Knicks · Danny Green showing why you dont pay role players big money (page 5)
RonRon wrote:callmened wrote:maybe green isnt mentioned much because i doubt the warriors will let him go anywhere
The above is talking about Danny Green, not Draymond Green
Briggs has said Danny Green and Draymond Green are role players that are products of the systems and talents of the team
However, it is the same for Carroll, who I do like, but Briggs is suggesting a near max for him at over 12m a year
With that said, a max for Draymond Green is just about 2m more, he never thought Draymond Green was worth such a contract, but believes Carroll is a steal, even at that price, while I disagree and I like Carroll but he is not a SG as Briggs suggests
duh NED! sorry about that...lol
"not aldridge, not gasol, or any other REAL LEGIT free agent...but carroll" (Iverson voice)
- it just illustrates to me that the knicks are the raiders of the NBA. a once proud franchise that real free agents laugh at (did anyone see udrih's quote after today's game. "theres no way gasol is going to nyc. he doesnt like drama")
- anyways as for carroll vs green = i think carroll is the better player. can impact a game more with his athleitic ability and defense. green is the better shooter but can be streaky at times. id prefer carroll but would settle for green. are we going to win the title because of either? no. lol
callmened wrote:its funny (and maybe sad) that knicks fans are arguing/debating about role players like carroll or d.green"not aldridge, not gasol, or any other REAL LEGIT free agent...but carroll" (Iverson voice)
- it just illustrates to me that the knicks are the raiders of the NBA. a once proud franchise that real free agents laugh at (did anyone see udrih's quote after today's game. "theres no way gasol is going to nyc. he doesnt like drama")
- anyways as for carroll vs green = i think carroll is the better player. can impact a game more with his athleitic ability and defense. green is the better shooter but can be streaky at times. id prefer carroll but would settle for green. are we going to win the title because of either? no. lol
WE are talking about different 2nd tier players but the Knicks still are open to better free agents. This is all just conjecture about possible targets. The team still has to see where they'll be in the draft. After that it will be clearer which FA the Knicks will target.
This is no indictment on the state of the franchise. If anything the franchise is going to be on the way back up!
nixluva wrote:The cba is structured so that the stars going into free agency make more by staying with their own team. Also, the better free agents for the most part are already in winning situations and often have huge tax advantages over playing in NY.callmened wrote:its funny (and maybe sad) that knicks fans are arguing/debating about role players like carroll or d.green"not aldridge, not gasol, or any other REAL LEGIT free agent...but carroll" (Iverson voice)
- it just illustrates to me that the knicks are the raiders of the NBA. a once proud franchise that real free agents laugh at (did anyone see udrih's quote after today's game. "theres no way gasol is going to nyc. he doesnt like drama")
- anyways as for carroll vs green = i think carroll is the better player. can impact a game more with his athleitic ability and defense. green is the better shooter but can be streaky at times. id prefer carroll but would settle for green. are we going to win the title because of either? no. lol
WE are talking about different 2nd tier players but the Knicks still are open to better free agents. This is all just conjecture about possible targets. The team still has to see where they'll be in the draft. After that it will be clearer which FA the Knicks will target.
This is no indictment on the state of the franchise. If anything the franchise is going to be on the way back up!
callmened wrote:its funny (and maybe sad) that knicks fans are arguing/debating about role players like carroll or d.green"not aldridge, not gasol, or any other REAL LEGIT free agent...but carroll" (Iverson voice)
- it just illustrates to me that the knicks are the raiders of the NBA. a once proud franchise that real free agents laugh at (did anyone see udrih's quote after today's game. "theres no way gasol is going to nyc. he doesnt like drama")
- anyways as for carroll vs green = i think carroll is the better player. can impact a game more with his athleitic ability and defense. green is the better shooter but can be streaky at times. id prefer carroll but would settle for green. are we going to win the title because of either? no. lol
I think d Carroll is a hybrid 2-3-4 who can defend a higher variety of players and also has a higher tier of offense. With Carmelo coming back from injury Carroll could be invaluable on the defensive end. These fans talking about green are not considering he is a pure 2 who can't take it to the hole. One of the Knicks worst problems was their inability of their guards to attack the basket so we won't someone who doesn't address the issue? Gary Neal was a good spur too
BRIGGS wrote:callmened wrote:its funny (and maybe sad) that knicks fans are arguing/debating about role players like carroll or d.green"not aldridge, not gasol, or any other REAL LEGIT free agent...but carroll" (Iverson voice)
- it just illustrates to me that the knicks are the raiders of the NBA. a once proud franchise that real free agents laugh at (did anyone see udrih's quote after today's game. "theres no way gasol is going to nyc. he doesnt like drama")
- anyways as for carroll vs green = i think carroll is the better player. can impact a game more with his athleitic ability and defense. green is the better shooter but can be streaky at times. id prefer carroll but would settle for green. are we going to win the title because of either? no. lol
I think d Carroll is a hybrid 2-3-4 who can defend a higher variety of players and also has a higher tier of offense. With Carmelo coming back from injury Carroll could be invaluable on the defensive end. These fans talking about green are not considering he is a pure 2 who can't take it to the hole. One of the Knicks worst problems was their inability of their guards to attack the basket so we won't someone who doesn't address the issue? Gary Neal was a good spur too
except he isn't a 2 and that is not in his background. Neither onr can create offense they both rely on cuts and screens to score at the basket. So you are suggesting to turn a player that has played most of his career as a 3/4 to play him as a two. I'll ask again, with him at 2, what do you do when you want to move our pg off of the opposing pg defensively?
Carroll might be more versatile offensively(maybe) but Green is the more versatile defender which the knicks need. Plus, he has the better track record with shooting the 3ball.
Whats funny is that if Shump was the player Danny was people would have wanted him to get the max.
BRIGGS wrote:Knicks fans might hate me because I would do almost anything to add draft picks and bypass this free agency. If I could make fair deals for Gerald Wallace( pick 16)and David Lee (pick 30) and a 2020 top 6 restriction-- sign Anjica and Schvyed to 4 year deals I would be happy.
im not sure anyone HATES you. thats a strong word. at least i hope not. you have youre opinions - youre just very forceful with them (i.e your way or the highway). that doesnt bother me, i just keep mental notes.
youre different from most posters because you know of obscure names playing in obscure places. i can appreciate learning about new players and sometimes they're eye openers. but i also know the game and many obscure players too. i only give opinions on players i know and see. i still appreciate the input though. i just believe that the knicks brass; in fact any nba team; knows alot more scouting about these players than we ever will.
callmened wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Knicks fans might hate me because I would do almost anything to add draft picks and bypass this free agency. If I could make fair deals for Gerald Wallace( pick 16)and David Lee (pick 30) and a 2020 top 6 restriction-- sign Anjica and Schvyed to 4 year deals I would be happy.im not sure anyone HATES you. thats a strong word. at least i hope not. you have youre opinions - youre just very forceful with them (i.e your way or the highway). that doesnt bother me, i just keep mental notes.
youre different from most posters because you know of obscure names playing in obscure places. i can appreciate learning about new players and sometimes they're eye openers. but i also know the game and many obscure players too. i only give opinions on players i know and see. i still appreciate the input though. i just believe that the knicks brass; in fact any nba team; knows alot more scouting about these players than we ever will.
I'm not taking about anything personal I'm talking I would bypass this free agency if I could get those two trades for picks. I think we are so far from competing that continued bare bones rebuilding is a better avenue for us right now. Arguing about essential role players doesn't even make sense.
Here is Nys reality. No signed frontcourt players a selfish high tier player coming back from major surgery and the absolute slowest player in the league as our main pg. Does anyone really think this team is going anywhere even in the east? I think it's possible with okafor or towns to be competitive with a few other moves but let's get real
FA's that are around Melo's age, perhaps just a few years younger would likely be interested in a bigger contract and playing with Melo in NY. Remember that things always changing. Even teams like the Spurs will be making some changes. The Pacers will be making changes. Portland, Detroit, Orlando, etc. There will be a lot of movement with so many players in free agency. FA's will shop around and listen to the pitch from teams before they'll just resign with their current team. Perhaps Gasol won't but many of the other top FA's will make visits.
callmened wrote:its funny (and maybe sad) that knicks fans are arguing/debating about role players like carroll or d.green"not aldridge, not gasol, or any other REAL LEGIT free agent...but carroll" (Iverson voice)
- it just illustrates to me that the knicks are the raiders of the NBA. a once proud franchise that real free agents laugh at (did anyone see udrih's quote after today's game. "theres no way gasol is going to nyc. he doesnt like drama")
- anyways as for carroll vs green = i think carroll is the better player. can impact a game more with his athleitic ability and defense. green is the better shooter but can be streaky at times. id prefer carroll but would settle for green. are we going to win the title because of either? no. lol
I prefer Draymond Green because he is the better leader; which is one area that we MUST improve going forward
Rk Player Pos Age Tm G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 ▾ VORP
1 Jimmy Butler SG 25 CHI 65 2513 21.3 .583 .212 .508 5.1 11.2 8.2 14.4 2.3 1.0 7.7 21.6 8.2 3.0 11.2 .214 4.2
2 Danny Green SG 27 SAS 81 2312 16.5 .596 .619 .172 2.7 13.9 8.4 10.3 2.2 2.8 10.5 17.5 4.0 3.9 7.8 .163 4.1
3 W. Matthews SG 28 POR 60 2024 16.1 .586 .592 .193 2.1 9.5 5.9 10.8 1.9 0.4 9.0 19.8 4.0 2.2 6.2 .147 3.0
4 Alexey Shved SG 26 TOT 42 767 19.5 .541 .415 .448 3.3 11.7 7.3 25.7 2.0 0.6 10.7 26.3 1.7 0.5 2.2 .135 0.5
5 Mar Belinelli SG 28 SAS 62 1388 12.4 .553 .489 .211 2.2 10.5 6.4 10.3 1.1 0.2 10.6 18.8 1.5 1.4 2.9 .100 0.5
nixluva wrote:I'd like to remind everyone again of just what kind of production Danny Green has been giving. It's easy to just gloss over the facts and make decisions on pure passion. Among FA SG's only Jimmy Butler has better production. Danny from a defensive standpoint was even better than Butler! While I agree that it would be even better if Danny was more aggressive going to the basket, I don't think it's something to kill the guy over when he's doing so much else at a high level.
Rk Player Pos Age Tm G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 ▾ VORP
1 Jimmy Butler SG 25 CHI 65 2513 21.3 .583 .212 .508 5.1 11.2 8.2 14.4 2.3 1.0 7.7 21.6 8.2 3.0 11.2 .214 4.2
2 Danny Green SG 27 SAS 81 2312 16.5 .596 .619 .172 2.7 13.9 8.4 10.3 2.2 2.8 10.5 17.5 4.0 3.9 7.8 .163 4.1
3 W. Matthews SG 28 POR 60 2024 16.1 .586 .592 .193 2.1 9.5 5.9 10.8 1.9 0.4 9.0 19.8 4.0 2.2 6.2 .147 3.0
4 Alexey Shved SG 26 TOT 42 767 19.5 .541 .415 .448 3.3 11.7 7.3 25.7 2.0 0.6 10.7 26.3 1.7 0.5 2.2 .135 0.5
5 Mar Belinelli SG 28 SAS 62 1388 12.4 .553 .489 .211 2.2 10.5 6.4 10.3 1.1 0.2 10.6 18.8 1.5 1.4 2.9 .100 0.5
By the time this team is good again Danny Green will have small NBA value.
BRIGGS wrote:nixluva wrote:I'd like to remind everyone again of just what kind of production Danny Green has been giving. It's easy to just gloss over the facts and make decisions on pure passion. Among FA SG's only Jimmy Butler has better production. Danny from a defensive standpoint was even better than Butler! While I agree that it would be even better if Danny was more aggressive going to the basket, I don't think it's something to kill the guy over when he's doing so much else at a high level.
Rk Player Pos Age Tm G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 ▾ VORP
1 Jimmy Butler SG 25 CHI 65 2513 21.3 .583 .212 .508 5.1 11.2 8.2 14.4 2.3 1.0 7.7 21.6 8.2 3.0 11.2 .214 4.2
2 Danny Green SG 27 SAS 81 2312 16.5 .596 .619 .172 2.7 13.9 8.4 10.3 2.2 2.8 10.5 17.5 4.0 3.9 7.8 .163 4.1
3 W. Matthews SG 28 POR 60 2024 16.1 .586 .592 .193 2.1 9.5 5.9 10.8 1.9 0.4 9.0 19.8 4.0 2.2 6.2 .147 3.0
4 Alexey Shved SG 26 TOT 42 767 19.5 .541 .415 .448 3.3 11.7 7.3 25.7 2.0 0.6 10.7 26.3 1.7 0.5 2.2 .135 0.5
5 Mar Belinelli SG 28 SAS 62 1388 12.4 .553 .489 .211 2.2 10.5 6.4 10.3 1.1 0.2 10.6 18.8 1.5 1.4 2.9 .100 0.5By the time this team is good again Danny Green will have small NBA value.
Geez!
Can you at least try to refute the numbers that Nix is presenting?
While Carroll can guard 2's at time and on OFFENSE at times, it is also because they have multiple versatile talents on OFF and DEF, with HIGH IQ, unselfishness/ball movement/shooters/multiple post threats, and and system
Danny Green could play SG, SF, and even some PF the same way Caroll can, however, Carroll is closer to a SF and undersized PF
Briggs, I do not think posters here actually hate you, I surely do not, and even when I disagree with a lot of your opinions and how you come up with them, I enjoy reading and respect your thoughts
However, you tend to switch your opinons the past couple of years a lot more
For example, you have said that you believe we should draft OK4 or Towns nomatter what
Then you say we should sign Kanter no mater what
Then after that you say you are 90% positive that both Greg Monroe and WCS has been our plan all along that past 4 months
After that you come up with 10 possible trade scenarious that you believe will be better then keeping the pick
So which one is it really?
On the other post, I copy and pasted what another posters said, just so you understand it wasn't me, but I wanted to get rid of the troll
The way you come up with your own opinions, you use the same theories to justify why we should pick the players you want but at the same time, you disregard the same reasons/philospohy for another player you do not want
For example, you said Danny Green isn't a true SG, that he doesn't have the ability to play SG because he lacks speed, ability to penetrate, and you say that the reason why Danny Green is part of a system/players around him
However, Carroll is the same exact thing, but you would overpay for him, and claim he would be a steal, even when that deal would just be under 2m of a MAX contract that Drayond Green would receive who you think we are better off finding a cheaper options and developing our own
You contradict yourself and have said that he isn't worth that contract because we do not have Stephen Curry/Klay Thompson, etc
You have said since the beggining till now that Green isn't worthy of such a contract and you put him as a role player
But we do not have the same players/system for Carroll as well, you have said that you would give him a contract above 12m a year and say it would be a steal, which is just slightly less of what Draymond Green's salary would start at
This also goes for Kanter and Westbrook, the talent that OKC has, and the BIGS that OKC has but you disregard that
Opponents have to STOP WESTBROOK first and that is why Kanter is able to do what he does, because of Westbrook and the BIGS that can hide Kanter's weakness's
Phil Jackson is targetting players that FIT in to the system but you determine the value of players with STATS, placing too much emphasize on Boxscores without giving the other factors such as leadership and what the player is able to do elevate the team and what the team is able to do because of what the player brings to the system
Do not take it personal, we all have our own opinions, and do what you do, many of us enjoy reading it regardless
mreinman wrote:BRIGGS wrote:nixluva wrote:I'd like to remind everyone again of just what kind of production Danny Green has been giving. It's easy to just gloss over the facts and make decisions on pure passion. Among FA SG's only Jimmy Butler has better production. Danny from a defensive standpoint was even better than Butler! While I agree that it would be even better if Danny was more aggressive going to the basket, I don't think it's something to kill the guy over when he's doing so much else at a high level.
Rk Player Pos Age Tm G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 ▾ VORP
1 Jimmy Butler SG 25 CHI 65 2513 21.3 .583 .212 .508 5.1 11.2 8.2 14.4 2.3 1.0 7.7 21.6 8.2 3.0 11.2 .214 4.2
2 Danny Green SG 27 SAS 81 2312 16.5 .596 .619 .172 2.7 13.9 8.4 10.3 2.2 2.8 10.5 17.5 4.0 3.9 7.8 .163 4.1
3 W. Matthews SG 28 POR 60 2024 16.1 .586 .592 .193 2.1 9.5 5.9 10.8 1.9 0.4 9.0 19.8 4.0 2.2 6.2 .147 3.0
4 Alexey Shved SG 26 TOT 42 767 19.5 .541 .415 .448 3.3 11.7 7.3 25.7 2.0 0.6 10.7 26.3 1.7 0.5 2.2 .135 0.5
5 Mar Belinelli SG 28 SAS 62 1388 12.4 .553 .489 .211 2.2 10.5 6.4 10.3 1.1 0.2 10.6 18.8 1.5 1.4 2.9 .100 0.5By the time this team is good again Danny Green will have small NBA value.
Geez!
Can you at least try to refute the numbers that Nix is presenting?
Yes you see Marco Bellinelli at 5?
In 2013 he averaged 10 points 2 rebounds 2 assists and shot .395 from the field in 25 minutes
The following year he played with the Spurs and averaged 11 points 3 rebounds 2 assists in the same time--however he shot .485 from the field and .43 from 3--the first year by far his normal efficiency avg rose by spectacular amounts. Go back and look at Gary Neal--same thing.
I think the Knicks recovery is a 3-4 year process. I don't think paying premium $$ for other free agent role players is in our best long term interests. Id rather spend my time and money looking for younger players that can bloom when the Knicks do and stay that way for 6-10 years. Id like to stay on path with Hardaway Galloway resign Scvheyd and look for two more players who can help grow with the team.
RonRon wrote:We need specifict talents to go with HIGH IQ players that are versatile on both OFF and DEFENSE
While Carroll can guard 2's at time and on OFFENSE at times, it is also because they have multiple versatile talents on OFF and DEF, with HIGH IQ, unselfishness/ball movement/shooters/multiple post threats, and and systemDanny Green could play SG, SF, and even some PF the same way Caroll can, however, Carroll is closer to a SF and undersized PF
Briggs, I do not think posters here actually hate you, I surely do not, and even when I disagree with a lot of your opinions and how you come up with them, I enjoy reading and respect your thoughts
However, you tend to switch your opinons the past couple of years a lot more
For example, you have said that you believe we should draft OK4 or Towns nomatter what
Then you say we should sign Kanter no mater what
Then after that you say you are 90% positive that both Greg Monroe and WCS has been our plan all along that past 4 months
After that you come up with 10 possible trade scenarious that you believe will be better then keeping the pick
So which one is it really?
On the other post, I copy and pasted what another posters said, just so you understand it wasn't me, but I wanted to get rid of the trollThe way you come up with your own opinions, you use the same theories to justify why we should pick the players you want but at the same time, you disregard the same reasons/philospohy for another player you do not want
For example, you said Danny Green isn't a true SG, that he doesn't have the ability to play SG because he lacks speed, ability to penetrate, and you say that the reason why Danny Green is part of a system/players around him
However, Carroll is the same exact thing, but you would overpay for him, and claim he would be a steal, even when that deal would just be under 2m of a MAX contract that Drayond Green would receive who you think we are better off finding a cheaper options and developing our own
You contradict yourself and have said that he isn't worth that contract because we do not have Stephen Curry/Klay Thompson, etc
You have said since the beggining till now that Green isn't worthy of such a contract and you put him as a role player
But we do not have the same players/system for Carroll as well, you have said that you would give him a contract above 12m a year and say it would be a steal, which is just slightly less of what Draymond Green's salary would start at
This also goes for Kanter and Westbrook, the talent that OKC has, and the BIGS that OKC has but you disregard that
Opponents have to STOP WESTBROOK first and that is why Kanter is able to do what he does, because of Westbrook and the BIGS that can hide Kanter's weakness's
Phil Jackson is targetting players that FIT in to the system but you determine the value of players with STATS, placing too much emphasize on Boxscores without giving the other factors such as leadership and what the player is able to do elevate the team and what the team is able to do because of what the player brings to the system
Do not take it personal, we all have our own opinions, and do what you do, many of us enjoy reading it regardless
No I dont mean personally I mean Id rather stay away from this years free agency. I wouldnt do it this way--I dont think the free agents are there to change this team and Id rather continue to do what I can to use my cap space to grab picks. The free agents who could help change arent coming here--the ones who cant will cost a lot and will have small effect. Ron--in the long term what is my % of being wrong? Some but not much. Im telling you or anyone else--Danny Green would be a waste of time money and effort. We need to find our own players and let them develop together.
mreinman wrote:BRIGGS wrote:nixluva wrote:I'd like to remind everyone again of just what kind of production Danny Green has been giving. It's easy to just gloss over the facts and make decisions on pure passion. Among FA SG's only Jimmy Butler has better production. Danny from a defensive standpoint was even better than Butler! While I agree that it would be even better if Danny was more aggressive going to the basket, I don't think it's something to kill the guy over when he's doing so much else at a high level.
Rk Player Pos Age Tm G MP PER TS% 3PAr FTr ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/48 ▾ VORP
1 Jimmy Butler SG 25 CHI 65 2513 21.3 .583 .212 .508 5.1 11.2 8.2 14.4 2.3 1.0 7.7 21.6 8.2 3.0 11.2 .214 4.2
2 Danny Green SG 27 SAS 81 2312 16.5 .596 .619 .172 2.7 13.9 8.4 10.3 2.2 2.8 10.5 17.5 4.0 3.9 7.8 .163 4.1
3 W. Matthews SG 28 POR 60 2024 16.1 .586 .592 .193 2.1 9.5 5.9 10.8 1.9 0.4 9.0 19.8 4.0 2.2 6.2 .147 3.0
4 Alexey Shved SG 26 TOT 42 767 19.5 .541 .415 .448 3.3 11.7 7.3 25.7 2.0 0.6 10.7 26.3 1.7 0.5 2.2 .135 0.5
5 Mar Belinelli SG 28 SAS 62 1388 12.4 .553 .489 .211 2.2 10.5 6.4 10.3 1.1 0.2 10.6 18.8 1.5 1.4 2.9 .100 0.5By the time this team is good again Danny Green will have small NBA value.
Geez!
Can you at least try to refute the numbers that Nix is presenting?
I actually don't even understand the point BRIGGS is making. So we shouldn't consider Danny because the team won't be good anytime soon? Isn't the entire point of adding productive players to make the team better? Imagine if THJ played at the level of Danny Green? Think that would make a difference?
Imagine if we drafted Towns or Okafor and we have Danny at SG. He helps spread the floor for either big and helps defensively for either big as well. We could actually play any of our PG's next to Danny and it would make them better too. Galloway next to Danny would be better as would Schved. On top of all this Melo could use an outlet who is dependable from 3 and will help cover more ground defensively.
You could still go for DeMarre if you wanted to start Melo at PF and let DeMarre play SF. The idea of Danny and DeMarre helping defensively on the perimeter with Galloway sounds like a really strong perimeter defense to me.