Knicks · I can see no way that the Knicks are much better than last season because point guard change. Convince me or agree (page 5)

TripleThreat wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:The pg position in the NBA is the absolute toughest position to defend without adequate help. There the quickest guys on the court, best handle, can pull up, penetrate, drive, pass, cross you over.

They have more scoring PG's in the league now, than they have ever had at one time.

IMHO, this was an intentional design under David Stern's regime. By eliminating hand checking and forcing the refs to officiate big men a certain way, he essentially empowered slashers and made long range shooting a functional "specialty" skill instead of something fundamentally required in every NBA non big.

Point guard has the lowest positional value in the NBA. Because the league is so height dependent, it is much easier to find a larger pool of players at the 6'2 to 6'4 range than it is to find the super athletic 6'7 to 6'9 guy. It's even harder to find the legit two way 7'2 guy. Hence center and elite wing are positions that are coveted and so hard to fill.

The larger the pool of players ( i.e. the larger the general talent base) the easier it is to find a player who can operate at league average "replacement level"

People don't want to watch highlight reels on ESPN of Nick Collision setting picks. Or Luis Scola' footwork in the low post. They want to see some guy do a windmill 360 jam, over some hapless big man, even if that player can't do anything else that's fundamentaly sound on the basketball court. Also point guards and wings are better free throw shooters, much easier to control the pace of games and keep them close if you can rely on more predictive free throw scenarios ( i.e the Dick Bavetta reality, where he pushed the clear league mandate to keep games close and keep series alive for max profits. If you keep putting Dwight Howard to the line, he might hit one free throw or he might hit none. After a while, it will become clear you are manipulating the game by sending such a lousy free throw shooter to the line again and again to keep the game close. This is less evident in a guard, who generally shoots a much more reliable clip)

Jeremy Lin wasn't poorly valued and needed a first round pick packaged with him to move him in a trade this offseason because he had no value, he simply plays a position that generally has a low positional value in the league.

Is Calderon a better player than Felton? Absolutely. No doubt. I think a third of the NBAs backup point guards were better than Felton.

Was getting Felton over Lin a mistake? Absolutely. The Knicks lost Lin for nothing. Teams with good personnel management don't typically let an asset, any asset, walk with no compensation.

Will Calderon make the Knicks better this season? No doubt. There was nowhere else to go BUT UP at the point guard position.

Does Calderon help the Knicks long term? I doubt it. He helps them reach a very low playoff seed or close to it, along with Melo, this could be a treadmill team. Good enough to be a fringe playoff team, not good enough to contend, not bad enough to get a high enough draft pick to get real help with the select few impact draft hopefuls each year.

If people want to compare Calderon to Felton, I'll say this much. Calderon isn't waving a gun in someone's face given NY's strict anti gun policy. I care more about a guy who is focused on ball and helping the team, no matter his on court deficiencies, than a guy who is clearly a knucklehead.

The sad thing is the Knicks HAD the point guard they needed, he fell into their laps like manna from Heaven. The Knicks traded Chandler to fix a position they could have solved with some money ( an area where the Knicks can be more competitive than other teams)to retain a ready made solution, thus they could have traded Chandler for help elsewhere on the roster. Instead the Knicks traded their only trade asset this off season to fix something they broke and inflicted on themselves.

Keeping Lin and building around Lin, instead of Melo, would have this team ALREADY playing team ball. It's not his fault that Morey grabbed a pair of ball stopping team cancers in Howard and Harden right after acquiring Lin and Asik that limited his Rockets upside. When Harden was out of certain games, it was clear Lin could be ball dominant, run the offense, and be an effective offensive threat. He was and is everything the Knicks needed the last two seasons.

While people here can debate who won the Melo trade, NY or Denver, I think people forgot that the Nuggets were playing really solid team ball when Melo WAS GONE. Despite losing a superstar player, they were passing the ball more, trying to find the open man, taking the high percentage opportunity. Which goes back to my main point, Calderon isn't the lynchpin that makes or breaks the Knicks, because Melo already BREAKS the Knicks.

You can't win a championship in the NBA with Melo as your go to primary Alpha player on the roster.

I agree with some of your points, but if you take a look around the league, there's very few traditional SG like Reggie, jordan, spreewell, houston, most teams play 2 PG's, hell, San an just won a title playing patty mills and parker for long stretches, especially in the 4th qtr.

When we won the bronze metal in 2004 Olympics with a bunch of "Me first players" who couldn't shoot jumpers, with a PG (marbury) who scored the most points ever by a US Olympic player(your fkng pg), STERN set out to change the NBA game to a more Euro style of play.

I can't remember the last time the best defensive team in the league won a championship.

Like Nix said, this is not going to be a top ten defensive team, as long as we can be a middle of the pack defensive team, and a top 5 offensive team, we can contend.

Bonn1997 wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:While people here can debate who won the Melo trade, NY or Denver, I think people forgot that the Nuggets were playing really solid team ball when Melo WAS GONE. Despite losing a superstar player, they were passing the ball more, trying to find the open man, taking the high percentage opportunity. Which goes back to my main point, Calderon isn't the lynchpin that makes or breaks the Knicks, because Melo already BREAKS the Knicks.

The Knicks also played solid team ball when Melo WAS HERE. Whether or not you want to attribute that to Kidd, the fact remains that it can be done and has happened.

It would make sense to attribute it to Kidd and/or the other players that left since the team ball left. We lost a lot of good passing and a few efficient scorers.

TeamBall wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:While people here can debate who won the Melo trade, NY or Denver, I think people forgot that the Nuggets were playing really solid team ball when Melo WAS GONE. Despite losing a superstar player, they were passing the ball more, trying to find the open man, taking the high percentage opportunity. Which goes back to my main point, Calderon isn't the lynchpin that makes or breaks the Knicks, because Melo already BREAKS the Knicks.

The Knicks also played solid team ball when Melo WAS HERE. Whether or not you want to attribute that to Kidd, the fact remains that it can be done and has happened.

It would make sense to attribute it to Kidd and/or the other players that left since the team ball left. We lost a lot of good passing and a few efficient scorers.

I didn't say Kidd had nothing to do with it. I'm saying that, with Melo here, team ball can be played and we already saw proof of it.

Bonn1997 wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

TeamBall wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:While people here can debate who won the Melo trade, NY or Denver, I think people forgot that the Nuggets were playing really solid team ball when Melo WAS GONE. Despite losing a superstar player, they were passing the ball more, trying to find the open man, taking the high percentage opportunity. Which goes back to my main point, Calderon isn't the lynchpin that makes or breaks the Knicks, because Melo already BREAKS the Knicks.

The Knicks also played solid team ball when Melo WAS HERE. Whether or not you want to attribute that to Kidd, the fact remains that it can be done and has happened.

It would make sense to attribute it to Kidd and/or the other players that left since the team ball left. We lost a lot of good passing and a few efficient scorers.

I didn't say Kidd had nothing to do with it. I'm saying that, with Melo here, team ball can be played and we already saw proof of it.

Fair enough. I'd say it was good but not outstanding team ball, though.

smackeddog wrote:Just out of interest- is Calderon capable of guarding SG's? or is he even worse at that than PG's? Just curious if we can have Shump on the opposing PG and put Calderon on the SG for stretches.

Calderon defending anyone is a problem. He's just an atrocious defender all around unfortunately.

smackeddog wrote:Just out of interest- is Calderon capable of guarding SG's? or is he even worse at that than PG's? Just curious if we can have Shump on the opposing PG and put Calderon on the SG for stretches.

This is a definite possibility. I think mostly we can't just leave him out on an island. I'd like to see on ball pressure early to make the PG give up the ball. Basically attack their best ball handler rather than let him be comfortable. We actually did that more often in the 54 win season.

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Just out of interest- is Calderon capable of guarding SG's? or is he even worse at that than PG's? Just curious if we can have Shump on the opposing PG and put Calderon on the SG for stretches.

This is a definite possibility. I think mostly we can't just leave him out on an island. I'd like to see on ball pressure early to make the PG give up the ball. Basically attack their best ball handler rather than let him be comfortable. We actually did that more often in the 54 win season.

We were successful with prigs playing that hounding role and calderone is better than prigs at defense. H1and1 is just screaming fire in a movie theater.

Calderone can hold his own, he's just not lock down.

I repeat. Until we get examples of a point guard that would suffice, I argue we have a more than capable defensive team and scheme.

babyKnicks wrote:

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Just out of interest- is Calderon capable of guarding SG's? or is he even worse at that than PG's? Just curious if we can have Shump on the opposing PG and put Calderon on the SG for stretches.

This is a definite possibility. I think mostly we can't just leave him out on an island. I'd like to see on ball pressure early to make the PG give up the ball. Basically attack their best ball handler rather than let him be comfortable. We actually did that more often in the 54 win season.

We were successful with prigs playing that hounding role and calderone is better than prigs at defense. H1and1 is just screaming fire in a movie theater.

Calderone can hold his own, he's just not lock down.

I repeat. Until we get examples of a point guard that would suffice, I argue we have a more than capable defensive team and scheme.

If Jose can be more consistent with fighting over the pick rather than waiting too late and allowing the pick to eat him up, he can be alright defensively. Here are 2 videos of Jose guarding the PnR and one he does right and the other he does wrong.

Here is Jose again being active defensively. He may not be great but he's giving an honest effort in the defensive scheme Dallas was using.

It seems to me that Carlisle demanded effort from Jose and he did try to defend. It's going to be about consistency of effort and better technique like he showed in a couple of these videos.

F500ONE wrote:

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:Where were Jose and Felton ranked in 2012-2013

Where were Jose and Felton ranked in 2011-2012

I'm asking about these 2 season for a very specific reason

Whatever links you're referring to in point guard rankings

Please recite those again for these 2 seasons

MAN just make your damn point. I'm not here to do homework assignments!!!

Okay provide me the links you referenced for

Last year's rankings and I'll take it from there

Well I thought as surely as you're quick to post

Youtube videos that you'd have those links I politely asked for

Referenced at your disposal

I can back ALL OF MY TALK UP WITH LINKS AND VIDEOS

Here's why I asked for those 2 seasons in which

I had a hunch you would play hide and go seek after I asked

Felton had a horrific year in 2011-2012

In Portland it was his absolute worst season of his career at this juncture

It rivaled his last season with us

Yet we decided to sign and trade for him

Did you support bringing Felton back, do you have the guts to answer this direct question

Did you think he was going to have a better season than Lin

Did you think by adding him he would spike our win total from 36 to 50gms

Well Felton had a relatively nice bounce back season

Me personally I didn't like the idea of bringing him back, especially via S&T

I would have preferred to keep Lin

Felton is what his is a middle of the road starting point guard

Who's best season, his last year in Charlotte under LB

Go look at his numbers prior to coming here, they look relatively the same as

His time spent here

Lo and Behold his last season with us

And all of a sudden according to most Knicks primarily you

He is the worst starting point guard in the NBA

This was the same point guard the yr prior to

We were begging for his hand to heal as I believe we were 6-7 without him

Here's a 2011 ranking Top 20 by Bleacher Report

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/58931...

Felton was 8th and Calderon was 16th

Here's a more current ranking by another site 2013-2014 by rantsports

http://www.complex.com/sports/2013/10/nb...

Calderon was 17th and Felton was 25th

As of the here and now Calderon is more than likely

Ranked ahead of Felton

No it's not because Calderon all of a sudden

Became better than Felton

My point is I don't think Felton is really any different

Now than he was a few yrs ago, nor Calderon

Team success can greatly influence how a player is perceived

As a talent, although Felton statistically had a down yr last yr

Just like he did back in 2011-2012

Along with additions of Ellis and Dalembert etc etc

Dallas won 49gms

How come Calderon didn't have the 10-15gm impact out there

How do you divide the 8gm win impact across

Calderon-Dalembert-Ellis

Segment the wins out proportionately

If you say because the West is deep

Well we play 30gms against them this yr

The West didn't lose much competitive balance if any

The East has improved, 1-15 very much so

F500ONE wrote:Calderon went to a 41-41 team

Along with additions of Ellis and Dalembert etc etc

Dallas won 49gms

How come Calderon didn't have the 10-15gm impact out there

How do you divide the 8gm win impact across

Calderon-Dalembert-Ellis

Segment the wins out proportionately

If you say because the West is deep

Well we play 30gms against them this yr

The West didn't lose much competitive balance if any

The East has improved, 1-15 very much so

Reading all of your drivel I can see now where you have misconceptions about what i'm saying. I have NEVER said that Jose by himself would be the reason this team would win 10 or more games this year. That's missing the point entirely. Just because we've been talking about Jose in particular doesn't mean we're saying he's like adding CP3 or DRose to the team. Let's not get crazy. I've said many times that it's the "cumulative effect" of adding Jose and removing Felton, PLUS all the other changes. We have 7 new players, a new coaching staff that has multiple Titles experience and a proven System that the team will be running, which is focused on Team Ball. Now we'll have Ball and Player movement. I think Phil has already had a positive effect on the players we have and that they are coming in ready and willing to buy into what he's asking of them. ALL OF THESE things are the reasons I feel better about this team. It's silly to think the small moves we've made like bringing in Jose all by himself would make such a huge difference.

You don't like the talent we have but IMO this team has some serious offensive talent. Even in a lost season this team was 11th in offensive rating. That was playing AWFUL ISO BB. We had slumping players and injuries and a demoralized Head Coach. I think this team can be a top offensive team and with a better defensive scheme we should be able to be better than 24th in defensive rating. Perhaps now maybe you can understand where many of us are coming from. Stop oversimplifying what the current Knicks situation is. This team has had MULTIPLE areas of improvement that you fail to recognize. Nothing sexy in terms of the roster, but that wasn't what this year was about. This is just the start of the process and not the end.

Night and day my friends.

nixluva wrote:

F500ONE wrote:Calderon went to a 41-41 team

Along with additions of Ellis and Dalembert etc etc

Dallas won 49gms

How come Calderon didn't have the 10-15gm impact out there

How do you divide the 8gm win impact across

Calderon-Dalembert-Ellis

Segment the wins out proportionately

If you say because the West is deep

Well we play 30gms against them this yr

The West didn't lose much competitive balance if any

The East has improved, 1-15 very much so

Reading all of your drivel I can see now where you have misconceptions about what i'm saying. I have NEVER said that Jose by himself would be the reason this team would win 10 or more games this year. That's missing the point entirely. Just because we've been talking about Jose in particular doesn't mean we're saying he's like adding CP3 or DRose to the team. Let's not get crazy. I've said many times that it's the "cumulative effect" of adding Jose and removing Felton, PLUS all the other changes. We have 7 new players, a new coaching staff that has multiple Titles experience and a proven System that the team will be running, which is focused on Team Ball. Now we'll have Ball and Player movement. I think Phil has already had a positive effect on the players we have and that they are coming in ready and willing to buy into what he's asking of them. ALL OF THESE things are the reasons I feel better about this team. It's silly to think the small moves we've made like bringing in Jose all by himself would make such a huge difference.

You don't like the talent we have but IMO this team has some serious offensive talent. Even in a lost season this team was 11th in offensive rating. That was playing AWFUL ISO BB. We had slumping players and injuries and a demoralized Head Coach. I think this team can be a top offensive team and with a better defensive scheme we should be able to be better than 24th in defensive rating. Perhaps now maybe you can understand where many of us are coming from. Stop oversimplifying what the current Knicks situation is. This team has had MULTIPLE areas of improvement that you fail to recognize. Nothing sexy in terms of the roster, but that wasn't what this year was about. This is just the start of the process and not the end.

Then why haven't you spent more time

Discussing the impact of Smith-Dalembert-Larkin-Cleanthony singularly

Imbalance much?

Thus far what I've gathered is

Calderon + Triangle = 10-15gm difference

Yeah collectively I think we are better than last year

It's not that I don't like the talent

There are several parts I don't like

For the record I like the Calderon addition overall

Primarily because he's solid, team player

His game doesn't peak or valley, very high IQ

Nevertheless his weakness is a glaring weakness

Also the same energy I spend in breaking our team down

I do likewise with the entire league

No need to tunnel vision our team away from the whole league

If you were asked to do a write up of each roster including Youtube videos

And all, trust me your write ups would show, you'd like a lot of what the competition has to offer

No we don't need to spend lots of time here talking about the Nuggets or Bobcats

At the same time objectivity needs to surface surmising league assessments

I think we've been making very comprehensive points about this years team overall. The East is tougher, but let's not get carried away. IF the Knicks hadn't thrown away a ton of games early in the year they likely would've been one of the playoff teams. We still have our top players in Melo, JR and up and coming THJ. I think the rest of the roster has plenty of capable role players. The key will be maximizing the talent we have.

We started last 3-13!!! I mean that was so far below what that team should've produced. That is the kind of record you'd expect from a complete rebuild team, not a team with most of it's core returning from a 54 win season. No way that was reflective of the talent the team had and what they should've been able to do. Now the team has made some important improvements to the roster, coaching staff and style of play. It should make a huge difference.

nixluva wrote:We have various threads devoted to different aspects of the current Knicks situation. Threads about the Triangle, the PF's, the guards, the coaching...

I think we've been making very comprehensive points about this years team overall. The East is tougher, but let's not get carried away. IF the Knicks hadn't thrown away a ton of games early in the year they likely would've been one of the playoff teams. We still have our top players in Melo, JR and up and coming THJ. I think the rest of the roster has plenty of capable role players. The key will be maximizing the talent we have.

We started last 3-13!!! I mean that was so far below what that team should've produced. That is the kind of record you'd expect from a complete rebuild team, not a team with most of it's core returning from a 54 win season. No way that was reflective of the talent the team had and what they should've been able to do. Now the team has made some important improvements to the roster, coaching staff and style of play. It should make a huge difference.

Total proof that talent is only a piece of a successful team. The 54 win team had injuries...team struggling without a pg when Felton was injured. Shumpert still recovering from the ACL, Amare out with the debriding procedure, Camby who really never played much, Sheed done rather early, Kurt done as well, and thats on top of the coach who coached the same way for each season he's been here and the team has won games with him coaching his way.

These are not excuses, the team overcame this stuff during that 54 win season. The team lost last year because the guys on the court stunk up the joint in close games, Melo included was his 1-8 clutch play record that year.

Last years team lost 22 games by double figures, and that was a clear case of not being resilient, and that core is still here. Say what you will but that 54 win teams veteran prescence was immeasurable.

We can only hope that the off the court veteran prescence can translate onto the court,but this isnt something Phil had to endure ever before, and nobody knows how Fisher will perform as coach.

Success based on their past is NOT guaranteed, there is no Jordan Pippen & Shaq and Kobe on the floor or a Pau Gasol, or a Bynum caliber center when healthy.

There is no former DPOY winners here like Artest or former 20ppg scorers who dedicated their time under Phil just being a defnder In Ron Harper.

This group has major flaws and is an uphill climb, but likely could win more than last year by default.

knickscity wrote:

nixluva wrote:We have various threads devoted to different aspects of the current Knicks situation. Threads about the Triangle, the PF's, the guards, the coaching...

I think we've been making very comprehensive points about this years team overall. The East is tougher, but let's not get carried away. IF the Knicks hadn't thrown away a ton of games early in the year they likely would've been one of the playoff teams. We still have our top players in Melo, JR and up and coming THJ. I think the rest of the roster has plenty of capable role players. The key will be maximizing the talent we have.

We started last 3-13!!! I mean that was so far below what that team should've produced. That is the kind of record you'd expect from a complete rebuild team, not a team with most of it's core returning from a 54 win season. No way that was reflective of the talent the team had and what they should've been able to do. Now the team has made some important improvements to the roster, coaching staff and style of play. It should make a huge difference.

Total proof that talent is only a piece of a successful team. The 54 win team had injuries...team struggling without a pg when Felton was injured. Shumpert still recovering from the ACL, Amare out with the debriding procedure, Camby who really never played much, Sheed done rather early, Kurt done as well, and thats on top of the coach who coached the same way for each season he's been here and the team has won games with him coaching his way.

These are not excuses, the team overcame this stuff during that 54 win season. The team lost last year because the guys on the court stunk up the joint in close games, Melo included was his 1-8 clutch play record that year.

Last years team lost 22 games by double figures, and that was a clear case of not being resilient, and that core is still here. Say what you will but that 54 win teams veteran prescence was immeasurable.

We can only hope that the off the court veteran prescence can translate onto the court,but this isnt something Phil had to endure ever before, and nobody knows how Fisher will perform as coach.

Success based on their past is NOT guaranteed, there is no Jordan Pippen & Shaq and Kobe on the floor or a Pau Gasol, or a Bynum caliber center when healthy.

There is no former DPOY winners here like Artest or former 20ppg scorers who dedicated their time under Phil just being a defnder In Ron Harper.

This group has major flaws and is an uphill climb, but likely could win more than last year by default.

Woody totally changed the way the team played during the 54 win season. We didn't run the same offense at all. Just look at how the team was playing to start last year. It was basically the half court MDA offense. Spread the floor and run PnR in the middle. Kidd was playing with energy and using his quick hands on D. He ran into a wall eventually, but the style of play was much different than what Woody started of going with in the 37 win season.

Not only was the offense different but Woody didn't seem to have a handle on the way the defense was played the year before either. The team seemed to have no idea how they wanted to defend. That's strange for a team that returned much of it's core. Just watching a game like this one exposed so much that was wrong with the Knicks last year. The funny thing about this video is that the Bulls were running our spread offense with PnR action from the year before!!! They were able to run back cuts and slashes to the basket in addition to getting wide open 3's. That's messed up.

babyKnicks wrote:

nixluva wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Just out of interest- is Calderon capable of guarding SG's? or is he even worse at that than PG's? Just curious if we can have Shump on the opposing PG and put Calderon on the SG for stretches.

This is a definite possibility. I think mostly we can't just leave him out on an island. I'd like to see on ball pressure early to make the PG give up the ball. Basically attack their best ball handler rather than let him be comfortable. We actually did that more often in the 54 win season.

We were successful with prigs playing that hounding role and calderone is better than prigs at defense. H1and1 is just screaming fire in a movie theater.

Calderone can hold his own, he's just not lock down.

I repeat. Until we get examples of a point guard that would suffice, I argue we have a more than capable defensive team and scheme.

Actually no, I am not an alarmist or even a pessimist I am simply a realist. For the record I've always been a big Calderon fan as he is one of the best jump shooters and three point shooters in the game plus he plays heady bball and is a good distributer to boot.

However on defense there is absolutely no denying he is a minus. Pooh poohing away his bad defense simply cannot be done if you wanna be objective about what impact he's gonna have. At the same time, how the team plays overall is going to affect and could mitigate his D as well. We don't know yet as it's all speculation about the upcoming season at this point.

I saw some horrific defense by Tyson

You know the guy Felton had to back him up

Why no Youtube videos of how

Phil's defenses played and combatted the best offenses in the league

F500ONE wrote:And the Bulls are gonna be even better this year

I saw some horrific defense by Tyson

You know the guy Felton had to back him up

Why no Youtube videos of how

Phil's defenses played and combatted the best offenses in the league

At a certain point I don't get what your angle is anymore. Are you trying to say that Felton would be better for this team now or are you just looking for ways to argue and find a some small area where Felton was as good or better than Jose. Don't you think that's besides the point? If Phil felt Felton was right for this team he would've kept him here don't you have to at least concede that? Phil could've said we're standing by our guy even tho he's made a mistake he's our PG and we'll wait for him to serve his suspension and lead our team. Phil didn't feel that way about Felton. He made a deal to move Felton and Tyson for a reason.

This isn't to say that Jose is the best PG we could possibly hope to get. What he represents is an improvement in many areas over Felton. No he's not a better defender. Jose is without a doubt a superior offensive player and he has the kind of shooting ability that a PG in this system needs to have in order to be successful.

I posted some videos of Jose playing D and at least there was some evidence that he was trying to defend and giving effort. You can see where Jose did a bad job and where he did a good job. We have to hope Fish can get him to execute better defensive technique on a more consistent basis, but let's also admit that NO ONE is shutting down DRose or any of the other really good PG's in this league. You have to defend those PG's as a team!!!