Knicks · we are officially the worst team in the nba (page 3)

fishmike wrote:Hahaha... "it doesn't take talent to play defense"

And you go posting that your not sure I understand basketball or athletic competition. Man your a gem. I hope you never take your ball and go like splat. Please keep posting. Awesome.

yeah i said it once and i'll say it again: it does not take talent. it takes technique and heart.

that's why it is so hard to find two-way players-- not for lack of talent but because they lack the technique and the will.

this is basketball 101. the short bus is that way -------> make sure you're under it

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Even if we get a Number 1, 2 or 3 pick..we have a coach that (more than likely will end up with 9 wins) what gives anyone faith in a coach that holds the worst record in franchise history and maybe the NBA.
9 wins 2014/15
25 wins 2015/16
33 win 2016/17

Is that when you guys will start to reconsider

Easy. Its not bad coaching its talent. When he fails with some decent players who were picked by the same GM that hired the coach may the reconsidering begin. This is a good year to let Fisher take his lumps.

Oh he's taking lumps, the team is not competing at all, how does a player learn from that, how does he develop if all he knows is losing.

If i show you how to drive, and you wreck every car, do you continue to let me teach you.

I would say its YOUR fault for teaching me in the car, and if your pissed about me wrecking them you should have sent me to drivers-ed where I can practice in simulation like everyone else. This is Fishers drivers-ed.

Team did compete. 17 of the first 22 losses were by 5 points or less. They lacked the ponies to finish. Now with the towel waived the blowouts commence.

Saying the team never competed is not accurate.

the team competed hard.

the team sucked hard.

The team competed hard, don't make me laugh..you leave veteran savvy priggs on the bench and put a rookie in to close games in the clutch, and watch him turn the ball over every chance he had the ball.

changing your starting line up in the 2nd half of games.

mark jackson got fired for winning 50 games and people were piss, kerr comes in with damn near the same exact rotation, and they are the 2nd best team in the league.

Look, if you guys think fisher has nothing to do with our record, you really are living in La la land.

But i'll tell you this, as long as he's the coach, i don't care if the starting line up is, kobe, MJ. magic, bird and shaq, we will be a bad team for yrs to come

The Problem is that you have nothing with which to base that opinion. You can't use this season as any indication. I will say this. Unlike most styles of play the Triangle is less dependent on the Coach on the bench as much as it's about the coach on the Practice Floor. Phil barely ever did much most of the time on the bench. This is about teaching your players how to get it done themselves. He's not out there calling plays every time down. It's a read and react offense. You have to have players that can actually get it done and with this roster we don't have enough players that can.

Phil, Fish, Rambis and Cleamons are doing things almost exactly the way Phil has always done them. It's the players!!!

Phil had to bring in Tex winters to truly teach the triangle, and that was in an era where half court basketball was a staple in the NBA. He had the best player and arguable the 2nd best player(on both ends of the court) in the nba during all his championship runs.

Melo, shump, larkin, , JR, daly, wear, acy are no where close to being a group that fits the fundamental of the triangle

Amare, Coles, Calderon, THJ and Jason Smith can thrive as role players in the system. Phil said if guys aren't getting it after 3 months or by xmas, he's going to start making moves, which he has, is he going to keep changing the players every 3 months?

There are only 2 teams in the last 30 yrs that have won running the triangle philosophy, 95% of coaches want nothing to do with the triangle or it's philosophy because it stagnates players ability to create.

Good luck finding any player in the NBA, or college who knows anything about the system, and unless phil is at every practice, or doing his meditation dance, don't think that fisher has the experience to teach or adjust.

He hasn't shown me he can teach, adjust, rotate, or prepare a team. The knicks play like robots, there passes are super predictable because they constantly play half court and almost never have the defense on there heals. EVERY SINGLE TIME DOWN COURT, even in the middle of a fast break, they will wait until the defense sets up so they can run the triangle and make predictable passes.

The only time they play lose, and go on a minnny run, is when they scrap the triangle.

I'm not even going to go into the defensive philosophy, thats so depressing.

So please, pretty please, with sugar on top, give me one damn piece of evidence that will indicate that fisher will be a good coach in the near future?

knicks1248 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Even if we get a Number 1, 2 or 3 pick..we have a coach that (more than likely will end up with 9 wins) what gives anyone faith in a coach that holds the worst record in franchise history and maybe the NBA.
9 wins 2014/15
25 wins 2015/16
33 win 2016/17

Is that when you guys will start to reconsider

Easy. Its not bad coaching its talent. When he fails with some decent players who were picked by the same GM that hired the coach may the reconsidering begin. This is a good year to let Fisher take his lumps.

Oh he's taking lumps, the team is not competing at all, how does a player learn from that, how does he develop if all he knows is losing.

If i show you how to drive, and you wreck every car, do you continue to let me teach you.

I would say its YOUR fault for teaching me in the car, and if your pissed about me wrecking them you should have sent me to drivers-ed where I can practice in simulation like everyone else. This is Fishers drivers-ed.

Team did compete. 17 of the first 22 losses were by 5 points or less. They lacked the ponies to finish. Now with the towel waived the blowouts commence.

Saying the team never competed is not accurate.

the team competed hard.

the team sucked hard.

The team competed hard, don't make me laugh..you leave veteran savvy priggs on the bench and put a rookie in to close games in the clutch, and watch him turn the ball over every chance he had the ball.

changing your starting line up in the 2nd half of games.

mark jackson got fired for winning 50 games and people were piss, kerr comes in with damn near the same exact rotation, and they are the 2nd best team in the league.

Look, if you guys think fisher has nothing to do with our record, you really are living in La la land.

But i'll tell you this, as long as he's the coach, i don't care if the starting line up is, kobe, MJ. magic, bird and shaq, we will be a bad team for yrs to come

The Problem is that you have nothing with which to base that opinion. You can't use this season as any indication. I will say this. Unlike most styles of play the Triangle is less dependent on the Coach on the bench as much as it's about the coach on the Practice Floor. Phil barely ever did much most of the time on the bench. This is about teaching your players how to get it done themselves. He's not out there calling plays every time down. It's a read and react offense. You have to have players that can actually get it done and with this roster we don't have enough players that can.

Phil, Fish, Rambis and Cleamons are doing things almost exactly the way Phil has always done them. It's the players!!!

Phil had to bring in Tex winters to truly teach the triangle, and that was in an era where half court basketball was a staple in the NBA. He had the best player and arguable the 2nd best player(on both ends of the court) in the nba during all his championship runs.

Melo, shump, larkin, , JR, daly, wear, acy are no where close to being a group that fits the fundamental of the triangle

Amare, Coles, Calderon, THJ and Jason Smith can thrive as role players in the system. Phil said if guys aren't getting it after 3 months or by xmas, he's going to start making moves, which he has, is he going to keep changing the players every 3 months?

There are only 2 teams in the last 30 yrs that have won running the triangle philosophy, 95% of coaches want nothing to do with the triangle or it's philosophy because it stagnates players ability to create.

Good luck finding any player in the NBA, or college who knows anything about the system, and unless phil is at every practice, or doing his meditation dance, don't think that fisher has the experience to teach or adjust.

He hasn't shown me he can teach, adjust, rotate, or prepare a team. The knicks play like robots, there passes are super predictable because they constantly play half court and almost never have the defense on there heals. EVERY SINGLE TIME DOWN COURT, even in the middle of a fast break, they will wait until the defense sets up so they can run the triangle and make predictable passes.

The only time they play lose, and go on a minnny run, is when they scrap the triangle.

I'm not even going to go into the defensive philosophy, thats so depressing.

So please, pretty please, with sugar on top, give me one damn piece of evidence that will indicate that fisher will be a good coach in the near future?

This is a meaningless argument at this time. Let's at least wait until we have our new roster to re-examine Fisher's coaching ability. Right now it just makes no sense to go back and forth.

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Even if we get a Number 1, 2 or 3 pick..we have a coach that (more than likely will end up with 9 wins) what gives anyone faith in a coach that holds the worst record in franchise history and maybe the NBA.
9 wins 2014/15
25 wins 2015/16
33 win 2016/17

Is that when you guys will start to reconsider

Easy. Its not bad coaching its talent. When he fails with some decent players who were picked by the same GM that hired the coach may the reconsidering begin. This is a good year to let Fisher take his lumps.

Oh he's taking lumps, the team is not competing at all, how does a player learn from that, how does he develop if all he knows is losing.

If i show you how to drive, and you wreck every car, do you continue to let me teach you.

You are talking out of your ass!!! You must not even watch games anymore cuz players haven't stopped competing. They just aren't good enough to win, but the players are giving effort and being developed. I really think you need to relax on this one cuz it's not worth the effort. Fish is going to get his chance to coach this team after it's been rebuilt.

when you have the worst defense in the league and many players not running the offense but going into "i'm gonna get me mine" mode then the team is not only bad but also not competing. now explain to me how coming from behind and eventually falling short by 5 points or less is "competing?"

Just wondering who is in the 'I'm gonna get me mine' mode. Was it Acy last night? Cole, Shane or Pablo? Not seeing that at all. Just no talent right now. Bargs and Amare are probably done. Melo is probably shut down unless he keeps playing until the all star game. Not seeing this with this group.

wow you just don't ever give up. how did they get to 5-32 if they are competing? if they were competing they would not be the worst defense in the league. it doesn't take "talent" to play defense. it does take some technique but more important it takes heart and will and the willingness to put in more effort than on the offensive end. it also takes a leader who sets the defensive tone. that's also important. cole shane and pablo are now playing because the team was not competing, and that lack of competitiveness led to the record we are enjoying now.

names please. Who are the guys you keep referring to?

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Even if we get a Number 1, 2 or 3 pick..we have a coach that (more than likely will end up with 9 wins) what gives anyone faith in a coach that holds the worst record in franchise history and maybe the NBA.
9 wins 2014/15
25 wins 2015/16
33 win 2016/17

Is that when you guys will start to reconsider

Easy. Its not bad coaching its talent. When he fails with some decent players who were picked by the same GM that hired the coach may the reconsidering begin. This is a good year to let Fisher take his lumps.

Oh he's taking lumps, the team is not competing at all, how does a player learn from that, how does he develop if all he knows is losing.

If i show you how to drive, and you wreck every car, do you continue to let me teach you.

You are talking out of your ass!!! You must not even watch games anymore cuz players haven't stopped competing. They just aren't good enough to win, but the players are giving effort and being developed. I really think you need to relax on this one cuz it's not worth the effort. Fish is going to get his chance to coach this team after it's been rebuilt.

when you have the worst defense in the league and many players not running the offense but going into "i'm gonna get me mine" mode then the team is not only bad but also not competing. now explain to me how coming from behind and eventually falling short by 5 points or less is "competing?"

Just wondering who is in the 'I'm gonna get me mine' mode. Was it Acy last night? Cole, Shane or Pablo? Not seeing that at all. Just no talent right now. Bargs and Amare are probably done. Melo is probably shut down unless he keeps playing until the all star game. Not seeing this with this group.

wow you just don't ever give up. how did they get to 5-32 if they are competing? if they were competing they would not be the worst defense in the league. it doesn't take "talent" to play defense. it does take some technique but more important it takes heart and will and the willingness to put in more effort than on the offensive end. it also takes a leader who sets the defensive tone. that's also important. cole shane and pablo are now playing because the team was not competing, and that lack of competitiveness led to the record we are enjoying now.

names please. Who are the guys you keep referring to?

carmelo anthony
jr smith
timothy hardaway jr.
amare stoudemire

these are the primary culprits.

action jackson: “That’s when we say, if you haven’t gotten it by now, we’ll have to really think about if you’re a learner or if you’re not a learner.”

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:Hahaha... "it doesn't take talent to play defense"

And you go posting that your not sure I understand basketball or athletic competition. Man your a gem. I hope you never take your ball and go like splat. Please keep posting. Awesome.

yeah i said it once and i'll say it again: it does not take talent. it takes technique and heart.

that's why it is so hard to find two-way players-- not for lack of talent but because they lack the technique and the will.

this is basketball 101. the short bus is that way -------> make sure you're under it

what?

so calderon could play defense if he tried?

No ... he just plain cannot dee up

dk7th wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:Even if we get a Number 1, 2 or 3 pick..we have a coach that (more than likely will end up with 9 wins) what gives anyone faith in a coach that holds the worst record in franchise history and maybe the NBA.
9 wins 2014/15
25 wins 2015/16
33 win 2016/17

Is that when you guys will start to reconsider

Easy. Its not bad coaching its talent. When he fails with some decent players who were picked by the same GM that hired the coach may the reconsidering begin. This is a good year to let Fisher take his lumps.

Oh he's taking lumps, the team is not competing at all, how does a player learn from that, how does he develop if all he knows is losing.

If i show you how to drive, and you wreck every car, do you continue to let me teach you.

You are talking out of your ass!!! You must not even watch games anymore cuz players haven't stopped competing. They just aren't good enough to win, but the players are giving effort and being developed. I really think you need to relax on this one cuz it's not worth the effort. Fish is going to get his chance to coach this team after it's been rebuilt.

when you have the worst defense in the league and many players not running the offense but going into "i'm gonna get me mine" mode then the team is not only bad but also not competing. now explain to me how coming from behind and eventually falling short by 5 points or less is "competing?"

Just wondering who is in the 'I'm gonna get me mine' mode. Was it Acy last night? Cole, Shane or Pablo? Not seeing that at all. Just no talent right now. Bargs and Amare are probably done. Melo is probably shut down unless he keeps playing until the all star game. Not seeing this with this group.

wow you just don't ever give up. how did they get to 5-32 if they are competing? if they were competing they would not be the worst defense in the league. it doesn't take "talent" to play defense. it does take some technique but more important it takes heart and will and the willingness to put in more effort than on the offensive end. it also takes a leader who sets the defensive tone. that's also important. cole shane and pablo are now playing because the team was not competing, and that lack of competitiveness led to the record we are enjoying now.

Every single game (other than melo) a player never knows if he is going to start, come of the bench, play in the 1st qtr, 2nd, 3, 4th, he may play 3 minutes, 30, he may not play at all. Is that functional at all, Is that how you develop, build trust, learn a system, evaluate talent.

These players are looking confused and have/had zero confidence in anything that they are doing, they don't trust the system, and it surely hasn't brought out the best in anyone associated.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:Some chance is better than no chance.

yes but as opposed to most posts, lets assume that we are NOT getting him.

Or maybe we can assume that we ARE getting him in only 1 out of every 4 posts.

FWIW, Okafor doesn't come out looking that good in this metrics system. I don't have the book and don't need the details of the formula being used but the system appears to have done pretty well historically.
http://www.basketballanalyticsbook.com/2...
This was earlier in the season and based on a small amount of games, also.

Yeah I wouldn't worry too much about the early performance. Okafor seems to be improving and i'm sure he'll look much better as the season moves along and also he's very young still with lots of upside.

I gotta admit I just noticed you can find the win share ratings for NCAA players and Okafor's .321 looks very good.
There's some good stats here:
http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/play...
I wish there was more info. about the other metrics system available without having to buy the book

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:Hahaha... "it doesn't take talent to play defense"

And you go posting that your not sure I understand basketball or athletic competition. Man your a gem. I hope you never take your ball and go like splat. Please keep posting. Awesome.

yeah i said it once and i'll say it again: it does not take talent. it takes technique and heart.

that's why it is so hard to find two-way players-- not for lack of talent but because they lack the technique and the will.

this is basketball 101. the short bus is that way -------> make sure you're under it

what?

so calderon could play defense if he tried?

No ... he just plain cannot dee up

you're bringing up an exception here. why?

look at his defensive win shares over his career. age has a LOT to do with it. he should not be a starter in this league at 33 years of age. based on his defense alone he would not be in the nba, but i guess the nba is so thin at orchestrating and distributing point guards they can choose to look the other way, if only for a certain period of time before you realize that steve nash was the one notable exception to the axiom that a point guard must be able to defend the point of attack, especially the ability to fight over screens.

toronto was an abomination defensively while he was there. one first round appearance.

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:Hahaha... "it doesn't take talent to play defense"

And you go posting that your not sure I understand basketball or athletic competition. Man your a gem. I hope you never take your ball and go like splat. Please keep posting. Awesome.

yeah i said it once and i'll say it again: it does not take talent. it takes technique and heart.

that's why it is so hard to find two-way players-- not for lack of talent but because they lack the technique and the will.

this is basketball 101. the short bus is that way -------> make sure you're under it

what?

so calderon could play defense if he tried?

No ... he just plain cannot dee up

You dont know basketball or athletic competition. Obviously the only difference between Calderon and say Rondo... is Rondo just tries harder.

Awesome stuff.

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:Hahaha... "it doesn't take talent to play defense"

And you go posting that your not sure I understand basketball or athletic competition. Man your a gem. I hope you never take your ball and go like splat. Please keep posting. Awesome.

yeah i said it once and i'll say it again: it does not take talent. it takes technique and heart.

that's why it is so hard to find two-way players-- not for lack of talent but because they lack the technique and the will.

this is basketball 101. the short bus is that way -------> make sure you're under it

what?

so calderon could play defense if he tried?

No ... he just plain cannot dee up

You dont know basketball or athletic competition. Obviously the only difference between Calderon and say Rondo... is Rondo just tries harder.

Awesome stuff.

Defense is about conditioning, technique, communication, conditioning, athleticism, knowing your opponents, conditioning, court awareness, good timing, conditioning, desire and hard work, knowing how to move when your man/woman doesn't have the ball, conditioning and knowing when to move over and under the screen, using your brain so you don't foul so much and of course, conditioning.

It's not a physical skill per say but it might as well be with all of the preparation it takes. With that said, the people who play the best defense are the best conditioned and most well rounded athletes. If you are a two way player, you can consider yourself one of the most fit athletes in the NBA and also a candidate for a big time contract, whether you are a role player, featured starter or a star.

I will say that getting steals and blocks are close to being a skill but those are more so about timing then about being skillful too. I know a ton of people who aren't the most skilled basketball players but can play great defense and get steals or blocks.

Allanfan20 wrote:

fishmike wrote:

mreinman wrote:

dk7th wrote:

fishmike wrote:Hahaha... "it doesn't take talent to play defense"

And you go posting that your not sure I understand basketball or athletic competition. Man your a gem. I hope you never take your ball and go like splat. Please keep posting. Awesome.

yeah i said it once and i'll say it again: it does not take talent. it takes technique and heart.

that's why it is so hard to find two-way players-- not for lack of talent but because they lack the technique and the will.

this is basketball 101. the short bus is that way -------> make sure you're under it

what?

so calderon could play defense if he tried?

No ... he just plain cannot dee up

You dont know basketball or athletic competition. Obviously the only difference between Calderon and say Rondo... is Rondo just tries harder.

Awesome stuff.

Defense is about conditioning, technique, conditioning, athleticism, knowing your opponents, conditioning, court awareness, good timing, conditioning, desire and hard work, knowing how to move when your man/woman doesn't have the ball, conditioning and knowing when to move over and under the screen, using your brain so you don't foul so much and of course, conditioning.

It's not a physical skill per say but it might as well be with all of the preparation it takes. With that said, the people who play the best defense are the best conditioned and most well rounded athletes. If you are a two way player, you can consider yourself one of the most fit athletes in the NBA and also a candidate for a big time contract, whether you are a role player, featured starter or a star.

I disagree a bit... length and quickness are prerequisites to ever being a high caliber defensive player. Look at Houston and Spree. Houston had most all of those things you mentioned. Even his technique was solid. He was very good at using the baselines for help and pushing his man towards the shotblockers, but nobody would ever confuse Houston with a good defensive player. Effort was there, he was good in a team concept, but not an effective defensive player. He was slow footed and didnt have anything like Sprewell's quickness. What I am saying is Houston didnt have anything like Spree's talent on the defensive end. There are two very different ceilings there that cant be compensated with effort or conditioning.

When you lack the physical tools to be a bigtime defender what happens? You focus on other skills. BTW physical tools? Thats talent.

I also mentioned athleticism. Allan Houston had little lateral quickness and he was not good at off the ball defense. Sprewell had both of those things as you mentioned. I will go on a limb and say Sprewell was a far better conditioned athlete. That isn't me saying Houston wasn't in good condition because he was. Also, in terms of being able to explode and move side by side, Spree was on a different planet than Allan and most people in the NBA in general. If you want to say that's a skill, go ahead but I think that's more about how Sprewell conditioned himself when he trained off the court. I would love to see one of those workouts.

With that said, I did mention that it might as well be a skill because it takes a crap ton of preparation and hard work in order to be a good defender. However, if you bust your ars the right way and keep your conditioning at a superior level, you can be a good NBA defender. If you bust your ass taking shots, you wont be guaranteed to be a good shooter, especially in the NBA or WNBA. It takes an extremely specific set of skills and body movements to master that and those skills and movements vary from person to person a lot more than defense does.

And to further prove my point, if you move away from the NBA and if you just talk about playing at the YMCA or some regular league or even street ball, I will venture to say that some of the least talented people I have ever encountered have shown to be very good defenders. I'm not talking about regular fat kids sitting on the couch all day though. I'm talking about athletes who just decided they want to play basketball that day or on occasion to keep the blood flowing or have a little fun.

Allanfan20 wrote:I also mentioned athleticism. Allan Houston had little lateral quickness and he was not good at off the ball defense. Sprewell had both of those things as you mentioned. I will go on a limb and say Sprewell was a far better conditioned athlete. That isn't me saying Houston wasn't in good condition because he was. Also, in terms of being able to explode and move side by side, Spree was on a different planet than Allan and most people in the NBA in general. If you want to say that's a skill, go ahead but I think that's more about how Sprewell conditioned himself when he trained off the court. I would love to see one of those workouts.

With that said, I did mention that it might as well be a skill because it takes a crap ton of preparation and hard work in order to be a good defender. However, if you bust your ars the right way and keep your conditioning at a superior level, you can be a good NBA defender. If you bust your ass taking shots, you wont be guaranteed to be a good shooter, especially in the NBA or WNBA. It takes an extremely specific set of skills and body movements to master that and those skills and movements vary from person to person a lot more than defense does.

I can really only disagree with the bold. Houston was always in great shape, could play heavy minutes and was very good hitting shots and closing games. I think his conditioning was excellent. I think it came down to build and body. Spree had a quickness and speed Houston could never possess. Houston had slow feet. Coming full circle I would say Sprewell had the talent to be an elite defender and Houston did not... dispelling DK's idiotic notion that defense has nothing to do with talent. There are many guys in the league that will never be good defenders, but that doesnt mean they cant fit in a team concept defensively, or be excellent basktball players. Nash won 2 MVPs. He had quickness but not the length. He was short with short arms. He lacked the talent to be a great defensive player. Effort was not an issue.

Bump as Minny just won and we're alone with 5 wins.

Hard to be excited.

We are the worst team now. Wait... we have Carmelo Anthony on this team? Sigh...

alwaysaknick wrote:We are the worst team now. Wait... we have Carmelo Anthony on this team? Sigh...

Relax ...

O

K

4

I was just excited by that 52 points. I am fine.

I think this picture summarises the season:

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But hopefully some good will come of it!