Knicks · If Melo is such an elite scorer/player/talent, how come we got 5 wins? (page 2)

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

Si

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Nalod wrote:

franco12 wrote:Was Felton and Chandler & Woodson that great of a supporting cast?

I keep saying - but if Melo really is this All Star caliber player, even with a collection of misfits, we should be better.

If Melo is so great, who is holding him back? Who is sabotaging him from winning us a few more games?

Is Fisher this bad of a coach? I mean, if Melo really is this great, then you should be able to pull any coach- someone off the street even- and we would win more than 5 games.

If you believe Melo is this great player, deserving of his massive contract, explain how we are so bad.

Its like a call for haters to circle jerk!

They need a call?

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Agreed, I mean if you had a choice between melo and durant 99% of people would be picking durant with good reason

Bonn1997 wrote:You're right. It doesn't add up. Melo is simply the highest PPG player on the team and so he'll get way too much credit for our wins and way too much blame for our losses. He doesn't actually have a big impact on team's W-L records. If you track how his teams do season to season, it's easy to spot the players whose arrivals and departures actually did correspond to changes in the W-L records. His arrival and departure doesn't really impact his teams much though.

that's because he's a zero-sum player. 124 million for a zero-sum player.

arkrud wrote:It's simple - put any other max player in his place or 2-3 solid 2-way players for the same salary and the result will be much better.
Basically it is better on 23-25 NBA teams at minimum.
But to be fair it is not Melo fault by any stretch.
I would say it makes him a good businessman and his agents team a great business.
May be it is not so hard to be that great with so many idiotic organizations in NBA but still some good peace of work.
He is celeb and entertainer also. Even his stupid statements makes him money by putting him in more spotlights.
Great guy I would never want on my organization of any kind.

I don't think this is true. Carmelo was the main cog on a 54 win team that went to round 2 and mightve went further if it stayed healthy. Why do people play melo and Amare? It doesnt make sense

Why do we sck?

Absolute POROUS inefficient guard play from both spots--we have no consistent guards.
We have received very little consistency from the C position
Out overall atleast level has to be below 25 out of 30.
New coach who has been inconsistent.

Last night was it Melo leaving 9 Dallas players wide open for three every time down? No Melo went for 26-5-5. Its the other sckers who cant play. I know its convenient to go to the head guy--but the had guy in this case is Phil who put this team and coach on the floor.

Phil couldve kept Chandler and brought in a coach with more experience--heck he couldve just hired Rambus. We had 2 draft picks and we have received nothing from it. So right now its on Phil to make smart moves from here on in--not on Melo---blaming Melo is excuse.

franco12 wrote:Was Felton and Chandler & Woodson that great of a supporting cast?

I keep saying - but if Melo really is this All Star caliber player, even with a collection of misfits, we should be better.

If Melo is so great, who is holding him back? Who is sabotaging him from winning us a few more games?

Is Fisher this bad of a coach? I mean, if Melo really is this great, then you should be able to pull any coach- someone off the street even- and we would win more than 5 games.

If you believe Melo is this great player, deserving of his massive contract, explain how we are so bad.

So is the problem Melo and building around or does the team just stink?

I will say we wont have to wait much longer for some of Melo's haters to get their answers such as:

"Nobody wants to play with MElo"
When was the last time Melo played on a team that had cap space to lure a top FA? This will be the first.... so lets see

"Melo doesnt make guys around him better"
Im not sure what the expectation is here

"Melo cant share the ball"
Who are the best teammates he's ever had?
Post Phili Iverson: Melo had his best season shooting the ball next to AI. In fact the only time his career Melo didnt take the most shots on his team was also his most EFF%
Billups: That team did go to the WCF
Tyson Chandler: won a DPOY w/ Melo, team won 54 games

Who am I missing?

You guys who watch the games.... what do you see? When national TV covers the Knicks what do they say? Knicks are Melo and nothing else.

If Melo signed with the Lakers tell us what excites you about the Knicks? Who are the players on this roster your thinking are a part of a nice future? I dont see a single one right now, but the expectation is Melo should be elevating the level of play of guys who are questionable NBA talent at this point?

These are simple questions folks gloss over because its easier to make stuff up and assign blame.

The reason the Knicks are terrible is because the front office has been terrible. Melo has been pretty much status quo. He's a top talent with holes in game that look even worse than they are when he's not surrounded by players who cover those.

We have seen this before with other top players as well. Paul Pierce has some bad losing seasons under his belt. So does Ray Allen. Kevin Garnett quickly went from the Conf finals to back to back 30 win seasons with Sota and I think everyone hear would agree he's a better player than Melo. What happened? Put those 3 together they win a title.

We need to build a team. Not surround an imperfect player with subpar talent then cry when that player's faults (and EVERYONE knows what those are) get exposed.

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Wow! 8 more wins! That would ensure we get a worse lottery pick and accomplish nothing else. Sign me up! Those stats are flawed anyways- they don't take into account what would actually happen to Durant's morale, effort etc in this kind of perpetual losing ineptitude environment.

More a mirage of what fans think is palpable

Somehow he managed to reformat a bunch of human brains, with nothing on them

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Agreed, I mean if you had a choice between melo and durant 99% of people would be picking durant with good reason

And that's where everyone goes wrong- they always think we have the choice of Lebron, Durant or Melo. We don't- those guys didn't wan to come here. I wanted us to trade Melo to the Bulls instead of singing him to a whopping contract, but that way is hardly guaranteed success- you can just as easily end up with years of equal losing if you draft wrongly.

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Agreed, I mean if you had a choice between melo and durant 99% of people would be picking durant with good reason

The more pertinent question though is if you had a choice between Melo and $124 mil in cap space, what do you pick? A lot of people here thought "losing him for nothing" would be a disaster but the real disaster was making him the highest paid player on the planet (and then throwing in a no-trade clause).

You say no good FAs are coming to a bad team, but cry about Melo's cap hold.

Pat Riley coached the Heat to a 15-67 record. Wade played 51 games and put up 25ppg, 7 assits and 4 rebs in 51 games. The team stunk it happens

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Agreed, I mean if you had a choice between melo and durant 99% of people would be picking durant with good reason

The more pertinent question though is if you had a choice between Melo and $124 mil in cap space, what do you pick? A lot of people here thought "losing him for nothing" would be a disaster but the real disaster was making him the highest paid player on the planet (and then throwing in a no-trade clause).

your good at working both sides of that arguement and never providing good examples of what you would do with that cap space.

You say no good FAs are coming to a bad team, but cry about Melo's cap hold.

Pat Riley coached the Heat to a 15-67 record. Wade played 51 games and put up 25ppg, 7 assits and 4 rebs in 51 games. The team stunk it happens

Exaclty- Bonn1997 all you're doing these days is complaining about every move. Fine, I get the frustration, but you never say properly what you would do. Go on, give us an idea of the players you'd draft and sign!

BRIGGS wrote:

arkrud wrote:It's simple - put any other max player in his place or 2-3 solid 2-way players for the same salary and the result will be much better.
Basically it is better on 23-25 NBA teams at minimum.
But to be fair it is not Melo fault by any stretch.
I would say it makes him a good businessman and his agents team a great business.
May be it is not so hard to be that great with so many idiotic organizations in NBA but still some good peace of work.
He is celeb and entertainer also. Even his stupid statements makes him money by putting him in more spotlights.
Great guy I would never want on my organization of any kind.

I don't think this is true. Carmelo was the main cog on a 54 win team that went to round 2 and mightve went further if it stayed healthy. Why do people play melo and Amare? It doesnt make sense

Why do we sck?

Absolute POROUS inefficient guard play from both spots--we have no consistent guards.
We have received very little consistency from the C position
Out overall atleast level has to be below 25 out of 30.
New coach who has been inconsistent.

Last night was it Melo leaving 9 Dallas players wide open for three every time down? No Melo went for 26-5-5. Its the other sckers who cant play. I know its convenient to go to the head guy--but the had guy in this case is Phil who put this team and coach on the floor.

Phil couldve kept Chandler and brought in a coach with more experience--heck he couldve just hired Rambus. We had 2 draft picks and we have received nothing from it. So right now its on Phil to make smart moves from here on in--not on Melo---blaming Melo is excuse.

Melo is a flawed player. A dumb jock. He wants to get paid. All these are true. A zero sum player? Thats coming from a guy who got kicked off RealGMs forums for essentially making up lies about MElo until the mods got fed up and sent him packing. That takes real effort to accomplish.

This is a very bad team devoid of talent. Period.

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Was Felton and Chandler & Woodson that great of a supporting cast?

I keep saying - but if Melo really is this All Star caliber player, even with a collection of misfits, we should be better.

If Melo is so great, who is holding him back? Who is sabotaging him from winning us a few more games?

Is Fisher this bad of a coach? I mean, if Melo really is this great, then you should be able to pull any coach- someone off the street even- and we would win more than 5 games.

If you believe Melo is this great player, deserving of his massive contract, explain how we are so bad.

This is a fair question but I would ask the opposite. 2 years ago Knicks won 54 games and Melo was 3rd in MVP voting. What is Melo doing differently than he did that year? Ironically I think that was Melo's best year in terms of win shares and he also led the league in usage.

So is the problem Melo and building around or does the team just stink?

We've actually never really attempted to build around Melo in his tenure with the Knicks. We basically just try to plug random scraps in and play since we caped ourselves out with the Amare deal and overpaying Tyson. Would have made more sense to eat Melo's first year here rather than set ourselves back another 3-4 years, but that is not what management chose to do.

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Wow! 8 more wins! That would ensure we get a worse lottery pick and accomplish nothing else. Sign me up! Those stats are flawed anyways- they don't take into account what would actually happen to Durant's morale, effort etc in this kind of perpetual losing ineptitude environment.

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Wow! 8 more wins! That would ensure we get a worse lottery pick and accomplish nothing else. Sign me up! Those stats are flawed anyways- they don't take into account what would actually happen to Durant's morale, effort etc in this kind of perpetual losing ineptitude environment.

SwishAndDish13 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

franco12 wrote:Was Felton and Chandler & Woodson that great of a supporting cast?

I keep saying - but if Melo really is this All Star caliber player, even with a collection of misfits, we should be better.

If Melo is so great, who is holding him back? Who is sabotaging him from winning us a few more games?

Is Fisher this bad of a coach? I mean, if Melo really is this great, then you should be able to pull any coach- someone off the street even- and we would win more than 5 games.

If you believe Melo is this great player, deserving of his massive contract, explain how we are so bad.

This is a fair question but I would ask the opposite. 2 years ago Knicks won 54 games and Melo was 3rd in MVP voting. What is Melo doing differently than he did that year? Ironically I think that was Melo's best year in terms of win shares and he also led the league in usage.

So is the problem Melo and building around or does the team just stink?

We've actually never really attempted to build around Melo in his tenure with the Knicks. We basically just try to plug random scraps in and play since we caped ourselves out with the Amare deal and overpaying Tyson. Would have made more sense to eat Melo's first year here rather than set ourselves back another 3-4 years, but that is not what management chose to do.

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Agreed, I mean if you had a choice between melo and durant 99% of people would be picking durant with good reason

The more pertinent question though is if you had a choice between Melo and $124 mil in cap space, what do you pick? A lot of people here thought "losing him for nothing" would be a disaster but the real disaster was making him the highest paid player on the planet (and then throwing in a no-trade clause).

your good at working both sides of that arguement and never providing good examples of what you would do with that cap space.

You say no good FAs are coming to a bad team, but cry about Melo's cap hold.

Pat Riley coached the Heat to a 15-67 record. Wade played 51 games and put up 25ppg, 7 assits and 4 rebs in 51 games. The team stunk it happens

Exaclty- Bonn1997 all you're doing these days is complaining about every move. Fine, I get the frustration, but you never say properly what you would do. Go on, give us an idea of the players you'd draft and sign!

fishmike wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Wow! 8 more wins! That would ensure we get a worse lottery pick and accomplish nothing else. Sign me up! Those stats are flawed anyways- they don't take into account what would actually happen to Durant's morale, effort etc in this kind of perpetual losing ineptitude environment.

exactly. Durant is a better player. Its not debatable. Nice to see the advanced stat heads show us even with one of the best players on the planet this is still a 25 win team. Thanks for that.

That 8 win difference is weighted

Considering Durant plays the majority of his games out West

So it's probably like another 4-5gm difference in Durants favor

Playing here in the East

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Wow! 8 more wins! That would ensure we get a worse lottery pick and accomplish nothing else. Sign me up! Those stats are flawed anyways- they don't take into account what would actually happen to Durant's morale, effort etc in this kind of perpetual losing ineptitude environment.

I'd MUCH rather have a lower lottery pick and Durant instead of Melo. I think any sane person would.

Call me insane. I would rather Melo and Blake, Harden or Steph Curry than have Durant and Jordan Hill, Brandond Jennings or Terrance Williams.

But hey.... thats just me

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:

fishmike wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Replace Melo with Durant- how many more games do we win? yeah, exactly. We're a bad team that doesn't defend well or rebound- Melo is mainly a scorer, but if the team isn't defend, rebounding or shooting well, then it renders his contribution pretty much irrelevant.

The nice thing is we have stats that can answer this question (not perfectly but better than any eyeball assessment). Over the past 3 years, Durant has contributed about 49 win shares and Melo 26. So that's about 8 more wins a season with Durant - about 100 winning percentage points. If Melo continues to play at this current level though he'll be below what I cited during that 3 year stretch and the difference will be larger.

Agreed, I mean if you had a choice between melo and durant 99% of people would be picking durant with good reason

The more pertinent question though is if you had a choice between Melo and $124 mil in cap space, what do you pick? A lot of people here thought "losing him for nothing" would be a disaster but the real disaster was making him the highest paid player on the planet (and then throwing in a no-trade clause).

your good at working both sides of that arguement and never providing good examples of what you would do with that cap space.

You say no good FAs are coming to a bad team, but cry about Melo's cap hold.

Pat Riley coached the Heat to a 15-67 record. Wade played 51 games and put up 25ppg, 7 assits and 4 rebs in 51 games. The team stunk it happens

Exaclty- Bonn1997 all you're doing these days is complaining about every move. Fine, I get the frustration, but you never say properly what you would do. Go on, give us an idea of the players you'd draft and sign!

I've done this hundreds of times. I've listed specifically players I'd trade and look to acquire. I even listed several Melo trades I'd try to do just a few days ago. Where have you been?

I'm not stalking you Bonn1997- I've no idea where you've posted the list of realistic free agents you'd target (I seem to recall the Melo trades)- I suspect you haven't! ha!