STATMELO wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
This isn't true...
Sure is. Use your eyes and look around the league. Who's earned more money? Tony Allen or kevin marten? Jamal crawford or Bruce Bowen? We could do this all day. One great scorer can take over a game. One great defender can guard one guy. The truly special ones are elite at both. Did Ben Wallace ever earn the max? Did Rodman?
I'm not saying anything profound here.
Yes you can rally a group of guys to defend as a team but if you can't score your going to lose. How many times has Thibs been beaten by a lower seed in the playoffs?
mreinman wrote:dk7th wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
wow 
depends on the coach. Coaches like MDA want to run you out of the building. Defense was certainly taking a back seat.
Those Suns teams weren't bad defensively. Look at the stats.. They were middle of the road in opponents points per possession. But as we have seen with the Knicks it's tough to defend five guys. Much easier to defend one or two though isn't it.
Scoring is huge. Still is. Always will be. NBA isn't the Nfl
fishmike wrote:mreinman wrote:dk7th wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
wow
depends on the coach. Coaches like MDA want to run you out of the building. Defense was certainly taking a back seat.
Those Suns teams weren't bad defensively. Look at the stats.. They were middle of the road in opponents points per possession. But as we have seen with the Knicks it's tough to defend five guys. Much easier to defend one or two though isn't it. Scoring is huge. Still is. Always will be. NBA isn't the Nfl
well ... efficient scoring is huge 
inefficient scoring ain't cool anymore.
fishmike wrote:STATMELO wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
This isn't true...
Sure is. Use your eyes and look around the league. Who's earned more money? Tony Allen or kevin marten? Jamal crawford or Bruce Bowen? We could do this all day. One great scorer can take over a game. One great defender can guard one guy. The truly special ones are elite at both. Did Ben Wallace ever earn the max? Did Rodman?I'm not saying anything profound here.
Yes you can rally a group of guys to defend as a team but if you can't score your going to lose. How many times has Thibs been beaten by a lower seed in the playoffs?
That means nothing terrible logic. In the history of this game all the champions have been top 10 defenses or fringe top 10 defenses. The number one seeds in both conferences rank in the top 3 of all defensive metrics.
Do you know why San Antonio beat Miami last year? Because Miami had went from a top defense to ranking 16th in the league in FG% and 11th in points per 100 possession middle of the pack while San Antonio ranked in the top 5 of the league on both ends. You will not win without defense.
It's funny you bring up Chicago but they have overachieved year after year without Rose...because of their defense. Look how much better Houston's been with Beverley and Ariza rather than Parsons and Lin.
F500ONE wrote:dk7th wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
wow
DK I would let that one slide no need to itemize it
Hey just so you know I'll be headed to the garage in a bit
Just got through dashing with some seasoning, a pinch of salt, soft squeeze of lemon, and light spread of butter
The FISH will be ready, let me know if I should bring some Hot Sauce
no hot sauce thanks but let me guess the fish is a bottom-feeding sole with two eyes on one side of its head?
this explains so much.
kerrrannnnnggg! yeah that's right i turned up the fender to eleven.
When Deng went to Cleveland, he looked to be 100 years old..Check the odometer on those Chicago players..
STATMELO wrote:fishmike wrote:STATMELO wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
This isn't true...
Sure is. Use your eyes and look around the league. Who's earned more money? Tony Allen or kevin marten? Jamal crawford or Bruce Bowen? We could do this all day. One great scorer can take over a game. One great defender can guard one guy. The truly special ones are elite at both. Did Ben Wallace ever earn the max? Did Rodman?I'm not saying anything profound here.
Yes you can rally a group of guys to defend as a team but if you can't score your going to lose. How many times has Thibs been beaten by a lower seed in the playoffs?
That means nothing terrible logic. In the history of this game all the champions have been top 10 defenses or fringe top 10 defenses. The number one seeds in both conferences rank in the top 3 of all defensive metrics.
Do you know why San Antonio beat Miami last year? Because Miami had went from a top defense to ranking 16th in the league in FG% and 11th in points per 100 possession middle of the pack while San Antonio ranked in the top 5 of the league on both ends. You will not win without defense.
It's funny you bring up Chicago but they have overachieved year after year without Rose...because of their defense. Look how much better Houston's been with Beverley and Ariza rather than Parsons and Lin.
I'm not defending it. I'm pointing out the reality. Did I saw defense doesn't matter? No.. I said scoring is more valued and I don't need to give more examples... You follow?
fishmike wrote:STATMELO wrote:fishmike wrote:STATMELO wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
This isn't true...
Sure is. Use your eyes and look around the league. Who's earned more money? Tony Allen or kevin marten? Jamal crawford or Bruce Bowen? We could do this all day. One great scorer can take over a game. One great defender can guard one guy. The truly special ones are elite at both. Did Ben Wallace ever earn the max? Did Rodman?I'm not saying anything profound here.
Yes you can rally a group of guys to defend as a team but if you can't score your going to lose. How many times has Thibs been beaten by a lower seed in the playoffs?
That means nothing terrible logic. In the history of this game all the champions have been top 10 defenses or fringe top 10 defenses. The number one seeds in both conferences rank in the top 3 of all defensive metrics.
Do you know why San Antonio beat Miami last year? Because Miami had went from a top defense to ranking 16th in the league in FG% and 11th in points per 100 possession middle of the pack while San Antonio ranked in the top 5 of the league on both ends. You will not win without defense.
It's funny you bring up Chicago but they have overachieved year after year without Rose...because of their defense. Look how much better Houston's been with Beverley and Ariza rather than Parsons and Lin.
I'm not defending it. I'm pointing out the reality. Did I saw defense doesn't matter? No.. I said scoring is more valued and I don't need to give more examples... You follow?
It's not reality the rhetoric is just wrong but carry on...if that's how you feel.
Trevor Ariza makes more money than Jamal Crawford, Ben Wallace was making $16 million dollars per season at one point by the way. The point is Thibs style is not sustainable in the league, in the same league where defense wins championships.
fishmike wrote:STATMELO wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
This isn't true...
Sure is. Use your eyes and look around the league. Who's earned more money? Tony Allen or kevin marten? Jamal crawford or Bruce Bowen? We could do this all day. One great scorer can take over a game. One great defender can guard one guy. The truly special ones are elite at both. Did Ben Wallace ever earn the max? Did Rodman?I'm not saying anything profound here.
Yes you can rally a group of guys to defend as a team but if you can't score your going to lose. How many times has Thibs been beaten by a lower seed in the playoffs?
Not sure you made your point... seems that you used the wrong players to make your comparison. Tony Allen has been a part of better teams than Martin. How many title teams has Crawford been on compared to Bowen? How many great teams was Rodman on? Did Wallace win a title?
Many "great" scorers fatten their averages up against poor teams. Others are on poor teams and can take enough shots to fatten their average.
Yeah, they seem to pay more for points, but most championship teams play good D.
You can negate a great scorer with a great defender. Look what Boston did with James. They had Posey and Allen on that team- both defensive specialists. Posey was also on a Miami team that won a title.
Got to score more than your opponent to win, but keeping your opponent's total lower than yours with good D can make things a lot easier.
fishmike wrote:STATMELO wrote:fishmike wrote:STATMELO wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
This isn't true...
Sure is. Use your eyes and look around the league. Who's earned more money? Tony Allen or kevin marten? Jamal crawford or Bruce Bowen? We could do this all day. One great scorer can take over a game. One great defender can guard one guy. The truly special ones are elite at both. Did Ben Wallace ever earn the max? Did Rodman?I'm not saying anything profound here.
Yes you can rally a group of guys to defend as a team but if you can't score your going to lose. How many times has Thibs been beaten by a lower seed in the playoffs?
That means nothing terrible logic. In the history of this game all the champions have been top 10 defenses or fringe top 10 defenses. The number one seeds in both conferences rank in the top 3 of all defensive metrics.
Do you know why San Antonio beat Miami last year? Because Miami had went from a top defense to ranking 16th in the league in FG% and 11th in points per 100 possession middle of the pack while San Antonio ranked in the top 5 of the league on both ends. You will not win without defense.
It's funny you bring up Chicago but they have overachieved year after year without Rose...because of their defense. Look how much better Houston's been with Beverley and Ariza rather than Parsons and Lin.
I'm not defending it. I'm pointing out the reality. Did I saw defense doesn't matter? No.. I said scoring is more valued and I don't need to give more examples... You follow?
yeah... "reality" which for you means what "the market will bear." too bad what "the market will bear" has no bearing on actual acumen qua winning. still haven't figured that one out, have you....
stupid and cynical is no way to go through life, flounder.
dk7th wrote:F500ONE wrote:dk7th wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
wow
DK I would let that one slide no need to itemize it
Hey just so you know I'll be headed to the garage in a bit
Just got through dashing with some seasoning, a pinch of salt, soft squeeze of lemon, and light spread of butter
The FISH will be ready, let me know if I should bring some Hot Sauce
no hot sauce thanks but let me guess the fish is a bottom-feeding sole with two eyes on one side of its head?
this explains so much.
kerrrannnnnggg! yeah that's right i turned up the fender to eleven.
when are you two getting married? thibs goes before d-rose. it's a players league. case in point d'antoni gone from NY and LAL.
Cartman718 wrote:dk7th wrote:F500ONE wrote:dk7th wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
wow
DK I would let that one slide no need to itemize it
Hey just so you know I'll be headed to the garage in a bit
Just got through dashing with some seasoning, a pinch of salt, soft squeeze of lemon, and light spread of butter
The FISH will be ready, let me know if I should bring some Hot Sauce
no hot sauce thanks but let me guess the fish is a bottom-feeding sole with two eyes on one side of its head?
this explains so much.
kerrrannnnnggg! yeah that's right i turned up the fender to eleven.
when are you two getting married? thibs goes before d-rose. it's a players league. case in point d'antoni gone from NY and LAL.
if thibs goes before d-rose then it only underscores and confirms for me personally the extant banal cynicism that david stern introduced to utterly corrupt this professional sport.
if rose goes before thibs then it means there's hope that the notion of "culture change" actually has traction, at least outside of new york. bonus points: you'd be wrong.
thibs is a better leader than d'antoni. leadership means something when it comes to winning.
rose is not a leader... have you noticed? meanwhile noah is.
who would replace thibs if he was to go tho....
dk7th wrote:F500ONE wrote:dk7th wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
wow
DK I would let that one slide no need to itemize it
Hey just so you know I'll be headed to the garage in a bit
Just got through dashing with some seasoning, a pinch of salt, soft squeeze of lemon, and light spread of butter
The FISH will be ready, let me know if I should bring some Hot Sauce
no hot sauce thanks but let me guess the fish is a bottom-feeding sole with two eyes on one side of its head?
this explains so much.
kerrrannnnnggg! yeah that's right i turned up the fender to eleven.
Took a little longer to cook because it kept Flopping
Even after the head was cut off, the Sucker just wouldn't go quietly
But it's filleted, you can sauce it up as you like with your own
dk7th wrote:Cartman718 wrote:dk7th wrote:F500ONE wrote:dk7th wrote:fishmike wrote:Thibs style is not really sustainable in the league unless your winning titles AND have the support of your 2-3 best players. While defense is valued its still a far distant 2nd to scoring.
wow
DK I would let that one slide no need to itemize it
Hey just so you know I'll be headed to the garage in a bit
Just got through dashing with some seasoning, a pinch of salt, soft squeeze of lemon, and light spread of butter
The FISH will be ready, let me know if I should bring some Hot Sauce
no hot sauce thanks but let me guess the fish is a bottom-feeding sole with two eyes on one side of its head?
this explains so much.
kerrrannnnnggg! yeah that's right i turned up the fender to eleven.
when are you two getting married? thibs goes before d-rose. it's a players league. case in point d'antoni gone from NY and LAL.
if thibs goes before d-rose then it only underscores and confirms for me personally the extant banal cynicism that david stern introduced to utterly corrupt this professional sport.
if rose goes before thibs then it means there's hope that the notion of "culture change" actually has traction, at least outside of new york. bonus points: you'd be wrong.
thibs is a better leader than d'antoni. leadership means something when it comes to winning.
rose is not a leader... have you noticed? meanwhile noah is.
no one questioned rose not being a leader when he was voted mvp. now suddenly there are doubts lol. ijs
Bring him as Defense coordinator, pay him whatever he wants
Thanks for the insight fish....If we ever get together for pickup ball....i will make sure to not pick you up. Then i will shut you down to show you the value of defense.
Your reasoning for offense vs defense using salary comparisons is way off base. Offensive players make more money because fans want to be entertained. But if you want to win, a good coach will always value defense over offense.
Defense is consistent because its all about effort.
Offense will always be inconsistent.
I cant count how many championship games we won after i told the team not to worry about offense....use your energy to stop them on defense and we win. Thats what a solid 2way player can do for you.
The same fans that value offense over defense are the same fans that continues to pick Lin as the starting guard for the west. Money changed the foundation of basketball so you cant use money to measure how important defense is. But theres no need to go back and forth....we will agree to disagree.
blkexec wrote:Thanks for the insight fish....If we ever get together for pickup ball....i will make sure to not pick you up. Then i will shut you down to show you the value of defense.Your reasoning for offense vs defense using salary comparisons is way off base. Offensive players make more money because fans want to be entertained. But if you want to win, a good coach will always value defense over offense.
Defense is consistent because its all about effort.
Offense will always be inconsistent.
I cant count how many championship games we won after i told the team not to worry about offense....use your energy to stop them on defense and we win. Thats what a solid 2way player can do for you.
The same fans that value offense over defense are the same fans that continues to pick Lin as the starting guard for the west. Money changed the foundation of basketball so you cant use money to measure how important defense is. But theres no need to go back and forth....we will agree to disagree.
Great insight. When your offense is not working out for you or you are having a bad game, you will always have defense to fall back on, because as you said it does not change because as long as your still using your good defensive fundamentals it can't fail.
blkexec wrote:Thanks for the insight fish....If we ever get together for pickup ball....i will make sure to not pick you up. Then i will shut you down to show you the value of defense.Your reasoning for offense vs defense using salary comparisons is way off base. Offensive players make more money because fans want to be entertained. But if you want to win, a good coach will always value defense over offense.
Defense is consistent because its all about effort.
Offense will always be inconsistent.
I cant count how many championship games we won after i told the team not to worry about offense....use your energy to stop them on defense and we win. Thats what a solid 2way player can do for you.
The same fans that value offense over defense are the same fans that continues to pick Lin as the starting guard for the west. Money changed the foundation of basketball so you cant use money to measure how important defense is. But theres no need to go back and forth....we will agree to disagree.
You missed the point completely. Where did I say I value scoring more? I said "it's valued more." Then I offered some examples of no defense playing money guys who out earn defensive guys who are better players.
You don't have to explain to me. I grew up on Giants of the 80s. Defense is religion to me. But look around the league.. If defense is valued as you say why are the scorers making the loot?
My observation was simple.. Despite defense winning championships who gets paid? The scorers. Do you disagree?
Five of last 10 MVPs were scorers. Nash 2x, Rose, Dirk, and Durant. KD is a decent defender to be sure but he won an MVP for scoring.
Nobody is saying defense isn't important. I said its still a second to scoring. Its a scoring league. Look at the rules changes since the 90s.. It's for more scoring.
