Knicks · Give Amare props (page 2)
http://www.basketball-reference.com/lead...
mreinman wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:Hot air is asking a guy who scores at 55% or where ever he is these days to pass when he should be looking to score. Yea.. thats not hot air its good basketball.nixluva wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:agree and thank god for thatMSG3 wrote:mreinman wrote:BRIGGS wrote:He is usually talked about in a dogged way but he's played very well so far--he helped win that game last night. Hes still a 20-10 player given 32 minutes.played well but the defense for the most part was brutal ... and another 0 assist night.
He refuses to pass the ball.
This is on Melo as well. 0 assists in the second half and a refusal to attempt to pass out of the double team.
Your point on not passing isn't accurate. Someone on twitter, I think Chris Herring, posted a number which showed that Amar'e has actually passed on the majority of touches he's had so far. They might not be resulting in assists, but the ball has been moving.
On defense, you are right. I think he's trying though. Jefferson scored on 3 straight touches on him in the 3rd, however, STAT made an effort to adjust and move him further from the paint. That helped.
Stat has has been moving the ball on the perimeter where he is just meant to flow and handoff (Melo too). However, once it goes into the post (ISO or with an intent to score) and they intend to shoot, there is very little chance that ball is being passed.
Amare does NOT pass once he decides that he is making a move to the hoop.
STAT is a scorer and not a playmaker. We have to temper our expectation of how much passing he should do. Just to underscore that we only had 12 TO's and 23 assists. That's a great balance for this team. PLUS it's still early in the process. People need to get off his back really.so its okay to have one of the worst usg : assist ratio's in history?
"STAT is a scorer and not a playmaker" ???
Hot Air.
so guys who generally shoot > 55% percent should not pass?
And all the great ones who did were idiots?
Do you proofread what you write?
Lets just find silly excuses for our allies so that we / they will not / cannot be held accountable .... for anything
Whats the point in just zeroing in on the things a player isn't good at and ignoring what they are good at? Good luck on finding players with no flaws!
smackeddog wrote:mreinman wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:Hot air is asking a guy who scores at 55% or where ever he is these days to pass when he should be looking to score. Yea.. thats not hot air its good basketball.nixluva wrote:fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:agree and thank god for thatMSG3 wrote:mreinman wrote:BRIGGS wrote:He is usually talked about in a dogged way but he's played very well so far--he helped win that game last night. Hes still a 20-10 player given 32 minutes.played well but the defense for the most part was brutal ... and another 0 assist night.
He refuses to pass the ball.
This is on Melo as well. 0 assists in the second half and a refusal to attempt to pass out of the double team.
Your point on not passing isn't accurate. Someone on twitter, I think Chris Herring, posted a number which showed that Amar'e has actually passed on the majority of touches he's had so far. They might not be resulting in assists, but the ball has been moving.
On defense, you are right. I think he's trying though. Jefferson scored on 3 straight touches on him in the 3rd, however, STAT made an effort to adjust and move him further from the paint. That helped.
Stat has has been moving the ball on the perimeter where he is just meant to flow and handoff (Melo too). However, once it goes into the post (ISO or with an intent to score) and they intend to shoot, there is very little chance that ball is being passed.
Amare does NOT pass once he decides that he is making a move to the hoop.
STAT is a scorer and not a playmaker. We have to temper our expectation of how much passing he should do. Just to underscore that we only had 12 TO's and 23 assists. That's a great balance for this team. PLUS it's still early in the process. People need to get off his back really.so its okay to have one of the worst usg : assist ratio's in history?
"STAT is a scorer and not a playmaker" ???
Hot Air.
so guys who generally shoot > 55% percent should not pass?
And all the great ones who did were idiots?
Do you proofread what you write?
Lets just find silly excuses for our allies so that we / they will not / cannot be held accountable .... for anything
Whats the point in just zeroing in on the things a player isn't good at and ignoring what they are good at? Good luck on finding players with no flaws!
yeah ... not sure why Fisher has even bothered to ask him to play defense.
Not why he has asked Melo to pass more either. The dude can score and he does not like passing or perhaps is not really good at it. Just shoot guys ... stick to what you know and have been allowed to get away with.
fishmike wrote:isnt this your favorite stat????
http://www.basketball-reference.com/lead...
TS is important when it comes to discussing efficient shooting. TS does not play defense or pass nor does it prevent turnovers or spread the floor.
I was the biggest anti Tyson person on this board. I hated before everyone jumped ship.
obviously only a dummy concentrates on one thing and chooses to ignore other factors.
mreinman wrote:dont be so hard on yourself. I know you love to focus on these advanced stats. Dummy is a litle strong though. Plus you hate Amare. Biased maybe but dummy is being to hard on yourself.fishmike wrote:isnt this your favorite stat????
http://www.basketball-reference.com/lead...TS is important when it comes to discussing efficient shooting. TS does not play defense or pass nor does it prevent turnovers or spread the floor.
I was the biggest anti Tyson person on this board. I hated before everyone jumped ship.
obviously only a dummy concentrates on one thing and chooses to ignore other factors.
Lets refocus. Amare is gone. He's a renta-player at this point but he's got a skill set and if not for injuries that skill set had him HOF bound. So while he's here, his scoring can help us win games. Lets focus on what Amare can do to help us win. Its the same thing that helped other teams win. Get the ball around the hoop and push it home.
Here's two stats:
Knicks won
Amare played well
OR
You can dwell on the EFF stats of a guy who's gone in a year when he just helped us win a game against a pretty good team. Im sure Bonn could give you 2-3 pages on that. Maybe Tomverve also
I'm happy. I'm more than happy..
Mad props!
I didn't seem much triangle goodness last nite. I saw Amare quick in the paint and Melo close as a star player should.
I saw the Hornets lack a closer.
That was last nite. Hornets are not very good right now.
Nalod wrote:
I didn't seem much triangle goodness last nite. I saw Amare quick in the paint and Melo close as a star player should.
I saw the Hornets lack a closer.That was last nite. Hornets are not very good right now.
i've been following the "i don't see the triangle" sentiments in the media, and from what I'm seeing, the triangle is alive and well, HOWEVER, if the defense presents an opportunity, we take it.
Triangle is about spacing and ball movement, not about running to a particular part of the floor that the defense has watched numerous amounts of film on and can run to the spot before you.
Don't be too naive to think it's about the triangle every play.
Spacing, sharing the ball, hit the open man.
That's the triangle...it's a philosophy, not a set of plays.
Nalod wrote:Hornets have one of the best closers in the game to be honest... I think Kemba is literally paid $12mm to take those shots and he makes a ton pf them
I didn't seem much triangle goodness last nite. I saw Amare quick in the paint and Melo close as a star player should.
I saw the Hornets lack a closer.That was last nite. Hornets are not very good right now.
EnySpree wrote:Amare was never a 20/10 player....I give respect when is due. Amare had a good offensive game Last night. He went back and forth with al Jefferson in the post and it was fun to see.But the dude is either going to score or turn the ball over. He did both yesterday. He got rebound but he hardly was in the mix fighting for rebound. All of his boards came to him. He still will not secure rebounds in traffic and if we really need it.
What game were you watching, Amare had zero TO's, and Al had only 4 rebounds for the game and played 10 more minutes, So i guess Al J sucks too.
babyKnicks wrote:Nalod wrote:
I didn't seem much triangle goodness last nite. I saw Amare quick in the paint and Melo close as a star player should.
I saw the Hornets lack a closer.That was last nite. Hornets are not very good right now.
i've been following the "i don't see the triangle" sentiments in the media, and from what I'm seeing, the triangle is alive and well, HOWEVER, if the defense presents an opportunity, we take it.Triangle is about spacing and ball movement, not about running to a particular part of the floor that the defense has watched numerous amounts of film on and can run to the spot before you.
Don't be too naive to think it's about the triangle every play.
Spacing, sharing the ball, hit the open man.
That's the triangle...it's a philosophy, not a set of plays.
Exactly
LOL..I don't see triangles.
Do some of you guys even listen to Fisher when he talks about the triangle. It's not about forming a triangle and just staying like that and moving the ball around like we're the "globtrotters"
knicks1248 wrote:EnySpree wrote:Amare was never a 20/10 player....I give respect when is due. Amare had a good offensive game Last night. He went back and forth with al Jefferson in the post and it was fun to see.But the dude is either going to score or turn the ball over. He did both yesterday. He got rebound but he hardly was in the mix fighting for rebound. All of his boards came to him. He still will not secure rebounds in traffic and if we really need it.
What game were you watching, Amare had zero TO's, and Al had only 4 rebounds for the game and played 10 more minutes, So i guess Al J sucks too.
Stumbling and bumbling counts as a turnover to me. A few times he lost the ball trying to make a move. The stats don't tell the whole story. And yeah al Jefferson seemed less enthusiastic out there yesterday. He wasn't a factor on the boards at all.
EnySpree wrote:knicks1248 wrote:EnySpree wrote:Amare was never a 20/10 player....I give respect when is due. Amare had a good offensive game Last night. He went back and forth with al Jefferson in the post and it was fun to see.But the dude is either going to score or turn the ball over. He did both yesterday. He got rebound but he hardly was in the mix fighting for rebound. All of his boards came to him. He still will not secure rebounds in traffic and if we really need it.
What game were you watching, Amare had zero TO's, and Al had only 4 rebounds for the game and played 10 more minutes, So i guess Al J sucks too.
Stumbling and bumbling counts as a turnover to me. A few times he lost the ball trying to make a move. The stats don't tell the whole story. And yeah al Jefferson seemed less enthusiastic out there yesterday. He wasn't a factor on the boards at all.
He was blinded by STATs greatness. We call that the Amare effect
EnySpree wrote:knicks1248 wrote:EnySpree wrote:Amare was never a 20/10 player....I give respect when is due. Amare had a good offensive game Last night. He went back and forth with al Jefferson in the post and it was fun to see.But the dude is either going to score or turn the ball over. He did both yesterday. He got rebound but he hardly was in the mix fighting for rebound. All of his boards came to him. He still will not secure rebounds in traffic and if we really need it.
What game were you watching, Amare had zero TO's, and Al had only 4 rebounds for the game and played 10 more minutes, So i guess Al J sucks too.
Stumbling and bumbling counts as a turnover to me. A few times he lost the ball trying to make a move. The stats don't tell the whole story. And yeah al Jefferson seemed less enthusiastic out there yesterday. He wasn't a factor on the boards at all.
So almost turning the ball over is still a turnover for you..lol
I guess almost making 2 points is the same as making 2 points..Dude WTH are you talking about???
TripleThreat wrote:fishmike wrote:people dont look at this guy objectively anymore. I get it.In order to effectively run the "Triangle", one of your bigs needs to be able to pass out of the high post. You need a team oriented player at PF ( but also at all the other Triangle slots) who can read a defense and be a good decision maker. And do this very quickly as things open up and break down on a second by second basis on the court.
I could care less about STAT scoring X amount of points than I do seeing him hit a player cutting at the right time. Or see something better than his mediocre footwork ( which is part of the root issue with his defense and his spacing problems) There are also times when the Triangle dictates that the player must pass. There isn't a decision but to pass and keep the ball moving. Players who "get" the Triangle don't have to hesitate to make that pass, players don't get the Triangle ( and may never) will always be a second or two behind.
The best offensive set for the Knicks Triangle is actually STAT at center and Melo at power forward. ( I'm not saying the "ideal" set, I'm saying the best the Knicks can do given this specific roster and where the players are in this place and time in terms of skill, BB IQ and general trends in their strengths/weaknesses) Except it leaves no one to defend the rim. And that will highlight one of the worst things that STAT does in a Knicks uniform. Even if you can't do X , Y and Z, you can at least play tough. You can at least set hard picks, send out a forearm shiver or two and be willing to sacrifice your body to bang it down low. Sadly STAT won't even give the Knicks that. Watch Chuck Hayes sometime. Then watch STAT. And see how a player who is so much less talented that most other NBA players simply outworks and outwills others like every second is his last on Earth.
STAT cannot consistently hit a three point shot at an above average rate, not compared to the league's average Stretch 4s. He can't efficiently and effectively score with his back to the basket. Add this to his defensive problems, his injury history and his poor decision making, and he creates a series of negative trade off situations. One of the basic tenets of the Triangle is that it opens up a wide option tree of potential shots. Except STAT is woefully inefficient in many of those scenarios.
A player who can do X well, but at the cost of what you need at Y and Z, that's not helping your team situation. Sadly, the Knicks currently don't have a ton of options given all the assets they've gutted themselves of in recent times.
Make the correct pass, make good decisions when the offense is meant to flow through you, learn to hit a cutter at the right time, get your footwork in order, move well without the ball, actually develop other aspects of your offense to make you a scoring threat all over the floor. To me, this is FAR MORE CRITICAL for STAT in the Triangle than his counting stats for points and rebounds.
Ray Allen is a HOF player. He can fill it up, scoring a bunch in a few minutes with his deadly three point shot. And he won't get more than a minimum contract sniff. Why? Because his creates negative trade offs at this point in his career than even, maybe the greatest long range shooter in NBA history, can't overcome.
Do you remember when Monta Ellis sat and rotted on the free agent market and then signed a bargain deal for the Mavericks. Kid could fill up the cup. Sadly he cost you everywhere else.
"Objectively", STAT is a low IQ player who relied on his lost athleticism, who will be a consistently poor decision maker in the high post while trying to set the Triangle offense. His best offensive position is center. His worst defensive position is just being on the floor, but when he's at center, he compromises the entire teams defense. He's also a contract year guy trying to stat pad the only thing he can offer, some variations of his limited offense and rebounding numbers.
That's a definitive answer on why Stat's FG% doesn't make him a good player anymore. I don't expect any meaningful rebuttals to this.
Splat wrote:TripleThreat wrote:fishmike wrote:people dont look at this guy objectively anymore. I get it.In order to effectively run the "Triangle", one of your bigs needs to be able to pass out of the high post. You need a team oriented player at PF ( but also at all the other Triangle slots) who can read a defense and be a good decision maker. And do this very quickly as things open up and break down on a second by second basis on the court.
I could care less about STAT scoring X amount of points than I do seeing him hit a player cutting at the right time. Or see something better than his mediocre footwork ( which is part of the root issue with his defense and his spacing problems) There are also times when the Triangle dictates that the player must pass. There isn't a decision but to pass and keep the ball moving. Players who "get" the Triangle don't have to hesitate to make that pass, players don't get the Triangle ( and may never) will always be a second or two behind.
The best offensive set for the Knicks Triangle is actually STAT at center and Melo at power forward. ( I'm not saying the "ideal" set, I'm saying the best the Knicks can do given this specific roster and where the players are in this place and time in terms of skill, BB IQ and general trends in their strengths/weaknesses) Except it leaves no one to defend the rim. And that will highlight one of the worst things that STAT does in a Knicks uniform. Even if you can't do X , Y and Z, you can at least play tough. You can at least set hard picks, send out a forearm shiver or two and be willing to sacrifice your body to bang it down low. Sadly STAT won't even give the Knicks that. Watch Chuck Hayes sometime. Then watch STAT. And see how a player who is so much less talented that most other NBA players simply outworks and outwills others like every second is his last on Earth.
STAT cannot consistently hit a three point shot at an above average rate, not compared to the league's average Stretch 4s. He can't efficiently and effectively score with his back to the basket. Add this to his defensive problems, his injury history and his poor decision making, and he creates a series of negative trade off situations. One of the basic tenets of the Triangle is that it opens up a wide option tree of potential shots. Except STAT is woefully inefficient in many of those scenarios.
A player who can do X well, but at the cost of what you need at Y and Z, that's not helping your team situation. Sadly, the Knicks currently don't have a ton of options given all the assets they've gutted themselves of in recent times.
Make the correct pass, make good decisions when the offense is meant to flow through you, learn to hit a cutter at the right time, get your footwork in order, move well without the ball, actually develop other aspects of your offense to make you a scoring threat all over the floor. To me, this is FAR MORE CRITICAL for STAT in the Triangle than his counting stats for points and rebounds.
Ray Allen is a HOF player. He can fill it up, scoring a bunch in a few minutes with his deadly three point shot. And he won't get more than a minimum contract sniff. Why? Because his creates negative trade offs at this point in his career than even, maybe the greatest long range shooter in NBA history, can't overcome.
Do you remember when Monta Ellis sat and rotted on the free agent market and then signed a bargain deal for the Mavericks. Kid could fill up the cup. Sadly he cost you everywhere else.
"Objectively", STAT is a low IQ player who relied on his lost athleticism, who will be a consistently poor decision maker in the high post while trying to set the Triangle offense. His best offensive position is center. His worst defensive position is just being on the floor, but when he's at center, he compromises the entire teams defense. He's also a contract year guy trying to stat pad the only thing he can offer, some variations of his limited offense and rebounding numbers.
That's a definitive answer on why Stat's FG% doesn't make him a good player anymore. I don't expect any meaningful rebuttals to this.
79gms left and he is a Knick no more
Joy to the world the Bum has Gone
TripleThreat wrote:fishmike wrote:people dont look at this guy objectively anymore. I get it.In order to effectively run the "Triangle", one of your bigs needs to be able to pass out of the high post. You need a team oriented player at PF ( but also at all the other Triangle slots) who can read a defense and be a good decision maker. And do this very quickly as things open up and break down on a second by second basis on the court.
I could care less about STAT scoring X amount of points than I do seeing him hit a player cutting at the right time. Or see something better than his mediocre footwork ( which is part of the root issue with his defense and his spacing problems) There are also times when the Triangle dictates that the player must pass. There isn't a decision but to pass and keep the ball moving. Players who "get" the Triangle don't have to hesitate to make that pass, players don't get the Triangle ( and may never) will always be a second or two behind.
The best offensive set for the Knicks Triangle is actually STAT at center and Melo at power forward. ( I'm not saying the "ideal" set, I'm saying the best the Knicks can do given this specific roster and where the players are in this place and time in terms of skill, BB IQ and general trends in their strengths/weaknesses) Except it leaves no one to defend the rim. And that will highlight one of the worst things that STAT does in a Knicks uniform. Even if you can't do X , Y and Z, you can at least play tough. You can at least set hard picks, send out a forearm shiver or two and be willing to sacrifice your body to bang it down low. Sadly STAT won't even give the Knicks that. Watch Chuck Hayes sometime. Then watch STAT. And see how a player who is so much less talented that most other NBA players simply outworks and outwills others like every second is his last on Earth.
STAT cannot consistently hit a three point shot at an above average rate, not compared to the league's average Stretch 4s. He can't efficiently and effectively score with his back to the basket. Add this to his defensive problems, his injury history and his poor decision making, and he creates a series of negative trade off situations. One of the basic tenets of the Triangle is that it opens up a wide option tree of potential shots. Except STAT is woefully inefficient in many of those scenarios.
A player who can do X well, but at the cost of what you need at Y and Z, that's not helping your team situation. Sadly, the Knicks currently don't have a ton of options given all the assets they've gutted themselves of in recent times.
Make the correct pass, make good decisions when the offense is meant to flow through you, learn to hit a cutter at the right time, get your footwork in order, move well without the ball, actually develop other aspects of your offense to make you a scoring threat all over the floor. To me, this is FAR MORE CRITICAL for STAT in the Triangle than his counting stats for points and rebounds.
Ray Allen is a HOF player. He can fill it up, scoring a bunch in a few minutes with his deadly three point shot. And he won't get more than a minimum contract sniff. Why? Because his creates negative trade offs at this point in his career than even, maybe the greatest long range shooter in NBA history, can't overcome.
Do you remember when Monta Ellis sat and rotted on the free agent market and then signed a bargain deal for the Mavericks. Kid could fill up the cup. Sadly he cost you everywhere else.
"Objectively", STAT is a low IQ player who relied on his lost athleticism, who will be a consistently poor decision maker in the high post while trying to set the Triangle offense. His best offensive position is center. His worst defensive position is just being on the floor, but when he's at center, he compromises the entire teams defense. He's also a contract year guy trying to stat pad the only thing he can offer, some variations of his limited offense and rebounding numbers.
Take away stats 17 and 10 and we lose that game by 9. Obviously Stat might not be here next year but if we focus on this season game by game--we cannot account for 17-10 anywhere else on this roster. 17 and 10 were material to the win much more so than anyone on the roster not named Melo. Whatever way you want to break it down--stat put in 17 points and grabbed 10 rebounds in 21 minutes @ 54%.
Great Job so far Fisher
I still get very ticked off at certain parts of his game and that will not change.
I also disagree with the poster who stated that he did not get any traffic rebounds last game. He got many really good tough rebounds.
He may not be able to play defense so that it what it is but he certainly can learn that he does not have to shoot every time he gets the ball in the post. He (I think) can still make that pass that nobody wants him to make. He can't put the ball on the floor and go 1 on 3 and expect to not lose the ball or get off a good shot. Sometimes you just have to make the pass no matter how much you hate to. That is not Amare just being dumb, its Amare being selfish. This is a team game ... all the greats no matter how well they could score would also pass the ball when collapsed upon.
To one posters point, he is a gonner so why focus on the negative? Maybe ... I just look at each game by itself. When I watch the game and see such play it pisses me off, and thats not just with our players but any selfish ball hog who believes that there cannot be a better shot than his own.
Amare did make one of these passes against cleveland and I stood up and cheered. No reason that he can't do more of that.
The same for Melo.