Knicks · If we paid middleton 16 mm (page 2)

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If we want an rfa like Middleton we would have to sign h to a contract that is nasty for the bucks to look at. That is the reality of rfa my bet is the bucks will still match any offer knicks fans and the team better be prepared for secondary free agents

Thats the issue...he is a second tier free agent, at best. he's nowhere close to 16 mil a year type player.

why is he not worth it?

you just quoted why....

I am asking you why do you think he is a second tier FA? His game, youth, and potential says other wise.

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If we want an rfa like Middleton we would have to sign h to a contract that is nasty for the bucks to look at. That is the reality of rfa my bet is the bucks will still match any offer knicks fans and the team better be prepared for secondary free agents

Thats the issue...he is a second tier free agent, at best. he's nowhere close to 16 mil a year type player.

why is he not worth it?

you just quoted why....

I am asking you why do you think he is a second tier FA? His game, youth, and potential says other wise.

First tier is a star player. he's nowhere near that.

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If we want an rfa like Middleton we would have to sign h to a contract that is nasty for the bucks to look at. That is the reality of rfa my bet is the bucks will still match any offer knicks fans and the team better be prepared for secondary free agents

Thats the issue...he is a second tier free agent, at best. he's nowhere close to 16 mil a year type player.

why is he not worth it?

you just quoted why....

I am asking you why do you think he is a second tier FA? His game, youth, and potential says other wise.

First tier is a star player. he's nowhere near that.

Knicks At 6-8 225 a good ballhandler athletic a great shooter slasher who plays good team ball he's only additional usage from being a star. Is there some presumption factored in. Yes but at worst he's a 10 mm dollar player . If you get burned on the premium a bit that's rfa. All he needs to be a 20 pt SG is 38 minutes a night. Also love the length on the d

yellowboy90 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If we want an rfa like Middleton we would have to sign h to a contract that is nasty for the bucks to look at. That is the reality of rfa my bet is the bucks will still match any offer knicks fans and the team better be prepared for secondary free agents

Thats the issue...he is a second tier free agent, at best. he's nowhere close to 16 mil a year type player.

why is he not worth it?

You don't pay inconsistent players ridiculous sums of money that gets in the way of other deals to meet needs a reasonable sum is what makes sense 8-9 million range maybe.

How is he inconsistent? He is very consistent. Can you explain your reasoning in detail if you have the time. WHat are you basing your opinion of.

You are right he is consistent for a role player, you really want to over pay for a role player. Or should the Knicks base everything on his post all star number? Which is a whopping 9 games. Like I said I will take him on the Knicks but not at 16 million even with a 33% increase in cap number in two years.

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If we want an rfa like Middleton we would have to sign h to a contract that is nasty for the bucks to look at. That is the reality of rfa my bet is the bucks will still match any offer knicks fans and the team better be prepared for secondary free agents

Thats the issue...he is a second tier free agent, at best. he's nowhere close to 16 mil a year type player.

why is he not worth it?

you just quoted why....

I am asking you why do you think he is a second tier FA? His game, youth, and potential says other wise.

First tier is a star player. he's nowhere near that.

Knicks At 6-8 225 a good ballhandler athletic a great shooter slasher who plays good team ball he's only additional usage from being a star. Is there some presumption factored in. Yes but at worst he's a 10 mm dollar player . If you get burned on the premium a bit that's rfa. All he needs to be a 20 pt SG is 38 minutes a night. Also love the length on the d

His per 36 numbers only push him to 15 per game, so no he isnt just minutes or usage away. he's a good player but second tier. You're getting the production because he is used in a more limited way.

Less is more in this situation, but feel free to clog 16 mil in a player who doesnt truly have a defined position who isnt even a 30 minute player.

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If we want an rfa like Middleton we would have to sign h to a contract that is nasty for the bucks to look at. That is the reality of rfa my bet is the bucks will still match any offer knicks fans and the team better be prepared for secondary free agents

Thats the issue...he is a second tier free agent, at best. he's nowhere close to 16 mil a year type player.

why is he not worth it?

you just quoted why....

I am asking you why do you think he is a second tier FA? His game, youth, and potential says other wise.

First tier is a star player. he's nowhere near that.

Knicks At 6-8 225 a good ballhandler athletic a great shooter slasher who plays good team ball he's only additional usage from being a star. Is there some presumption factored in. Yes but at worst he's a 10 mm dollar player . If you get burned on the premium a bit that's rfa. All he needs to be a 20 pt SG is 38 minutes a night. Also love the length on the d

His per 36 numbers only push him to 15 per game, so no he isnt just minutes or usage away. he's a good player but second tier. You're getting the production because he is used in a more limited way.

Less is more in this situation, but feel free to clog 16 mil in a player who doesnt truly have a defined position who isnt even a 30 minute player.

If he was then there would be zero chance of getting him. How many 6-8 225 pound athletic 2 guards who are shooting 47. 42. 85 out there? Remember a fellow named Allan Houston Allan was a similar secondary athletic guard for Detroit who ended up as a great 2 g

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If we want an rfa like Middleton we would have to sign h to a contract that is nasty for the bucks to look at. That is the reality of rfa my bet is the bucks will still match any offer knicks fans and the team better be prepared for secondary free agents

Thats the issue...he is a second tier free agent, at best. he's nowhere close to 16 mil a year type player.

why is he not worth it?

you just quoted why....

I am asking you why do you think he is a second tier FA? His game, youth, and potential says other wise.

First tier is a star player. he's nowhere near that.

Knicks At 6-8 225 a good ballhandler athletic a great shooter slasher who plays good team ball he's only additional usage from being a star. Is there some presumption factored in. Yes but at worst he's a 10 mm dollar player . If you get burned on the premium a bit that's rfa. All he needs to be a 20 pt SG is 38 minutes a night. Also love the length on the d

His per 36 numbers only push him to 15 per game, so no he isnt just minutes or usage away. he's a good player but second tier. You're getting the production because he is used in a more limited way.

Less is more in this situation, but feel free to clog 16 mil in a player who doesnt truly have a defined position who isnt even a 30 minute player.

If he was then there would be zero chance of getting him. How many 6-8 225 pound athletic 2 guards who are shooting 47. 42. 85 out there? Remember a fellow named Allan Houston Allan was a similar secondary athletic guard for Detroit who ended up as a great 2 g

Houston was signed at a good deal when he got him, and no Middleton is no Houston. Houston was always a good shooter, Middleton is just doing it this season only.

An agumenet can be made that you take risk on players who have potential to grow. He has the capabilities as a two guard to break out like Klay or Jimmy Butler did. Butler broke out as a 25 y/o and Klay just turned 25 last Feb. Middleton will not turn 25 y/o until 2 more seasons. He rebounds better than Klay and is on par with Butler. They all pass just about the same. You can argue that Middleton has as much impact on D as Butler but I could understand ranking Butler ahead but Khris is a better defender than Klay. Maybe he never makes the jump offensively like Klay or Butler did(keep in mind Butler plays almost 39 mins). What if he just stays in the Nicolas Batum range. Who contract % when he first sign was probably similar to what Middleton's would be. I'll take a 12-16 pt efficient scorer who defends 3 positions at a very high level.

Vmart wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If we want an rfa like Middleton we would have to sign h to a contract that is nasty for the bucks to look at. That is the reality of rfa my bet is the bucks will still match any offer knicks fans and the team better be prepared for secondary free agents

Thats the issue...he is a second tier free agent, at best. he's nowhere close to 16 mil a year type player.

why is he not worth it?

You don't pay inconsistent players ridiculous sums of money that gets in the way of other deals to meet needs a reasonable sum is what makes sense 8-9 million range maybe.

How is he inconsistent? He is very consistent. Can you explain your reasoning in detail if you have the time. WHat are you basing your opinion of.

You are right he is consistent for a role player, you really want to over pay for a role player. Or should the Knicks base everything on his post all star number? Which is a whopping 9 games. Like I said I will take him on the Knicks but not at 16 million even with a 33% increase in cap number in two years.

I could see if he was playing with stars around him but he was not. Also, his pre all star numbers where awesome. So it's not that. It could be that he was the one carrying the Bucks. It's not just about how many points you can get it is about how you produce and how does your production fit into the team chemistry.

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If we want an rfa like Middleton we would have to sign h to a contract that is nasty for the bucks to look at. That is the reality of rfa my bet is the bucks will still match any offer knicks fans and the team better be prepared for secondary free agents

Thats the issue...he is a second tier free agent, at best. he's nowhere close to 16 mil a year type player.

why is he not worth it?

you just quoted why....

I am asking you why do you think he is a second tier FA? His game, youth, and potential says other wise.

First tier is a star player. he's nowhere near that.

Knicks At 6-8 225 a good ballhandler athletic a great shooter slasher who plays good team ball he's only additional usage from being a star. Is there some presumption factored in. Yes but at worst he's a 10 mm dollar player . If you get burned on the premium a bit that's rfa. All he needs to be a 20 pt SG is 38 minutes a night. Also love the length on the d

His per 36 numbers only push him to 15 per game, so no he isnt just minutes or usage away. he's a good player but second tier. You're getting the production because he is used in a more limited way.

Less is more in this situation, but feel free to clog 16 mil in a player who doesnt truly have a defined position who isnt even a 30 minute player.

If he was then there would be zero chance of getting him. How many 6-8 225 pound athletic 2 guards who are shooting 47. 42. 85 out there? Remember a fellow named Allan Houston Allan was a similar secondary athletic guard for Detroit who ended up as a great 2 g

Houston was signed at a good deal when he got him, and no Middleton is no Houston. Houston was always a good shooter, Middleton is just doing it this season only.

I believe Allan got a 6 year 48mm deal back in the mid 90s? That would equate to a 4 yr 64mm contract in 2015 quite evenly

Same age
Allan Houston
14 points 2 rev 2 as

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If we want an rfa like Middleton we would have to sign h to a contract that is nasty for the bucks to look at. That is the reality of rfa my bet is the bucks will still match any offer knicks fans and the team better be prepared for secondary free agents

Thats the issue...he is a second tier free agent, at best. he's nowhere close to 16 mil a year type player.

why is he not worth it?

you just quoted why....

I am asking you why do you think he is a second tier FA? His game, youth, and potential says other wise.

First tier is a star player. he's nowhere near that.

Knicks At 6-8 225 a good ballhandler athletic a great shooter slasher who plays good team ball he's only additional usage from being a star. Is there some presumption factored in. Yes but at worst he's a 10 mm dollar player . If you get burned on the premium a bit that's rfa. All he needs to be a 20 pt SG is 38 minutes a night. Also love the length on the d

His per 36 numbers only push him to 15 per game, so no he isnt just minutes or usage away. he's a good player but second tier. You're getting the production because he is used in a more limited way.

Less is more in this situation, but feel free to clog 16 mil in a player who doesnt truly have a defined position who isnt even a 30 minute player.

If he was then there would be zero chance of getting him. How many 6-8 225 pound athletic 2 guards who are shooting 47. 42. 85 out there? Remember a fellow named Allan Houston Allan was a similar secondary athletic guard for Detroit who ended up as a great 2 g

Houston was signed at a good deal when he got him, and no Middleton is no Houston. Houston was always a good shooter, Middleton is just doing it this season only.

I believe Allan got a 6 year 48mm deal back in the mid 90s? That would equate to a 4 yr 64mm contract in 2015 quite evenly

H20 first year salary with the Knicks was 5 mil, a slight overpay, but you knew what you were getting a consistent shooter. Middleton has been shooting well for one season only. Paying Houston 5 mil 20 years ago doesnt justify giving Middleton 16...soryy.

I like Middleton. I wonder if the Bucks would match.

You have to think guys like Kenneth Faried got 4yr $48M. Middleton at 4yr $50-60M is not a stretch at that level and you do have to pay more for RFA.

crzymdups wrote:I like Middleton. I wonder if the Bucks would match.

You have to think guys like Kenneth Faried got 4yr $48M. Middleton at 4yr $50-60M is not a stretch at that level and you do have to pay more for RFA.

Also, Alec Burks, an SG, got a 4 yr $48m extension. A contract worth $10.5 is probably Middleton baseline. You factor in market inflation and him being a better player and you are going near the max to have a chance at getting him.

crzymdups wrote:I like Middleton. I wonder if the Bucks would match.

You have to think guys like Kenneth Faried got 4yr $48M. Middleton at 4yr $50-60M is not a stretch at that level and you do have to pay more for RFA.

Faried is an overpay, he's barely an average NBA player. The Knicks cannot afford to pay more for lower tier talent, they have way too many holes to fill.

knickscity--Ill keep this brief and to the point re usage. Middleton's usage went up the last 20 games to 34 minutes a game from earlier in the season where his months splits were 22 24 and 30.

In his last 20 games at an average of 34 minutes hes avg 18 points 6.5 rebounds 3 assists 2 steals and 47.5% shooting.

In the first 3 games of March while sitting at those 34 minutes--his usage production went up getting 16 FGA instead of 3 his numbers 21.3 7 reb 3 assist 2 steals 45% efg over 60.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/... Its pretty clear that Middleton is and could be a 18-22 points 7 rebound 3-4 assists 45%++ with a 50% efg given the usage and minutes with good defense. So what is that worth on the open market----maximum contract.

close to 58% TS and shooting 42% from 3 as well.

I could be very happy with a core of Middleton and towns. We might be able to find a number 3 bnext year.Then you just say the caramelo the Mo Williams etc are the fill ins and there will be multi sets of these for 10 years. That's why I don't get people barking about bargs 1 year 4mm. He's a short term fill in?

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If we want an rfa like Middleton we would have to sign h to a contract that is nasty for the bucks to look at. That is the reality of rfa my bet is the bucks will still match any offer knicks fans and the team better be prepared for secondary free agents

Thats the issue...he is a second tier free agent, at best. he's nowhere close to 16 mil a year type player.

why is he not worth it?

you just quoted why....

I am asking you why do you think he is a second tier FA? His game, youth, and potential says other wise.

First tier is a star player. he's nowhere near that.

Knicks At 6-8 225 a good ballhandler athletic a great shooter slasher who plays good team ball he's only additional usage from being a star. Is there some presumption factored in. Yes but at worst he's a 10 mm dollar player . If you get burned on the premium a bit that's rfa. All he needs to be a 20 pt SG is 38 minutes a night. Also love the length on the d

You forget he shoots 42% from 3, on three attempts per game (so not an aberration). His #s show growth every year. Epitome of D+3 SG. $15.9MM seems crazy to me. The age is right, the numbers are there. The progress is there. Milwaukee already has a stud SG. Although Milwaukee is slotting him at the SF or PF. Not a star? Antekoumpo is in front of him... but 15.9mm is a bit nuts... he could easily regress with more time.

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:

knickscity wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:If we want an rfa like Middleton we would have to sign h to a contract that is nasty for the bucks to look at. That is the reality of rfa my bet is the bucks will still match any offer knicks fans and the team better be prepared for secondary free agents

Thats the issue...he is a second tier free agent, at best. he's nowhere close to 16 mil a year type player.

why is he not worth it?

you just quoted why....

I am asking you why do you think he is a second tier FA? His game, youth, and potential says other wise.

First tier is a star player. he's nowhere near that.

Knicks At 6-8 225 a good ballhandler athletic a great shooter slasher who plays good team ball he's only additional usage from being a star. Is there some presumption factored in. Yes but at worst he's a 10 mm dollar player . If you get burned on the premium a bit that's rfa. All he needs to be a 20 pt SG is 38 minutes a night. Also love the length on the d

His per 36 numbers only push him to 15 per game, so no he isnt just minutes or usage away. he's a good player but second tier. You're getting the production because he is used in a more limited way.

Less is more in this situation, but feel free to clog 16 mil in a player who doesnt truly have a defined position who isnt even a 30 minute player.

If he was then there would be zero chance of getting him. How many 6-8 225 pound athletic 2 guards who are shooting 47. 42. 85 out there? Remember a fellow named Allan Houston Allan was a similar secondary athletic guard for Detroit who ended up as a great 2 g

Houston was signed at a good deal when he got him, and no Middleton is no Houston. Houston was always a good shooter, Middleton is just doing it this season only.

Midleton shot 44/41/86 last year. Where is the aberration?

BRIGGS wrote:knickscity--Ill keep this brief and to the point re usage. Middleton's usage went up the last 20 games to 34 minutes a game from earlier in the season where his months splits were 22 24 and 30.

In his last 20 games at an average of 34 minutes hes avg 18 points 6.5 rebounds 3 assists 2 steals and 47.5% shooting.

In the first 3 games of March while sitting at those 34 minutes--his usage production went up getting 16 FGA instead of 3 his numbers 21.3 7 reb 3 assist 2 steals 45% efg over 60.

http://espn.go.com/nba/player/gamelog/_/... Its pretty clear that Middleton is and could be a 18-22 points 7 rebound 3-4 assists 45%++ with a 50% efg given the usage and minutes with good defense. So what is that worth on the open market----maximum contract.

He has also been splitting time at SF and PF. The Bucks are doing anything to get him on the court.