Knicks · I'm starting to think trade hardaway for 1st round pick or other young player (page 1)

I don't like this backwards projectile that I'm seeing I expected more of an all around game. I would take nothing less than a 2015 first rounder

If you want value, you trade a player when other teams come knocking. The queries for THJ have probably ceased.

Just like Tyson. The time to trade him was mid-season last year when multiple teams were offering to make trades.

I doubt Phil sells Tim for peanuts now, because that is probably what he would get. Better to see if they can get him playing better even if it is to up his trade value.

I doubt 9 games have changed Tims value around the league. Most teams will probably put his struggles on the change in coaching philosophies. If the knicks want to trade hardaway they have to keep telling teams he is apart of the knicks future.

Anyone else a little intrigued by replacing THJr with Dion Waiters?

I am not saying Hardaway is Kobe, but judging by how irrational some of you are, you probably would want to trade Kobe as well when he was in his second year in the league. The kid is suffering just like all other young players in his second season in the league, which requires for this organization to be patient with him.

NardDogNation wrote:Anyone else a little intrigued by replacing THJr with Dion Waiters?

Sure! In a heartbeat (and tbh I'm not even a huge Waiters fan but I think he clearly has more upside that Hardaway). But is Waiters in a contract year? Why does CLE do that deal when they are in win now mode? Not sure they want to be bringing along THjr when he needs to learn how to do pretty much everything.

Or..........we could give a young player time to develop his game while learning a new system underneath a new coach, instead of thrusting every young guy out the door the moment they don't look like an all-star in their second season.

Knicks1969 wrote:I am not saying Hardaway is Kobe, but judging by how irrational some of you are, you probably would want to trade Kobe as well when he was in his second year in the league. The kid is suffering just like all other young players in his second season in the league, which requires for this organization to be patient with him.

Do you see any improvement at all from him...any?

Knicks1969 wrote:I am not saying Hardaway is Kobe, but judging by how irrational some of you are, you probably would want to trade Kobe as well when he was in his second year in the league. The kid is suffering just like all other young players in his second season in the league, which requires for this organization to be patient with him.

Bryant averaged 15/3/2 with .9 steals a game his second season which was a marked improvement over his rookie campaign. Hardaway, with known weaknesses in defense, rebounding, and basically every category except shooting 3's has shown not 1 iota of improvement in any category and has regressed in some of them including scoring (which by the way is nuts to think he could actually rebound LESS than last season).

While I don't advocate giving up on the kid so soon it certainly DOES NOT LOOK GOOD that he is regressing like this. It's a terrible sign. That is something that can't be ignored so if someone came knocking with a trade you'd have to think about it.

Interesting that Hardaway is the only guy that had his option picked up.

Here's another food for thought. He was amongst the top 5 players in SL, what does that say about the rest of his draft class, and this years draft class. This was suppose to be the best draft class since lebron and melo.

Thats why when you talk about trading for draft picks, I'm thinking, we're going to have to wait 3 to 4 yrs for this kid to develop. If you are going to trade a player like THJ,and your talking about contending while melo is in his prime, I'm going to get a young establish player, a player thats been in the league 3 to 5 yrs.

Some good points in this article advocating for more playing time for Tim. Also, what is up with Larkinaying 38 minutes?
http://theknicksblog.com/knicks/are-knic...

Another overreaction. Hardaway is a young player who is developing without much playing time. He only plays 15 minutes but still scores. He just needs to develop more on defense

H1AND1 wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:Anyone else a little intrigued by replacing THJr with Dion Waiters?

Sure! In a heartbeat (and tbh I'm not even a huge Waiters fan but I think he clearly has more upside that Hardaway). But is Waiters in a contract year? Why does CLE do that deal when they are in win now mode? Not sure they want to be bringing along THjr when he needs to learn how to do pretty much everything.

...they'd do the deal because I'd throw the fucking facet at them to make it happen. They could also have Iman, Cole Aldrich and Samuel Dalembert in the deal for Dion and filler, lol. I think Iman would fit in perfectly next to Kyrie and LeBron as a role player/starter. THJr could then be the spark off the bench.

And I think that Dion was drafted in 2012, so he's got one more year left on his rookie deal.

Been saying unload STAT's contract at the trade deadline to Philly with some assets (likely a future 1st rounder and more assets)
Saving over 60m in tax and salaries, while we reset this year, and have the ability to use the trade exemption to get back over the cap to add talent and have the full MLE to use (trade after we assemble our roster, there will be many teams looking to unload decent talents like Lakers, Detroit, Golden State, and a few others

Get back a large trade exemption that we can use next season
Either use players to match Wroten's contract or even our 3.6m trade exemption that we attained from the Tyson Chandler trade

We need speed/quickness/ability to penetrate/finsh/and facilitate
More importantly, we have many roster positions to fill and will need to find cheap but productive players
KJ McDaniels signed a 1 year deal that will make him a UFA in the end of the year, he is one of the leaders in steals/blocks has the ability to spread the floor, and will likely improve much in the next 2 years
We also need a G/F that has the ability to defend/block shots that CA does not offer at SF, so we need to make up for that in other positions and he would fit in with Adektenkmpo

Tim Hardawy JR can flat out shoot and score, while MCW is the franchise of the team while Wroten needs the ball in his hands to be a productive player
With Tim Hardaway JR and their stash in Dario Saric Philly can have a lineup of

MCW
Tim Hardaway JR
Saric
Noel
Embid

ALL of these players will be locked in rookie contracts, while they can concentrate on the recovery and development of their young high ceiling talents
They are planning to tank till at least 2017, while adding as many assets as they can in the mean time, when their young talents show some promise, by 2017 they will the ability to sign/trade for 3 ALL STAR's in the near max to pair with their young talented core

Wroten has great size and speed/quickness/athleticism/strength, and could play both PG and SG
He is one of the leaders in the NBA in points *at about 20pts*, steals, getting to the FT line, and rebounds for a PG, averaging
The combination of talents that Wroten and ability to penetrate/finish with contact is very comparable to ALL STARs like

John Wall
James Harden
Ginobili (a young one)
Lance Stephenson
Tyreke Evans

He has to work on his shooting for more consistency but somewhere down the line Philly likely will have to choose between MCW or Wroten as both players needs the ball in their hands to be effective and are not the best shooters, while Tim Hardawy JR is the opposite, with Embid in the post, MCW having a great size advantage, Noel's athleticism/length, they need shooters to spread the floor to operate with good floor spacing

So he can play with Calderon and Calderon has the ability to mentor him in to being a better facilitator and shooter

Dagger wrote:Or..........we could give a young player time to develop his game while learning a new system underneath a new coach, instead of thrusting every young guy out the door the moment they don't look like an all-star in their second season.

This......Wasn't just a week ago when Briggs suggested starting THJ and giving him 30+ minutes a night? The moment we trade him away and he has decent week of ball, we will complain that we lack patience....

H1AND1 wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:I am not saying Hardaway is Kobe, but judging by how irrational some of you are, you probably would want to trade Kobe as well when he was in his second year in the league. The kid is suffering just like all other young players in his second season in the league, which requires for this organization to be patient with him.

Bryant averaged 15/3/2 with .9 steals a game his second season which was a marked improvement over his rookie campaign. Hardaway, with known weaknesses in defense, rebounding, and basically every category except shooting 3's has shown not 1 iota of improvement in any category and has regressed in some of them including scoring (which by the way is nuts to think he could actually rebound LESS than last season).

While I don't advocate giving up on the kid so soon it certainly DOES NOT LOOK GOOD that he is regressing like this. It's a terrible sign. That is something that can't be ignored so if someone came knocking with a trade you'd have to think about it.

It has only been 9 games so far this season, through which he played very well in at least two of the nine games when he gets consistent minutes. The kid has been inconsistent, because he received inconsistent minutes from his coach; One day he is the starter, the next game he doesn't see the court due to "alleged" matchup issues. Fisher is a rookie coach who is learning on the fly; as a result is hurting Tim's development.

The problem is coaching and Tim's inability to take it upon himself to use the same energy he uses to easily shoot the ball to go after rebounds and defend. He has all of the abilities in the world to be a special player, but lacks the initiative to use his talents to do other things to help his team. He always park behind the three point line instead of putting himself in motion a la RAY ALLEN.

Furthermore, once the ball is released, he is often backpedaling instead of using his agility and quickness to attack the basket for rebounds. his issues are nothing that a good coach can't correct. He also needs good veteran leadership around him to guide him as a player. Something we don't have here in NY.

Give Tim time and good coaching, he will be fine.

BRIGGS wrote:I don't like this backwards projectile that I'm seeing I expected more of an all around game. I would take nothing less than a 2015 first rounder

And because other teams may see what

You see they won't give you anything but a couple second rounders

He looked better under Woodson which is an

Indictment on Fisher, as this offense[triangle]

Is tailor made for THJR

I find it ironic THJR was Fisher's primary gun

In Preseason and he delivered but once he

Came around all these veteran player

Fisher is selling his soul like most coaches do

To them and caves in to the pressure to play vets

F500ONE wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I don't like this backwards projectile that I'm seeing I expected more of an all around game. I would take nothing less than a 2015 first rounder

And because other teams may see what

You see they won't give you anything but a couple second rounders

He looked better under Woodson which is an

Indictment on Fisher, as this offense[triangle]

Is tailor made for THJR

I find it ironic THJR was Fisher's primary gun

In Preseason and he delivered but once he

Came around all these veteran player

Fisher is selling his soul like most coaches do

To them and caves in to the pressure to play vets

Or, maybe it's the more obvious explanation: That Hardaway has played badly and hasn't earned more time. He literally had 1 rebound over the course of a couple games for example.

Him playing badly as a function of the "vets" and bad coaching seems like an overwrought way to fit it into your narrative of Knicks=Bad, Phil=Fraud, Melo=Horrible Player. and hey I agree with some of your opinions and assertions but in the case of Hardaway I think it's more simple: He is a project and not as far along as a lot of people seem to have thought.

H1AND1 wrote:

F500ONE wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:I don't like this backwards projectile that I'm seeing I expected more of an all around game. I would take nothing less than a 2015 first rounder

And because other teams may see what

You see they won't give you anything but a couple second rounders

He looked better under Woodson which is an

Indictment on Fisher, as this offense[triangle]

Is tailor made for THJR

I find it ironic THJR was Fisher's primary gun

In Preseason and he delivered but once he

Came around all these veteran player

Fisher is selling his soul like most coaches do

To them and caves in to the pressure to play vets

Or, maybe it's the more obvious explanation: That Hardaway has played badly and hasn't earned more time. He literally had 1 rebound over the course of a couple games for example.

Him playing badly as a function of the "vets" and bad coaching seems like an overwrought way to fit it into your narrative of Knicks=Bad, Phil=Fraud, Melo=Horrible Player. and hey I agree with some of your opinions and assertions but in the case of Hardaway I think it's more simple: He is a project and not as far along as a lot of people seem to have thought.

Here is an example of good leadership: Lebron calling a meeting with his teammates during the losing streak to tell them what they were doing wrong as a team. To highlight his points, he used the media to single out certain guys who were playing selfish basketball. That is leadership. During our 7 games losing streak, no one in our team has called a team meeting to iron out things amongst them to help better the outcome. Guys like THJ and others are slumping, not once you hear anyone within this team say anything about go out and grab rebounds or set picks while guys are in a slump. That is a clear sign of a lack of leadership. There is no better way to express it.

BRIGGS wrote:I don't like this backwards projectile that I'm seeing I expected more of an all around game. I would take nothing less than a 2015 first rounder

Tim Jr is a above decent player with potential, where I think THardaway jr problem is here in NBA he is playing agains lots and lots
of good NBA players some not elite like LBJ & K.Durant, but the 2nd level or 3rd -4th level talent he goes against has so many other
skills to their primary game which Hardaway doesn't have OR HE DOESNT GET IT As yet !

Unless he spends time more on passing, going to basket .. & especially defending (team and man to man) and even rebounding for his
height he gonna be lost on any NBA team, he's in awe of what others can do, beside scoring and he isn't focused on any other area
than his Jumper going down (like his dad Tim Snr.)

Tim Snr. passed and was top as_sist leader, and even pressured PG played when he stepped it up. Tim Snr. can rebound sometimes
decent for his lacking height.

There is not 1 single area of hoops that Tim Jr has shown OR put a stamp on other than his outside shooting which is avg. - mediocre
at best this season, he worries much too much bout playing time and what's wrong with his J' rather than impressing NBA & nyk coaches
in other things he can do to help team play winning style. Don't know whom is talking to this kid OR working with him & I aint sure
at this stage of season he'd have same NBA demand for trades.

If a NBA team called about Hardaway Knicks would get ripped off in trade based on lack or results & output much different from
Tim Jr. last rookie season..

Tim is stuck with NY and Knicks are stuck with him. Tim gotta pick up his overall game I am a fan of Tim jr but very disappointed
since he got some opportunity here to play with guys out and Knicks in dire need of help production. He's done not a damn thing to give
fans feeling he knows what's going on at court end & making plays, clueless.

Tim has guys whom look like on court half/his talent or height or slower whom are buss'ing Hardway As_s each time out