a game and 5-6 rebs.

Those are his career avg's. Not to many 7footers can give you that.

Just to clarify: you mean not many 7 footers would get so few rbs?

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Bargs if healthy will give you 15-21pts a game and 5-6 rebs.

Those are his career avg's. Not to many 7footers can give you that.

Just to clarify: you mean not many 7 footers would get so few rbs?

Or shoot their teams out of games

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Bargs if healthy will give you 15-21pts a game and 5-6 rebs.

Those are his career avg's. Not to many 7footers can give you that.

Just to clarify: you mean not many 7 footers would get so few rbs?

Or shoot their teams out of games

Or be so lost on defensive.

EwingsGlass wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

Nalod wrote:Bargs if healthy will give you 15-21pts a game and 5-6 rebs.

Those are his career avg's. Not to many 7footers can give you that.

Just to clarify: you mean not many 7 footers would get so few rbs?

Or shoot their teams out of games

Or be so lost on defensive.

or be the best inefficient shot maker.

I know it's easy to just bash Bargs, but Fish and Phil's job is to get him as right as they can. Both for the good of the team and to raise his trade value. Depending on how good Bargs does, you never know if phil might decide to keep him on a reasonable contract. To start the year only Melo and Bargs were playing well, but it's easy to forget how playing with Felton brought his game down too. When Tyson went down we won a bunch of games against tough competition with Bargs in there. Bargs was basically locking down other centers. It's not impossible to win with Bargs in the rotation. I think Phil is well aware of Bargs weaknesses and he's gonna do everything he can to work on those areas.

For all the crap that people love to spew about Bargs he has had some success as a player. 15, 17, 21 and 19 PPG over 4 years. He's never had a person like Phil in his corner. Maybe that can really be the difference. Fish has played with Gasol who also has had his issues with underperforming. Maybe he also learned something about how to get thru to a player like that from being there when Phil did his thing. Let's at least see what happens before we make final judgements. Bargs is 28 and hasn't had any knee surgeries. He's still got a chance to save his career and realize the talent he has.

nixluva wrote:I know it's easy to just bash Bargs, but Fish and Phil's job is to get him as right as they can. Both for the good of the team and to raise his trade value. Depending on how good Bargs does, you never know if phil might decide to keep him on a reasonable contract. To start the year only Melo and Bargs were playing well, but it's easy to forget how playing with Felton brought his game down too. When Tyson went down we won a bunch of games against tough competition with Bargs in there. Bargs was basically locking down other centers. It's not impossible to win with Bargs in the rotation. I think Phil is well aware of Bargs weaknesses and he's gonna do everything he can to work on those areas.

For all the crap that people love to spew about Bargs he has had some success as a player. 15, 17, 21 and 19 PPG over 4 years. He's never had a person like Phil in his corner. Maybe that can really be the difference. Fish has played with Gasol who also has had his issues with underperforming. Maybe he also learned something about how to get thru to a player like that from being there when Phil did his thing. Let's at least see what happens before we make final judgements. Bargs is 28 and hasn't had any knee surgeries. He's still got a chance to save his career and realize the talent he has.

Great post. I think Bargs has a great year. I think stability and Calderon will help him a lot.

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:I know it's easy to just bash Bargs, but Fish and Phil's job is to get him as right as they can. Both for the good of the team and to raise his trade value. Depending on how good Bargs does, you never know if phil might decide to keep him on a reasonable contract. To start the year only Melo and Bargs were playing well, but it's easy to forget how playing with Felton brought his game down too. When Tyson went down we won a bunch of games against tough competition with Bargs in there. Bargs was basically locking down other centers. It's not impossible to win with Bargs in the rotation. I think Phil is well aware of Bargs weaknesses and he's gonna do everything he can to work on those areas.

For all the crap that people love to spew about Bargs he has had some success as a player. 15, 17, 21 and 19 PPG over 4 years. He's never had a person like Phil in his corner. Maybe that can really be the difference. Fish has played with Gasol who also has had his issues with underperforming. Maybe he also learned something about how to get thru to a player like that from being there when Phil did his thing. Let's at least see what happens before we make final judgements. Bargs is 28 and hasn't had any knee surgeries. He's still got a chance to save his career and realize the talent he has.

Great post. I think Bargs has a great year. I think stability and Calderon will help him a lot.

Yeah I think if Phil knows how hard it is to find talent, he has to hope he can rehabilitate Bargs. That would be a huge coup for Phil if he could get Bargs playing at a higher level and up to his potential talent level. We need to catch a break like that. Let's be real here. It's not going to be easy to pull a Free Agent like Marc Gasol away from his team. It's not going to be easy to make a trade and bring back better talent. I'm not taking a pollyanna view towards rebuilding this team into a contender. It's VERY hard to do. IMO it starts with maximizing the talent you already have and then looking outside the team for more help. You should be getting the BEST from your talent regardless. You think the Spurs aren't maximizing the talent they have??? Clearly they do and we should also.

nixluva wrote:I know it's easy to just bash Bargs, but Fish and Phil's job is to get him as right as they can. Both for the good of the team and to raise his trade value. Depending on how good Bargs does, you never know if phil might decide to keep him on a reasonable contract. To start the year only Melo and Bargs were playing well, but it's easy to forget how playing with Felton brought his game down too. When Tyson went down we won a bunch of games against tough competition with Bargs in there. Bargs was basically locking down other centers. It's not impossible to win with Bargs in the rotation. I think Phil is well aware of Bargs weaknesses and he's gonna do everything he can to work on those areas.

For all the crap that people love to spew about Bargs he has had some success as a player. 15, 17, 21 and 19 PPG over 4 years. He's never had a person like Phil in his corner. Maybe that can really be the difference. Fish has played with Gasol who also has had his issues with underperforming. Maybe he also learned something about how to get thru to a player like that from being there when Phil did his thing. Let's at least see what happens before we make final judgements. Bargs is 28 and hasn't had any knee surgeries. He's still got a chance to save his career and realize the talent he has.

lets start with the negatives and build a case for bargnani:

1) he is a terrible rotator on defense, like most slow-footed white guys, and is only able to occasionally hold his own in single coverage, a flaw which is covered by the fact that there are so few effective big men in the league. for instance, tim duncan would utterly destroy bargani. al jefferson, paul milsap, aldridge, lopez, gasol brothers.
2) his usage to assist ratio is really quite bad, an indicator of undermining cohesion. this may be due to the notion that he is actually closer to a "finisher" than a playmaker-- but in my estimate this ratio is still way too high even for a finisher such as he, especially when you consider that his finishing is in the midrange area of the court, where he shoots closer to 50% than 60%. and 60% is an important marker for finishers.

these negative attributes put him in a pretty significant negative-sum hole. so what positives are we looking for with him? his defense is a lost cause.

1) we are hoping the triangle will help inculcate a better ball-sharing ethos, and with that in mind we assume he will be able to see the floor well enough to hit cutters. if this happens it will be reflected in a lower usage to assist rate ratio, say closer to 2:1 or lower.
2) we are hoping that his TS%, also abysmal at around 53.5%, will rise to closer to 58% or even higher.

assuming you understand the metrics i am sharing, do you feel confident that bargnani can rise to the occasion that the triangle will allegedly provide?

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:I know it's easy to just bash Bargs, but Fish and Phil's job is to get him as right as they can. Both for the good of the team and to raise his trade value. Depending on how good Bargs does, you never know if phil might decide to keep him on a reasonable contract. To start the year only Melo and Bargs were playing well, but it's easy to forget how playing with Felton brought his game down too. When Tyson went down we won a bunch of games against tough competition with Bargs in there. Bargs was basically locking down other centers. It's not impossible to win with Bargs in the rotation. I think Phil is well aware of Bargs weaknesses and he's gonna do everything he can to work on those areas.

For all the crap that people love to spew about Bargs he has had some success as a player. 15, 17, 21 and 19 PPG over 4 years. He's never had a person like Phil in his corner. Maybe that can really be the difference. Fish has played with Gasol who also has had his issues with underperforming. Maybe he also learned something about how to get thru to a player like that from being there when Phil did his thing. Let's at least see what happens before we make final judgements. Bargs is 28 and hasn't had any knee surgeries. He's still got a chance to save his career and realize the talent he has.

lets start with the negatives and build a case for bargnani:

1) he is a terrible rotator on defense, like most slow-footed white guys, and is only able to occasionally hold his own in single coverage, a flaw which is covered by the fact that there are so few effective big men in the league. for instance, tim duncan would utterly destroy bargani. al jefferson, paul milsap, aldridge, lopez, gasol brothers.
2) his usage to assist ratio is really quite bad, an indicator of undermining cohesion. this may be due to the notion that he is actually closer to a "finisher" than a playmaker-- but in my estimate this ratio is still way too high even for a finisher such as he, especially when you consider that his finishing is in the midrange area of the court, where he shoots closer to 50% than 60%. and 60% is an important marker for finishers.

these negative attributes put him in a pretty significant negative-sum hole. so what positives are we looking for with him? his defense is a lost cause.

1) we are hoping the triangle will help inculcate a better ball-sharing ethos, and with that in mind we assume he will be able to see the floor well enough to hit cutters. if this happens it will be reflected in a lower usage to assist rate ratio, say closer to 2:1 or lower.
2) we are hoping that his TS%, also abysmal at around 53.5%, will rise to closer to 58% or even higher.

assuming you understand the metrics i am sharing, do you feel confident that bargnani can rise to the occasion that the triangle will allegedly provide?

I'm insulted by your comment about metrics. PLEASE. Bargs has always been a solid man defender. That was proven again last year. As for him being a "slow footed white guy", that's not true. He simply doesn't think the game like a paint defender. He's always been more of a giant SF. He can learn to play better paint defense. Not saying he'll be great but he can get better if he's taught the right defensive technique and principles. He actually did start to get better last year the more he played center.

I do believe that Bargs can become a good passer in the triangle. He's never really been put in a situation where he could make a lot passes like bigs do in the Triangle. He can in fact pass tho. Bargs is more talented than you give him credit for. He can block shots and he's not slow. He was getting his confidence back at the beginning of the year when Tyson went down and then as Felton, JR and Shump continued to suck that dragged him down with them. Imagine when he started the year 16-6-1 blk a game if we had jose instead and he was helping Bargs rather than freezing him out? Bargs might have done even more and got his mojo back.