Knicks · I can see no way that the Knicks are much better than last season because point guard change. Convince me or agree (page 3)

dk7th wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

newyorknewyork wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:You mean when they were over .500 in the west with Lowry

Yeah, and I doubt Lin thinks of himself as worse than Lowry, especially coming right off of Linsanity. So he probably felt the team would be +.500, young, and have lots of cap space.

Regardless if they were crappy or a contender. Lin signed there because of the money. He also wasn't coming right off Linsanity but coming off of missing out on the playoffs vs the heat(vs his daddy Chalmers & Cole) in order to preserve his market value.

Well, yeah, just like Melo signed here for the money. If the Bulls were offering him $124 mil and we were offering him $74 mil, he'd be a Bull right now. That's just how it works.

Yes, that's how it works. However the premise of Triple Threat's post (that you chose not to refute) in this thread is that Lin was altruistic and just played for love of the game while Melo only plays for money. These guys are professionals, they ALL play for the money.

not all professionals play just for the money. some actually try to win as well, and take care of their business to get the best of both money and winning.

Of course. All professionals play for money....as well as for other things such as winning. It is difficult to determine how much a professional player is actually playing for "other things".....so one can only make assumptions (and we all know what happens when we ass u me). Since I do not personally know these players nor am I a mind reader, I do not pretend to know what they are thinking/playing for. There are people of wealth who are great philanthropists, and there are people who do not make much money who are greedy bastards.

F500ONE wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

So for anyone who think Phil Jackson and/or Derek Fisher are these super smart magicians and basketball gods and gurus, here's something to chew on. The Knicks could have won with D'Antoni. They didn't need to shell out 60 million for Captain Eleven Rings. Though Jackson is nice to have. They were WINNING with Pringles. Linsanity wasn't just about Lin, it was about team ball, synergy, everyone "buying in" ( well everyone on the court), discipline and tough heady defense.

The Linsanity thing was nice but there is a huge difference between winning 7 games against teams who had a combined record of 73-115 and bringing in a guy that has won 11 championships as a coach. Only two of those seven teams had records over .500. The other three had a combined record of 45-93. Dantoni coached the team for 288 games.

I love MDA and his system, but it's a very specific system that is predicated on a very specific type of roster. You must have a good PG who can run PnR at a high level and see the court, plus also be able to score the ball effectively. He needs shooters of course and a Stretch PF who can play away from the basket to open up the floor. MDA needs owner and GM cooperation in order to make his system work. If you aren't going to fully support him in building a team that can excel in his system then you shouldn't hire him. The Olympians LOVE playing MDA system and they show the system being played at it's absolute best.

The key issue is that MDA is not a coach who molds men in the way Phil tries to do. He doesn't want to get into a players head and try to change the way he plays. MDA would much rather have a very mature and team oriented player who wants to play team ball. He doesn't like wrangling disobedient or resistant players. Phil is also a system coach, but he is much more equipped to handle dealing with a players frame of mind. Phil tries many ways to get his players to open up their minds to new things and to see things differently.

Phil has brought in some of his guys who where with him when he won Titles. They know exactly how he wants things done and the little things that lead to a winning franchise. This doesn't ignore the fact that Phil had some really talented teams, but IMO he was able to prove that his way of doing things was successful with different rosters over the years. I think Phil has more than proven he knows how to get a team playing well. He has Fish and his staff ready to bring his way of doing things to a new generation. Fish will possibly bring some fresh ideas and i'm sure some tweaks that will help with how things are done nowadays.

Great post.

This is a great post, but when i looked back on some of the championship rosters of phil, he never had more than 2 superstars, and a bunch of role players, there were not blessed with a bunch of talent, just role players who did there jobs well, played unselfish, and fit well in the system.

Nix is right when he states how phil can get the most rebellious player to buy in, and MDA won't waste his time trying for one second, his way or the highway.

Odom
Artest
Trevor Ariza
Horry
Rick Fox
Derrick Fisher
Brian Shaw
Toni Kucok
Dennis Rodman
Horace Grant
Craig Hodges
John Paxon
B.J. Armstrong

If players are better than the above they're close to All-Stars-Superstars.

Get real he's had above average role players on his chip squads

No need to revise history

go look at the stats before you go posting names, those guys (other than grant and kucok) avg less then 10 pts during any championship run, sacrifice there scoring big time..

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:You mean when they were over .500 in the west with Lowry

Yeah, and I doubt Lin thinks of himself as worse than Lowry, especially coming right off of Linsanity. So he probably felt the team would be +.500, young, and have lots of cap space.

They also lost Dragic who also contributed to those wins

knicks1248 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

So for anyone who think Phil Jackson and/or Derek Fisher are these super smart magicians and basketball gods and gurus, here's something to chew on. The Knicks could have won with D'Antoni. They didn't need to shell out 60 million for Captain Eleven Rings. Though Jackson is nice to have. They were WINNING with Pringles. Linsanity wasn't just about Lin, it was about team ball, synergy, everyone "buying in" ( well everyone on the court), discipline and tough heady defense.

The Linsanity thing was nice but there is a huge difference between winning 7 games against teams who had a combined record of 73-115 and bringing in a guy that has won 11 championships as a coach. Only two of those seven teams had records over .500. The other three had a combined record of 45-93. Dantoni coached the team for 288 games.

I love MDA and his system, but it's a very specific system that is predicated on a very specific type of roster. You must have a good PG who can run PnR at a high level and see the court, plus also be able to score the ball effectively. He needs shooters of course and a Stretch PF who can play away from the basket to open up the floor. MDA needs owner and GM cooperation in order to make his system work. If you aren't going to fully support him in building a team that can excel in his system then you shouldn't hire him. The Olympians LOVE playing MDA system and they show the system being played at it's absolute best.

The key issue is that MDA is not a coach who molds men in the way Phil tries to do. He doesn't want to get into a players head and try to change the way he plays. MDA would much rather have a very mature and team oriented player who wants to play team ball. He doesn't like wrangling disobedient or resistant players. Phil is also a system coach, but he is much more equipped to handle dealing with a players frame of mind. Phil tries many ways to get his players to open up their minds to new things and to see things differently.

Phil has brought in some of his guys who where with him when he won Titles. They know exactly how he wants things done and the little things that lead to a winning franchise. This doesn't ignore the fact that Phil had some really talented teams, but IMO he was able to prove that his way of doing things was successful with different rosters over the years. I think Phil has more than proven he knows how to get a team playing well. He has Fish and his staff ready to bring his way of doing things to a new generation. Fish will possibly bring some fresh ideas and i'm sure some tweaks that will help with how things are done nowadays.

Great post.

This is a great post, but when i looked back on some of the championship rosters of phil, he never had more than 2 superstars, and a bunch of role players, there were not blessed with a bunch of talent, just role players who did there jobs well, played unselfish, and fit well in the system.

Nix is right when he states how phil can get the most rebellious player to buy in, and MDA won't waste his time trying for one second, his way or the highway.

Odom
Artest
Trevor Ariza
Horry
Rick Fox
Derrick Fisher
Brian Shaw
Toni Kucok
Dennis Rodman
Horace Grant
Craig Hodges
John Paxon
B.J. Armstrong

If players are better than the above they're close to All-Stars-Superstars.

Get real he's had above average role players on his chip squads

No need to revise history

go look at the stats before you go posting names, those guys (other than grant and kucok) avg less then 10 pts during any championship run, sacrifice there scoring big time..

You mean sacrificed like Wade and Bosh

Therefore those guys weren't All-Star caliber players

Their stats had nothing to do with the caliber of talent

Those guys were better than your average role player

F500ONE wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

nixluva wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

So for anyone who think Phil Jackson and/or Derek Fisher are these super smart magicians and basketball gods and gurus, here's something to chew on. The Knicks could have won with D'Antoni. They didn't need to shell out 60 million for Captain Eleven Rings. Though Jackson is nice to have. They were WINNING with Pringles. Linsanity wasn't just about Lin, it was about team ball, synergy, everyone "buying in" ( well everyone on the court), discipline and tough heady defense.

The Linsanity thing was nice but there is a huge difference between winning 7 games against teams who had a combined record of 73-115 and bringing in a guy that has won 11 championships as a coach. Only two of those seven teams had records over .500. The other three had a combined record of 45-93. Dantoni coached the team for 288 games.

I love MDA and his system, but it's a very specific system that is predicated on a very specific type of roster. You must have a good PG who can run PnR at a high level and see the court, plus also be able to score the ball effectively. He needs shooters of course and a Stretch PF who can play away from the basket to open up the floor. MDA needs owner and GM cooperation in order to make his system work. If you aren't going to fully support him in building a team that can excel in his system then you shouldn't hire him. The Olympians LOVE playing MDA system and they show the system being played at it's absolute best.

The key issue is that MDA is not a coach who molds men in the way Phil tries to do. He doesn't want to get into a players head and try to change the way he plays. MDA would much rather have a very mature and team oriented player who wants to play team ball. He doesn't like wrangling disobedient or resistant players. Phil is also a system coach, but he is much more equipped to handle dealing with a players frame of mind. Phil tries many ways to get his players to open up their minds to new things and to see things differently.

Phil has brought in some of his guys who where with him when he won Titles. They know exactly how he wants things done and the little things that lead to a winning franchise. This doesn't ignore the fact that Phil had some really talented teams, but IMO he was able to prove that his way of doing things was successful with different rosters over the years. I think Phil has more than proven he knows how to get a team playing well. He has Fish and his staff ready to bring his way of doing things to a new generation. Fish will possibly bring some fresh ideas and i'm sure some tweaks that will help with how things are done nowadays.

Great post.

This is a great post, but when i looked back on some of the championship rosters of phil, he never had more than 2 superstars, and a bunch of role players, there were not blessed with a bunch of talent, just role players who did there jobs well, played unselfish, and fit well in the system.

Nix is right when he states how phil can get the most rebellious player to buy in, and MDA won't waste his time trying for one second, his way or the highway.

Odom
Artest
Trevor Ariza
Horry
Rick Fox
Derrick Fisher
Brian Shaw
Toni Kucok
Dennis Rodman
Horace Grant
Craig Hodges
John Paxon
B.J. Armstrong

If players are better than the above they're close to All-Stars-Superstars.

Get real he's had above average role players on his chip squads

No need to revise history

go look at the stats before you go posting names, those guys (other than grant and kucok) avg less then 10 pts during any championship run, sacrifice there scoring big time..

You mean sacrificed like Wade and Bosh

Therefore those guys weren't All-Star caliber players

Their stats had nothing to do with the caliber of talent

Those guys were better than your average role player

Are you indicating those guys are better than our current role players

GustavBahler wrote:Can't say we will be much better with Calderone alone, but Im confident we will be better. He's a smarter PG than Felton from what I've seen, so he should help raise the collective IQ of this team. Its not going to happen overnight. Be happy if we are good enough to go beyond the first round. This will take time Papbear.

Also we didn't lose anything on defense Jose is not great but Felton couldn't guard anything on d...Jose is prob better there as well... Aside from Jose and getting rid of terrible players in Felton and chandler( most over rated center in the nba) a healthy shump, jr,amare make a big difference ... I also expect big things from cole Aldrich ... I think he's going to get the time to break out and give us 10/12/2 a night.. There was a reason he was drafted so high..he dose all the dirty work and is fundamentally sound. A starting line up of cole,amare,melo,jr,Jose is way better then a chandler(awful),melo(out of position),shump(needs to be a defensive boost off the bench),Pablo (not a 2 guard and not worthy of any pt above 10 min, Felton(not a starting pg in the nba maybe not even a back up). I'd say we upgraded big time just on a healthy amare,jr,shump all three had knee surgery last year before the season. Plus cole gets his chance to break out now that chandler is gone thank god

fitzfarm wrote:

GustavBahler wrote:Can't say we will be much better with Calderone alone, but Im confident we will be better. He's a smarter PG than Felton from what I've seen, so he should help raise the collective IQ of this team. Its not going to happen overnight. Be happy if we are good enough to go beyond the first round. This will take time Papbear.

Also we didn't lose anything on defense Jose is not great but Felton couldn't guard anything on d...Jose is prob better there as well...

I know we hope he will be this year in comparison

As of last year he's not

http://www.basketball-reference.com/lead...

Last season, Calderon’s "defensive real plus-minus" was a minus-3.56, which was 72nd among point guards. Defensive real plus-minus measures a player's defensive contributions based on points allowed per 100 defensive possessions.

For comparison’s sake, Felton, who was widely criticized for his defensive issues last season, ranked 39th among point guards with a minus-1.24.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:You mean when they were over .500 in the west with Lowry

Yeah, and I doubt Lin thinks of himself as worse than Lowry, especially coming right off of Linsanity. So he probably felt the team would be +.500, young, and have lots of cap space.

They also lost Dragic who also contributed to those wins

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Bonn1997 wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

gunsnewing wrote:You mean when they were over .500 in the west with Lowry

Yeah, and I doubt Lin thinks of himself as worse than Lowry, especially coming right off of Linsanity. So he probably felt the team would be +.500, young, and have lots of cap space.

They also lost Dragic who also contributed to those wins

but had cap space to get someone better than Dragic

You're right it left them room to get Harden which made Lin expendable at the cost of a draft pick. Anyway he still wasn't going back to the team over .500 in the west. It was a worse team before the trade. I don't fault Lin for leaving. Go get that money.

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

yellowboy90 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

I try to make of habit of not doing this

I want my arguments to be consistent

Even if they happen to not be popular at times

I will agree stats don't always tell the full story

In this case Calderon is a wretched defender

No matter who he's playing with

It's not worthy of a refute

yellowboy90 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

almost is the operative word. intellectually dishonest people, people who want to win an argument, will seek facts to fit their narrative.

better to find a narrative that supports the facts. it works for me.

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

almost is the operative word. intellectually dishonest people, people who want to win an argument, will seek facts to fit their narrative.

better to find a narrative that supports the facts. it works for me.

Felton is ranked No. 48 among 50 point guards, according to CBSSports.com.

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

almost is the operative word. intellectually dishonest people, people who want to win an argument, will seek facts to fit their narrative.

better to find a narrative that supports the facts. it works for me.

Well there is this from last February but it wasn't just out of the 30 starters. The pool of point guards also included 20 back ups.

Felton is ranked No. 48 among 50 point guards, according to CBSSports.com.

http://theknicksblog.com/knicks/nba-exec...

obviously the knicks would have been better off retaining lin, then-- the plan was to bring in kidd to mentor lin. but woodson was confoundingly never high on lin and melo being melo....

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

almost is the operative word. intellectually dishonest people, people who want to win an argument, will seek facts to fit their narrative.

better to find a narrative that supports the facts. it works for me.

Well there is this from last February but it wasn't just out of the 30 starters. The pool of point guards also included 20 back ups.

Felton is ranked No. 48 among 50 point guards, according to CBSSports.com.

http://theknicksblog.com/knicks/nba-exec...

obviously the knicks would have been better off retaining lin, then-- the plan was to bring in kidd to mentor lin. but woodson was confoundingly never high on lin and melo being melo....

Notice CBS provided no real basis for how they ranked the guards

They also have players on the list who were backups

Or Players who started at other positions

Very Dubious ranking, but I think we all agree Felton was bad

Needless to say I pointed out fitzfarm

Stating Calderon was better defensively over Felton

Not accurate whatsoever

I provided a link and a quoted piece from Begley article dismissing this

This is what I'm talking about too, when it comes to using

Stats to support the narrative

In the link you'll see by the time the year concluded

Tony Parker was ranked 23rd and Brandon Jennings 12th

Why place your contributions in a discussion

At jeopardy citing such a heinous reference

How was Monta Ellis 6th and Calderon 18th

LOL @ CBS

F500ONE wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

nixluva wrote:I don't care about stats in this case. What I will say about Felton is that he had Tyson behind him and KMart for a stretch. He himself was absolutely HORRID defensively. I don't give him any credit for being a better defender than Jose.

This video is not safe for work, so turn down the sound, but it really shows Felton's horrid defense and offense. Just his overall game isn't really worth the minutes he played.

Yeah but Jose had Dalembert!

Might as well play along and add this

To cause Nix to fall on his own sword

Jose had Carlisle Felton had Woody

I could also find Youtube footage of Tyson's horrifc defense last year

Funny how Nix doesn't want to look at stats in this case

Although he's notorious for producing stats in posted code format

When it suits his irrational arguments

Almost everyone does that though when making an argument.

almost is the operative word. intellectually dishonest people, people who want to win an argument, will seek facts to fit their narrative.

better to find a narrative that supports the facts. it works for me.

Well there is this from last February but it wasn't just out of the 30 starters. The pool of point guards also included 20 back ups.

Felton is ranked No. 48 among 50 point guards, according to CBSSports.com.

http://theknicksblog.com/knicks/nba-exec...

obviously the knicks would have been better off retaining lin, then-- the plan was to bring in kidd to mentor lin. but woodson was confoundingly never high on lin and melo being melo....

Notice CBS provided no real basis for how they ranked the guards

They also have players on the list who were backups

Or Players who started at other positions

Very Dubious ranking, but I think we all agree Felton was bad

Needless to say I pointed out fitzfarm

Stating Calderon was better defensively over Felton

Not accurate whatsoever

I provided a link and a quoted piece from Begley article dismissing this

This is what I'm talking about too, when it comes to using

Stats to support the narrative

In the link you'll see by the time the year concluded

Tony Parker was ranked 23rd and Brandon Jennings 12th

Why place your contributions in a discussion

At jeopardy citing such a heinous reference

How was Monta Ellis 6th and Calderon 18th

LOL @ CBS

felton was a negative-sum player, of that there can be no doubt. even at the top of his game felton was not even a positive-sum player.

at least calderon has an opportunity, in a nash-like way, to net out as a positive-sum player. in other words, make sure your offensive contributions and assets outweigh your defensive liabilities.