Bonn1997 wrote:They're both great models of effective cap use. Not a penny spent overpaying. You can get huge production from guys making $10 mil a season.
I also bet they provided them PowerPoint presentations
On how winning impacts their financial pockets
Take for instance Tiago Splitter has already
Made more guaranteed money in this league than J.R. Smith
Although he's spent half the time in the league
How about the Jazz Letting Korver and Matthews go in the same summer then eventually letting Carrol and Millsap leave for nothing.
Front office execs are under tremendous pressure i am sure and often times don't have the luxury of waiting, but the are a number of idiots that keep fucking up teams and getting rehired.
Atlanta was fortunate that the Nets have a guy in the front office without a clue that took Joe Johnsons contract and give up picks in the process.
This happens in baseball all the time where someone gets big dollars on what they have done instead of what they are going too do. Dolan is the ultimate problem, you hire the guys that work for the best organizations in the front office. OKC, Spurs, etc, go get those guys that have been in the trenches don't have the massive egos and build a great team internally.
misterearl wrote:How long?(The Hawks rid themselves of Joe Johnson in July 2012.)
33 assists last night in Chicago. Beautiful basketball. Not a super star in the bunch. Unselfish. Playing for each other.
If Uncle Phil is the Zen Master of team building, few of the new Knicks names will be the familiar or fantasized. Eight or nine men, with tiny egos, who fit perfectly together.
Piece of cake.
the hawks had and still have horford, a two-way player. apples to apples, mmmk?
dk7th wrote:misterearl wrote:How long?(The Hawks rid themselves of Joe Johnson in July 2012.)
33 assists last night in Chicago. Beautiful basketball. Not a super star in the bunch. Unselfish. Playing for each other.
If Uncle Phil is the Zen Master of team building, few of the new Knicks names will be the familiar or fantasized. Eight or nine men, with tiny egos, who fit perfectly together.
Piece of cake.
the hawks had and still have horford, a two-way player. apples to apples, mmmk?
That's what this draft is for. We add one core piece and look for more value in free agency. There is quality in the 2nd n 3rd tier free agents. There just needs to be a clear vision of what kind of players should be targeted. 2 way guys that are solid and team oriented.
nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:misterearl wrote:How long?(The Hawks rid themselves of Joe Johnson in July 2012.)
33 assists last night in Chicago. Beautiful basketball. Not a super star in the bunch. Unselfish. Playing for each other.
If Uncle Phil is the Zen Master of team building, few of the new Knicks names will be the familiar or fantasized. Eight or nine men, with tiny egos, who fit perfectly together.
Piece of cake.
the hawks had and still have horford, a two-way player. apples to apples, mmmk?
That's what this draft is for. We add one core piece and look for more value in free agency. There is quality in the 2nd n 3rd tier free agents. There just needs to be a clear vision of what kind of players should be targeted. 2 way guys that are solid and team oriented.
prideful and self motivated too. I don't think our top players care if they lose our not because they still are rich. That's Amare, smith, shump, Bargs...if we had similar salaried players I think we'd be so much better off. I'm so glad this era has an ending and we can start this new after this year
EnySpree wrote:nixluva wrote:dk7th wrote:misterearl wrote:How long?(The Hawks rid themselves of Joe Johnson in July 2012.)
33 assists last night in Chicago. Beautiful basketball. Not a super star in the bunch. Unselfish. Playing for each other.
If Uncle Phil is the Zen Master of team building, few of the new Knicks names will be the familiar or fantasized. Eight or nine men, with tiny egos, who fit perfectly together.
Piece of cake.
the hawks had and still have horford, a two-way player. apples to apples, mmmk?
That's what this draft is for. We add one core piece and look for more value in free agency. There is quality in the 2nd n 3rd tier free agents. There just needs to be a clear vision of what kind of players should be targeted. 2 way guys that are solid and team oriented.
prideful and self motivated too. I don't think our top players care if they lose our not because they still are rich. That's Amare, smith, shump, Bargs...if we had similar salaried players I think we'd be so much better off. I'm so glad this era has an ending and we can start this new after this year
I think you left someone off your list!
mreinman wrote:FistOfOakley wrote:Main thing with the hawks was having horford and believing in teague and not pulling the plug on him too early..
kinda lucky too.
Teague was ours but we insisted on them taking Felton which of course Atlanta said fuk no!
That is one of those trades that you count your lucky stars that you did not make.
Teague is playing off the charts! I credit Budenholzer for the way he is playing.
It's amazing how bad the decision to not match Lin's contract was and how it's reverberated over the years. If we match Lin we never bother trading for Felton and we still have Kostas Papanikoloau and our 2016 2nd round pick. When we try to trade for Teague we don't insist they take Felton as well and we could have completed an actual good trade for once. When we trade Tyson we don't use him as a carrot to get other teams to take Felton off our hands and we could have gotten real assets back instead of the garbage we have now.
Of course, Felton isn't making that much money. If we had just waived his ass and used the stretch provision on him the cap hit would have been under $2M/year.
1. Spurs culture was born from Larry Brown's tenure there. Pop was his assistant.
2. Hindsight 20-20 is one thing. Look at the mistakes ATL has made and still has been able to evolve.
3. Spurs are patient and develop their players but make no mistake that Pop is brutal on the young guys, he IS!!!!
4. Splitter is why Timmy has endured longer. A 7 foot monster to play next to.
5. Parker a few times either was benched (george hill took his spot for a brief time) or could have left for more money. Duncan went to bat for hand while he might never had been paid full market value, he has chosen to stay in the "Culture" and succeeded.
6. Identify guys that would work for the system. Diaw is a great example. Off the waiver wire and into two finals!!! Chemistry and the right guy in the right system. Not collections of talent or bad attitude guys.
FistOfOakley wrote:Main thing with the hawks was having horford and believing in teague and not pulling the plug on him too early..
They almost pulled the plug on Teague multiple times. He was even rumored to be discussed going to NY. Sometimes, franchises are saved from themselves when the right deal doesn't come along. Same with Toronto, who nearly blew it up by trading Lowry to NY. The key is to find a core of players and stick with it. We have a huge problem because of the impatience. People here talk about not wanted to build a team that is a 2nd round out each year, but not a real contender. Well the key is to put together a team that is competitive each year, and maybe the chips will fall into place at some point. Chemistry will develop and at worst we will still be a solid team. With Melo we have 1 player, our draft pick will add another, and hoping we can sign 2 really good players. As long as you have that core of 4 guys, like Atlanta does, you can start to put things together and eventually give yourself a chance each season, even if on paper you don't look like a contender right away. Atlanta might not be a true contender, but they are giving themselves a chance and thats all that can be expected.
Continuity
Knixkik - excellent summary and perspective. If Melo is our Al Horford, the question is whether Uncle Phil will acquire that special player who he is compatible with on the court... or select players with Melo as an afterthought.
Of the current roster, is there one player who meets the criteria of core player?
misterearl wrote:ContinuityKnixkik - excellent summary and perspective. If Melo is our Al Horford, the question is whether Uncle Phil will acquire that special player who he is compatible with on the court... or select players with Melo as an afterthought.
Of the current roster, is there one player who meets the criteria of core player?
No there isn't, and that is the main problem. We have a ton of guys who can end up being quality role players and guys to round out the bench, but we don't have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th guy needed to put together that core, like Atl has.
Do Good Things Come to Those Who Wait?
Knixkix - if Uncle Phil sees this as a three year project, it would appear that age will play a significant role in his decision-making. Basketball is a young mans game. The Hawks timing, whether by accident or providence, has afforded their roster to cohere with the core players around he same age. All of the core players, except Korver, are under 30.
Milsap is 29. Carroll and Horford are 28. Teague 26.
Our core guy will be 34 when the roster is finally in place.
IMO the Hawks core 8 players are a very nice group of players, that make sense together and fit the style the coach has them playing. Productive, smart and team oriented players. It seems more attainable than trying to collect 3 stars and hoping you can fill out the rest of the roster. It would take careful decision making and patience. As others have talked about the Hawks almost messed it up several times. It also takes GUTS to go this way since most fans want teams to have big name talent. This approach is less sexy and harder for a GM to justify if the team doesn't take off right away.
G FG FG% 3P% FT% OREB DREB REB AST STL TO PF PTS
1. Jeff Teague 37 5.9 47.9% 35.4% 86.8% 0.4 2.3 2.7 7.4 1.8 2.6 1.9 17.4
2. Paul Millsap 40 6.1 47.7% 33.3% 73.3% 1.7 6.3 7.9 3.2 1.8 2.4 2.7 16.9
3. Al Horford 39 6.8 53.8% 33.3% 73.4% 1.4 5.2 6.6 3.1 0.6 1.2 1.8 15.2
4. Kyle Korver 40 4.2 51.5% 53.6% 92% 0.3 3.9 4.2 2.9 0.7 1.5 1.8 13.2
5. DeMarre Carroll 36 4.1 45.4% 38.8% 68.7% 1.5 4.1 5.6 1.4 1.3 0.9 2.4 11.7
6. Dennis Schroder 39 3.2 44.4% 24.5% 75.3% 0.3 1.6 1.9 3.2 0.9 1.8 1.5 8.1
7. Mike Scott 39 2.7 44.7% 38.5% 83.3% 0.5 2 2.5 1 0.2 0.7 1.3 7.4
8. Thabo Sefolosha 39 1.9 42% 28.6% 78.7% 1 3.4 4.5 1.6 1.1 0.7 1.4 5.39. Kent Bazemore 34 1.2 42.4% 44.1% 60% 0.1 2 2.1 0.6 0.3 0.6 1.3 3.4
10 Shelvin Mack 31 1.7 37.3% 30.6% 78.9% 0.2 1.3 1.5 2.8 0.4 0.9 0.5 4.5
11 Pero Antic 30 2 41.2% 33% 69.8% 0.9 1.9 2.8 0.9 0.3 0.9 2.3 6.3
12 Elton Brand 16 1.4 46.8% — 46.2% 1.1 1.9 3 0.5 0.5 0.4 1.5 3.1
13 Mike Muscala 14 1.9 53.1% 25% 85.7% 1.3 1 2.3 0.3 0.3 0.5 0.9 4.2
14 John Jenkins 3 1.7 45.5% 33.3% 100% — 0.7 0.7 — 0.3 0.3 0.7 4
15 Adreian Payne 3 0.7 28.6% — 50% 0.3 1 1.3 — 0.3 — 1.3 1.7
Phil has a philosophy which should make it easier for him to target specific players who can excel playing the way he wants to play. Phil has to start with his core and build out from there. The Hawks adding Millsap and Korver to Teague and Horford was a huge cornerstone to this teams success. Seeing how they are structured should give hope to the Knick Fans who are wondering how this can work. We will have a different mix of players with Phil doing the choosing but the principle should be the same. Productive, 2 way, well rounded players who can excel in a team oriented system.
nixluva wrote:IMO the Hawks core 8 players are a very nice group of players, that make sense together and fit the style the coach has them playing. Productive, smart and team oriented players. It seems more attainable than trying to collect 3 stars and hoping you can fill out the rest of the roster. It would take careful decision making and patience. As others have talked about the Hawks almost messed it up several times. It also takes GUTS to go this way since most fans want teams to have big name talent. This approach is less sexy and harder for a GM to justify if the team doesn't take off right away.
G FG FG% 3P% FT% OREB DREB REB AST STL TO PF PTS
1. Jeff Teague 37 5.9 47.9% 35.4% 86.8% 0.4 2.3 2.7 7.4 1.8 2.6 1.9 17.4
2. Paul Millsap 40 6.1 47.7% 33.3% 73.3% 1.7 6.3 7.9 3.2 1.8 2.4 2.7 16.9
3. Al Horford 39 6.8 53.8% 33.3% 73.4% 1.4 5.2 6.6 3.1 0.6 1.2 1.8 15.2
4. Kyle Korver 40 4.2 51.5% 53.6% 92% 0.3 3.9 4.2 2.9 0.7 1.5 1.8 13.2
5. DeMarre Carroll 36 4.1 45.4% 38.8% 68.7% 1.5 4.1 5.6 1.4 1.3 0.9 2.4 11.7
6. Dennis Schroder 39 3.2 44.4% 24.5% 75.3% 0.3 1.6 1.9 3.2 0.9 1.8 1.5 8.1
7. Mike Scott 39 2.7 44.7% 38.5% 83.3% 0.5 2 2.5 1 0.2 0.7 1.3 7.4
8. Thabo Sefolosha 39 1.9 42% 28.6% 78.7% 1 3.4 4.5 1.6 1.1 0.7 1.4 5.39. Kent Bazemore 34 1.2 42.4% 44.1% 60% 0.1 2 2.1 0.6 0.3 0.6 1.3 3.4
10 Shelvin Mack 31 1.7 37.3% 30.6% 78.9% 0.2 1.3 1.5 2.8 0.4 0.9 0.5 4.5
11 Pero Antic 30 2 41.2% 33% 69.8% 0.9 1.9 2.8 0.9 0.3 0.9 2.3 6.3
12 Elton Brand 16 1.4 46.8% — 46.2% 1.1 1.9 3 0.5 0.5 0.4 1.5 3.1
13 Mike Muscala 14 1.9 53.1% 25% 85.7% 1.3 1 2.3 0.3 0.3 0.5 0.9 4.2
14 John Jenkins 3 1.7 45.5% 33.3% 100% — 0.7 0.7 — 0.3 0.3 0.7 4
15 Adreian Payne 3 0.7 28.6% — 50% 0.3 1 1.3 — 0.3 — 1.3 1.7
Phil has a philosophy which should make it easier for him to target specific players who can excel playing the way he wants to play. Phil has to start with his core and build out from there. The Hawks adding Millsap and Korver to Teague and Horford was a huge cornerstone to this teams success. Seeing how they are structured should give hope to the Knick Fans who are wondering how this can work. We will have a different mix of players with Phil doing the choosing but the principle should be the same. Productive, 2 way, well rounded players who can excel in a team oriented system.
you are forgetting that we already have Melo who is a plan fukker upper
misterearl wrote:Do Good Things Come to Those Who Wait?Knixkix - if Uncle Phil sees this as a three year project, it would appear that age will play a significant role in his decision-making. Basketball is a young mans game. The Hawks timing, whether by accident or providence, has afforded their roster to cohere with the core players around he same age. All of the core players, except Korver, are under 30.
Milsap is 29. Carroll and Horford are 28. Teague 26.
Our core guy will be 34 when the roster is finally in place.
Melo being on the older side is not that big of a problem. We need to get younger, but Melo will continue to be effective late in his career if his minutes are managed. Look at Dirk and Duncan, this is the way Melo has to be approached. Let's say this summer as an example the knicks draft Karl Towns (age 19) and sign Gordon Dragic (age 29) and Tabias Harris (age 23). In 3 years, when this core develops together, Melo (33), Gordan Dragic (31-32), Harris (26), Towns (22) will hopefully have great chemistry. Melo will be on the downside, but will still be able to score 20 ppg efficiently. Dragic will be a very good PG still putting up 15 ppg and 6-7 apg, and Harris and Towns will be coming into their own and putting up big numbers hopefully. This group is just an example but as Melo is starting to wind down, you will have guys coming into their primes who can make up for the loss of minutes and production. You see this in Dallas especially. Dirk is still getting his, but Monta and Parsons have provided the offense to allow him to play less minutes, have less usage, and still continue to be effective.
Knixkik wrote:misterearl wrote:ContinuityKnixkik - excellent summary and perspective. If Melo is our Al Horford, the question is whether Uncle Phil will acquire that special player who he is compatible with on the court... or select players with Melo as an afterthought.
Of the current roster, is there one player who meets the criteria of core player?
No there isn't, and that is the main problem. We have a ton of guys who can end up being quality role players and guys to round out the bench, but we don't have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th guy needed to put together that core, like Atl has.
horford is a two-way player and earns 12 mill
milsap is a two-way player and earns 9.5 mill
that's a total of 21.5 million for a core frontcourt
then there's teague who is turning into a two-way player
and
korver who, well, lets just say he is the ultimate advanced stat player with a TS% of 74 and a usg:ast of 1:1, which means he is a great team passer.
they got rid of josh smith and williams, both of whom are expensive, inefficient one-way players.
here with the knicks we have one player in carmelo anthony who you claim or imply is a core player, but he merely is a one-way player who yet earns more than both horford and milsap combined.
how can any player be considered a "core player" if he does not defend adequately?
carmelo anthony is not a core player so the honest response is that the knicks lack a single core player that is of starting-level caliber.
the knicks have a handful of potential two-way players who right now look to become solid bench-caliber personnel.
dk7th wrote:Knixkik wrote:misterearl wrote:ContinuityKnixkik - excellent summary and perspective. If Melo is our Al Horford, the question is whether Uncle Phil will acquire that special player who he is compatible with on the court... or select players with Melo as an afterthought.
Of the current roster, is there one player who meets the criteria of core player?
No there isn't, and that is the main problem. We have a ton of guys who can end up being quality role players and guys to round out the bench, but we don't have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th guy needed to put together that core, like Atl has.
horford is a two-way player and earns 12 mill
milsap is a two-way player and earns 9.5 mill
that's a total of 21.5 million for a core frontcourt
then there's teague who is turning into a two-way player
and
korver who, well, lets just say he is the ultimate advanced stat player with a TS% of 74 and a usg:ast of 1:1, which means he is a great team passer.
they got rid of josh smith and williams, both of whom are expensive, inefficient one-way players.
here with the knicks we have one player in carmelo anthony who you claim or imply is a core player, but he merely is a one-way player who yet earns more than both horford and milsap combined.
how can any player be considered a "core player" if he does not defend adequately?
carmelo anthony is not a core player so the honest response is that the knicks lack a single core player that is of starting-level caliber.
the knicks have a handful of potential two-way players who right now look to become solid bench-caliber personnel.
This is why nothing you say can be taken seriously.
Knixkik wrote:dk7th wrote:Knixkik wrote:misterearl wrote:ContinuityKnixkik - excellent summary and perspective. If Melo is our Al Horford, the question is whether Uncle Phil will acquire that special player who he is compatible with on the court... or select players with Melo as an afterthought.
Of the current roster, is there one player who meets the criteria of core player?
No there isn't, and that is the main problem. We have a ton of guys who can end up being quality role players and guys to round out the bench, but we don't have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th guy needed to put together that core, like Atl has.
horford is a two-way player and earns 12 mill
milsap is a two-way player and earns 9.5 mill
that's a total of 21.5 million for a core frontcourt
then there's teague who is turning into a two-way player
and
korver who, well, lets just say he is the ultimate advanced stat player with a TS% of 74 and a usg:ast of 1:1, which means he is a great team passer.
they got rid of josh smith and williams, both of whom are expensive, inefficient one-way players.
here with the knicks we have one player in carmelo anthony who you claim or imply is a core player, but he merely is a one-way player who yet earns more than both horford and milsap combined.
how can any player be considered a "core player" if he does not defend adequately?
carmelo anthony is not a core player so the honest response is that the knicks lack a single core player that is of starting-level caliber.
the knicks have a handful of potential two-way players who right now look to become solid bench-caliber personnel.
This is why nothing you say can be taken seriously.
i honestly think the joke's on you and others who share your point of view, but tell me... what is it about carmelo anthony that allows him to earn the right to start on a championship-level team? the money he being overpaid? or is it something else?
i see a very good sixth man being paid more than twice of what he is worth.
dk7th wrote:Knixkik wrote:dk7th wrote:Knixkik wrote:misterearl wrote:ContinuityKnixkik - excellent summary and perspective. If Melo is our Al Horford, the question is whether Uncle Phil will acquire that special player who he is compatible with on the court... or select players with Melo as an afterthought.
Of the current roster, is there one player who meets the criteria of core player?
No there isn't, and that is the main problem. We have a ton of guys who can end up being quality role players and guys to round out the bench, but we don't have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th guy needed to put together that core, like Atl has.
horford is a two-way player and earns 12 mill
milsap is a two-way player and earns 9.5 mill
that's a total of 21.5 million for a core frontcourt
then there's teague who is turning into a two-way player
and
korver who, well, lets just say he is the ultimate advanced stat player with a TS% of 74 and a usg:ast of 1:1, which means he is a great team passer.
they got rid of josh smith and williams, both of whom are expensive, inefficient one-way players.
here with the knicks we have one player in carmelo anthony who you claim or imply is a core player, but he merely is a one-way player who yet earns more than both horford and milsap combined.
how can any player be considered a "core player" if he does not defend adequately?
carmelo anthony is not a core player so the honest response is that the knicks lack a single core player that is of starting-level caliber.
the knicks have a handful of potential two-way players who right now look to become solid bench-caliber personnel.
This is why nothing you say can be taken seriously.
i honestly think the joke's on you and others who share your point of view, but tell me... what is it about carmelo anthony that allows him to earn the right to start on a championship-level team? the money he being overpaid? or is it something else?
i see a very good sixth man being paid more than twice of what he is worth.
so you don't think that he is good enough to start on a championship team??
dk7th wrote:Knixkik wrote:dk7th wrote:Knixkik wrote:misterearl wrote:ContinuityKnixkik - excellent summary and perspective. If Melo is our Al Horford, the question is whether Uncle Phil will acquire that special player who he is compatible with on the court... or select players with Melo as an afterthought.
Of the current roster, is there one player who meets the criteria of core player?
No there isn't, and that is the main problem. We have a ton of guys who can end up being quality role players and guys to round out the bench, but we don't have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th guy needed to put together that core, like Atl has.
horford is a two-way player and earns 12 mill
milsap is a two-way player and earns 9.5 mill
that's a total of 21.5 million for a core frontcourt
then there's teague who is turning into a two-way player
and
korver who, well, lets just say he is the ultimate advanced stat player with a TS% of 74 and a usg:ast of 1:1, which means he is a great team passer.
they got rid of josh smith and williams, both of whom are expensive, inefficient one-way players.
here with the knicks we have one player in carmelo anthony who you claim or imply is a core player, but he merely is a one-way player who yet earns more than both horford and milsap combined.
how can any player be considered a "core player" if he does not defend adequately?
carmelo anthony is not a core player so the honest response is that the knicks lack a single core player that is of starting-level caliber.
the knicks have a handful of potential two-way players who right now look to become solid bench-caliber personnel.
This is why nothing you say can be taken seriously.
i honestly think the joke's on you and others who share your point of view, but tell me... what is it about carmelo anthony that allows him to earn the right to start on a championship-level team? the money he being overpaid? or is it something else?
i see a very good sixth man being paid more than twice of what he is worth.
There isn't one NBA front office exec who doesn't view Melo as a capable starting player on a championship level team. So maybe you are smarter than them all, who knows.
