At the very least we could have gotten a #2 for each of them.
We did get trade exceptions... right? Will they be worth anything down the line?
Papabear wrote:fitzfarm wrote:Papabear wrote:holfresh wrote:Papabear wrote:H1AND1 wrote:The point isn't that Lebron and the Cavs wanted JR so badly that we couldve gotten more from them. It's that they wanted him so badly and also knew that not one other team in the league would've given up anything of substance for him in a deal (NY would have to add the asset for another team to assume the contract). And so the Cavs simply benefitted by going after a guy that they knew could be had + extras. It doesn't prove other teams wouldve given up anything for him. The Cavs were lucky they wanted a guy who they were in a position to get plus sweeteners so long as they took the negotiating stance that every other NBA team was taking (ie: Well take JR but it'll cost you +1 aka Shump, a pick, etc).
If some other GM was offering anything of substance for JR we don't think the Knicks would've jumped on the deal in a hot second? This situation was nothing compared to the Mozgoz deal. Plenty of other teams would've traded actual assets for Mozgoz. Cleveland overpaid for him to outbid everyone else because they are in win now mode and were afraid they'd lose out. The two deals have no relation to each other.
Papabear Says
Then we should have waited. Someone would have broken down.
In retrospect..Cleveland would have paid a fortune for Tyson Chandler..
Papabear SaysI agree! That Tyson Chandler deal was a bad one. I'm watching Cleveland and now with JR Smith and Shump which we get nothing for will probably win a ring before the Knicks. And as you know when we get rid of players they seem to get better. JR is kicking butt.
Lol jr and shump crumble under pressure .. Very low iq players Cleveland won't get any value for them as well.. Cleveland winning a championship lol any of the top 8 teams in the west will beat Cleveland with ease esp after jr ruins there chemistry in crunch time and Iman disappears and cries in the corner.... Iman and jr are nothing to get upset about there low iq me first players.. Not worthy of triangle play. No other team could have gotten more value for them, we are super lucky to get rid of them esp jrs contract
Papabear SaysThe triangle?? First you need players who can nail down shots. That we do not have. The way Cleveland is playing they will to to the finals. Ohh with JR and Shump. 
jr and shump can nail shots lol both of them are streaky as hell... This lucky stroke that jr is on is temporary just like he did with us when he came to the Knicks before then he played his way out of Denver's rotation... Dude is a aweful teammate it's only a matter of time before he ruins there clubhouse... He also is a extremely low iq player so is shump who will never be more then a bench role player ... These two are garbage we should thank Cleveland for taking out our trash... And no way Cleveland makes it to the finals let alone beats a western team
H1AND1 wrote:The point isn't that Lebron and the Cavs wanted JR so badly that we couldve gotten more from them. It's that they wanted him so badly and also knew that not one other team in the league would've given up anything of substance for him in a deal (NY would have to add the asset for another team to assume the contract). And so the Cavs simply benefitted by going after a guy that they knew could be had + extras. It doesn't prove other teams wouldve given up anything for him. The Cavs were lucky they wanted a guy who they were in a position to get plus sweeteners so long as they took the negotiating stance that every other NBA team was taking (ie: Well take JR but it'll cost you +1 aka Shump, a pick, etc).
If some other GM was offering anything of substance for JR we don't think the Knicks would've jumped on the deal in a hot second? This situation was nothing compared to the Mozgoz deal. Plenty of other teams would've traded actual assets for Mozgoz. Cleveland overpaid for him to outbid everyone else because they are in win now mode and were afraid they'd lose out. The two deals have no relation to each other.
well said.
And btw, the cavs are doing MUCH better with MOZ there.
It is leverage, we have none
I am sure Phil Jackson has tried to move both JR Smith, Iman, and Tyson Chandler, however, he thought he could have got more
As he continued to play worse and worse, from last season to now, the leverage got worse
What those guys do now with their current teams are irrelevent as we were quite patient in hoping their games would elevate, some in contract years
I personally do not think fully running the triangle helped either, not with the roster we had in place
While Kerr was smart enough to take philosophies from all his experiences as a student of the game and combined it with the skills and fit of his roster, he tweaked a bit of everything and he is a genious that knew how to get the most of his roster and utilize his depth while developing future talents as well (like Poppavich has been doing for many years)
Unfortunately, Phil Jackson and/or Dolan thought they had leverage over Kerr with his lack of experience and didn't lock him up by giving him an offering he couldn't turn down
Meanwhile, after the 2billion evaluation, they decided to not let Fisher walk and have the possibility to increase their chances of recruiting Durant in the future with Fish
So while I still believe that Iman, Chandler, JR Smith, and whoever, may have talents, we were horrible together and it was unlikely that we would have gotten anything that we think we could have got from the way they play now
How can JR Smith, Chandler, Udrih, now Iman, INSTANTLY get better as they leave our team, and go to another team, is the better question
It seems to be consistent that those guys skills were not the problem....
GustavBahler wrote:Cleveland was desperate for a defensive big when Varejao went down. Desperation turned into giving up two first round picks for Moz. I doubt Mozgov would have fetched as much in other trade scenarios. A single first rounder maybe.
JVG today said that he could not understand why Denver let him go, even for the 2 picks.
RonRon wrote:It is leverage, we have none
I am sure Phil Jackson has tried to move both JR Smith, Iman, and Tyson Chandler, however, he thought he could have got more
As he continued to play worse and worse, from last season to now, the leverage got worse
What those guys do now with their current teams are irrelevent as we were quite patient in hoping their games would elevate, some in contract years
I personally do not think fully running the triangle helped either, not with the roster we had in place
While Kerr was smart enough to take philosophies from all his experiences as a student of the game and combined it with the skills and fit of his roster, he tweaked a bit of everything and he is a genious that knew how to get the most of his roster and utilize his depth while developing future talents as well (like Poppavich has been doing for many years)
Unfortunately, Phil Jackson and/or Dolan thought they had leverage over Kerr with his lack of experience and didn't lock him up by giving him an offering he couldn't turn down
Meanwhile, after the 2billion evaluation, they decided to not let Fisher walk and have the possibility to increase their chances of recruiting Durant in the future with Fish
So while I still believe that Iman, Chandler, JR Smith, and whoever, may have talents, we were horrible together and it was unlikely that we would have gotten anything that we think we could have got from the way they play now
How can JR Smith, Chandler, Udrih, now Iman, INSTANTLY get better as they leave our team, and go to another team, is the better question
It seems to be consistent that those guys skills were not the problem....
JR is a much better player when assisted. So are most players.
The issue here is that we don't have guards that can break down the defense and create for others.
We have a forward that can, he just would rather shoot.
mreinman wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Cleveland was desperate for a defensive big when Varejao went down. Desperation turned into giving up two first round picks for Moz. I doubt Mozgov would have fetched as much in other trade scenarios. A single first rounder maybe.
JVG today said that he could not understand why Denver let him go, even for the 2 picks.
JVG has a habit of talking out of you know where
mreinman wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Cleveland was desperate for a defensive big when Varejao went down. Desperation turned into giving up two first round picks for Moz. I doubt Mozgov would have fetched as much in other trade scenarios. A single first rounder maybe.
JVG today said that he could not understand why Denver let him go, even for the 2 picks.
Denver had plenty of time to evaluate Moz. I wouldnt want Phil to give up 2 first rounders for him.
GustavBahler wrote:mreinman wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Cleveland was desperate for a defensive big when Varejao went down. Desperation turned into giving up two first round picks for Moz. I doubt Mozgov would have fetched as much in other trade scenarios. A single first rounder maybe.
JVG today said that he could not understand why Denver let him go, even for the 2 picks.
Denver had plenty of time to evaluate Moz. I wouldnt want Phil to give up 2 first rounders for him.
No, but the Cleveland window is really small. They need to win now.
mreinman wrote:GustavBahler wrote:mreinman wrote:GustavBahler wrote:Cleveland was desperate for a defensive big when Varejao went down. Desperation turned into giving up two first round picks for Moz. I doubt Mozgov would have fetched as much in other trade scenarios. A single first rounder maybe.
JVG today said that he could not understand why Denver let him go, even for the 2 picks.
Denver had plenty of time to evaluate Moz. I wouldnt want Phil to give up 2 first rounders for him.
No, but the Cleveland window is really small. They need to win now.
I agree, thats why I understand why they did it. Wouldnt have done it if Varejao didnt go down. Looks like a good fit so far.
mreinman wrote:H1AND1 wrote:The point isn't that Lebron and the Cavs wanted JR so badly that we couldve gotten more from them. It's that they wanted him so badly and also knew that not one other team in the league would've given up anything of substance for him in a deal (NY would have to add the asset for another team to assume the contract). And so the Cavs simply benefitted by going after a guy that they knew could be had + extras. It doesn't prove other teams wouldve given up anything for him. The Cavs were lucky they wanted a guy who they were in a position to get plus sweeteners so long as they took the negotiating stance that every other NBA team was taking (ie: Well take JR but it'll cost you +1 aka Shump, a pick, etc).
If some other GM was offering anything of substance for JR we don't think the Knicks would've jumped on the deal in a hot second? This situation was nothing compared to the Mozgoz deal. Plenty of other teams would've traded actual assets for Mozgoz. Cleveland overpaid for him to outbid everyone else because they are in win now mode and were afraid they'd lose out. The two deals have no relation to each other.
well said.
And btw, the cavs are doing MUCH better with MOZ there.
Knowing that a team was in "Win Now Mode" and were hella shaky
When making trade requests should have
Been dsiscerned by a keen exec and thus produced more than
A 2019 2nd in return
F500ONE wrote:mreinman wrote:H1AND1 wrote:The point isn't that Lebron and the Cavs wanted JR so badly that we couldve gotten more from them. It's that they wanted him so badly and also knew that not one other team in the league would've given up anything of substance for him in a deal (NY would have to add the asset for another team to assume the contract). And so the Cavs simply benefitted by going after a guy that they knew could be had + extras. It doesn't prove other teams wouldve given up anything for him. The Cavs were lucky they wanted a guy who they were in a position to get plus sweeteners so long as they took the negotiating stance that every other NBA team was taking (ie: Well take JR but it'll cost you +1 aka Shump, a pick, etc).
If some other GM was offering anything of substance for JR we don't think the Knicks would've jumped on the deal in a hot second? This situation was nothing compared to the Mozgoz deal. Plenty of other teams would've traded actual assets for Mozgoz. Cleveland overpaid for him to outbid everyone else because they are in win now mode and were afraid they'd lose out. The two deals have no relation to each other.
well said.
And btw, the cavs are doing MUCH better with MOZ there.
Knowing that a team was in "Win Now Mode" and were hella shaky
When making trade requests should have
Been dsiscerned by a keen exec and thus produced more than
A 2019 2nd in return
Knicks might have been able to get Waiters but the move seemed to be motivated by cap space and to move bad character guys out. Not sure about Waiters character but I think he is a tremendous talent.
mreinman wrote:RonRon wrote:It is leverage, we have none
I am sure Phil Jackson has tried to move both JR Smith, Iman, and Tyson Chandler, however, he thought he could have got more
As he continued to play worse and worse, from last season to now, the leverage got worse
What those guys do now with their current teams are irrelevent as we were quite patient in hoping their games would elevate, some in contract years
I personally do not think fully running the triangle helped either, not with the roster we had in place
While Kerr was smart enough to take philosophies from all his experiences as a student of the game and combined it with the skills and fit of his roster, he tweaked a bit of everything and he is a genious that knew how to get the most of his roster and utilize his depth while developing future talents as well (like Poppavich has been doing for many years)
Unfortunately, Phil Jackson and/or Dolan thought they had leverage over Kerr with his lack of experience and didn't lock him up by giving him an offering he couldn't turn down
Meanwhile, after the 2billion evaluation, they decided to not let Fisher walk and have the possibility to increase their chances of recruiting Durant in the future with Fish
So while I still believe that Iman, Chandler, JR Smith, and whoever, may have talents, we were horrible together and it was unlikely that we would have gotten anything that we think we could have got from the way they play now
How can JR Smith, Chandler, Udrih, now Iman, INSTANTLY get better as they leave our team, and go to another team, is the better question
It seems to be consistent that those guys skills were not the problem....
JR is a much better player when assisted. So are most players.
The issue here is that we don't have guards that can break down the defense and create for others.
We have a forward that can, he just would rather shoot.
Point is many players that we had high expectations on have instinct success when they leave NY
It could be a combination of all but whether it is our lack of talent on our team, whether we lacked a franchise talent, whether we ran systems that didn't work well with the players we had, whether the roles they had on our team were not utilized correctly and/or a good mix with the players we had
It didn't make a difference because the values they had while on our roster were low as they should be because none of them were producing as individuals and we were not producing as a team
So what these players do while on other teams right now is irrelevent
There should be no question that these players have talent but we were unable to fully utilize their strengths and hide their weakness's the way we played and with the talent we had....
JR Smith COULD always shoot, his shot selection is horrible, but if you have multiple players that can take the pressure of him and create shots, while spreading the floor, and take the pressure of him, while providing the leadership we lacked, he could be a decent player
Instead when he was here, often both CA and JR Smith would take turns going 1v1, as neither players were able to create plays for the team
Tyson Chandler could play defense and rebound, and could be threat when running the PnR, however, we didn't have players that could play defense as a team for TEAM DEFENSE, and enough 1v1 players that could hold their own and rebound while playing with him
Same with Iman Shumpert, as we will see...
When it comes down to it, Lebron and CA are completetly differnt players, and having players that could do multiple things, defend multiple positions, and provide leadership, and the effect these players bring would be different
RonRon wrote:mreinman wrote:RonRon wrote:It is leverage, we have none
I am sure Phil Jackson has tried to move both JR Smith, Iman, and Tyson Chandler, however, he thought he could have got more
As he continued to play worse and worse, from last season to now, the leverage got worse
What those guys do now with their current teams are irrelevent as we were quite patient in hoping their games would elevate, some in contract years
I personally do not think fully running the triangle helped either, not with the roster we had in place
While Kerr was smart enough to take philosophies from all his experiences as a student of the game and combined it with the skills and fit of his roster, he tweaked a bit of everything and he is a genious that knew how to get the most of his roster and utilize his depth while developing future talents as well (like Poppavich has been doing for many years)
Unfortunately, Phil Jackson and/or Dolan thought they had leverage over Kerr with his lack of experience and didn't lock him up by giving him an offering he couldn't turn down
Meanwhile, after the 2billion evaluation, they decided to not let Fisher walk and have the possibility to increase their chances of recruiting Durant in the future with Fish
So while I still believe that Iman, Chandler, JR Smith, and whoever, may have talents, we were horrible together and it was unlikely that we would have gotten anything that we think we could have got from the way they play now
How can JR Smith, Chandler, Udrih, now Iman, INSTANTLY get better as they leave our team, and go to another team, is the better question
It seems to be consistent that those guys skills were not the problem....
JR is a much better player when assisted. So are most players.
The issue here is that we don't have guards that can break down the defense and create for others.
We have a forward that can, he just would rather shoot.
Point is many players that we had high expectations on have instinct success when they leave NY
It could be a combination of all but whether it is our lack of talent on our team, whether we lacked a franchise talent, whether we ran systems that didn't work well with the players we had, whether the roles they had on our team were not utilized correctly and/or a good mix with the players we had
It didn't make a difference because the values they had while on our roster were low as they should be because none of them were producing as individuals and we were not producing as a team
So what these players do while on other teams right now is irrelevent
There should be no question that these players have talent but we were unable to fully utilize their strengths and hide their weakness's the way we played and with the talent we had....
JR Smith COULD always shoot, his shot selection is horrible, but if you have multiple players that can take the pressure of him and create shots, while spreading the floor, and take the pressure of him, while providing the leadership we lacked, he could be a decent player
Instead when he was here, often both CA and JR Smith would take turns going 1v1, as neither players were able to create plays for the team
Tyson Chandler could play defense and rebound, and could be threat when running the PnR, however, we didn't have players that could play defense as a team for TEAM DEFENSE, and enough 1v1 players that could hold their own and rebound while playing with him
Same with Iman Shumpert, as we will see...
When it comes down to it, Lebron and CA are completetly differnt players, and having players that could do multiple things, defend multiple positions, and provide leadership, and the effect these players bring would be different
all true. can't argue with any of that.
thats why I wanted lowry here so badly. He would have been our leader and made/forced everyone to be better players.
We need to get a PG/Floor leader in here.
Still pining for lowrey?? Move on brother...........
No more trading no. 1 picks unless it puts you further into contention!!!!!
Lowrey I doubt would have pushed us that far.
Nalod wrote:Still pining for lowrey?? Move on brother...........
No more trading no. 1 picks unless it puts you further into contention!!!!!
Lowrey I doubt would have pushed us that far.
I will ... one day ... maybe
Mozgov goes for 2 but we could not give up one for a real game changer?
mreinman wrote:RonRon wrote:mreinman wrote:RonRon wrote:It is leverage, we have none
I am sure Phil Jackson has tried to move both JR Smith, Iman, and Tyson Chandler, however, he thought he could have got more
As he continued to play worse and worse, from last season to now, the leverage got worse
What those guys do now with their current teams are irrelevent as we were quite patient in hoping their games would elevate, some in contract years
I personally do not think fully running the triangle helped either, not with the roster we had in place
While Kerr was smart enough to take philosophies from all his experiences as a student of the game and combined it with the skills and fit of his roster, he tweaked a bit of everything and he is a genious that knew how to get the most of his roster and utilize his depth while developing future talents as well (like Poppavich has been doing for many years)
Unfortunately, Phil Jackson and/or Dolan thought they had leverage over Kerr with his lack of experience and didn't lock him up by giving him an offering he couldn't turn down
Meanwhile, after the 2billion evaluation, they decided to not let Fisher walk and have the possibility to increase their chances of recruiting Durant in the future with Fish
So while I still believe that Iman, Chandler, JR Smith, and whoever, may have talents, we were horrible together and it was unlikely that we would have gotten anything that we think we could have got from the way they play now
How can JR Smith, Chandler, Udrih, now Iman, INSTANTLY get better as they leave our team, and go to another team, is the better question
It seems to be consistent that those guys skills were not the problem....
JR is a much better player when assisted. So are most players.
The issue here is that we don't have guards that can break down the defense and create for others.
We have a forward that can, he just would rather shoot.
Point is many players that we had high expectations on have instinct success when they leave NY
It could be a combination of all but whether it is our lack of talent on our team, whether we lacked a franchise talent, whether we ran systems that didn't work well with the players we had, whether the roles they had on our team were not utilized correctly and/or a good mix with the players we had
It didn't make a difference because the values they had while on our roster were low as they should be because none of them were producing as individuals and we were not producing as a team
So what these players do while on other teams right now is irrelevent
There should be no question that these players have talent but we were unable to fully utilize their strengths and hide their weakness's the way we played and with the talent we had....
JR Smith COULD always shoot, his shot selection is horrible, but if you have multiple players that can take the pressure of him and create shots, while spreading the floor, and take the pressure of him, while providing the leadership we lacked, he could be a decent player
Instead when he was here, often both CA and JR Smith would take turns going 1v1, as neither players were able to create plays for the team
Tyson Chandler could play defense and rebound, and could be threat when running the PnR, however, we didn't have players that could play defense as a team for TEAM DEFENSE, and enough 1v1 players that could hold their own and rebound while playing with him
Same with Iman Shumpert, as we will see...
When it comes down to it, Lebron and CA are completetly differnt players, and having players that could do multiple things, defend multiple positions, and provide leadership, and the effect these players bring would be different
all true. can't argue with any of that.
thats why I wanted lowry here so badly. He would have been our leader and made/forced everyone to be better players.
We need to get a PG/Floor leader in here.
For the price we payed for AB, we could have had Lowry and AB
At the very best we just had to insist it or add in one of the 2nd rounders we sent away to Philly to sweeten it
RonRon wrote:mreinman wrote:RonRon wrote:mreinman wrote:RonRon wrote:It is leverage, we have none
I am sure Phil Jackson has tried to move both JR Smith, Iman, and Tyson Chandler, however, he thought he could have got more
As he continued to play worse and worse, from last season to now, the leverage got worse
What those guys do now with their current teams are irrelevent as we were quite patient in hoping their games would elevate, some in contract years
I personally do not think fully running the triangle helped either, not with the roster we had in place
While Kerr was smart enough to take philosophies from all his experiences as a student of the game and combined it with the skills and fit of his roster, he tweaked a bit of everything and he is a genious that knew how to get the most of his roster and utilize his depth while developing future talents as well (like Poppavich has been doing for many years)
Unfortunately, Phil Jackson and/or Dolan thought they had leverage over Kerr with his lack of experience and didn't lock him up by giving him an offering he couldn't turn down
Meanwhile, after the 2billion evaluation, they decided to not let Fisher walk and have the possibility to increase their chances of recruiting Durant in the future with Fish
So while I still believe that Iman, Chandler, JR Smith, and whoever, may have talents, we were horrible together and it was unlikely that we would have gotten anything that we think we could have got from the way they play now
How can JR Smith, Chandler, Udrih, now Iman, INSTANTLY get better as they leave our team, and go to another team, is the better question
It seems to be consistent that those guys skills were not the problem....
JR is a much better player when assisted. So are most players.
The issue here is that we don't have guards that can break down the defense and create for others.
We have a forward that can, he just would rather shoot.
Point is many players that we had high expectations on have instinct success when they leave NY
It could be a combination of all but whether it is our lack of talent on our team, whether we lacked a franchise talent, whether we ran systems that didn't work well with the players we had, whether the roles they had on our team were not utilized correctly and/or a good mix with the players we had
It didn't make a difference because the values they had while on our roster were low as they should be because none of them were producing as individuals and we were not producing as a team
So what these players do while on other teams right now is irrelevent
There should be no question that these players have talent but we were unable to fully utilize their strengths and hide their weakness's the way we played and with the talent we had....
JR Smith COULD always shoot, his shot selection is horrible, but if you have multiple players that can take the pressure of him and create shots, while spreading the floor, and take the pressure of him, while providing the leadership we lacked, he could be a decent player
Instead when he was here, often both CA and JR Smith would take turns going 1v1, as neither players were able to create plays for the team
Tyson Chandler could play defense and rebound, and could be threat when running the PnR, however, we didn't have players that could play defense as a team for TEAM DEFENSE, and enough 1v1 players that could hold their own and rebound while playing with him
Same with Iman Shumpert, as we will see...
When it comes down to it, Lebron and CA are completetly differnt players, and having players that could do multiple things, defend multiple positions, and provide leadership, and the effect these players bring would be different
all true. can't argue with any of that.
thats why I wanted lowry here so badly. He would have been our leader and made/forced everyone to be better players.
We need to get a PG/Floor leader in here.
For the price we payed for AB, we could have had Lowry and AB
At the very best we just had to insist it or add in one of the 2nd rounders we sent away to Philly to sweeten it
well maybe if our leaders checked the stats then they would not have gone near AB and would have gone after players like Lowry.
I think that by now they may have learned their lesson. Maybe.
mreinman wrote:Nalod wrote:Still pining for lowrey?? Move on brother...........
No more trading no. 1 picks unless it puts you further into contention!!!!!
Lowrey I doubt would have pushed us that far.
I will ... one day ... maybe
Mozgov goes for 2 but we could not give up one for a real game changer?
Those picks for Mozgov won't be lottery, but lets not talk about what we don't have, which was other teams picks obtained via trade!
I think you trade future no. 1's when your contending, not when your in the shytter because if Lowrey gets injured and the team sinks, that pick has to be protected. Maybe Toronto said NO to protection?
We just don't know.
When a player elevates the team it should result in that pick DROPPING in value. When You get an EDDY, or Bargs and the trade does not your losing on both ends!!! We can't afford to trade no. 1's anymore, not until we fill the cupboard up.
I know we'd all rather have Lowrey NOW then a pick in three years but the fact might be this could take a while and instant gradification cannot rule, thus I prefer Phil is patient even if to the distain of fans who want it NOW!!!!!!!!
In fact, when reading some of the comments I am convinced of it.
We have the romantic notion that every Dleaguer showing promise should be a knick regardless of fit. Same for some trade proposals!
For now, lets see if Detroit can throw us a 2nd rounder for Priggy!
