Knicks · So Barkley says Free Agents won't wanna come to NY? Dragic disagrees (page 2)

Dragic is the perfect fit for the triangle, he is one of my favourite point guards in the NBA i have no idea how he did not become an all star he practically carried the suns

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:In terms of Dragic and what he was doing, we all understand that FA's will speak positively and leave doors open but he went beyond that and that is the point of the thread. He actually gave very cogent reasons for why he didn't agree with Barkley. He didn't have to go as far in making the case for NY as he did. IMO it's an example of how FA's think about things. Just cuz Barkley disses Phil and his knowledge of the game doesn't mean that all players feel the same as him. Some are smart enough to respect Phil's knowledge of the game.

Most of the FA's haven't won a title and likely would be very interested to learn from a man with MANY titles under his belt. It's not like this is Memphis or Minnesota. Why not take advantage of the NY spotlight and other opportunities? As for the record Dragic covered that and wasn't phased by the poor record. He instead suggested that teams can make quick turn arounds in the NBA and he's right about that. A couple of good FA signings, maybe a trade and a good draft and this team could look a lot different. Phil is gonna have a lot of roster spots open and some money to spend. Things can change quite a bit.

Barkley never dissed Phil's knowledge of the game...He said players won't take less because it's Phil Jackson..Players wont leave 30/40/50 mil on the table because of Phil Jackson, which is true..

This just underscores what I feel about Barkley not really respecting Phil. When I say knowledge of the game i'm not talking only X's and O's but the GM aspect of the game, if I didn't make that clear.

Not every Free Agent is going to be in the situation where they'll have to "Leave 30 mil on the table". Guys like Dragic, Monroe and maybe Reggie Jackson are guys who might be let go by their current team if another team gives them a Max offer. It's not assured that all FA's current teams will want to match. So it's not about a FA leaving money on the table in every case.

Jimmy Butler was stating quite confidently that he was gonna be staying in Chicago, but he doesn't know if Chicago would match a Max contract for him. Every one of these teams has a number in their minds for what they want to pay a given player based not just on market value but the rest of their team and cap structure. NY should have a chance with some of these players who might price themselves out of their current teams cap structure.

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:In terms of Dragic and what he was doing, we all understand that FA's will speak positively and leave doors open but he went beyond that and that is the point of the thread. He actually gave very cogent reasons for why he didn't agree with Barkley. He didn't have to go as far in making the case for NY as he did. IMO it's an example of how FA's think about things. Just cuz Barkley disses Phil and his knowledge of the game doesn't mean that all players feel the same as him. Some are smart enough to respect Phil's knowledge of the game.

Most of the FA's haven't won a title and likely would be very interested to learn from a man with MANY titles under his belt. It's not like this is Memphis or Minnesota. Why not take advantage of the NY spotlight and other opportunities? As for the record Dragic covered that and wasn't phased by the poor record. He instead suggested that teams can make quick turn arounds in the NBA and he's right about that. A couple of good FA signings, maybe a trade and a good draft and this team could look a lot different. Phil is gonna have a lot of roster spots open and some money to spend. Things can change quite a bit.

Barkley never dissed Phil's knowledge of the game...He said players won't take less because it's Phil Jackson..Players wont leave 30/40/50 mil on the table because of Phil Jackson, which is true..

This just underscores what I feel about Barkley not really respecting Phil. When I say knowledge of the game i'm not talking only X's and O's but the GM aspect of the game, if I didn't make that clear.

Not every Free Agent is going to be in the situation where they'll have to "Leave 30 mil on the table". Guys like Dragic, Monroe and maybe Reggie Jackson are guys who might be let go by their current team if another team gives them a Max offer. It's not assured that all FA's current teams will want to match. So it's not about a FA leaving money on the table in every case.

Jimmy Butler was stating quite confidently that he was gonna be staying in Chicago, but he doesn't know if Chicago would match a Max contract for him. Every one of these teams has a number in their minds for what they want to pay a given player based not just on market value but the rest of their team and cap structure. NY should have a chance with some of these players who might price themselves out of their current teams cap structure.

But Barkely didn't say that either...I think Phil got upset Barkely was doing his usual Knick diss thing on national TV..Phil should have never went to twitter with it..Also who is going to offer max money to those guys(Dragic, Butler,Reggie Jackson and Monroe)???..I certainly hope we don't...

Dragzic is looking for the next big payday

Knicks1969 wrote:Dragzic is looking for the next big payday

He comes close to deserving it though, he played a big part of the suns great season last year(despite not making the playoffs), plus i can see him succeding in NY

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:In terms of Dragic and what he was doing, we all understand that FA's will speak positively and leave doors open but he went beyond that and that is the point of the thread. He actually gave very cogent reasons for why he didn't agree with Barkley. He didn't have to go as far in making the case for NY as he did. IMO it's an example of how FA's think about things. Just cuz Barkley disses Phil and his knowledge of the game doesn't mean that all players feel the same as him. Some are smart enough to respect Phil's knowledge of the game.

Most of the FA's haven't won a title and likely would be very interested to learn from a man with MANY titles under his belt. It's not like this is Memphis or Minnesota. Why not take advantage of the NY spotlight and other opportunities? As for the record Dragic covered that and wasn't phased by the poor record. He instead suggested that teams can make quick turn arounds in the NBA and he's right about that. A couple of good FA signings, maybe a trade and a good draft and this team could look a lot different. Phil is gonna have a lot of roster spots open and some money to spend. Things can change quite a bit.

Barkley never dissed Phil's knowledge of the game...He said players won't take less because it's Phil Jackson..Players wont leave 30/40/50 mil on the table because of Phil Jackson, which is true..

This just underscores what I feel about Barkley not really respecting Phil. When I say knowledge of the game i'm not talking only X's and O's but the GM aspect of the game, if I didn't make that clear.

Not every Free Agent is going to be in the situation where they'll have to "Leave 30 mil on the table". Guys like Dragic, Monroe and maybe Reggie Jackson are guys who might be let go by their current team if another team gives them a Max offer. It's not assured that all FA's current teams will want to match. So it's not about a FA leaving money on the table in every case.

Jimmy Butler was stating quite confidently that he was gonna be staying in Chicago, but he doesn't know if Chicago would match a Max contract for him. Every one of these teams has a number in their minds for what they want to pay a given player based not just on market value but the rest of their team and cap structure. NY should have a chance with some of these players who might price themselves out of their current teams cap structure.

But Barkely didn't say that either...I think Phil got upset Barkely was doing his usual Knick diss thing on national TV..Phil should have never went to twitter with it..Also who is going to offer max money to those guys(Dragic, Butler,Reggie Jackson and Monroe)???..I certainly hope we don't...

In actuality, last game against Chicago, and the game before against Cleveland Barkley has been very mockful of the "triangle", he has flat out said the players suck, he has blustered against theborganization, and his commentary isn't worth a crap because he never is fair with his points. Examples to the point in question are both Cleveland games. The both games instead of pointing out whtever part Knick defense (Wear in particular) played in Lebron's bad game, it was all about Lebron being out of whack.

The last game with Chicago, Barkley and the other schmutz, I can't remember who, were more interested in talking about why no one will come to the Knicks, what a laughing stock they are, even how now the triangle a gimmick, instead of giving some shine to Hardaway who really helped the Knicks keep it close for a while.

And I have to ask, and this is more a general media complaint, has anyone ever seen an offensive system ripped down so fast as to just LAST YEAR, people were begging to bring Phil and the triangle back to LA, now the triangle has become as Simmons says "old and antiquated"?

He just wants a super max contract with a no-trade clause. Don't let Phil and Dolan here this!

joec32033 wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:In terms of Dragic and what he was doing, we all understand that FA's will speak positively and leave doors open but he went beyond that and that is the point of the thread. He actually gave very cogent reasons for why he didn't agree with Barkley. He didn't have to go as far in making the case for NY as he did. IMO it's an example of how FA's think about things. Just cuz Barkley disses Phil and his knowledge of the game doesn't mean that all players feel the same as him. Some are smart enough to respect Phil's knowledge of the game.

Most of the FA's haven't won a title and likely would be very interested to learn from a man with MANY titles under his belt. It's not like this is Memphis or Minnesota. Why not take advantage of the NY spotlight and other opportunities? As for the record Dragic covered that and wasn't phased by the poor record. He instead suggested that teams can make quick turn arounds in the NBA and he's right about that. A couple of good FA signings, maybe a trade and a good draft and this team could look a lot different. Phil is gonna have a lot of roster spots open and some money to spend. Things can change quite a bit.

Barkley never dissed Phil's knowledge of the game...He said players won't take less because it's Phil Jackson..Players wont leave 30/40/50 mil on the table because of Phil Jackson, which is true..

This just underscores what I feel about Barkley not really respecting Phil. When I say knowledge of the game i'm not talking only X's and O's but the GM aspect of the game, if I didn't make that clear.

Not every Free Agent is going to be in the situation where they'll have to "Leave 30 mil on the table". Guys like Dragic, Monroe and maybe Reggie Jackson are guys who might be let go by their current team if another team gives them a Max offer. It's not assured that all FA's current teams will want to match. So it's not about a FA leaving money on the table in every case.

Jimmy Butler was stating quite confidently that he was gonna be staying in Chicago, but he doesn't know if Chicago would match a Max contract for him. Every one of these teams has a number in their minds for what they want to pay a given player based not just on market value but the rest of their team and cap structure. NY should have a chance with some of these players who might price themselves out of their current teams cap structure.

But Barkely didn't say that either...I think Phil got upset Barkely was doing his usual Knick diss thing on national TV..Phil should have never went to twitter with it..Also who is going to offer max money to those guys(Dragic, Butler,Reggie Jackson and Monroe)???..I certainly hope we don't...

In actuality, last game against Chicago, and the game before against Cleveland Barkley has been very mockful of the "triangle", he has flat out said the players suck, he has blustered against theborganization, and his commentary isn't worth a crap because he never is fair with his points. Examples to the point in question are both Cleveland games. The both games instead of pointing out whtever part Knick defense (Wear in particular) played in Lebron's bad game, it was all about Lebron being out of whack.

The last game with Chicago, Barkley and the other schmutz, I can't remember who, were more interested in talking about why no one will come to the Knicks, what a laughing stock they are, even how now the triangle a gimmick, instead of giving some shine to Hardaway who really helped the Knicks keep it close for a while.

And I have to ask, and this is more a general media complaint, has anyone ever seen an offensive system ripped down so fast as to just LAST YEAR, people were begging to bring Phil and the triangle back to LA, now the triangle has become as Simmons says "old and antiquated"?

Great post.

Barkley is an idiot but why do people get so upset at what he says, just ignore him. Lets be honest the knicks havent done themselves any favors the past 15 years with all the poor decisions and losing

StarksEwing1 wrote:Barkley is an idiot but why do people get so upset at what he says, just ignore him. Lets be honest the knicks havent done themselves any favors the past 15 years with all the poor decisions and losing

Personally I am not upset by what he said. I am upset about when he said it. Do that in the studio. If your job is to call a game call the game. The first time he did it the Knicks won. I just hope TNT doesn't decide that he should do the next knick game they broadcast because he is provocative.

CrushAlot wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:Barkley is an idiot but why do people get so upset at what he says, just ignore him. Lets be honest the knicks havent done themselves any favors the past 15 years with all the poor decisions and losing

Personally I am not upset by what he said. I am upset about when he said it. Do that in the studio. If your job is to call a game call the game. The first time he did it the Knicks won. I just hope TNT doesn't decide that he should do the next knick game they broadcast because he is provocative.

agreed that i understand. But even when barkley does it in the studio people go crazy

TPercy wrote:Dragic is the perfect fit for the triangle, he is one of my favourite point guards in the NBA i have no idea how he did not become an all star he practically carried the suns

The thing with Dragic is- was last year just a fluke year? This season his numbers are down across the board, and worryingly back into line with his career averages. He looked elite last season, but this season he just looks like a slightly better Jeremy Lin (who would come cheaper).

Also is Dragic a good or at least reasonable defender? I haven't watched enough of him.

StarksEwing1 wrote:Barkley is an idiot but why do people get so upset at what he says, just ignore him. Lets be honest the knicks havent done themselves any favors the past 15 years with all the poor decisions and losing

I don't get upset at what he says- in fact he has a slight point in that there is a sense of entitlement among Knick fans and media- a lot of people seem to think that every free agent wants to come here and we have a shot- nay, a RIGHT to ALL OF THEM! And then they throw a strop and blame the GM when we don't land them. We are one of 30 teams (or however many there are nowadays)- some players will want to come here, most won't- it's just facts.

smackeddog wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:Barkley is an idiot but why do people get so upset at what he says, just ignore him. Lets be honest the knicks havent done themselves any favors the past 15 years with all the poor decisions and losing

I don't get upset at what he says- in fact he has a slight point in that there is a sense of entitlement among Knick fans and media - a lot of people seem to think that every free agent wants to come here and we have a shot- nay, a RIGHT to ALL OF THEM! And then they throw a strop and blame the GM when we don't land them. We are one of 30 teams (or however many there are nowadays)- some players will want to come here, most won't- it's just facts.

I don't believe this is the case at all!!! I'd like to see proof of this. IMO the media in general is NEVER on the Knicks side. As others have pointed out, Phil was held out as a perfect leader as long as he hadn't taken the Knicks job. When he was being touted to go back to LA he was the one man to get them back to the top. Before the Knicks actually got him here the media was laughing at NY for even thinking he'd come here and then once he did they didn't take long to start demeaning Phil and making jokes about him and the Triangle. They felt Dolan would chase Phil away with his interference. Now they making jokes about this current team and the Triangle and are saying Phil won't be able to convince anyone to come to NY.

You don't see fans posting that we're gonna get all the top FA's this year. Most posts are talking about lower tier FA's coming here but then you have guys on here saying we won't even get those guys. Dragic talks positively about the franchise and still there's this negative response.

Bonn1997 wrote:He just wants a super max contract with a no-trade clause. Don't let Phil and Dolan here this!

Don't forget the 15% kicker paid by team

So it keeps the dead weight here forever

smackeddog wrote:

TPercy wrote:Dragic is the perfect fit for the triangle, he is one of my favourite point guards in the NBA i have no idea how he did not become an all star he practically carried the suns

The thing with Dragic is- was last year just a fluke year? This season his numbers are down across the board, and worryingly back into line with his career averages. He looked elite last season, but this season he just looks like a slightly better Jeremy Lin (who would come cheaper).

Also is Dragic a good or at least reasonable defender? I haven't watched enough of him.

He is definitely better than Calderon he is really quick and can keep up with his man and has good height at 6'3 for a PG/SG. His only weakness that I can remember him having was that he was too unselfish, he passed the ball when he had open shots and since he had shit teamates it often lead to turnovers but other than that he is solid. I would sign him to a 2-3 year contract if we could acquire him.

smackeddog wrote:

TPercy wrote:Dragic is the perfect fit for the triangle, he is one of my favourite point guards in the NBA i have no idea how he did not become an all star he practically carried the suns

The thing with Dragic is- was last year just a fluke year? This season his numbers are down across the board, and worryingly back into line with his career averages. He looked elite last season, but this season he just looks like a slightly better Jeremy Lin (who would come cheaper).

Also is Dragic a good or at least reasonable defender? I haven't watched enough of him.

They signed Isiah Thomas and resigned Bledsoe and have Gerald Green. So his down numbers may be a result in having to share the ball so much with these other guards. Just a guess though as I haven't watched them play much.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Most of the FA's haven't won a title and likely would be very interested to learn from a man with MANY titles under his belt.

Have you considered, that under your own criteria, that if the Knicks NEVER got involved with Phil Jackson and had simply stayed with Isaiah Thomas until now, that your terms would still fit? The same Zeke who got nailed in a sex scandal and literally caused the Continental Basketball Association, the last functional independent minor league basketball system, to go supernova.

Kevin McHale would also qualify. This after driving the Timberwolves into the ground ( to be fair to McHale, Garnett made non public demands on that roster that didn't help at all) This is also after being caught by the league in a secret contract with Joe freaking Smith.

The Knicks could fire everyone and hire Adam Morrison and his porn mustache as GM, and technically, under your criteria, he would qualify.

Don't get me wrong, Zen Masters 11 rings carry some weight, but you make it sound like he's got a pocket full of magic beans. Can he conjure up first round picks out of thin air? Then he's just another first time GM learning the ropes, albeit in his 70s.

I respect your opinions but in this regard I don't really get the value of this point. It's not the "rings" per se but the very real value of his experience in working with great players and helping those players learn how to win together. Sure Phil had talent but it was definitely the case that those teams did not win the title until he came on board. Phil clearly brought something to the table that helped to get them over the hump.

Why do people continue to think it means nothing when it comes to Phil and the Knicks but it means a ton if we were talking about Pop and the Spurs, Riley and the Heat or Jerry West when he was running teams? In this situation Phil is going to have to sell players on why he feels he can build a winning team and i'm pretty sure he can be pretty convincing. In a scenario where the money is equal between the Knicks and some of the other teams we'll be competing against this summer it can't be a negative to have a man like him in charge.

So we'll have money to spend, a great city for a young player to make his name and exploit marketing his brand, a great fan base, a well respected winner at GM/Prez and Melo already in place. I think it's at least one of the good options that FA's will have to chose from when you compare us to
the teams with significant cap space this summer. Philly will have tons of cash but I don't see them as a major competitor. It seems they aren't even looking to Free Agency as a means to build their team. Some other teams will be hard pressed to keep their own teams FA in the fold. Atlanta will be a good destination for FA's but they aren't a great BB city in comparison to NY.

nixluva wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Most of the FA's haven't won a title and likely would be very interested to learn from a man with MANY titles under his belt.

Have you considered, that under your own criteria, that if the Knicks NEVER got involved with Phil Jackson and had simply stayed with Isaiah Thomas until now, that your terms would still fit? The same Zeke who got nailed in a sex scandal and literally caused the Continental Basketball Association, the last functional independent minor league basketball system, to go supernova.

Kevin McHale would also qualify. This after driving the Timberwolves into the ground ( to be fair to McHale, Garnett made non public demands on that roster that didn't help at all) This is also after being caught by the league in a secret contract with Joe freaking Smith.

The Knicks could fire everyone and hire Adam Morrison and his porn mustache as GM, and technically, under your criteria, he would qualify.

Don't get me wrong, Zen Masters 11 rings carry some weight, but you make it sound like he's got a pocket full of magic beans. Can he conjure up first round picks out of thin air? Then he's just another first time GM learning the ropes, albeit in his 70s.

I respect your opinions but in this regard I don't really get the value of this point. It's not the "rings" per se but the very real value of his experience in working with great players and helping those players learn how to win together. Sure Phil had talent but it was definitely the case that those teams did not win the title until he came on board. Phil clearly brought something to the table that helped to get them over the hump.

Why do people continue to think it means nothing when it comes to Phil and the Knicks but it means a ton if we were talking about Pop and the Spurs, Riley and the Heat or Jerry West when he was running teams? In this situation Phil is going to have to sell players on why he feels he can build a winning team and i'm pretty sure he can be pretty convincing. In a scenario where the money is equal between the Knicks and some of the other teams we'll be competing against this summer it can't be a negative to have a man like him in charge.

So we'll have money to spend, a great city for a young player to make his name and exploit marketing his brand, a great fan base, a well respected winner at GM/Prez and Melo already in place. I think it's at least one of the good options that FA's will have to chose from when you compare us to
the teams with significant cap space this summer. Philly will have tons of cash but I don't see them as a major competitor. It seems they aren't even looking to Free Agency as a means to build their team. Some other teams will be hard pressed to keep their own teams FA in the fold. Atlanta will be a good destination for FA's but they aren't a great BB city in comparison to NY.

god bless you for being so optimistic and positive about the knicks. I wish i could be as well. I do like phil and think he will help but i doubt any free agents are looking at his 11 rings they are looking at the money if they come here

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:Most of the FA's haven't won a title and likely would be very interested to learn from a man with MANY titles under his belt.

Have you considered, that under your own criteria, that if the Knicks NEVER got involved with Phil Jackson and had simply stayed with Isaiah Thomas until now, that your terms would still fit? The same Zeke who got nailed in a sex scandal and literally caused the Continental Basketball Association, the last functional independent minor league basketball system, to go supernova.

Kevin McHale would also qualify. This after driving the Timberwolves into the ground ( to be fair to McHale, Garnett made non public demands on that roster that didn't help at all) This is also after being caught by the league in a secret contract with Joe freaking Smith.

The Knicks could fire everyone and hire Adam Morrison and his porn mustache as GM, and technically, under your criteria, he would qualify.

Don't get me wrong, Zen Masters 11 rings carry some weight, but you make it sound like he's got a pocket full of magic beans. Can he conjure up first round picks out of thin air? Then he's just another first time GM learning the ropes, albeit in his 70s.

I respect your opinions but in this regard I don't really get the value of this point. It's not the "rings" per se but the very real value of his experience in working with great players and helping those players learn how to win together. Sure Phil had talent but it was definitely the case that those teams did not win the title until he came on board. Phil clearly brought something to the table that helped to get them over the hump.

Why do people continue to think it means nothing when it comes to Phil and the Knicks but it means a ton if we were talking about Pop and the Spurs, Riley and the Heat or Jerry West when he was running teams? In this situation Phil is going to have to sell players on why he feels he can build a winning team and i'm pretty sure he can be pretty convincing. In a scenario where the money is equal between the Knicks and some of the other teams we'll be competing against this summer it can't be a negative to have a man like him in charge.

So we'll have money to spend, a great city for a young player to make his name and exploit marketing his brand, a great fan base, a well respected winner at GM/Prez and Melo already in place. I think it's at least one of the good options that FA's will have to chose from when you compare us to
the teams with significant cap space this summer. Philly will have tons of cash but I don't see them as a major competitor. It seems they aren't even looking to Free Agency as a means to build their team. Some other teams will be hard pressed to keep their own teams FA in the fold. Atlanta will be a good destination for FA's but they aren't a great BB city in comparison to NY.

god bless you for being so optimistic and positive about the knicks. I wish i could be as well. I do like phil and think he will help but i doubt any free agents are looking at his 11 rings they are looking at the money if they come here

Yes but when the money is even as it might be in some cases there will come a point where a FA has to decide where he wants to make his mark for a good stretch of his best years. NY has a good a case as any with the city and Phil in charge. It's easy to be pessimistic based on the past but right now things will be somewhat equal with the Knicks going up against other franchises for FA's. The Knicks will be right there in ability to pay.

76ers

Fully Guaranteed Contracts=$13,508,212 (Five Players)
Non-Guaranteed Contracts=$2,792,335 (Three Players)
Projected Cap Flexibility=$50,199,453

Spurs

Fully Guaranteed Contracts=$34,159,326 (Five Players)
Non-Guaranteed Contracts=$0
Projected Cap Flexibility=$32,340,674

Knicks

Fully Guaranteed Contracts=$38,827,141 (Five Players) *
Non-Guaranteed Contracts=$1,734,572 (One Player)
Projected Cap Flexibility=25,938,287

*Includes J.R. Smith‘s player option for $6,399,750

Hawks

Fully Guaranteed Contracts=$41,215,385 (Nine Players)
Non-Guaranteed Contracts=$947,276 (One Player)
Projected Cap Flexibility=$24,337,339

Grizzlies

Fully Guaranteed Contracts=$40,190,597 (Eight Players) *
Non-Guaranteed Contracts=$3,205,465 (Two Players)
Projected Cap Flexibility=$23,103,938

Mavericks

Fully Guaranteed Contracts=$42,466,471(Seven Players) *
Non-Guaranteed Contracts=$1,792,335 (Two Players)
Projected Cap Flexibility=$22,241,194

*Includes the $947,276 owed to Gal Mekel, who was waived;
Monta Ellis‘ player option for $8.72MM; Raymond Felton‘s $3,950,313 player option;
and Al-Farouq Aminu‘s player option for $1,100,602.

http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2014/11/20151...

I'm hoping JR's agent convinces him to opt out, which would give us even more cap room. Phil could also make a trade if he was so inclined to move Jose if he wanted to clear a bit more room. It's going to be interesting to see how things work out.

I think another way of putting it

Barkley was saying no player will come here

As "Captain-Player Save Ho-Team" for us