Knicks · Why Knicks Fans Should Believe (page 3)
foosballnick wrote:dk7th wrote:Papabear wrote:dk7th wrote:in the 56 games that melo shot 18 or more times the knicks compiled a 20-36 record for .357
in the 21 games that melo shot less than 18 shots the knicks compiled a 12-9 record for .571Papabear Says
Show where you got these stats and show me the stats of the 3 years that Melo was here. You cherry pick last year. Prove your facts.
two seasons ago jason kidd was there to save the knicks' ass, followed by prigioni? knicks went .500 when kidd hit that final wall-- you know that wall... unless you never played ball.
you want to research how he did the prior seasons then have at it... i recommend your doing this research in twelve-minute increments and with two-hour naps in between.
"prove your facts"
this one is a classic... i am going to have to steal it.
Melo played 77 games in 2013-14
At 18 Shots or Better Knicks record was 23-35 (.396)
At 17 Shots and Under Knicks record was 12-7 (.631)Melo played 67 games in 2012-13
At 18 Shots or Better Knicks record was 38-16 (.703)
At 17 Shots and Under Knicks record was 9-4 (.692)So what does this tell us? Over the last 2 seasons that Melo taking 18 shots in a game seems to have no correlation to the wins and losses as DK is trying to point out.....It also tells us that DK needs to make sure that the data he is quoting is correct if he wants to have any credibility. Further it tells us that DK is being petty when he tells people like Papa to get their own facts......as all this took was a trip to Basketball Reference and a download to excel and a quick pivot table report.....literally 5 minutes of my time.
Based on this, I'm apt to go with the OP premise that the Knicks did not perform last year because of inferior guard play (mainly Felton) and a coach who lost the team (although it was not totally his fault as Dolan took the power away from him by forcing brother Smith on him).
Papabear Says
Foosballnick thanks for the post. This is what D7 do all the time. He mislead,and Fabricate things. He got called out. However you will see this all season long. He has no credibility. All he knows how to do is hate on Melo.
dk7th wrote:Papabear wrote:dk7th wrote:Papabear wrote:dk7th wrote:in the 56 games that melo shot 18 or more times the knicks compiled a 20-36 record for .357
in the 21 games that melo shot less than 18 shots the knicks compiled a 12-9 record for .571Papabear Says
Show where you got these stats and show me the stats of the 3 years that Melo was here. You cherry pick last year. Prove your facts.
two seasons ago jason kidd was there to save the knicks' ass, followed by prigioni? knicks went .500 when kidd hit that final wall-- you know that wall... unless you never played ball.
you want to research how he did the prior seasons then have at it... i recommend your doing this research in twelve-minute increments and with two-hour naps in between.
"prove your facts"
this one is a classic... i am going to have to steal it.
Papabear Says
You are such a liar! Thats why they call you the Troll of the forum. You throw out all these statements with no backup. Show us where you got these facts. If it's true I will apologize to you. Whats so hard about that!! Unless you are telling a lie and fabricate things like you always do.
The facts man nothing but the facts.here are the facts you seek, oh great swami....
Papabear Says
You know you are a real joke. You picked the numbers to mislead this forum. Why did you pick 18 points? Why not 10 points as your starting point. What you are saying means nothing. You forgot to put in the games that Tyson was out injured and Amare, Bongovi was out. Punch those numbers in. You might as well face it! Melo is here for 5 long years. Thats a long time to hate someone. As a matter a fact it's sick.
fishmike wrote:this is priceless... and ironic. Bargs had 20/11 started at center and the Knicks won that game
I still remember that play. I screamed at my tv so loud the neighbors probably almost called the cops lol
It's all too easy to just say the whole Knicks team stinks and they can never win with these players. Well Phil and Fish are saying they can win games with this team. They aren't crazy tho and are not saying they will win a title as built, but it is possible to set a culture and a winning attitude in this franchise. With sound decisions from the management, good coaching, a legit and proven system in place and solid on court and in the locker room leadership a team can win games. The new culture here is about TEAM and better execution. Phil wants to establish better fundamentals and a better environment in which players can thrive and maximize their talents.
This is a somewhat long article, but it's good to read and get the thinking of Phil Jackson on how he sees his task with this franchise.
In my view, the Knicks needed to pick up the pace, move the ball more effectively, and play a tougher brand of basketball.What intrigued me about the job was the opportunity to re-create the culture from the ground up, much as I had hoped to do with the ill-starred franchise in Seattle. Jim had pledged to give me full authority over the basketball operations and a free hand to make whatever changes were necessary to bring another championship to New York.
Still, I wondered how much impact I could have given the fact that the team was seriously over-extended vis-à-vis the new collective bargaining agreement. The Knicks had eight players under contract for 2014-2015, including Chandler, Amar’e Stoudemire and Andrea Bargnani, for combined salaries of around $50 million, and the current salary cap was $58.7 million. Not only that, but the team’s only bona fide star — Carmelo Anthony — had announced that he was planning to test the free agent market in the off-season. Plus the Knicks didn’t have any draft picks to play around with and many of the top players were recovering from injuries. This would be an interesting ride.
When I arrived in New York, my first job was to stabilize the direction of the Knicks and get everybody in the organization speaking in one voice about where we were headed. I wasn’t talking about making a quick turnaround, but building a strong, sustainable future for the team based on the principles of teamwork and selflessness outlined in this book.
For me, the key is building trust. I don’t want to be the kind of president who huddles privately with the GM and keeps everyone else in the dark. In my new role, I’m not going to be as hands-on with the team as I was as a coach, but I can open up the circle and make sure everybody with good ideas gets a chance to be heard.
We have some talented people in this organization, but they need more direction. Our scouts and analysts also need to align the tons of information on potential prospects they churn out every day with our long-range vision for the team. To that end, we’re planning to analyze every team in the league and figure out as a group what’s driving them, so that we can make moves now that will make sense three to five years down the road.
New York is a media pressure-cooker and the Knicks have been hurt frequently in the past by ill-conceived leaks to reporters. Nevertheless, I’m not a fan of putting tight restrictions on the media. Instead I prefer to build trust within the group so that everyone is committed to protecting the team’s most vital secrets. It’s a tricky dance sometimes. I’ve spent a lot of time during my first weeks in New York dispelling rumors about what moves I’m planning to make. Every time a bogus story surfaces in the media, my message to the staff is: Don’t worry. We’re not deviating from our long-range plan. The key is to trust each other. And if somebody violates that trust, then we’ll deal with it. You may be able to fool me once, but never twice.
Another thing I intend to address is the team’s culture of indifference. Back in pre-historic times when I was a player, we didn’t have an in-house concierge service. We had to wash our own clothes, distribute our own tickets, and take care of our nutrition plans (if that’s what you want to call meals at the Carnegie Deli). I’m not saying we should go back to the DIY system, but we need to re-establish the sense of professional responsibility that went with it. The question is: Are the Knicks going to be a coddled group of players who have to rely on somebody else to look after their every whim or a team of serious-minded professionals whose top priority is getting the job done?
During my second campaign with the Lakers, we had some great team leaders — Kobe, Derek Fisher, Pau Gasol — who often went through hell physically to play the entire season. During my final year, we had six players who played all 82 games. In 2013-14 the Knicks didn’t have one. The goal is not to be super macho, but to fight each battle together and protect the team’s hard-won bond.Resilience isn’t the Knicks’ biggest problem, however. When I talked to the players in the postseason, many of them said that they really liked their teammates off-court, but not everybody was on the same page when they hit the floor. And, contrary to media reports, they didn’t blame the coach for their lack of harmony; they blamed themselves. They hadn’t been willing, they confessed, to make the sacrifices necessary to join together as a team.
It’s good to be back in New York. Although the city has changed dramatically since my first trip here as a rookie forty-seven years ago, it still feels like home to me. I love the energy, the intelligence, the pace of life in the city. In L.A. you can hide in your own bubble for weeks on end. But in New York you have shoulder-to-shoulder contact with the whole world everywhere you go. It’s invigorating.
No question, I have a big job ahead of me. Now that we’ve hired Derek Fisher as the new head coach, we need to bring in a some new players to complement Carmelo (who has decided to stay with the Knicks), change the team chemistry and give the team more of the grit and character New York is famous for. Derek was an exceptional leader when he played for me on the Lakers and I’m certain he’ll inspire the players to meld together and play the game the right way.Soon, the honeymoon will be over. I can already sense the sharks circling in the water. But that doesn’t bother me. What matters now is waking up every morning and getting a chance to do something I’ve always dreamed of: re-awakening the team that Red Holzman built, the team that changed my life forever.
Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basket...
nixluva wrote:I started this thread because I know it's all too easy to just generalize or pick on a player or 2 that people don't like and try to make them the reason for the losing. I think if you look at any successful team the success starts at the top. Just cuz a team has talent doesn't guarantee wins.
Ironically, that's what you did in your opening post.
knickscity wrote:nixluva wrote:I started this thread because I know it's all too easy to just generalize or pick on a player or 2 that people don't like and try to make them the reason for the losing. I think if you look at any successful team the success starts at the top. Just cuz a team has talent doesn't guarantee wins.Ironically, that's what you did in your opening post.
lol
knickscity wrote:nixluva wrote:I started this thread because I know it's all too easy to just generalize or pick on a player or 2 that people don't like and try to make them the reason for the losing. I think if you look at any successful team the success starts at the top. Just cuz a team has talent doesn't guarantee wins.Ironically, that's what you did in your opening post.
Nice try, but no I didn't just generalize ie "the Knicks suck", "every player deserves the blame" nor did I pick on Felton cuz I didn't like him ie "Melo sucks". I was SPECIFIC and gave a very clear and detailed explanation of how Dolan and Woody, 2 NON PLAYERS in charge of making decisions, preparing and leading this team, failed. Also how the on the floor leader of the offense, Felton, didn't get it done. That in turn had a direct impact on how the entire team played, which as we all know was below their capabilities. Those 3 represent the rudder of the ship. The team can't succeed if those 3 don't do a good job. You can survive another player underperforming or having a slump. However, if you are being directed off a cliff by your Owner, Head Coach and starting PG the entire rest of the team goes down with them. They have no choice.
Now we have replaced those 3 with Phil, Fish and Jose. They have at least the history of being leaders, good decision makers and a good on the floor leader who is good in the locker room as well. That is not just generalizing and displaying blind faith as some have put it. So far the evidence shows there is a change in the way things are being handled. The depth of thought going into planning and decision making is much clearer. That's why I posted the thoughts of Phil to give a bit more insight into how he's thinking and what goes into his decision making for this franchise. I think you couldn't be more wrong in your take on my posts. Then again a one sentence retort to my posts had very little chance of being accurate anyway. How about laying out a well thought out reason for what you think about last years Knicks and this new Knicks regime.
nixluva wrote:knickscity wrote:nixluva wrote:I started this thread because I know it's all too easy to just generalize or pick on a player or 2 that people don't like and try to make them the reason for the losing. I think if you look at any successful team the success starts at the top. Just cuz a team has talent doesn't guarantee wins.Ironically, that's what you did in your opening post.
Nice try, but no I didn't just generalize ie "the Knicks suck", "every player deserves the blame" nor did I pick on Felton cuz I didn't like him ie "Melo sucks". I was SPECIFIC and gave a very clear and detailed explanation of how Dolan and Woody, 2 NON PLAYERS in charge of making decisions, preparing and leading this team, failed. Also how the on the floor leader of the offense, Felton, didn't get it done. That in turn had a direct impact on how the entire team played, which as we all know was below their capabilities. Those 3 represent the rudder of the ship. The team can't succeed if those 3 don't do a good job. You can survive another player underperforming or having a slump. However, if you are being directed off a cliff by your Owner, Head Coach and starting PG the entire rest of the team goes down with them. They have no choice.
Now we have replaced those 3 with Phil, Fish and Jose. They have at least the history of being leaders, good decision makers and a good on the floor leader who is good in the locker room as well. That is not just generalizing and displaying blind faith as some have put it. So far the evidence shows there is a change in the way things are being handled. The depth of thought going into planning and decision making is much clearer. That's why I posted the thoughts of Phil to give a bit more insight into how he's thinking and what goes into his decision making for this franchise. I think you couldn't be more wrong in your take on my posts. Then again a one sentence retort to my posts had very little chance of being accurate anyway. How about laying out a well thought out reason for what you think about last years Knicks and this new Knicks regime.
Look my man, you made the thread blaming Felton and Woodson and you certainly put them as ultimate blame for the season, you've debated that several times in this thread, so no need to pretend you havent...the posts are there for anyone's viewing.
But you're absoulutely displaying blind faith because neither of the entities have done their respective roles before, yet you truly believe they WILL be successful with no doubt of failure.
Phil has NEVER ran a team from the office and quite honestly never had to build a team from the ground.....he can do well, he can also fail depending on results.
Fisher despite being groomed by Phil will have to make decisions as a coach and has NEVER been in the role....he as well can fail, and he can also do well...depending on results.
Calderon has NEVER been viewed in the light you're putting him in, certainly not on an NBA level. I cant recall any raptors fans being upset calderon was traded....just like Bargnani, they were happy to see them go.....primarily because their lack of defense eclipses what they bring on offense. Their teams just couldnt cover that aspect up no matter what.
Also in the triangle, Calderon is minimized....his strength is ball control even morseo than shooting which is top notch as well, and he wont have ball control, and honestly I dont know what he's able to do without the ball in his hands exclusively.
I said this before, but Fisher may need to really analyze if the triangle is best for THIS group as it may not be, and when he was introduced he stated plainly his offense WILL be determined by the personnel so he may have to go against Phil's desire "on the court". This team under any circumstances cannot be a loser next season.....not when you want to attract free agents, not when you have a maxed out melo that just missed the playoffs and is banking on you to help him win, and certainly does not want to spend consecutive years as LOSER. I wouldnt even know what kind of culture can be harvested with losing in the middle of it.
These Knicks are vets, their patience in something wont last long if it isnt working, and that will sprinkle onto the kids who arent quite good enough to hold the fort down if the vets arent producing.
This could work well, sure it very well could.....it can also implode. next year being successful is crucial.
Call me what you want though, but three entities in new roles and a team full of players who are used to doing things their way is a recipe for an implosion, but I have no doubt they will try everything they are taught, I just have my doubts if it will work.
dk7th wrote:H1AND1 wrote:dk7th wrote:CrushAlot wrote:dk7th wrote:That is what Phil is saying. Phil Jackson on whether Melo has to change way he plays: I think we have to change some of the people around Carmelogunsnewing wrote:lol stats are cuteespecially when the narrative is "other players are the problem and melo is the hero"
interesting that you keep coming back to this quote. this has been the story of melo's whole career, hasn't it? you wonder why his teams have almost never clicked-- there's a common denominator and it isn't "the other players."
But to be fair, I don't think you can say the problem is always one or the other. Sometimes it very well could've been because of Melo's frustrating tendency to favor a ball stopping style AND THEN SOMETIMES it could've been because the cast around him was putrid. Or, couldn't it sometimes be a combination?
I'm not trying to defend one argument over the next just making the point that things are rarely black and white. As much as I have been and am personally critical of Melos game I don't think you can _always_ pin the blame on him for a teams success or failure
you make an interesting and rather heartfelt case for giving this guy the benefit of the doubt. of course it's a combination-- but here's the thing: you cannot afford to pay a guy that much money in the hopes that he will somehow magically make better decisions. in other words, historically he is a POOR DECISION MAKER and i have grave doubts the triangle and coaching will force him into making him a BETTER DECISION MAKER.
I get all that. I said all along I would've rather not brought Anthony back at $125 million or whatever it is. The thing is, he _was_ brought back and so there is noting I can do except _hope_ that Phil and Fisher can somehow get through to him.
I don't think Phil is hoping for magic either. Certainly, what holds Anthony back is not a lack of talent. He clearly possesses the ability to play a much more well rounded game. Whatever flaws permeate his game are there due to bad habit, bad decision making etc.
I agree, it's definitely a huge gamble but I just have to assume after speaking with Anthony probably more times than anyone other than staff knows Phil is betting his legacy on turning this guy into the focal point on a team that will be the capstone of his career. A career that is unblemished and no doubt Phil and his considerable ego would prefer it stays that way.
So I'm just choosing to wait and see what happens because what else can I do?
knickscity wrote:nixluva wrote:knickscity wrote:nixluva wrote:I started this thread because I know it's all too easy to just generalize or pick on a player or 2 that people don't like and try to make them the reason for the losing. I think if you look at any successful team the success starts at the top. Just cuz a team has talent doesn't guarantee wins.Ironically, that's what you did in your opening post.
Nice try, but no I didn't just generalize ie "the Knicks suck", "every player deserves the blame" nor did I pick on Felton cuz I didn't like him ie "Melo sucks". I was SPECIFIC and gave a very clear and detailed explanation of how Dolan and Woody, 2 NON PLAYERS in charge of making decisions, preparing and leading this team, failed. Also how the on the floor leader of the offense, Felton, didn't get it done. That in turn had a direct impact on how the entire team played, which as we all know was below their capabilities. Those 3 represent the rudder of the ship. The team can't succeed if those 3 don't do a good job. You can survive another player underperforming or having a slump. However, if you are being directed off a cliff by your Owner, Head Coach and starting PG the entire rest of the team goes down with them. They have no choice.
Now we have replaced those 3 with Phil, Fish and Jose. They have at least the history of being leaders, good decision makers and a good on the floor leader who is good in the locker room as well. That is not just generalizing and displaying blind faith as some have put it. So far the evidence shows there is a change in the way things are being handled. The depth of thought going into planning and decision making is much clearer. That's why I posted the thoughts of Phil to give a bit more insight into how he's thinking and what goes into his decision making for this franchise. I think you couldn't be more wrong in your take on my posts. Then again a one sentence retort to my posts had very little chance of being accurate anyway. How about laying out a well thought out reason for what you think about last years Knicks and this new Knicks regime.
Look my man, you made the thread blaming Felton and Woodson and you certainly put them as ultimate blame for the season, you've debated that several times in this thread, so no need to pretend you havent...the posts are there for anyone's viewing.But you're absoulutely displaying blind faith because neither of the entities have done their respective roles before, yet you truly believe they WILL be successful with no doubt of failure.
Phil has NEVER ran a team from the office and quite honestly never had to build a team from the ground.....he can do well, he can also fail depending on results.
Fisher despite being groomed by Phil will have to make decisions as a coach and has NEVER been in the role....he as well can fail, and he can also do well...depending on results.
Calderon has NEVER been viewed in the light you're putting him in, certainly not on an NBA level. I cant recall any raptors fans being upset calderon was traded....just like Bargnani, they were happy to see them go.....primarily because their lack of defense eclipses what they bring on offense. Their teams just couldnt cover that aspect up no matter what.
Also in the triangle, Calderon is minimized....his strength is ball control even morseo than shooting which is top notch as well, and he wont have ball control, and honestly I dont know what he's able to do without the ball in his hands exclusively.
I said this before, but Fisher may need to really analyze if the triangle is best for THIS group as it may not be, and when he was introduced he stated plainly his offense WILL be determined by the personnel so he may have to go against Phil's desire "on the court". This team under any circumstances cannot be a loser next season.....not when you want to attract free agents, not when you have a maxed out melo that just missed the playoffs and is banking on you to help him win, and certainly does not want to spend consecutive years as LOSER. I wouldnt even know what kind of culture can be harvested with losing in the middle of it.
These Knicks are vets, their patience in something wont last long if it isnt working, and that will sprinkle onto the kids who arent quite good enough to hold the fort down if the vets arent producing.
This could work well, sure it very well could.....it can also implode. next year being successful is crucial.
Call me what you want though, but three entities in new roles and a team full of players who are used to doing things their way is a recipe for an implosion, but I have no doubt they will try everything they are taught, I just have my doubts if it will work.
There you go! Was that so hard? A more thorough and reasoned argument is all I ask.
Now as i've said and you STILL don't understand, it's about the fact that Dolan, Woody and Felton occupied a very important set of roles for this team. Those roles IMO gave them a higher degree of culpability in the teams success or failure. I laid that out over the course of this thread. NOTHING you wrote refutes my contention that you can't really succeed if your Top decision maker ie Dolan is making horrid decisions. You can't succeed if your Head Coach is compromised by the Owner, GM or President. In our case Dolan put himself in the mix as the de facto President of BB. Woody was a complete MESS last year. That effected the entire team by default since the Head Coach is responsible for the entire team. Felton as the starting PG carried a heavy responsibility as well. He's at the head of the offense and defense. You can't have that player perform at the level of the #40 PG n the league and expect success.
POINT GUARDS 2014
PLAYER RATING GP MPG PPG RPG APG FG % FT %
1. Stephen Curry, GS 91.01 78 36.5 24.0 4.3 8.5 47.1 88.5
2. John Wall, WAS 85.75 82 36.3 19.3 4.1 8.8 43.3 80.5
3. Damian Lillard, POR 83.88 82 35.8 20.7 3.5 5.6 42.4 87.1
4. Kyle Lowry, TOR 82.66 79 36.2 17.9 4.7 7.4 42.3 81.3
5. Goran Dragic, PHO 82.20 76 35.1 20.3 3.2 5.9 50.5 76.0
6. Monta Ellis, DAL 82.17 82 36.9 19.0 3.6 5.7 45.1 78.8
7. Kyrie Irving, CLE 79.33 71 35.2 20.8 3.6 6.1 43.0 86.1
8. Isaiah Thomas, SAC 77.10 72 34.7 20.3 2.9 6.3 45.3 85.0
9. Kemba Walker, CHA 76.92 73 35.8 17.7 4.2 6.1 39.3 83.7
10. Chris Paul, LAC 76.63 62 35.0 19.1 4.3 10.7 46.7 85.5
11. Jeff Teague, ATL 76.61 79 32.2 16.5 2.6 6.7 43.8 84.6
12. Brandon Jennings, DET 75.73 80 34.1 15.5 3.0 7.6 37.3 75.1
13. Mike Conley, MEM 75.63 73 33.5 17.2 2.9 6.0 45.0 81.5
14. M Carter-Williams, PHI 74.54 70 34.5 16.7 6.2 6.3 40.5 70.3
15. Ricky Rubio, MIN 74.05 82 32.2 9.5 4.2 8.6 38.1 80.2
16. Brandon Knight, MIL 73.05 72 33.3 17.9 3.5 4.9 42.2 80.2
17. Reggie Jackson, OKC 72.15 80 28.5 13.1 3.9 4.1 44.0 89.3
18. Jose Calderon, DAL 71.64 81 30.5 11.4 2.4 4.7 45.6 82.5
19. Randy Foye, DEN 71.06 81 30.7 13.2 2.9 3.5 41.3 84.9
20. Ty Lawson, DEN 70.42 62 35.8 17.6 3.5 8.8 43.1 79.8
21. George Hill, IND 69.64 76 32.0 10.3 3.7 3.5 44.2 80.7
22. Alec Burks, UTA 69.58 78 28.1 14.0 3.3 2.7 45.7 74.8
23. Tony Parker, SA 69.42 68 29.4 16.7 2.3 5.7 49.9 81.1
24. Tyreke Evans, NO 68.61 72 28.2 14.5 4.7 5.0 43.6 77.1
25. Darren Collison, LAC 68.17 80 25.9 11.4 2.4 3.7 46.7 85.7
26. Ramon Sessions, MIL 67.88 83 26.7 12.3 2.4 4.1 42.9 80.7
27. Trey Burke, UTA (Rookie) 67.28 70 32.3 12.8 3.0 5.7 38.0 90.3
28. Jameer Nelson, ORL 66.59 68 32.0 12.1 3.4 7.0 39.4 85.7
29. Jarrett Jack, CLE 66.01 80 28.2 9.5 2.8 4.0 41.0 83.9
30. Mario Chalmers, MIA 64.69 73 29.8 9.8 2.9 4.9 45.4 74.2
31. Deron Williams, BKN 64.52 64 32.2 14.3 2.6 6.1 45.0 80.1
32. Jeremy Lin, HOU 64.46 71 28.9 12.5 2.6 4.1 44.6 82.3
33. D.J. Augustin, CHI 64.05 71 27.3 13.1 1.8 4.4 41.5 88.5
34. Shaun Livingston, BKN 63.47 76 26.0 8.3 3.2 3.2 48.3 82.7
35. Rodney Stuckey, DET 62.81 73 26.7 13.9 2.3 2.1 43.6 83.6
36. Greivis Vasquez, TOR 62.59 79 22.5 9.6 2.2 4.1 42.1 88.0
37. Patty Mills, SA 62.53 81 18.9 10.2 2.1 1.8 46.4 89.0
38. Mo Williams, POR 62.30 74 24.8 9.7 2.1 4.3 41.7 87.6
39. Kirk Hinrich, CHI 61.09 73 29.0 9.1 2.6 3.9 39.3 76.0
40. Norris Cole, MIA 59.70 82 24.6 6.4 2.0 3.0 41.4 77.9
41. Avery Bradley, BOS 58.50 60 30.9 14.8 3.8 1.4 43.8 80.4
42. Brian Roberts, NO 58.27 72 23.2 9.4 1.9 3.2 42.0 94.0
43. Raymond Felton, NY 57.77 65 31.0 9.7 3.0 5.6 39.5 72.1
I disagree about your assessment of Jose. Sure Jose won't be playing as a ball dominant PG, but he still will have an impact on the team as a leader who can direct players if they're in the wrong spots. He'll still have times when he's in the 2 man game in the Pinch Post to do what a good PG does. He'll be very important as a 3pt weapon as well. He'll still have a voice in the locker room and can help his teammates with advice and direction. There's no doubt that he'll be more effective than Felton would be in the same position.
From reading what you wrote about the Vets being able or willing to accept the Triangle is somewhat valid. Any team going to a new offense is going to have some adjustment issues. What makes it go easier is having players like Jose who are mature and easy to coach. Fish has already had some success with the kids quickly adjusting to the offense. It gives a lot more of a positive spin on the prospects of him getting the vets to learn the offense. He already has players who can demonstrate the basics quite well. The toughest part of the offense is the details of the footwork and spacing. The team must master those aspects and be diligent to execute in order for the offense to work at a high level. Let's not overstate this tho cuz it's not rocket science.
The culture Phil is building will make it easier to win, not harder. Getting his players to think about sharing the ball is a frame of mind as well as the technical ball and player moves in the system. Phil has proven he can get players to buy in. Fish has been a vocal leader on his teams for years and so far has been building a good rapport with his players in a short time they had. No one can guarantee the future. That's not what this is about. You can prepare for success tho. IMO that starts with putting good, qualified people in key places at the lead of your team. Phil, Fish and Jose are those kinds of people. Nothing in their past would warrant pessimism about the job they will do.
H1AND1 wrote:dk7th wrote:H1AND1 wrote:dk7th wrote:CrushAlot wrote:dk7th wrote:That is what Phil is saying. Phil Jackson on whether Melo has to change way he plays: I think we have to change some of the people around Carmelogunsnewing wrote:lol stats are cuteespecially when the narrative is "other players are the problem and melo is the hero"
interesting that you keep coming back to this quote. this has been the story of melo's whole career, hasn't it? you wonder why his teams have almost never clicked-- there's a common denominator and it isn't "the other players."
But to be fair, I don't think you can say the problem is always one or the other. Sometimes it very well could've been because of Melo's frustrating tendency to favor a ball stopping style AND THEN SOMETIMES it could've been because the cast around him was putrid. Or, couldn't it sometimes be a combination?
I'm not trying to defend one argument over the next just making the point that things are rarely black and white. As much as I have been and am personally critical of Melos game I don't think you can _always_ pin the blame on him for a teams success or failure
you make an interesting and rather heartfelt case for giving this guy the benefit of the doubt. of course it's a combination-- but here's the thing: you cannot afford to pay a guy that much money in the hopes that he will somehow magically make better decisions. in other words, historically he is a POOR DECISION MAKER and i have grave doubts the triangle and coaching will force him into making him a BETTER DECISION MAKER.
I get all that. I said all along I would've rather not brought Anthony back at $125 million or whatever it is. The thing is, he _was_ brought back and so there is noting I can do except _hope_ that Phil and Fisher can somehow get through to him.
I don't think Phil is hoping for magic either. Certainly, what holds Anthony back is not a lack of talent. He clearly possesses the ability to play a much more well rounded game. Whatever flaws permeate his game are there due to bad habit, bad decision making etc.
I agree, it's definitely a huge gamble but I just have to assume after speaking with Anthony probably more times than anyone other than staff knows Phil is betting his legacy on turning this guy into the focal point on a team that will be the capstone of his career. A career that is unblemished and no doubt Phil and his considerable ego would prefer it stays that way.
So I'm just choosing to wait and see what happens because what else can I do?
i agree with everything you wrote. i too am hopeful, but lets face it, this is the sort of weird weird hope born of desperation and no other choices at this point... hence there is an admixture of pessimism for me. fair or not, these are my feelings about the knicks.
In the end it comes down to Melo and Jr Smith. When they are on there games the Knicks are capable of going on 18-6, 18-6, 16-4(or what ever it was) type of runs. Hopefully the triangle gives them a platform to be less streaky.
nixluva wrote:knickscity wrote:nixluva wrote:knickscity wrote:nixluva wrote:I started this thread because I know it's all too easy to just generalize or pick on a player or 2 that people don't like and try to make them the reason for the losing. I think if you look at any successful team the success starts at the top. Just cuz a team has talent doesn't guarantee wins.Ironically, that's what you did in your opening post.
Nice try, but no I didn't just generalize ie "the Knicks suck", "every player deserves the blame" nor did I pick on Felton cuz I didn't like him ie "Melo sucks". I was SPECIFIC and gave a very clear and detailed explanation of how Dolan and Woody, 2 NON PLAYERS in charge of making decisions, preparing and leading this team, failed. Also how the on the floor leader of the offense, Felton, didn't get it done. That in turn had a direct impact on how the entire team played, which as we all know was below their capabilities. Those 3 represent the rudder of the ship. The team can't succeed if those 3 don't do a good job. You can survive another player underperforming or having a slump. However, if you are being directed off a cliff by your Owner, Head Coach and starting PG the entire rest of the team goes down with them. They have no choice.
Now we have replaced those 3 with Phil, Fish and Jose. They have at least the history of being leaders, good decision makers and a good on the floor leader who is good in the locker room as well. That is not just generalizing and displaying blind faith as some have put it. So far the evidence shows there is a change in the way things are being handled. The depth of thought going into planning and decision making is much clearer. That's why I posted the thoughts of Phil to give a bit more insight into how he's thinking and what goes into his decision making for this franchise. I think you couldn't be more wrong in your take on my posts. Then again a one sentence retort to my posts had very little chance of being accurate anyway. How about laying out a well thought out reason for what you think about last years Knicks and this new Knicks regime.
Look my man, you made the thread blaming Felton and Woodson and you certainly put them as ultimate blame for the season, you've debated that several times in this thread, so no need to pretend you havent...the posts are there for anyone's viewing.But you're absoulutely displaying blind faith because neither of the entities have done their respective roles before, yet you truly believe they WILL be successful with no doubt of failure.
Phil has NEVER ran a team from the office and quite honestly never had to build a team from the ground.....he can do well, he can also fail depending on results.
Fisher despite being groomed by Phil will have to make decisions as a coach and has NEVER been in the role....he as well can fail, and he can also do well...depending on results.
Calderon has NEVER been viewed in the light you're putting him in, certainly not on an NBA level. I cant recall any raptors fans being upset calderon was traded....just like Bargnani, they were happy to see them go.....primarily because their lack of defense eclipses what they bring on offense. Their teams just couldnt cover that aspect up no matter what.
Also in the triangle, Calderon is minimized....his strength is ball control even morseo than shooting which is top notch as well, and he wont have ball control, and honestly I dont know what he's able to do without the ball in his hands exclusively.
I said this before, but Fisher may need to really analyze if the triangle is best for THIS group as it may not be, and when he was introduced he stated plainly his offense WILL be determined by the personnel so he may have to go against Phil's desire "on the court". This team under any circumstances cannot be a loser next season.....not when you want to attract free agents, not when you have a maxed out melo that just missed the playoffs and is banking on you to help him win, and certainly does not want to spend consecutive years as LOSER. I wouldnt even know what kind of culture can be harvested with losing in the middle of it.
These Knicks are vets, their patience in something wont last long if it isnt working, and that will sprinkle onto the kids who arent quite good enough to hold the fort down if the vets arent producing.
This could work well, sure it very well could.....it can also implode. next year being successful is crucial.
Call me what you want though, but three entities in new roles and a team full of players who are used to doing things their way is a recipe for an implosion, but I have no doubt they will try everything they are taught, I just have my doubts if it will work.
There you go! Was that so hard? A more thorough and reasoned argument is all I ask.Now as i've said and you STILL don't understand, it's about the fact that Dolan, Woody and Felton occupied a very important set of roles for this team. Those roles IMO gave them a higher degree of culpability in the teams success or failure. I laid that out over the course of this thread. NOTHING you wrote refutes my contention that you can't really succeed if your Top decision maker ie Dolan is making horrid decisions. You can't succeed if your Head Coach is compromised by the Owner, GM or President. In our case Dolan put himself in the mix as the de facto President of BB. Woody was a complete MESS last year. That effected the entire team by default since the Head Coach is responsible for the entire team. Felton as the starting PG carried a heavy responsibility as well. He's at the head of the offense and defense. You can't have that player perform at the level of the #40 PG n the league and expect success.
POINT GUARDS 2014
PLAYER RATING GP MPG PPG RPG APG FG % FT %
1. Stephen Curry, GS 91.01 78 36.5 24.0 4.3 8.5 47.1 88.5
2. John Wall, WAS 85.75 82 36.3 19.3 4.1 8.8 43.3 80.5
3. Damian Lillard, POR 83.88 82 35.8 20.7 3.5 5.6 42.4 87.1
4. Kyle Lowry, TOR 82.66 79 36.2 17.9 4.7 7.4 42.3 81.3
5. Goran Dragic, PHO 82.20 76 35.1 20.3 3.2 5.9 50.5 76.0
6. Monta Ellis, DAL 82.17 82 36.9 19.0 3.6 5.7 45.1 78.8
7. Kyrie Irving, CLE 79.33 71 35.2 20.8 3.6 6.1 43.0 86.1
8. Isaiah Thomas, SAC 77.10 72 34.7 20.3 2.9 6.3 45.3 85.0
9. Kemba Walker, CHA 76.92 73 35.8 17.7 4.2 6.1 39.3 83.7
10. Chris Paul, LAC 76.63 62 35.0 19.1 4.3 10.7 46.7 85.5
11. Jeff Teague, ATL 76.61 79 32.2 16.5 2.6 6.7 43.8 84.6
12. Brandon Jennings, DET 75.73 80 34.1 15.5 3.0 7.6 37.3 75.1
13. Mike Conley, MEM 75.63 73 33.5 17.2 2.9 6.0 45.0 81.5
14. M Carter-Williams, PHI 74.54 70 34.5 16.7 6.2 6.3 40.5 70.3
15. Ricky Rubio, MIN 74.05 82 32.2 9.5 4.2 8.6 38.1 80.2
16. Brandon Knight, MIL 73.05 72 33.3 17.9 3.5 4.9 42.2 80.2
17. Reggie Jackson, OKC 72.15 80 28.5 13.1 3.9 4.1 44.0 89.3
18. Jose Calderon, DAL 71.64 81 30.5 11.4 2.4 4.7 45.6 82.5
19. Randy Foye, DEN 71.06 81 30.7 13.2 2.9 3.5 41.3 84.9
20. Ty Lawson, DEN 70.42 62 35.8 17.6 3.5 8.8 43.1 79.8
21. George Hill, IND 69.64 76 32.0 10.3 3.7 3.5 44.2 80.7
22. Alec Burks, UTA 69.58 78 28.1 14.0 3.3 2.7 45.7 74.8
23. Tony Parker, SA 69.42 68 29.4 16.7 2.3 5.7 49.9 81.1
24. Tyreke Evans, NO 68.61 72 28.2 14.5 4.7 5.0 43.6 77.1
25. Darren Collison, LAC 68.17 80 25.9 11.4 2.4 3.7 46.7 85.7
26. Ramon Sessions, MIL 67.88 83 26.7 12.3 2.4 4.1 42.9 80.7
27. Trey Burke, UTA (Rookie) 67.28 70 32.3 12.8 3.0 5.7 38.0 90.3
28. Jameer Nelson, ORL 66.59 68 32.0 12.1 3.4 7.0 39.4 85.7
29. Jarrett Jack, CLE 66.01 80 28.2 9.5 2.8 4.0 41.0 83.9
30. Mario Chalmers, MIA 64.69 73 29.8 9.8 2.9 4.9 45.4 74.2
31. Deron Williams, BKN 64.52 64 32.2 14.3 2.6 6.1 45.0 80.1
32. Jeremy Lin, HOU 64.46 71 28.9 12.5 2.6 4.1 44.6 82.3
33. D.J. Augustin, CHI 64.05 71 27.3 13.1 1.8 4.4 41.5 88.5
34. Shaun Livingston, BKN 63.47 76 26.0 8.3 3.2 3.2 48.3 82.7
35. Rodney Stuckey, DET 62.81 73 26.7 13.9 2.3 2.1 43.6 83.6
36. Greivis Vasquez, TOR 62.59 79 22.5 9.6 2.2 4.1 42.1 88.0
37. Patty Mills, SA 62.53 81 18.9 10.2 2.1 1.8 46.4 89.0
38. Mo Williams, POR 62.30 74 24.8 9.7 2.1 4.3 41.7 87.6
39. Kirk Hinrich, CHI 61.09 73 29.0 9.1 2.6 3.9 39.3 76.0
40. Norris Cole, MIA 59.70 82 24.6 6.4 2.0 3.0 41.4 77.9
41. Avery Bradley, BOS 58.50 60 30.9 14.8 3.8 1.4 43.8 80.4
42. Brian Roberts, NO 58.27 72 23.2 9.4 1.9 3.2 42.0 94.0
43. Raymond Felton, NY 57.77 65 31.0 9.7 3.0 5.6 39.5 72.1I disagree about your assessment of Jose. Sure Jose won't be playing as a ball dominant PG, but he still will have an impact on the team as a leader who can direct players if they're in the wrong spots. He'll still have times when he's in the 2 man game in the Pinch Post to do what a good PG does. He'll be very important as a 3pt weapon as well. He'll still have a voice in the locker room and can help his teammates with advice and direction. There's no doubt that he'll be more effective than Felton would be in the same position.
From reading what you wrote about the Vets being able or willing to accept the Triangle is somewhat valid. Any team going to a new offense is going to have some adjustment issues. What makes it go easier is having players like Jose who are mature and easy to coach. Fish has already had some success with the kids quickly adjusting to the offense. It gives a lot more of a positive spin on the prospects of him getting the vets to learn the offense. He already has players who can demonstrate the basics quite well. The toughest part of the offense is the details of the footwork and spacing. The team must master those aspects and be diligent to execute in order for the offense to work at a high level. Let's not overstate this tho cuz it's not rocket science.
The culture Phil is building will make it easier to win, not harder. Getting his players to think about sharing the ball is a frame of mind as well as the technical ball and player moves in the system. Phil has proven he can get players to buy in. Fish has been a vocal leader on his teams for years and so far has been building a good rapport with his players in a short time they had. No one can guarantee the future. That's not what this is about. You can prepare for success tho. IMO that starts with putting good, qualified people in key places at the lead of your team. Phil, Fish and Jose are those kinds of people. Nothing in their past would warrant pessimism about the job they will do.
Actually I've said nothing different, I copied quite a few of my posts together with slight rewording and made a longer post, as I know you believe longer posts means better.....but since I have your attention.....
If we're basing Calderon vs the affects of Felton then sure he could be better. Last year wasnt good at all for Felton, alot of it being his off the court matters...imagine trying to do your job wherever you work at going through a divorce after you literally just got married, and your own wife sold you out to the police. Depending on where you work, you'd probably be out of work. But make no mistake felton was serviceable the year prior and team IMMEDIATELY missed him when he hurt his hand, they played like garbage in his absence as Kidd couldnt run the point and neither could Pablo effectively. But Felton has one major flaw and I'm 100 in belief Phil was not going....felton likes to play himself into shape. Felton especially had to go.
Now back to Calderon....he's a good player, not so much on defense, fans were glad to see him go because while his number are good the team didnt win, but he has never on the NBA level been touted as a a leader, and on top of his game automatically being minimized in the triangle.
Calderon fits the narrative of every vet on the team, the things they do best, they'll be doing less of. Calderon wont have the ball nearly as much as he's used to....can he adjust? Can he be a player who just moves and isnt part of the two man game? Can he read a defense possession by possession and not only know where to move but be ready for what the defense allows immediately? The jury is out on that. but those are just the basics that EVERY player on the team will have to adjust to. some guys arent even used to passing the ball, let alone moving without it.
Speaking on SL, I did see quite a few positives. The kids, some who knew they had no shot of making the team were playing hard within the triangle system, but I also saw something else and it happened during the next to the last game and the the last game.
I saw the team revert to what they individually know and they abandoned the triangle....didnt even run it in their final game which wound up beiong a loss. So yes, I can see things transpiring during the real show, and as I've said before, when things get rough will the VETS continue to do the system or will they do what they are ingrained to do? Hopefully the former, but I wouldnt be surprised to see tha latter.
Now on Phil....he's a master at getting more from his teams and certain things from individuals, but his teams weren't subpar, questionable, or just plain bad. the Lakers and Bulls were good BEFORE he got there and their cores were elite on both sides of the ball and their stars understanding of how to play the game was already top notch. Thats not the case here in NY, so thats challenge numero uno.
One thing though I do think Phil does that I personally appreciate is his ability to channel a player or two and get them to adjust a major aspect of their game and focus on the part he needs. he did that with Ron Atest who was roguhly a 20 point scorer and a superb defender. Phil needed his focus primarily on defense...alot to ask of a guy who could get 20 per contest. He did the same with Ron Harper, a legit 20ppg scorer and tasked him with defense primarily as well. Not only did his scoring drop drmatically...but almost his mutes. That was a huge buy in....but going to a place known for winning at the time makes the buy in easier, Ron harper knew what he was heading into.
Thats why I really do feel winning has to happen next season, not just the culture change, but on the court winning.
Believe it or not, there is a contingent that believes Phil's only successful because he's had the best the league had to offer.....I think we can both agree the games matter this time around.
Phil has tweaked the roster in order to make it more friendly to the Triangle. Some may doubt it but Jose over Felton is huge. It may take a little time to get the flow going at a high level or it might come quickly as it did for the kids in SL. It's a credit to Fish and Rambis that they were able to coach up the kids rather quickly in a system that is considered hard to teach to players who've never done it before.
We as fans may have a lot of pessimists among us, but the players are not depressed or doubting. The players are excited and eager to get this new campaign started. In their minds they have a winner as President and a winner at Head Coach. Even if neither have done those specific jobs before, the mental attitude of the players is that they have winners leading them now. You could see the confidence and pride of the players on the SL team. That is what is going on with the players right now. They aren't haunted by the losing of last season.
knickscity wrote:Calderon fits the narrative of every vet on the team, the things they do best, they'll be doing less of. Calderon wont have the ball nearly as much as he's used to....can he adjust? Can he be a player who just moves and isnt part of the two man game? Can he read a defense possession by possession and not only know where to move but be ready for what the defense allows immediately? The jury is out on that. but those are just the basics that EVERY player on the team will have to adjust to. some guys arent even used to passing the ball, let alone moving without it.
Calderon had to share the ball in a 2 guard front with Ellis. His assists dropped from 7.4 in Toronto the yr before to 4.7 in Dallas last year. He was still a strong shooter. I think there's very little reason to worry about Jose in the Triangle. He'll still get looks in the Pinch Post 2 man game, which you need a guard who can run that at a high level. Jose in a 2 man game with Melo, Bargs or STAT is going to be very effective.
knickscity wrote:Speaking on SL, I did see quite a few positives. The kids, some who knew they had no shot of making the team were playing hard within the triangle system, but I also saw something else and it happened during the next to the last game and the the last game.I saw the team revert to what they individually know and they abandoned the triangle....didnt even run it in their final game which wound up beiong a loss. So yes, I can see things transpiring during the real show, and as I've said before, when things get rough will the VETS continue to do the system or will they do what they are ingrained to do? Hopefully the former, but I wouldnt be surprised to see tha latter.
This is an exaggeration IMO. The SL team lost one game!!! I think they can be forgiven for having lapses in running the Triangle effectively.
knickscity wrote:Now on Phil....he's a master at getting more from his teams and certain things from individuals, but his teams weren't subpar, questionable, or just plain bad. the Lakers and Bulls were good BEFORE he got there and their cores were elite on both sides of the ball and their stars understanding of how to play the game was already top notch. Thats not the case here in NY, so thats challenge numero uno.
I think it's less important whether the team had any success before Phil came on board. He's gonna totally change what the team is doing regardless. He changed the offense and defense of his teams from what the teams were running before he got there. While the Knicks aren't a ready made title team, they do have enough talent to win and make the playoffs. It's not like he's starting from scratch with no talent.
knickscity wrote:One thing though I do think Phil does that I personally appreciate is his ability to channel a player or two and get them to adjust a major aspect of their game and focus on the part he needs. he did that with Ron Atest who was roguhly a 20 point scorer and a superb defender. Phil needed his focus primarily on defense...alot to ask of a guy who could get 20 per contest. He did the same with Ron Harper, a legit 20ppg scorer and tasked him with defense primarily as well. Not only did his scoring drop drmatically...but almost his mutes. That was a huge buy in....but going to a place known for winning at the time makes the buy in easier, Ron harper knew what he was heading into.Thats why I really do feel winning has to happen next season, not just the culture change, but on the court winning.
Believe it or not, there is a contingent that believes Phil's only successful because he's had the best the league had to offer.....I think we can both agree the games matter this time around.
I don't think Phil, Fish nor any of the players aren't expecting to win. They may not be a title team right away, but they do expect to win games this year. There is enough talent on this roster to be competitive. This team won't go into games most nights with no chance to win. What Phil is looking to do is change the culture from selfish and dumb BB to selfless and smart BB. Having the right spacing, effort level, ball and player movement should lead to wins. Phil sets the table in order to maximize the talent he does have. That's what Phil brings to the table.
knickscity wrote:nixluva wrote:knickscity wrote:nixluva wrote:knickscity wrote:nixluva wrote:I started this thread because I know it's all too easy to just generalize or pick on a player or 2 that people don't like and try to make them the reason for the losing. I think if you look at any successful team the success starts at the top. Just cuz a team has talent doesn't guarantee wins.Ironically, that's what you did in your opening post.
Nice try, but no I didn't just generalize ie "the Knicks suck", "every player deserves the blame" nor did I pick on Felton cuz I didn't like him ie "Melo sucks". I was SPECIFIC and gave a very clear and detailed explanation of how Dolan and Woody, 2 NON PLAYERS in charge of making decisions, preparing and leading this team, failed. Also how the on the floor leader of the offense, Felton, didn't get it done. That in turn had a direct impact on how the entire team played, which as we all know was below their capabilities. Those 3 represent the rudder of the ship. The team can't succeed if those 3 don't do a good job. You can survive another player underperforming or having a slump. However, if you are being directed off a cliff by your Owner, Head Coach and starting PG the entire rest of the team goes down with them. They have no choice.
Now we have replaced those 3 with Phil, Fish and Jose. They have at least the history of being leaders, good decision makers and a good on the floor leader who is good in the locker room as well. That is not just generalizing and displaying blind faith as some have put it. So far the evidence shows there is a change in the way things are being handled. The depth of thought going into planning and decision making is much clearer. That's why I posted the thoughts of Phil to give a bit more insight into how he's thinking and what goes into his decision making for this franchise. I think you couldn't be more wrong in your take on my posts. Then again a one sentence retort to my posts had very little chance of being accurate anyway. How about laying out a well thought out reason for what you think about last years Knicks and this new Knicks regime.
Look my man, you made the thread blaming Felton and Woodson and you certainly put them as ultimate blame for the season, you've debated that several times in this thread, so no need to pretend you havent...the posts are there for anyone's viewing.But you're absoulutely displaying blind faith because neither of the entities have done their respective roles before, yet you truly believe they WILL be successful with no doubt of failure.
Phil has NEVER ran a team from the office and quite honestly never had to build a team from the ground.....he can do well, he can also fail depending on results.
Fisher despite being groomed by Phil will have to make decisions as a coach and has NEVER been in the role....he as well can fail, and he can also do well...depending on results.
Calderon has NEVER been viewed in the light you're putting him in, certainly not on an NBA level. I cant recall any raptors fans being upset calderon was traded....just like Bargnani, they were happy to see them go.....primarily because their lack of defense eclipses what they bring on offense. Their teams just couldnt cover that aspect up no matter what.
Also in the triangle, Calderon is minimized....his strength is ball control even morseo than shooting which is top notch as well, and he wont have ball control, and honestly I dont know what he's able to do without the ball in his hands exclusively.
I said this before, but Fisher may need to really analyze if the triangle is best for THIS group as it may not be, and when he was introduced he stated plainly his offense WILL be determined by the personnel so he may have to go against Phil's desire "on the court". This team under any circumstances cannot be a loser next season.....not when you want to attract free agents, not when you have a maxed out melo that just missed the playoffs and is banking on you to help him win, and certainly does not want to spend consecutive years as LOSER. I wouldnt even know what kind of culture can be harvested with losing in the middle of it.
These Knicks are vets, their patience in something wont last long if it isnt working, and that will sprinkle onto the kids who arent quite good enough to hold the fort down if the vets arent producing.
This could work well, sure it very well could.....it can also implode. next year being successful is crucial.
Call me what you want though, but three entities in new roles and a team full of players who are used to doing things their way is a recipe for an implosion, but I have no doubt they will try everything they are taught, I just have my doubts if it will work.
There you go! Was that so hard? A more thorough and reasoned argument is all I ask.Now as i've said and you STILL don't understand, it's about the fact that Dolan, Woody and Felton occupied a very important set of roles for this team. Those roles IMO gave them a higher degree of culpability in the teams success or failure. I laid that out over the course of this thread. NOTHING you wrote refutes my contention that you can't really succeed if your Top decision maker ie Dolan is making horrid decisions. You can't succeed if your Head Coach is compromised by the Owner, GM or President. In our case Dolan put himself in the mix as the de facto President of BB. Woody was a complete MESS last year. That effected the entire team by default since the Head Coach is responsible for the entire team. Felton as the starting PG carried a heavy responsibility as well. He's at the head of the offense and defense. You can't have that player perform at the level of the #40 PG n the league and expect success.
POINT GUARDS 2014
PLAYER RATING GP MPG PPG RPG APG FG % FT %
1. Stephen Curry, GS 91.01 78 36.5 24.0 4.3 8.5 47.1 88.5
2. John Wall, WAS 85.75 82 36.3 19.3 4.1 8.8 43.3 80.5
3. Damian Lillard, POR 83.88 82 35.8 20.7 3.5 5.6 42.4 87.1
4. Kyle Lowry, TOR 82.66 79 36.2 17.9 4.7 7.4 42.3 81.3
5. Goran Dragic, PHO 82.20 76 35.1 20.3 3.2 5.9 50.5 76.0
6. Monta Ellis, DAL 82.17 82 36.9 19.0 3.6 5.7 45.1 78.8
7. Kyrie Irving, CLE 79.33 71 35.2 20.8 3.6 6.1 43.0 86.1
8. Isaiah Thomas, SAC 77.10 72 34.7 20.3 2.9 6.3 45.3 85.0
9. Kemba Walker, CHA 76.92 73 35.8 17.7 4.2 6.1 39.3 83.7
10. Chris Paul, LAC 76.63 62 35.0 19.1 4.3 10.7 46.7 85.5
11. Jeff Teague, ATL 76.61 79 32.2 16.5 2.6 6.7 43.8 84.6
12. Brandon Jennings, DET 75.73 80 34.1 15.5 3.0 7.6 37.3 75.1
13. Mike Conley, MEM 75.63 73 33.5 17.2 2.9 6.0 45.0 81.5
14. M Carter-Williams, PHI 74.54 70 34.5 16.7 6.2 6.3 40.5 70.3
15. Ricky Rubio, MIN 74.05 82 32.2 9.5 4.2 8.6 38.1 80.2
16. Brandon Knight, MIL 73.05 72 33.3 17.9 3.5 4.9 42.2 80.2
17. Reggie Jackson, OKC 72.15 80 28.5 13.1 3.9 4.1 44.0 89.3
18. Jose Calderon, DAL 71.64 81 30.5 11.4 2.4 4.7 45.6 82.5
19. Randy Foye, DEN 71.06 81 30.7 13.2 2.9 3.5 41.3 84.9
20. Ty Lawson, DEN 70.42 62 35.8 17.6 3.5 8.8 43.1 79.8
21. George Hill, IND 69.64 76 32.0 10.3 3.7 3.5 44.2 80.7
22. Alec Burks, UTA 69.58 78 28.1 14.0 3.3 2.7 45.7 74.8
23. Tony Parker, SA 69.42 68 29.4 16.7 2.3 5.7 49.9 81.1
24. Tyreke Evans, NO 68.61 72 28.2 14.5 4.7 5.0 43.6 77.1
25. Darren Collison, LAC 68.17 80 25.9 11.4 2.4 3.7 46.7 85.7
26. Ramon Sessions, MIL 67.88 83 26.7 12.3 2.4 4.1 42.9 80.7
27. Trey Burke, UTA (Rookie) 67.28 70 32.3 12.8 3.0 5.7 38.0 90.3
28. Jameer Nelson, ORL 66.59 68 32.0 12.1 3.4 7.0 39.4 85.7
29. Jarrett Jack, CLE 66.01 80 28.2 9.5 2.8 4.0 41.0 83.9
30. Mario Chalmers, MIA 64.69 73 29.8 9.8 2.9 4.9 45.4 74.2
31. Deron Williams, BKN 64.52 64 32.2 14.3 2.6 6.1 45.0 80.1
32. Jeremy Lin, HOU 64.46 71 28.9 12.5 2.6 4.1 44.6 82.3
33. D.J. Augustin, CHI 64.05 71 27.3 13.1 1.8 4.4 41.5 88.5
34. Shaun Livingston, BKN 63.47 76 26.0 8.3 3.2 3.2 48.3 82.7
35. Rodney Stuckey, DET 62.81 73 26.7 13.9 2.3 2.1 43.6 83.6
36. Greivis Vasquez, TOR 62.59 79 22.5 9.6 2.2 4.1 42.1 88.0
37. Patty Mills, SA 62.53 81 18.9 10.2 2.1 1.8 46.4 89.0
38. Mo Williams, POR 62.30 74 24.8 9.7 2.1 4.3 41.7 87.6
39. Kirk Hinrich, CHI 61.09 73 29.0 9.1 2.6 3.9 39.3 76.0
40. Norris Cole, MIA 59.70 82 24.6 6.4 2.0 3.0 41.4 77.9
41. Avery Bradley, BOS 58.50 60 30.9 14.8 3.8 1.4 43.8 80.4
42. Brian Roberts, NO 58.27 72 23.2 9.4 1.9 3.2 42.0 94.0
43. Raymond Felton, NY 57.77 65 31.0 9.7 3.0 5.6 39.5 72.1I disagree about your assessment of Jose. Sure Jose won't be playing as a ball dominant PG, but he still will have an impact on the team as a leader who can direct players if they're in the wrong spots. He'll still have times when he's in the 2 man game in the Pinch Post to do what a good PG does. He'll be very important as a 3pt weapon as well. He'll still have a voice in the locker room and can help his teammates with advice and direction. There's no doubt that he'll be more effective than Felton would be in the same position.
From reading what you wrote about the Vets being able or willing to accept the Triangle is somewhat valid. Any team going to a new offense is going to have some adjustment issues. What makes it go easier is having players like Jose who are mature and easy to coach. Fish has already had some success with the kids quickly adjusting to the offense. It gives a lot more of a positive spin on the prospects of him getting the vets to learn the offense. He already has players who can demonstrate the basics quite well. The toughest part of the offense is the details of the footwork and spacing. The team must master those aspects and be diligent to execute in order for the offense to work at a high level. Let's not overstate this tho cuz it's not rocket science.
The culture Phil is building will make it easier to win, not harder. Getting his players to think about sharing the ball is a frame of mind as well as the technical ball and player moves in the system. Phil has proven he can get players to buy in. Fish has been a vocal leader on his teams for years and so far has been building a good rapport with his players in a short time they had. No one can guarantee the future. That's not what this is about. You can prepare for success tho. IMO that starts with putting good, qualified people in key places at the lead of your team. Phil, Fish and Jose are those kinds of people. Nothing in their past would warrant pessimism about the job they will do.
Actually I've said nothing different, I copied quite a few of my posts together with slight rewording and made a longer post, as I know you believe longer posts means better.....but since I have your attention.....
If we're basing Calderon vs the affects of Felton then sure he could be better. Last year wasnt good at all for Felton, alot of it being his off the court matters...imagine trying to do your job wherever you work at going through a divorce after you literally just got married, and your own wife sold you out to the police. Depending on where you work, you'd probably be out of work. But make no mistake felton was serviceable the year prior and team IMMEDIATELY missed him when he hurt his hand, they played like garbage in his absence as Kidd couldnt run the point and neither could Pablo effectively. But Felton has one major flaw and I'm 100 in belief Phil was not going....felton likes to play himself into shape. Felton especially had to go.
Now back to Calderon....he's a good player, not so much on defense, fans were glad to see him go because while his number are good the team didnt win, but he has never on the NBA level been touted as a a leader, and on top of his game automatically being minimized in the triangle.
Calderon fits the narrative of every vet on the team, the things they do best, they'll be doing less of. Calderon wont have the ball nearly as much as he's used to....can he adjust? Can he be a player who just moves and isnt part of the two man game? Can he read a defense possession by possession and not only know where to move but be ready for what the defense allows immediately? The jury is out on that. but those are just the basics that EVERY player on the team will have to adjust to. some guys arent even used to passing the ball, let alone moving without it.
Speaking on SL, I did see quite a few positives. The kids, some who knew they had no shot of making the team were playing hard within the triangle system, but I also saw something else and it happened during the next to the last game and the the last game.
I saw the team revert to what they individually know and they abandoned the triangle....didnt even run it in their final game which wound up beiong a loss. So yes, I can see things transpiring during the real show, and as I've said before, when things get rough will the VETS continue to do the system or will they do what they are ingrained to do? Hopefully the former, but I wouldnt be surprised to see tha latter.
Now on Phil....he's a master at getting more from his teams and certain things from individuals, but his teams weren't subpar, questionable, or just plain bad. the Lakers and Bulls were good BEFORE he got there and their cores were elite on both sides of the ball and their stars understanding of how to play the game was already top notch. Thats not the case here in NY, so thats challenge numero uno.
One thing though I do think Phil does that I personally appreciate is his ability to channel a player or two and get them to adjust a major aspect of their game and focus on the part he needs. he did that with Ron Atest who was roguhly a 20 point scorer and a superb defender. Phil needed his focus primarily on defense...alot to ask of a guy who could get 20 per contest. He did the same with Ron Harper, a legit 20ppg scorer and tasked him with defense primarily as well. Not only did his scoring drop drmatically...but almost his mutes. That was a huge buy in....but going to a place known for winning at the time makes the buy in easier, Ron harper knew what he was heading into.
Thats why I really do feel winning has to happen next season, not just the culture change, but on the court winning.
Believe it or not, there is a contingent that believes Phil's only successful because he's had the best the league had to offer.....I think we can both agree the games matter this time around.
Calderon playing off the ball, high IQ, and sharp shooting is more of his attributes then being a ball dominant pass first PG. Monte Ellis controlled the ball way more then Calderon in Dallas. Calderon held a 16% usage rate in 30mins of play compared to Monte's 26%. The triangle fits nicely with his game offensively. Reguardless of any of that Calderon is said to be a strong team guy and locker room guy.
The Lakers post Shaq weren't an already built team. They were a lottery team. Phil chose to add Calderon, Jason Smith, and resign Carmelo. So unless Phil's evaluation skills have completely betrayed him, these players must fit what he is trying to do.
Lamar Odom except for one strong year in Mia was a major underachiever for his career. Paul Gasol's stock was plummeting hard in Memphis. Andrew Bynum's career has disappeared since Phil left and was often injured with the Lakers as well. I think they won a championship without him. Kobe Bryant was shooting 30 times a game demanding to be traded the years prior. Artest with his talent was a nutcase who was on his I think his 5th team.
Phil's best attributes as a coach are what make his potential as a President so high.
nixluva wrote:Melo is a positive and not a negative.
To be determined....
nixluva wrote:Phil knew this.
Phil wanted him to opt in....he wanted that year to see what melo can do...now he's stuck no matter what.
nixluva wrote: It is important that Melo be convinced to be more willing to trust his teammates, but Phil isn't going to ask Melo to do that and not give the proper instruction and coaching to the rest of the team so that Melo can relax and trust them.
His teammates need to make their shots when given the ball, and not bobble passes either. As much as I will critique melo, his willingness to give up the ball isnt one of them. He averaged quite a bit of assists in a system he wanted no part of with D'antoni and certainly has given up the rock under Woodson even when his cast couldnt even hit the rim. Guys got to make shots. now while Phil has added a few guys who should be able to do so, they still have to do it. Trust comes from seeing things as you expect them to happen.
nixluva wrote: Phil knows that the Triangle will make the players around Melo better by making things easier for them and more structured. The role players will know what to do when Melo has the ball, rather than standing around and watching him. Melo's teammates will be thinking the game more and making smarter decisions with the ball.
Role players knew the same thing under woodson as well, the ball and player movement situation isnt new or refined....
Ronnie Brewer had this to say when he was signed during the 54 win season...."one key to playing with Anthony is to avoid standing around and watching like you're at the theater."
There was also a reason why Woodson implored two point guards on the floor...thats what it took to keep the ball from sticking. The Knicks rarely had problems on offense under Woody, late game decisions on the court combined with defensive lapses has been their issue. Those issues might be still there, but of course the games themselves will decide that, not necessarily what we think on a message board.
nixluva wrote:Phil has tweaked the roster in order to make it more friendly to the Triangle. Some may doubt it but Jose over Felton is huge. It may take a little time to get the flow going at a high level or it might come quickly as it did for the kids in SL. It's a credit to Fish and Rambis that they were able to coach up the kids rather quickly in a system that is considered hard to teach to players who've never done it before.
The triangle isnt hard for players new to the game, so it's not really a surprise to see the youngins do well in it, they dont really have ingrained mindsets to change. Kinda like teaching a baby how to speak a certain language...much easier than when that child has grown up and turned 40 for instance....but not impossible.
nixluva wrote:We as fans may have a lot of pessimists among us, but the players are not depressed or doubting. The players are excited and eager to get this new campaign started. In their minds they have a winner as President and a winner at Head Coach. Even if neither have done those specific jobs before, the mental attitude of the players is that they have winners leading them now. You could see the confidence and pride of the players on the SL team. That is what is going on with the players right now. They aren't haunted by the losing of last season.
I hope you dont view ones who look at both spectrums as non fans, if you do thats sad.
But anyway, players are always excited to play in a new regime, as evident that coaching changes usually bring wins....it's almost a guaranteed expectation.
The key isnt buying in, I'm sure they will....but what will they do if it isnt working? is that NOT a possibility? Do they stay the course or do they revert? The SL team for example...reverted...it became the Tim hardaway show to comeback and win their next to last game, and the final game involved no triangle at all.
Is it a lock for automatic success? Nope.
I think all "fans" hope the team does well.
nixluva wrote:F500ONE wrote:
Should have had more pics of others in your OP, your shortcoming not ours.Reading is fundamental. I not only made my points in the text of my OP but in many other posts thereafter. It helps to do more than look at the pictures.
F500ONE wrote:We have many main culprits and root causesLeadership should come from some of your highest paid players.
You've managed to absolve them as root causes
As knickcity stated//// Dolan, Felton, and Woody forgot how to do all those things after winning 54gms?
The season of stock transposing to this season correct
You're placing blame at the feet of whom you choose
It does help if you get leadership from your highest paid players, but from a technical standpoint usually the PG is the coach on the floor and is the one that gets everyone in their spots and delivers the ball so that his teammates can score easier.
It's not about Dolan, Woody and Felton forgetting after winning 54 games. In fact part of the problem of why the team didn't do better was because of Woody not knowing what to do with the team come playoff time and Felton not playing well consistently in the playoffs. He didn't come thru. So basically you're proving my point, not refuting it. My point is that the talent is here to win and yet the team has underperformed. Even in the 54 win season the team underperformed. It had a great start and then fell into mediocre play and a poor showing in the playoffs. They should've swept the Celtics and had a better performance against the Pacer. Doc and Vogel laughed at Woody's simplistic game plan. Woody had no answers and everything he tried failed.
F500ONE wrote:Your analogy needs some TLC.Maybe we can get to the root cause, source, cuplrit of it's problem
The sick person very well may have contacted the virus by/////what they ate, who they were around, where they lived, open wounds, allergic reactions etc etc
Quarantining, Isolating, Removal of threats are equally important to the health recovery process
If those things haven't been addressed it doesn't matter what's prescribed or procedures performed for virus treatment
It will resurface again.
Conversely if all those things were addressed and the virus hasn't been, sick patient remains
Now you're just flailing wildly in the dark. Your analogy remix still makes my point even more so. Dolan has stepped out of the way, Woody and Felton are gone. They are the virus. The Root cause. Phil, Fish and Jose are now charged with directing this team. It's not about how much a player gets paid. It's about the role they are tasked with fulfilling. Jose is here to be a leader on the floor and in the locker room. He will be Fisher's coach on the floor. He is better at doing all those things than Felton.The team could survive a poor performance at different positions, but the three key positions held by Dolan, Woody and Felton. Those positions are the RUDDER OF The SHIP!!! They set the direction and course. They can steer into calm waters of wreck the team on the rocks. This team needed someone at the top who could make sound BB decisions instead of Dolan and Phil is that man. This team needed a coach who understands winning and learned the principles of winning from him and other top coaches. Fisher is that man. This team needed a reliable Floor General and a PG that could fit the Triangle with his strong shooting and savvy. Jose is that man. They are the cure to the virus that made the entire Knicks body sick. Sure players didn't perform well, but part of the reason that the team as a whole underperformed was due to the poor leadership at those key spots. Phil, Fish and Jose >>>>>>>>> Dolan, Woody and Felton. Think about it.
Actually Felton played very well in the Boston series as did Shump and Prgigoni.
He played fairly decent in the Pacers series with exception to two games
So you're lying here
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/...
Meanwhile Carmelo was extremely inconsistent throughout both series.
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/...
Explain how Felton outplayed him across 2 series
The fact you keep focusing on Felton only proves what you true agenda was
While the point guard is the extension of the coach, it doesn't mean he's a designated true leader.
The point guard executes a game plan or does as he's told
Much of what was met by stubbornness from other players on the team to execute game plans
What we needed just as much, was off the court direction or direction when games weren't played.
I recall Carmelo giving credit to the vets before any game was played 2 seasons ago
He pointed to their experience and leadership in camp and practice.
Their affect on the team by their presence, and off the court approach
Leadership comes in so many different forms, not where you're trying to pigeon hole it to
Let's keep it 100% authentic, Dolan is the Virus//////
Everyone else was either an agent virus carrier or threat to spread it
We've yet to remove all agents and threats
You may be a great loyalist but you're gonna lose credibility if you continue posting flat out lies.