Knicks · Buy sell hold (page 1)

IF Iman Shumpert sustains his play throughout the season and stays relatively injury free

as in 14 points 4.5 rebounds 3 assists 1.5 steals with good solid D--how much will he command from the Knicks? My guess is north of 6.5mm$ Would u pay that for Shump?

BRIGGS wrote:IF Iman Shumpert sustains his play throughout the season and stays relatively injury free

as in 14 points 4.5 rebounds 3 assists 1.5 steals with good solid D--how much will he command from the Knicks? My guess is north of 6.5mm$ Would u pay that for Shump?

if he (efficiently) keeps those numbers up and is a top defensive guard then he will get at least 8 million IMHO.

He's in a strong position to set his market value based on his performance after the All-Star break regardless of the fate of the team this season.

He is likely perceived around the league as possessing a talent level and skill set that has never really gelled, so if he shows consistency for the last 40 games on both ends of the court and scores 15 ppg efficiently (no more hesitation) and continues to show leadership while being a superior defender, he can command $6M probably quite easily.

Or he could only get $2-3M a year if he cannot sustain a 2-way effort this year.

BTW, since you are the king of starting threads, I dub thee Prolificus

Splat wrote:He's in a strong position to set his market value based on his performance after the All-Star break regardless of the fate of the team this season.

He is likely perceived around the league as possessing a talent level and skill set that has never really gelled, so if he shows consistency for the last 40 games on both ends of the court and scores 15 ppg efficiently (no more hesitation) and continues to show leadership while being a superior defender, he can command $6M probably quite easily.

Or he could only get $2-3M a year if he cannot sustain a 2-way effort this year.

BTW, since you are the king of starting threads, I dub thee Prolificus

thanks for the - If <> Possible - scenario

mreinman wrote:

Splat wrote:He's in a strong position to set his market value based on his performance after the All-Star break regardless of the fate of the team this season.

He is likely perceived around the league as possessing a talent level and skill set that has never really gelled, so if he shows consistency for the last 40 games on both ends of the court and scores 15 ppg efficiently (no more hesitation) and continues to show leadership while being a superior defender, he can command $6M probably quite easily.

Or he could only get $2-3M a year if he cannot sustain a 2-way effort this year.

BTW, since you are the king of starting threads, I dub thee Prolificus

thanks for the - If <> Possible - scenario

You're welcome

I hope we're selling

Lets look at Shump. First of all he's not getting 14ppg. He is NOT an offensive threat. The best thing he can do on offense is not turn the ball over. There isnt one goto move in his game. The reason for his inflated scoring this year is he's made the 3s he's taken. 3.2 are the most shot attemps from 3 for his career. He's hitting them at .688

Now Im just a dummy who mostly uses his eyes to judge what he sees but Im pretty sure thats not sustainable. WITH that inflated 3pt% he's shooting 43%. When that returns to normal Shump will be what we have seen... a 7-9ppg player who shoots 40% or less and never gets to the FT line.

So how much is our best ONE WAY player worth?

Well lets look around for comparison. First Shump is not a PG. Toney Douglas's PG skills vastly surpase Shumps. He cant run an offense. His passing is below average at best. Can he be a Charley Ward type PG in the triangle? Sure... he can, but lets avoid calling him a PG because he isnt.

How about this guys:
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2367/tony-allen

He's a better rebounder and shooter than Shump and he got a nice deal that locks him into $5mm a year.

the only reason Shump should or would get more is people think he's going to learn to do things he cant because he's still young. Shump at $7-$8mm? Good god no. Thats Ariza territory and Shump isnt even close to that.

Pump and sell.

He's restricted so I would offer him the QO, which puts a $3.9mm cap hold for next year but gives us some options with him.

fishmike wrote:Lets look at Shump. First of all he's not getting 14ppg. He is NOT an offensive threat. The best thing he can do on offense is not turn the ball over. There isnt one goto move in his game. The reason for his inflated scoring this year is he's made the 3s he's taken. 3.2 are the most shot attemps from 3 for his career. He's hitting them at .688

Now Im just a dummy who mostly uses his eyes to judge what he sees but Im pretty sure thats not sustainable. WITH that inflated 3pt% he's shooting 43%. When that returns to normal Shump will be what we have seen... a 7-9ppg player who shoots 40% or less and never gets to the FT line.

So how much is our best ONE WAY player worth?

Well lets look around for comparison. First Shump is not a PG. Toney Douglas's PG skills vastly surpase Shumps. He cant run an offense. His passing is below average at best. Can he be a Charley Ward type PG in the triangle? Sure... he can, but lets avoid calling him a PG because he isnt.

How about this guys:
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2367/tony-allen

He's a better rebounder and shooter than Shump and he got a nice deal that locks him into $5mm a year.

the only reason Shump should or would get more is people think he's going to learn to do things he cant because he's still young. Shump at $7-$8mm? Good god no. Thats Ariza territory and Shump isnt even close to that.

Pump and sell.

He's restricted so I would offer him the QO, which puts a $3.9mm cap hold for next year but gives us some options with him.

brilliant

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:Lets look at Shump. First of all he's not getting 14ppg. He is NOT an offensive threat. The best thing he can do on offense is not turn the ball over. There isnt one goto move in his game. The reason for his inflated scoring this year is he's made the 3s he's taken. 3.2 are the most shot attemps from 3 for his career. He's hitting them at .688

Now Im just a dummy who mostly uses his eyes to judge what he sees but Im pretty sure thats not sustainable. WITH that inflated 3pt% he's shooting 43%. When that returns to normal Shump will be what we have seen... a 7-9ppg player who shoots 40% or less and never gets to the FT line.

So how much is our best ONE WAY player worth?

Well lets look around for comparison. First Shump is not a PG. Toney Douglas's PG skills vastly surpase Shumps. He cant run an offense. His passing is below average at best. Can he be a Charley Ward type PG in the triangle? Sure... he can, but lets avoid calling him a PG because he isnt.

How about this guys:
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2367/tony-allen

He's a better rebounder and shooter than Shump and he got a nice deal that locks him into $5mm a year.

the only reason Shump should or would get more is people think he's going to learn to do things he cant because he's still young. Shump at $7-$8mm? Good god no. Thats Ariza territory and Shump isnt even close to that.

Pump and sell.

He's restricted so I would offer him the QO, which puts a $3.9mm cap hold for next year but gives us some options with him.

brilliant

True he is shooting in the low 30's on 2's? and at best his 3 pt % will be brought down to 37-38%. He's a career 37% shooter. That being said--he looks improved from last year. He's a guy who CAN get to the FT line--and we dont have much of that. Hes a willing passer--good ballhandler good defender and a decent rebounder from the 2 G. Can he keep up the 12-14 points with 30 min of pT--yes. While his 3 pt shooting will come down to earth---Id bet his 2 point shooting will come back to the low to mid 40 range. He's probably at best a 42-44% player and at worst high 30's. What he does this year--those numbers will be big for him. I think the Knicks like him and we've seen hints that a few other teams like him as well. If he can hold it together--it will be interesting to see what happens.

BRIGGS wrote:

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:Lets look at Shump. First of all he's not getting 14ppg. He is NOT an offensive threat. The best thing he can do on offense is not turn the ball over. There isnt one goto move in his game. The reason for his inflated scoring this year is he's made the 3s he's taken. 3.2 are the most shot attemps from 3 for his career. He's hitting them at .688

Now Im just a dummy who mostly uses his eyes to judge what he sees but Im pretty sure thats not sustainable. WITH that inflated 3pt% he's shooting 43%. When that returns to normal Shump will be what we have seen... a 7-9ppg player who shoots 40% or less and never gets to the FT line.

So how much is our best ONE WAY player worth?

Well lets look around for comparison. First Shump is not a PG. Toney Douglas's PG skills vastly surpase Shumps. He cant run an offense. His passing is below average at best. Can he be a Charley Ward type PG in the triangle? Sure... he can, but lets avoid calling him a PG because he isnt.

How about this guys:
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2367/tony-allen

He's a better rebounder and shooter than Shump and he got a nice deal that locks him into $5mm a year.

the only reason Shump should or would get more is people think he's going to learn to do things he cant because he's still young. Shump at $7-$8mm? Good god no. Thats Ariza territory and Shump isnt even close to that.

Pump and sell.

He's restricted so I would offer him the QO, which puts a $3.9mm cap hold for next year but gives us some options with him.

brilliant

True he is shooting in the low 30's on 2's? and at best his 3 pt % will be brought down to 37-38%. He's a career 37% shooter. That being said--he looks improved from last year. He's a guy who CAN get to the FT line--and we dont have much of that. Hes a willing passer--good ballhandler good defender and a decent rebounder from the 2 G. Can he keep up the 12-14 points with 30 min of pT--yes. While his 3 pt shooting will come down to earth---Id bet his 2 point shooting will come back to the low to mid 40 range. He's probably at best a 42-44% player and at worst high 30's. What he does this year--those numbers will be big for him. I think the Knicks like him and we've seen hints that a few other teams like him as well. If he can hold it together--it will be interesting to see what happens.

He will look pretty terrible again when his shooting comes back down to earth. He is one of the worst finishing guard in the league.

Can he change? Doubful but lets see and hope.

Im selling. Give him an extra Mil for the hightop. Gotta be worth something.

His mechanics change game to game on his shot. He plays on his athletic strength is is a good thing but his fundamentals are not vastly improved.

At the right price I keep him but thats an easy answer.

Alec Burks just got a deal at about 4 year 40mill

Ben Gordon just got a 2 year deal at 4.5m per year

Atlanta just paid

Kent Bazemore 2 years 2m per year
Thabo Sefolosha 3 year 4m per year
Mike Scott 3 year 3.33m per year

Averey Bradley extended for 4 years 8m per year
Quincy Pondexter was extend for 4 years about 3.45m

CJ Miles for 4 years about 4.3m per year
Chase Budinger and Corey Brewer are paid about 5m per year
Nick Young for under 5m per year for 4 years (player option final year)

Evan Turner for 2 years about 3.35m per year

Jodie Meeks just got over 6m per year for 4 years
DJ Augistine/Bayless got the range of 3m to be backups

While some players get the vet min like

Donald Sloan
Rodney Stuckey
Wesley Johnson

It is hard to predict right now, as there are HIGHS and LOWS to pay for talent, some GM's might see him as a fit while others might not
I do think there will be teams that have interest in Iman's game, especially if he plays well in a system

My guess is he will likely be gone if we cannot sign him for the cheap, like a deal in the range of 2-3.5m, while targetting bigger names in other roster spots to fill
And going for whoever is left or is willing to take less

Danny Green
Gereld Green
KJ McDaniels
Wesley Johnson

I would like to keep Iman but understand it is business and we must do what is best for the team and Iman must do what is best for him
I like that he is still playing within a system and not looking to generate STATS in a contract year
Iman's highs and lows could be compared with many different contracts of players from vet mins to Tony Allen/Avery Bradley

Obviously he isn't there yet but he is finally recovered and playing in a system so the market will dictate his value and we likely will not match an offer if it is out of our price range
We will be trying to fill other positions first unless Iman proves his value to this team and another team doesn't choose to offer him a contract, maybe signing just the qualifying offer to further evaluate him

However, by not picking up Larkin's 1.7m contract next year, we are obviously looking to penny pinch to make up for the bloated contracts of the other players we have and will target in the summer
while signing Greek Freak (use 1m in cap space or part of MLE exception for a 3year deal)
and
KJ McDaniels could be much more cost efficient, they will need time to develop

But there will be cheaper options

Iman's best bet to get paid is if he can convince a GM he could be in the same tier of either Tony Allen/Avery Bradley in the near future

Will he do it?
None of us know....

but

those that continue to think that Iman's STATs/Numbers justify his value to a team, including ours, well, NUMBERS DO LIE...

Also, it would be nice to see Iman paired up with Tenacious together, especially if he can defend the PG and SG like he once did and is doing right now...
Add some better defenders at the PF, Center, and the bench, and it could go a long way....

It comes down to cost and if we can get similar production of another player while we need to redevelop chemistry and the system...
Wish Ariza could have somehow returned to us along with Wilson Chandler off the bench as well

fishmike wrote:Lets look at Shump. First of all he's not getting 14ppg. He is NOT an offensive threat. The best thing he can do on offense is not turn the ball over. There isnt one goto move in his game. The reason for his inflated scoring this year is he's made the 3s he's taken. 3.2 are the most shot attemps from 3 for his career. He's hitting them at .688

Now Im just a dummy who mostly uses his eyes to judge what he sees but Im pretty sure thats not sustainable. WITH that inflated 3pt% he's shooting 43%. When that returns to normal Shump will be what we have seen... a 7-9ppg player who shoots 40% or less and never gets to the FT line.

So how much is our best ONE WAY player worth?

Well lets look around for comparison. First Shump is not a PG. Toney Douglas's PG skills vastly surpase Shumps. He cant run an offense. His passing is below average at best. Can he be a Charley Ward type PG in the triangle? Sure... he can, but lets avoid calling him a PG because he isnt.

How about this guys:
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2367/tony-allen

He's a better rebounder and shooter than Shump and he got a nice deal that locks him into $5mm a year.

the only reason Shump should or would get more is people think he's going to learn to do things he cant because he's still young. Shump at $7-$8mm? Good god no. Thats Ariza territory and Shump isnt even close to that.

Pump and sell.

He's restricted so I would offer him the QO, which puts a $3.9mm cap hold for next year but gives us some options with him.

Realistic, spot on assessment.

BRIGGS wrote:

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:Lets look at Shump. First of all he's not getting 14ppg. He is NOT an offensive threat. The best thing he can do on offense is not turn the ball over. There isnt one goto move in his game. The reason for his inflated scoring this year is he's made the 3s he's taken. 3.2 are the most shot attemps from 3 for his career. He's hitting them at .688

Now Im just a dummy who mostly uses his eyes to judge what he sees but Im pretty sure thats not sustainable. WITH that inflated 3pt% he's shooting 43%. When that returns to normal Shump will be what we have seen... a 7-9ppg player who shoots 40% or less and never gets to the FT line.

So how much is our best ONE WAY player worth?

Well lets look around for comparison. First Shump is not a PG. Toney Douglas's PG skills vastly surpase Shumps. He cant run an offense. His passing is below average at best. Can he be a Charley Ward type PG in the triangle? Sure... he can, but lets avoid calling him a PG because he isnt.

How about this guys:
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2367/tony-allen

He's a better rebounder and shooter than Shump and he got a nice deal that locks him into $5mm a year.

the only reason Shump should or would get more is people think he's going to learn to do things he cant because he's still young. Shump at $7-$8mm? Good god no. Thats Ariza territory and Shump isnt even close to that.

Pump and sell.

He's restricted so I would offer him the QO, which puts a $3.9mm cap hold for next year but gives us some options with him.

brilliant

True he is shooting in the low 30's on 2's? and at best his 3 pt % will be brought down to 37-38%. He's a career 37% shooter. That being said--he looks improved from last year. He's a guy who CAN get to the FT line--and we dont have much of that. Hes a willing passer--good ballhandler good defender and a decent rebounder from the 2 G. Can he keep up the 12-14 points with 30 min of pT--yes. While his 3 pt shooting will come down to earth---Id bet his 2 point shooting will come back to the low to mid 40 range. He's probably at best a 42-44% player and at worst high 30's. What he does this year--those numbers will be big for him. I think the Knicks like him and we've seen hints that a few other teams like him as well. If he can hold it together--it will be interesting to see what happens.

To me its this simple. He's utterly average by NBA standards. His defense and athleticism are nice traits and make him a rotation player. But he hurts on offense. Not everyone needs to be a great scorer to play an important role on the team, but I dont see any reason to pay more than his next years QO for what he's bringing to the table.

Will Shump be that player who goes away for 4 years then becomes a reliable player? I mean if he just learns to finish he will probably become a quality player. How does someone with his athleticism never learn how to finish. Maybe he can pull a Tristen Thompson and switch strong hands. Maybe he needs to start using his left hand to dunk and lay the ball up. Most of his dunks are to strong so maybe a little more finesse is needed.

Now if he goes back to his old form or slightly above I would try to resign him for a 2 yr $3-4M. He is basically the guard version of Al Farouq Aminu in reverse.

fishmike wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Nalod wrote:

fishmike wrote:Lets look at Shump. First of all he's not getting 14ppg. He is NOT an offensive threat. The best thing he can do on offense is not turn the ball over. There isnt one goto move in his game. The reason for his inflated scoring this year is he's made the 3s he's taken. 3.2 are the most shot attemps from 3 for his career. He's hitting them at .688

Now Im just a dummy who mostly uses his eyes to judge what he sees but Im pretty sure thats not sustainable. WITH that inflated 3pt% he's shooting 43%. When that returns to normal Shump will be what we have seen... a 7-9ppg player who shoots 40% or less and never gets to the FT line.

So how much is our best ONE WAY player worth?

Well lets look around for comparison. First Shump is not a PG. Toney Douglas's PG skills vastly surpase Shumps. He cant run an offense. His passing is below average at best. Can he be a Charley Ward type PG in the triangle? Sure... he can, but lets avoid calling him a PG because he isnt.

How about this guys:
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/2367/tony-allen

He's a better rebounder and shooter than Shump and he got a nice deal that locks him into $5mm a year.

the only reason Shump should or would get more is people think he's going to learn to do things he cant because he's still young. Shump at $7-$8mm? Good god no. Thats Ariza territory and Shump isnt even close to that.

Pump and sell.

He's restricted so I would offer him the QO, which puts a $3.9mm cap hold for next year but gives us some options with him.

brilliant

True he is shooting in the low 30's on 2's? and at best his 3 pt % will be brought down to 37-38%. He's a career 37% shooter. That being said--he looks improved from last year. He's a guy who CAN get to the FT line--and we dont have much of that. Hes a willing passer--good ballhandler good defender and a decent rebounder from the 2 G. Can he keep up the 12-14 points with 30 min of pT--yes. While his 3 pt shooting will come down to earth---Id bet his 2 point shooting will come back to the low to mid 40 range. He's probably at best a 42-44% player and at worst high 30's. What he does this year--those numbers will be big for him. I think the Knicks like him and we've seen hints that a few other teams like him as well. If he can hold it together--it will be interesting to see what happens.

To me its this simple. He's utterly average by NBA standards. His defense and athleticism are nice traits and make him a rotation player. But he hurts on offense. Not everyone needs to be a great scorer to play an important role on the team, but I dont see any reason to pay more than his next years QO for what he's bringing to the table.

Fish - I normally agree with you, but with Shump, I think I see a player starting to get it & seemingly understand how he can get his in this system - which is more than what Melo looks like.

Of course, I think we have seen flashes of this before from him - last year I think he had a stretch where he looked awesome, and then he finished the year unable to buy a bucket. Maybe it was one or two games last year.

But I would expect Shump to get hurt and miss a big chunk of the season.

He's almost like Jerome James or Eddy Curry- you see the talent, the athletic ability and size, but then between the ears and on the court, he's unable to put it together.