Knicks · Jimmy Butler (page 1)

Knicks1969 wrote:Which one is taller? I believe Jimmy is a legit 6'8" while Shump is only 6'4"

Butler is taller but if Shump was wearing the same shoes as Butler he would be 6'6(Butler 6.6 w/shoes). Shump has the lomger wingspan but shorter reach and higher vert.

Overall Butler is the better player but I think Shumpert would be nearly the same defensive player if taught by Thibs. Offensively they are both risks with Butler having a better track record dating back to college.

Like he's rapidly becoming an incredible player

knickknack wrote:I dont think the gap is big enough between the two players to warrant letting shump go and spending more on butler, butler scores more but that's not a big need on our team. plus I'm not familiar enough with Butler to know whether he can guard PG's which is a major need of this deal that shump helps with.

Butler can guard 1-3. He's a great defender.

knickknack wrote:I dont think the gap is big enough between the two players to warrant letting shump go and spending more on butler, butler scores more but that's not a big need on our team. plus I'm not familiar enough with Butler to know whether he can guard PG's which is a major need of this deal that shump helps with.

Butler is an elite defender, Shump is an elite defender pretender- basically Butler is the player we all hope/hoped Shump would become, but likely never will by a large margin.

knickknack wrote:I dont think the gap is big enough between the two players to warrant letting shump go and spending more on butler, butler scores more but that's not a big need on our team. plus I'm not familiar enough with Butler to know whether he can guard PG's which is a major need of this deal that shump helps with.

Dude if we don't pay Shump someone else will

If he has a good year, Shump will price himself out of here

Paying Shump anything more than $5mil/yr is absurd

I don't even want him at $5mil

smackeddog wrote:

knickknack wrote:I dont think the gap is big enough between the two players to warrant letting shump go and spending more on butler, butler scores more but that's not a big need on our team. plus I'm not familiar enough with Butler to know whether he can guard PG's which is a major need of this deal that shump helps with.

Butler is an elite defender, Shump is an elite defender pretender- basically Butler is the player we all hope/hoped Shump would become, but likely never will by a large margin.

Butler could tear his ACL in both knees

And Shumpert still wouldn't be better than him

Nice to see some objectivity here

I think we all know we're pipe dreaming

But at least we're PDing on the right player

smackeddog wrote:

knickknack wrote:I dont think the gap is big enough between the two players to warrant letting shump go and spending more on butler, butler scores more but that's not a big need on our team. plus I'm not familiar enough with Butler to know whether he can guard PG's which is a major need of this deal that shump helps with.

Butler is an elite defender, Shump is an elite defender pretender- basically Butler is the player we all hope/hoped Shump would become, but likely never will by a large margin.

I'd imagine Shump would look the same in Thibs system. Butler is finding his way just like Shump. If Butler was on the knicks and put up a year like he did last year people would be ripping his game to shreds.

I know hindsight's always 20/20 although I did say it at the time -- too bad we couldn't have worked out something with Chicago for Melo. They wanted him. Something revolving around a pick or 2 and some of these players: Butler, Snell, Gibson, Mirotic, McDermott, E'Twaun Moore maybe...I didn't want to see Melo walk for nothing but I feel we could've gotten a halfway decent trade with Chicago to start over if we pressed it. I just have too many concerns with Melo -- his shoulders, his knee now and then will Phil ever be able to put together a good enough team around Melo while he's still at the top of his game? Don't wanna be a doom and gloomer but I really have my doubts..

Finestrg wrote:I doubt Chicago lets Butler go. Dude's really coming into his own right now. But say they went the same way as the Knicks are going with Shumpert -- Jimmy Butler could be a FA after next season. Question -- Jimmy Butler or Nicolas Batum? Who do you guys like better?

I know hindsight's always 20/20 although I did say it at the time -- too bad we couldn't have worked out something with Chicago for Melo. They wanted him. Something revolving around a pick or 2 and some of these players: Butler, Snell, Gibson, Mirotic, McDermott, E'Twaun Moore maybe...I didn't want to see Melo walk for nothing but I feel we could've gotten a halfway decent trade with Chicago to start over if we pressed it. I just have too many concerns with Melo -- his shoulders, his knee now and then will Phil ever be able to put together a good enough team around Melo while he's still at the top of his game? Don't wanna be a doom and gloomer but I really have my doubts..

Bulls didn't want to give up Jimmy Butler- they were offering Boozer, maybe Snell and their two rooks.

I like Batum too- wow haven't actually watched him play in years! At this point I just want two way players for a change, so any will do. The Bulls let Ben Gordon go (when he was very good), and they let Deng go (though they cashed him in for a pick). Bulls have a history of drawing a line in negotiations and not crossing it.

Finestrg wrote:I doubt Chicago lets Butler go. Dude's really coming into his own right now. But say they went the same way as the Knicks are going with Shumpert -- Jimmy Butler could be a FA after next season. Question -- Jimmy Butler or Nicolas Batum? Who do you guys like better?

I know hindsight's always 20/20 although I did say it at the time -- too bad we couldn't have worked out something with Chicago for Melo. They wanted him. Something revolving around a pick or 2 and some of these players: Butler, Snell, Gibson, Mirotic, McDermott, E'Twaun Moore maybe...I didn't want to see Melo walk for nothing but I feel we could've gotten a halfway decent trade with Chicago to start over if we pressed it. I just have too many concerns with Melo -- his shoulders, his knee now and then will Phil ever be able to put together a good enough team around Melo while he's still at the top of his game? Don't wanna be a doom and gloomer but I really have my doubts..

I think it's circumstantial with Butler and Batum. You can't go wrong with either guy but since we have Melo, I'd go with Batum because he can be something of a point-forward, play a little 4 because of his length and stretches the floor more effectively. But like I said, you can't go wrong with either.

And I still wonder what we could've done with the Bulls if we negotiated a sign and trade for Melo. My asking price would've been Butler, Mirotic, Boozer (for cap purposes) and both their 16th and 19th pick. I would've thrown in Iman Shumpert and Prigioni too, just to even out the value on both sides. Had the draft order remained the same, that means we would've gotten Gary Harris (aka Bradley Beal 2.0) and Jusuf Nurkic, who will be one of the best big men in the league in a few years. That front-court would've been monstrous with Butler-Mirotic-Nurkic.....it gives me shivers just to think about.

NardDogNation wrote:

Finestrg wrote:I doubt Chicago lets Butler go. Dude's really coming into his own right now. But say they went the same way as the Knicks are going with Shumpert -- Jimmy Butler could be a FA after next season. Question -- Jimmy Butler or Nicolas Batum? Who do you guys like better?

I know hindsight's always 20/20 although I did say it at the time -- too bad we couldn't have worked out something with Chicago for Melo. They wanted him. Something revolving around a pick or 2 and some of these players: Butler, Snell, Gibson, Mirotic, McDermott, E'Twaun Moore maybe...I didn't want to see Melo walk for nothing but I feel we could've gotten a halfway decent trade with Chicago to start over if we pressed it. I just have too many concerns with Melo -- his shoulders, his knee now and then will Phil ever be able to put together a good enough team around Melo while he's still at the top of his game? Don't wanna be a doom and gloomer but I really have my doubts..

I think it's circumstantial with Butler and Batum. You can't go wrong with either guy but since we have Melo, I'd go with Batum because he can be something of a point-forward, play a little 4 because of his length and stretches the floor more effectively. But like I said, you can't go wrong with either.

And I still wonder what we could've done with the Bulls if we negotiated a sign and trade for Melo. My asking price would've been Butler, Mirotic, Boozer (for cap purposes) and both their 16th and 19th pick. I would've thrown in Iman Shumpert and Prigioni too, just to even out the value on both sides. Had the draft order remained the same, that means we would've gotten Gary Harris (aka Bradley Beal 2.0) and Jusuf Nurkic, who will be one of the best big men in the league in a few years. That front-court would've been monstrous with Butler-Mirotic-Nurkic.....it gives me shivers just to think about.

The fact Phil let ego and maybe past history with Bulls

Get in the way of him exercising due diligence

Is about as wreckless and irresponsible as an exec can get

He should have made the Bulls talk just to see what they were willing

To put out there which would have placed them

At somewhat a disadvantage psychologically as other teams took note

Of names being leaked and whatnot, Oh and it would have

Also been another vehicle which to establish Melo's market value

If Bulls offer nothing of value or close to what we want

Then Melo isn't that valuable to them and therefore shouldn't

Have been that valuable to us, look no further than what

We did to acquire Melo from Denver, we gave them everything they asked for

I thought Phil was the master of this mindfulness ish

NardDogNation wrote:

Finestrg wrote:I doubt Chicago lets Butler go. Dude's really coming into his own right now. But say they went the same way as the Knicks are going with Shumpert -- Jimmy Butler could be a FA after next season. Question -- Jimmy Butler or Nicolas Batum? Who do you guys like better?

I know hindsight's always 20/20 although I did say it at the time -- too bad we couldn't have worked out something with Chicago for Melo. They wanted him. Something revolving around a pick or 2 and some of these players: Butler, Snell, Gibson, Mirotic, McDermott, E'Twaun Moore maybe...I didn't want to see Melo walk for nothing but I feel we could've gotten a halfway decent trade with Chicago to start over if we pressed it. I just have too many concerns with Melo -- his shoulders, his knee now and then will Phil ever be able to put together a good enough team around Melo while he's still at the top of his game? Don't wanna be a doom and gloomer but I really have my doubts..

I think it's circumstantial with Butler and Batum. You can't go wrong with either guy but since we have Melo, I'd go with Batum because he can be something of a point-forward, play a little 4 because of his length and stretches the floor more effectively. But like I said, you can't go wrong with either.

And I still wonder what we could've done with the Bulls if we negotiated a sign and trade for Melo. My asking price would've been Butler, Mirotic, Boozer (for cap purposes) and both their 16th and 19th pick. I would've thrown in Iman Shumpert and Prigioni too, just to even out the value on both sides. Had the draft order remained the same, that means we would've gotten Gary Harris (aka Bradley Beal 2.0) and Jusuf Nurkic, who will be one of the best big men in the league in a few years. That front-court would've been monstrous with Butler-Mirotic-Nurkic.....it gives me shivers just to think about.

Exactly. Me too. Could've gone with the full rebuild and started over from scratch. Not even from scratch -- a lot of these guys are good players, players we would've wanted to keep around and rebuild with...You know, if Melo holds up physically through the deadline, we still might be able to move him to a team like Chicago. Obviously, they would've preferred Melo as a straight up FA signing at the time -- but come on, they knew damn well going in that $80mm or whatever they we offering wasn't gonna get it done. You know they had to have been thinking S&T all along in the back of their minds. Now if so, they were probably prepared to take him on at his current salary--that would've been part of the deal...I just wonder how hard a S&T was explored (I don't remember reading any concrete dialogue between Phil & Chicago, just a lot of speculation by all of us on what it would OK..take). Tell you what, right now Chicago's 8-4 sitting atop the Central. If Chicago's right there come February, Rose is healthy, etc., maybe we can revisit something like this with them. We might still have a chance to hit the re-do button. I like all of the Chicago players we're discussing -- I even like this E'Twaun Moore -- I think this kid has a chance to be a pretty darn good lead guard in the NBA. He's like a bigger (6'4") more skilled, better version of Toney Douglas--better ball-handler, better shooter/scorer. Wouldn't be terrible. The beauty of it is that we'd get a chance to rebuild without any one player causing such a salary cap hindrance. I fear Melo's contract is quickly gonna achieve albatross status. Seeing him hobble around with the gimpy knee the other night--I really question how long he'll remain healthy and in top form. I feel like the window's slowly closing before our very eyes...When you think about it, dealing him off by the deadline and starting over might be the way to go. Chicago will undoubtedly still be a top team by the deadline. A very good team, a 50+ win team probably, but not really a championship team. They're not quite there imho...Melo could be exactly what they need. He may make even more sense to them by the deadline in a trade than he did this past off-season as a FA. Have to look over the Bulls' team salary -- this might be much more difficult to pull off now that they don't have Boozer around to include in a deal. That's the only thing. We may have missed our big opportunity with them. We'll see.. If not the Bulls, then who? Houston? Portland? New Orleans?

NardDogNation wrote:

Finestrg wrote:I doubt Chicago lets Butler go. Dude's really coming into his own right now. But say they went the same way as the Knicks are going with Shumpert -- Jimmy Butler could be a FA after next season. Question -- Jimmy Butler or Nicolas Batum? Who do you guys like better?

I know hindsight's always 20/20 although I did say it at the time -- too bad we couldn't have worked out something with Chicago for Melo. They wanted him. Something revolving around a pick or 2 and some of these players: Butler, Snell, Gibson, Mirotic, McDermott, E'Twaun Moore maybe...I didn't want to see Melo walk for nothing but I feel we could've gotten a halfway decent trade with Chicago to start over if we pressed it. I just have too many concerns with Melo -- his shoulders, his knee now and then will Phil ever be able to put together a good enough team around Melo while he's still at the top of his game? Don't wanna be a doom and gloomer but I really have my doubts..

I think it's circumstantial with Butler and Batum. You can't go wrong with either guy but since we have Melo, I'd go with Batum because he can be something of a point-forward, play a little 4 because of his length and stretches the floor more effectively. But like I said, you can't go wrong with either.

And I still wonder what we could've done with the Bulls if we negotiated a sign and trade for Melo. My asking price would've been Butler, Mirotic, Boozer (for cap purposes) and both their 16th and 19th pick. I would've thrown in Iman Shumpert and Prigioni too, just to even out the value on both sides. Had the draft order remained the same, that means we would've gotten Gary Harris (aka Bradley Beal 2.0) and Jusuf Nurkic, who will be one of the best big men in the league in a few years. That front-court would've been monstrous with Butler-Mirotic-Nurkic.....it gives me shivers just to think about.

I would have preferred a rebuild, but I get why we didn't go that route- mainly we don't have our 2016 pick. It would have been hard to get any decent player to sign with us in 2015 with nothing major on the roster (Melo at least makes it a possibility that Gasol, Butler, etc etc might be interested in signing), then we would have had to endure yet another losing season but with no pick, then we would have had to suck again (for the fourth straight year) until we got a top pick in 2017, then we would likely suck again to get another pick in 2018.

F500ONE wrote:

NardDogNation wrote:

Finestrg wrote:I doubt Chicago lets Butler go. Dude's really coming into his own right now. But say they went the same way as the Knicks are going with Shumpert -- Jimmy Butler could be a FA after next season. Question -- Jimmy Butler or Nicolas Batum? Who do you guys like better?

I know hindsight's always 20/20 although I did say it at the time -- too bad we couldn't have worked out something with Chicago for Melo. They wanted him. Something revolving around a pick or 2 and some of these players: Butler, Snell, Gibson, Mirotic, McDermott, E'Twaun Moore maybe...I didn't want to see Melo walk for nothing but I feel we could've gotten a halfway decent trade with Chicago to start over if we pressed it. I just have too many concerns with Melo -- his shoulders, his knee now and then will Phil ever be able to put together a good enough team around Melo while he's still at the top of his game? Don't wanna be a doom and gloomer but I really have my doubts..

I think it's circumstantial with Butler and Batum. You can't go wrong with either guy but since we have Melo, I'd go with Batum because he can be something of a point-forward, play a little 4 because of his length and stretches the floor more effectively. But like I said, you can't go wrong with either.

And I still wonder what we could've done with the Bulls if we negotiated a sign and trade for Melo. My asking price would've been Butler, Mirotic, Boozer (for cap purposes) and both their 16th and 19th pick. I would've thrown in Iman Shumpert and Prigioni too, just to even out the value on both sides. Had the draft order remained the same, that means we would've gotten Gary Harris (aka Bradley Beal 2.0) and Jusuf Nurkic, who will be one of the best big men in the league in a few years. That front-court would've been monstrous with Butler-Mirotic-Nurkic.....it gives me shivers just to think about.

The fact Phil let ego and maybe past history with Bulls

Get in the way of him exercising due diligence

Is about as wreckless and irresponsible as an exec can get

He should have made the Bulls talk just to see what they were willing

To put out there which would have placed them

At somewhat a disadvantage psychologically as other teams took note

Of names being leaked and whatnot, Oh and it would have

Also been another vehicle which to establish Melo's market value

If Bulls offer nothing of value or close to what we want

Then Melo isn't that valuable to them and therefore shouldn't

Have been that valuable to us, look no further than what

We did to acquire Melo from Denver, we gave them everything they asked for

I thought Phil was the master of this mindfulness ish

There are plenty of cons to that scenario though. For one, you run the risk of alienating Melo and leave him disenchanted with the idea of re-signing while receiving nothing in return. And if you think it'd be better for him to walk, I think you are nuts. I was no fan of the money he got but irrespective of it, he is a MAJOR trade asset and the only one we have that can be considered an asset (aside from THJr). Fortunately for us, the cap is expected to increase dramatically, which may turn Melo into a bargain. So who knows. But one thing I can't ration-away is Melo's injury history, which is alarming. Like you, I don't see Melo holding up physically, which is a major reason I want us to draft a franchise player ASAP to alleviate Melo's load and take us into the post-Melo era. If we don't, we'll be back to ground zero in 2-3 seasons with Phil throwing desperate Hail Mary's on a fool's errand.