Knicks · Sixers GM gave the best explanation yet for his radical tanking plan (page 2)

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

everyone is so up in arms about MCW but they actually flipped him while he still had high value and they got back a potentially very high pick.

MCW is extremely talented but his shooting is not just bad, its beyond bad. Its brutal. He would need to average 15 assists per game to make up for his torrid shooting.

People who ignore metrics and just look at PPG will of course ignore this as well.

Who do you think is in a better position right now? Us or Philly? Is it even close?

The MCW was a trade that we would never make and that's why we suck. We don't make the right trades and the right time.

This pick that they got for MCW is top 5 protected but how about if they use it to select Stanley Johnson??

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

eh its better than our plan has been for 15 years which has been trading as many picks as possibile and getting worse

Our plan has not been good, in fact downright terrible, but what proof do you see that their plan is better? It looks more and more like a mess each day. No proof they will get out of the basement anytime soon. No core players. Traded their best player. I agree with fishmike, this will fail big time.

mreinman wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

mreinman wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Yeah that just sound like a lot of fluff.

Yeah, great players need development too. How are you going to develop anyone when you're constantly cashing guys in for more picks? Teams like the Spurs, the championship Lakers, the Pistons and the Celtics did try to stay competitive during their rebuilds.

I don't think they want to develop. I think they want to do what the rockets did. who did they develop?

Beverly, Parsons, Lowry, Dragic, Donatas Motiejunas, Terrence Jones, Chase Budinger etc. Even before Houston got Howard and Harden, they were looking for talented players who fit their system and you saw improvement from year to year. I don't see that with the 76ers.

none of those guys besides Beverly is here. The guys they have now were attained through asset compilation.

Philly is gonna also have to hit in the draft but they are giving themselves a chance to do so.

Terrence and Motiejunas are still there. Also, it is not proven that Houston is the best route to go.

nixluva wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

crzymdups wrote:It sounds great... unless they get to like year 7 with no superstar in the draft. And what if MCW was that superstar?

He said it himself, the draft is a crapshoot, which we all know, and so is his plan. He is going to just toss around players and picks and throw stuff at the wall hoping something eventually sticks with no end game or timeframe to which he is held accountable. The only thing that is definite in this whole process is his job security, so good for him. Trading MCW shows he is just going to delay the rebuild as far as he can. I was never sold on what he is doing, but i have to say if i were a part of sixers fanbase or ownership, i would be far less confident now. Trading players he drafted for future picks is not a good sign.

i would say the sixers are in a better position than we are. We basically have one pick the next 2 years so we better hit a homerun. Cap space doesnt mean we will win in free agency either

In terms of Draft picks the Sixers are world champs. We can't compete on their level in terms of draft picks. In terms of Free Agents that's a bit more in the Knicks control. Not just the big names but the smaller pick ups that add to the overall team production. Here's the one advantage the Knicks have. We have a system which has very clear and specific roles. When we go after players we're very clearly going after players who can fit a given role. It makes things far less of a crap shoot or winging it approach.

The sixers don't have a system? You don't think that they are looking for players that will fit the system that they would like to run? Does Houston run a system?

Their system is actually much more in line with what modern teams are running, not this triangle thing.

They are doing two things, they are running a system that they will be looking to have their players run, and, they will be looking to continue to stockpile and flip in hopes that they can put themselves in a position to get a James Harden, dwight howard, DURANT, ADavis type of player(s).

Most people said / say the same thing about Morey, that he did not have a plan but he obviously does, we are/were just not smart enough to recognize it.

And people will still out of silliness say "hey he signed Lin and Asik to those dumb contract so he must be an idiot".

No. He is much smarter than all of us. And, he will make many mistakes and give himself many chances to do so.

why compare us to Phili? Are you suggesting I think our model has been a sound one? PHHHHUCK no. That why I went all over the Bulls/Spurs model. I believe they are essentially the same model. One's been more successfull than the other, but both show sustained success and despite setbacks and injuries to their top players these teams continue to win and contend every year. Because they BUILD. Phili isnt building anything... and mrein... the shooting? they said the same thing about Jason Kidd. Stills the case with Rondo... It doesnt matter who they pick, because that person is not better than MCH. Watch.. this will be Nash/Dantoni type relationship. What a coup. What does it tell you about Phili that they would trade a rookie PG who actually plays hard in that idiotic environment to Jason Kidd's team. Wow.

ANY team that hasnt traded their picks away for poop is better shape than us. HELLLOOOO have you looked at the standings?

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

eh its better than our plan has been for 15 years which has been trading as many picks as possibile and getting worse

Our plan has not been good, in fact downright terrible, but what proof do you see that their plan is better? It looks more and more like a mess each day. No proof they will get out of the basement anytime soon. No core players. Traded their best player. I agree with fishmike, this will fail big time.

well we are basically in the same boat cap space wise and the rosters are pretty similar. Draft pick wise they obviously kill us. Look i dont like admitting it since im a knick fan but i wish we were smart enough to collect more picks too

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

eh its better than our plan has been for 15 years which has been trading as many picks as possibile and getting worse

Our plan has not been good, in fact downright terrible, but what proof do you see that their plan is better? It looks more and more like a mess each day. No proof they will get out of the basement anytime soon. No core players. Traded their best player. I agree with fishmike, this will fail big time.

Just a reminder that the current Knicks approach is brand new. We just started on this current path with the JR/Shump trade. After that trade it's turned into a near full rebuild of the roster. So it's unfair to label this current plan in a negative light, since we have to wait for the Draft and Free Agency to actually see who Phil brings in at the very least.

What does the pick turn into if Philly doesn't get the LAL pick.

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

mreinman wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Yeah that just sound like a lot of fluff.

Yeah, great players need development too. How are you going to develop anyone when you're constantly cashing guys in for more picks? Teams like the Spurs, the championship Lakers, the Pistons and the Celtics did try to stay competitive during their rebuilds.

I don't think they want to develop. I think they want to do what the rockets did. who did they develop?

Beverly, Parsons, Lowry, Dragic, Donatas Motiejunas, Terrence Jones, Chase Budinger etc. Even before Houston got Howard and Harden, they were looking for talented players who fit their system and you saw improvement from year to year. I don't see that with the 76ers.

none of those guys besides Beverly is here. The guys they have now were attained through asset compilation.

Philly is gonna also have to hit in the draft but they are giving themselves a chance to do so.

Terrence and Motiejunas are still there. Also, it is not proven that Houston is the best route to go.

nothing is proven until you win. Its not proven that Atlanta is doing the right thing either.

the same posters who are bashing these types of moves were bashing atlanta last year. Now they have shut up since atlanta has made them look stupid.

Houston may fail in the playoffs and Harden may just be a Melo-Type playoff performer, however, they put themselves in a position to find that out.

Nothing is guaranteed. If you invest, you need to give yourself the best chance to succeed.

nixluva wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

eh its better than our plan has been for 15 years which has been trading as many picks as possibile and getting worse

Our plan has not been good, in fact downright terrible, but what proof do you see that their plan is better? It looks more and more like a mess each day. No proof they will get out of the basement anytime soon. No core players. Traded their best player. I agree with fishmike, this will fail big time.

Just a reminder that the current Knicks approach is brand new. We just started on this current path with the JR/Shump trade. After that trade it's turned into a near full rebuild of the roster. So it's unfair to label this current plan in a negative light, since we have to wait for the Draft and Free Agency to actually see who Phil brings in at the very least.

its not like im giving up on phil but personally i think multiple draft pick only helps. Look im praying phil does his thing this summer but you cant just assume everything will go terrific. Lets face it we have gotten our hopes up many times and end up being disappointed

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

eh its better than our plan has been for 15 years which has been trading as many picks as possibile and getting worse

Our plan has not been good, in fact downright terrible, but what proof do you see that their plan is better? It looks more and more like a mess each day. No proof they will get out of the basement anytime soon. No core players. Traded their best player. I agree with fishmike, this will fail big time.

well we are basically in the same boat cap space wise and the rosters are pretty similar. Draft pick wise they obviously kill us. Look i dont like admitting it since im a knick fan but i wish we were smart enough to collect more picks too

Their cap space is pointless, because they won't use it, nor will good players go there even if they did. They have built a culture of losing and wanting to lose and cannot be taken seriously. They would have to overpay tremendously. They will function as if they don't have cap space. And no one wants to turn this into a knicks vs sixers plan. The knicks plans have sucked. But i think the Sixers does as well. I saw some promise in it 2 years ago, but now i see a messy plan with no light at the end of the tunnel.

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

eh its better than our plan has been for 15 years which has been trading as many picks as possibile and getting worse

Our plan has not been good, in fact downright terrible, but what proof do you see that their plan is better? It looks more and more like a mess each day. No proof they will get out of the basement anytime soon. No core players. Traded their best player. I agree with fishmike, this will fail big time.

well we are basically in the same boat cap space wise and the rosters are pretty similar. Draft pick wise they obviously kill us. Look i dont like admitting it since im a knick fan but i wish we were smart enough to collect more picks too

Their cap space is pointless, because they won't use it, nor will good players go there even if they did. They have built a culture of losing and wanting to lose and cannot be taken seriously. They would have to overpay tremendously. They will function as if they don't have cap space. And no one wants to turn this into a knicks vs sixers plan. The knicks plans have sucked. But i think the Sixers does as well. I saw some promise in it 2 years ago, but now i see a messy plan with no light at the end of the tunnel.

what makes you think anybody will want to come here either. We had cap space in 2010 and only got amare who only came here because we offered 5 years

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

eh its better than our plan has been for 15 years which has been trading as many picks as possibile and getting worse

Our plan has not been good, in fact downright terrible, but what proof do you see that their plan is better? It looks more and more like a mess each day. No proof they will get out of the basement anytime soon. No core players. Traded their best player. I agree with fishmike, this will fail big time.

well we are basically in the same boat cap space wise and the rosters are pretty similar. Draft pick wise they obviously kill us. Look i dont like admitting it since im a knick fan but i wish we were smart enough to collect more picks too

Their cap space is pointless, because they won't use it, nor will good players go there even if they did. They have built a culture of losing and wanting to lose and cannot be taken seriously. They would have to overpay tremendously. They will function as if they don't have cap space. And no one wants to turn this into a knicks vs sixers plan. The knicks plans have sucked. But i think the Sixers does as well. I saw some promise in it 2 years ago, but now i see a messy plan with no light at the end of the tunnel.

what makes you think anybody will want to come here either. We had cap space in 2010 and only got amare who only came here because we offered 5 years

I think it is safe to say players are more likely to want to come to NY than Philly. Dragic for example, had NY on his list of destinations, not Philly. I think it is safe to assume a lot of other players will have the same preference. Dragic gave us an early indication players have interest in coming, right? 3 teams on his list...

StarksEwing1 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

eh its better than our plan has been for 15 years which has been trading as many picks as possibile and getting worse

Our plan has not been good, in fact downright terrible, but what proof do you see that their plan is better? It looks more and more like a mess each day. No proof they will get out of the basement anytime soon. No core players. Traded their best player. I agree with fishmike, this will fail big time.

Just a reminder that the current Knicks approach is brand new. We just started on this current path with the JR/Shump trade. After that trade it's turned into a near full rebuild of the roster. So it's unfair to label this current plan in a negative light, since we have to wait for the Draft and Free Agency to actually see who Phil brings in at the very least.

its not like im giving up on phil but personally i think multiple draft pick only helps. Look im praying phil does his thing this summer but you cant just assume everything will go terrific. Lets face it we have gotten our hopes up many times and end up being disappointed

picking up picks is a great idea. See above my comments on the Bulls and Spurs. Valueing the draft AND young talent is paramount. You dont dump talent and what easily looks like a cornerstone potentially game changing 2-way player for a great pacakge of picks. Looks at those Bull's drafts I mentioned. So I had a kid who's showing Penny Hardaway potential no Im not trading him for mutliple #1s.. thats idiotic, but dont take my word for it... just start watching the Bucks.

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

StarksEwing1 wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

eh its better than our plan has been for 15 years which has been trading as many picks as possibile and getting worse

Our plan has not been good, in fact downright terrible, but what proof do you see that their plan is better? It looks more and more like a mess each day. No proof they will get out of the basement anytime soon. No core players. Traded their best player. I agree with fishmike, this will fail big time.

well we are basically in the same boat cap space wise and the rosters are pretty similar. Draft pick wise they obviously kill us. Look i dont like admitting it since im a knick fan but i wish we were smart enough to collect more picks too

Their cap space is pointless, because they won't use it, nor will good players go there even if they did. They have built a culture of losing and wanting to lose and cannot be taken seriously. They would have to overpay tremendously. They will function as if they don't have cap space. And no one wants to turn this into a knicks vs sixers plan. The knicks plans have sucked. But i think the Sixers does as well. I saw some promise in it 2 years ago, but now i see a messy plan with no light at the end of the tunnel.

what makes you think anybody will want to come here either. We had cap space in 2010 and only got amare who only came here because we offered 5 years

I think it is safe to say players are more likely to want to come to NY than Philly. Dragic for example, had NY on his list of destinations, not Philly. I think it is safe to assume a lot of other players will have the same preference. Dragic gave us an early indication players have interest in coming, right? 3 teams on his list...

in fairness every player or coach has said they would love to play here. Lebron chris paul steve kerr and so on. I wouldnt read much into it. Its good to be optimistic but given our bad history the past 15 years we cant just assume everything will be great. I hate philly but i like what they are doing more than us right now

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

everyone is so up in arms about MCW but they actually flipped him while he still had high value and they got back a potentially very high pick.

MCW is extremely talented but his shooting is not just bad, its beyond bad. Its brutal. He would need to average 15 assists per game to make up for his torrid shooting.

People who ignore metrics and just look at PPG will of course ignore this as well.

Who do you think is in a better position right now? Us or Philly? Is it even close?

The MCW was a trade that we would never make and that's why we suck. We don't make the right trades and the right time.

This pick that they got for MCW is top 5 protected but how about if they use it to select Stanley Johnson??

according to the numbers i have looked at he is a liability on offense but not a bad defender. if he can't shoot the ball, it may take quite a while to develop a jumper. yet his numbers indicate that he is not bad at sharing the ball if not an outright orchestrator. shooting can develop over a long time, orchestrating not so much. so if the trade is merited perhaps there's a timeline variable in there too.

if you look at espn rpm he is ranked 264th among nba players. that may well be what hinkie is looking at as well.

Knicks have no plan. A decade of giving assets for garbage equals and empty cubbord. The hope is Phil builds something and passes it along to someone he mentors and Dolan stays out of the picture on a permanent basis. Fisher becomes the next Vangundy and puts out a solid 8 year stretch of good coaching. Phil fills the roster with multi skilled long wingspan role players around a few higher impact guys we were lucky enough to grab in that 2015 draft and sign that year in FA. I mean thats the hope. Thats the koolaid. I think of a $60mm expectation is that. Then something like the Bulls success. Maybe we get bounced in the first round a few times but we still made the 2nd once and the ECF once.... build the base, bring in guys who can thrive in a system... I mean there is a point to all this. Do you think because Melo is here its a quick fix? He may be nothing more than a stop gap. He's Bernard... fun player, sick scorer! But its Ewing we are looking to add this year.

Do you dig?

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

everyone is so up in arms about MCW but they actually flipped him while he still had high value and they got back a potentially very high pick.

MCW is extremely talented but his shooting is not just bad, its beyond bad. Its brutal. He would need to average 15 assists per game to make up for his torrid shooting.

People who ignore metrics and just look at PPG will of course ignore this as well.

Who do you think is in a better position right now? Us or Philly? Is it even close?

The MCW was a trade that we would never make and that's why we suck. We don't make the right trades and the right time.

This pick that they got for MCW is top 5 protected but how about if they use it to select Stanley Johnson??

according to the numbers i have looked at he is a liability on offense but not a bad defender. if he can't shoot the ball, it may take quite a while to develop a jumper. yet his numbers indicate that he is not bad at sharing the ball if not an outright orchestrator. shooting can develop over a long time, orchestrating not so much. so if the trade is merited perhaps there's a timeline variable in there too.

if you look at espn rpm he is ranked 264th among nba players. that may well be what hinkie is looking at as well.

and take a look at his TS and WS48. They are not awful, they are disgusting.

The sixers sold high ... will he become a shooter? They are betting that he won't. Time will tell.

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

everyone is so up in arms about MCW but they actually flipped him while he still had high value and they got back a potentially very high pick.

MCW is extremely talented but his shooting is not just bad, its beyond bad. Its brutal. He would need to average 15 assists per game to make up for his torrid shooting.

People who ignore metrics and just look at PPG will of course ignore this as well.

Who do you think is in a better position right now? Us or Philly? Is it even close?

The MCW was a trade that we would never make and that's why we suck. We don't make the right trades and the right time.

This pick that they got for MCW is top 5 protected but how about if they use it to select Stanley Johnson??

according to the numbers i have looked at he is a liability on offense but not a bad defender. if he can't shoot the ball, it may take quite a while to develop a jumper. yet his numbers indicate that he is not bad at sharing the ball if not an outright orchestrator. shooting can develop over a long time, orchestrating not so much. so if the trade is merited perhaps there's a timeline variable in there too.

if you look at espn rpm he is ranked 264th among nba players. that may well be what hinkie is looking at as well.

and take a look at his TS and WS48. They are not awful, they are disgusting.

The sixers sold high ... will he become a shooter? They are betting that he won't. Time will tell.

yellowboy90 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

mreinman wrote:

BigDaddyG wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Yeah that just sound like a lot of fluff.

Yeah, great players need development too. How are you going to develop anyone when you're constantly cashing guys in for more picks? Teams like the Spurs, the championship Lakers, the Pistons and the Celtics did try to stay competitive during their rebuilds.

I don't think they want to develop. I think they want to do what the rockets did. who did they develop?

Beverly, Parsons, Lowry, Dragic, Donatas Motiejunas, Terrence Jones, Chase Budinger etc. Even before Houston got Howard and Harden, they were looking for talented players who fit their system and you saw improvement from year to year. I don't see that with the 76ers.

none of those guys besides Beverly is here. The guys they have now were attained through asset compilation.

Philly is gonna also have to hit in the draft but they are giving themselves a chance to do so.

Terrence and Motiejunas are still there. Also, it is not proven that Houston is the best route to go.

My point is that it's still possible to stay competitive and develop players while collecting assets. Those Houston teams still managed to win in the low 30s to 40 games. My problem with the 76ers is that I don't see a plan in place. They claim that they want to install a season, but their draft history says they want the team to go in a different direction. I'm not saying MCW is going to be great, but I can say it was probably too early to give up on him. Imagine if the Wizards gave up on Jon Wall after in the middle of year 2? Now they have Wrote running point for them, who is a worse fit for this system they want to build than MCW.

dk7th wrote:

mreinman wrote:

fishmike wrote:Its a crap plan and it wont work out. There is a reason you strive to get better ever year. There is a reason you try to build something.

Its fun for the draft junkies but losing breeds more losing and drafting in sheer volume doesnt guarentee anything.

for example.. lets say your an elite franchise with multiple titles over recent years. Established and successful ownership and FO team. You start your rebuilding with a 5 year stretch of multiple high quality draft picks. I mean its a given your going to come out with some star players to build around right? Something like this:
Year 1: Pick 1 - Elton Brand
Year 2: Picks 2,8 - Marcus Fizer, Jamal Crawford
Year 3: Picks 2,4 - Tyson Chandler, Eddie Curry
Year 4: Pick 2 - Jay Williams
Year 5: Pick 7 - Kirk Heinrich

So... 5 years into it? 5 years of utterly dreadful basketball.

Whats even more telling about this stupid approach is when the Bulls started to get better and goto the playoffs. What turned that around? A group of players the EXACT OPPOSITE of must have stars approach. It was Duhon becoming the starting PG. It was a 25 year old rookie in Nocioni. To be fair Ben Gordon was high caliber talent and had a good rookie season. But the big impact player was Deng, who is your highly talented glue guy. Guys like Battier, Iguodalla, Tony Allen, Deng, back injured LJ was that guy for the Knicks... not sexy guys but high caliber low stat high impact guys.

Moving along the Bulls saw some good talent come and go. The have been well coached and thats been documented. Half this board wanks on Thibs team stats. All that and the Bulls reached the conf finals ONCE. Did I mention they added a #1 pick PG MVP along the way?

I mean you can do everything right and it still just doesnt work for one reason or another. And I mention the Bulls because they tend to keep the good talent and let the lesser go. Butler, Noah, Rose, Gibson... the keepers. Ben Gordon, Boozer, Hinrick.. the gonners. The continue to get it right.

Im not looking to use the Bulls as an example for failure. I mean start of every year they could be in the finals. I think all would agree here the Bulls have an envious roster and are well coached. Despite not winning I believe they are a model of success, and not unlike the Spurs model. Build around a core of quality. Spurs. Bulls. BUILD.

And I can tell you very simply and very easily why this guy is an absolute joke and will utterly and quickly fail.

Michael Carter Williams.

This will be probably not the first but the early and shining moment of this idiots total failure and mockery of what team sports is all about.

My god. A 6'6 PG putting up 15/7/6 in his rookie year. Yea his shooting stinks but the guy oozes talent, clearly has game and IS A 6'6 PG. Its like trading Penny Hardaway for three first rounders. No matter what your opiion of MCW you cant honestly say you can project his upside or downside at this time. He really could be another Penny type player. Maybe not. My point is simple... there is NO WAY to know after 50 NBA games. Certainly not in the environment they have created.

This guy is a joke.

Want to know whats NO JOKE? Michael Carter Williams starting his new career under Jason Kidd. Yikes.

Wake up dude... this GM is a joke. He's not qualified or capable of buiding anything. He's got an algorithm he plugs into his playstation. These are men. I watching this experiment fail with great interest because there is talent there easy to plunder.

everyone is so up in arms about MCW but they actually flipped him while he still had high value and they got back a potentially very high pick.

MCW is extremely talented but his shooting is not just bad, its beyond bad. Its brutal. He would need to average 15 assists per game to make up for his torrid shooting.

People who ignore metrics and just look at PPG will of course ignore this as well.

Who do you think is in a better position right now? Us or Philly? Is it even close?

The MCW was a trade that we would never make and that's why we suck. We don't make the right trades and the right time.

This pick that they got for MCW is top 5 protected but how about if they use it to select Stanley Johnson??

according to the numbers i have looked at he is a liability on offense but not a bad defender. if he can't shoot the ball, it may take quite a while to develop a jumper. yet his numbers indicate that he is not bad at sharing the ball if not an outright orchestrator. shooting can develop over a long time, orchestrating not so much. so if the trade is merited perhaps there's a timeline variable in there too.

if you look at espn rpm he is ranked 264th among nba players. that may well be what hinkie is looking at as well.

so do you have an opinion on that? Cause it sure does make sense to judge a rookie PG after 50 NBA games based on the rest of the league. Idiotic. Youll see. You think its a good trade? It is.. for Milw.