Knicks · Old School Basketball Is Still Relevant (page 1)

There have been a lot of posters and media who bring up the new style of basketball which teams like the Warriors and Hawks are the best examples of. The thing that gets overlooked is that there are a few teams who are winning playing an old school style not much different than the Knicks play. The Grizzlies are winning with a style of play that is much more old school, tough defense, pounding inside with bigs.

Regular Season
3-point Field Goals Attempted Per Game Leaders
RK	TEAM	        PTS	FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	FTM	FTA	FT%	PPS	AFG%
1	Houston	        103.9	37.0	83.3	.444	11.4	32.7	.348	18.6	26.0	.715	1.25	.512
2	Cleveland	103.1	37.7	82.2	.458	10.1	27.5	.367	17.7	23.6	.751	1.25	.520
3	Portland	102.8	38.7	86.0	.450	9.8	27.2	.362	15.5	19.4	.801	1.20	.508
4	Golden State	110.0	41.6	87.0	.478	10.8	27.0	.398	16.0	20.8	.768	1.26	.540
5	LA Clippers	106.7	39.4	83.3	.473	10.1	26.9	.376	17.9	25.2	.710	1.28	.533
6	Philadelphia	92.0	33.7	82.6	.408	8.4	26.3	.320	16.1	23.8	.676	1.11	.459
7	Atlanta	        102.5	38.1	81.7	.466	10.0	26.2	.380	16.5	21.2	.778	1.26	.527
8	Dallas	        105.2	39.7	85.8	.463	8.9	25.4	.352	16.9	22.5	.752	1.23	.515
9	Toronto	        104.0	37.9	83.3	.455	8.9	25.1	.352	19.3	24.6	.787	1.25	.508
10	Phoenix	        102.4	38.8	85.8	.452	8.5	25.0	.341	16.4	21.5	.760	1.19	.501
Less than 24 3 point attempts
15	San Antonio	103.2	39.1	83.6	.468	8.3	22.5	.367	16.7	21.4	.780	1.23	.517
16	Chicago	        100.8	36.6	82.9	.442	7.9	22.3	.353	19.7	25.2	.783	1.22	.489
20	Brooklyn	98.0	37.4	83.0	.451	6.6	19.9	.331	16.6	22.2	.748	1.18	.491
21	New York	91.9	35.1	82.0	.428	6.8	19.7	.347	14.8	19.2	.769	1.12	.470
23	New Orleans	99.4	37.9	82.9	.457	7.1	19.3	.370	16.4	21.8	.751	1.20	.501
26	Milwaukee	97.8	37.6	82.0	.459	6.6	18.3	.363	16.0	21.1	.757	1.19	.499
27	Washington	98.5	38.3	82.8	.462	6.1	16.8	.360	15.9	21.4	.742	1.19	.499
29	Memphis	        98.3	37.8	82.5	.458	5.2	15.2	.339	17.6	22.8	.773	1.19	.489

The Knicks were among a group of playoff teams who also don't go nuts with 3pt shots. This is not to say that it's better or worse to have an offense that isn't as reliant on 3pt shooting. I just think it underscores that even in today's NBA you can be highly competitive running an Old School style of basketball. Phil's approach of building with good bigs as the foundation of the team as he's had in the past and running a post based offense is still relevant even now.

bill russell says the playoffs are about defense and matchups. memphis has a great defensive backcourt and presents matchup problems for golden state with gasol and randolph.

being "old school" is simply having a team that has most of its players play both ends of the court.

dk7th wrote:bill russell says the playoffs are about defense and matchups. memphis has a great defensive backcourt and presents matchup problems for golden state with gasol and randolph.

being "old school" is simply having a team that has most of its players play both ends of the court.

Not really arguing with the basic premise of your point. In fact you're just underscoring what I'm talking about. Phil intends to improve the teams defense. He wants 2 way players and he said that he doesn't intend for this team to be necessarily the highest scoring team in the league. He wants balance and he clearly wants perimeter D, size and rim protection along with legit post threats. Memphis is an Old School Team in that sense. They're not playing one of these modern styles of offense either.

The better defensive teams aren't just going to let you get open looks from the three that was allowed during the regular season..Most of GS threes were contested..

holfresh wrote:The better defensive teams aren't just going to let you get open looks from the three that was allowed during the regular season..Most of GS threes were contested..

Teams with good perimeter defenders as well as a shot blocking presence inside can limit the amount of open 3's a team gets and still defend the paint. GS doesn't really focus enough on the post as they play Outside in as opposed to Inside out. Memphis is so good defensively that they've made the adjustment to what GS does and can keep up with the Splash Brothers on the perimeter and still defend the paint effectively.

The Knicks didn't have great talent but it was wrong IMO for the Media and some fans to assume that the offense isn't good enough to win with because teams are playing a style emphasizing more 3's. Phil's approach has worked for him in the postseason and I trust that when he has upgraded the talent on this team he can be successful here with a similar approach.

The Triangle is designed to work with 2 Pivots and so having 2 bigs who can defend, rebound and score inside works in the regular season and especially in the Playoffs. Memphis is a good example of what the Knicks are likely to look like when Phil is done, only I think they'll be more proficient from 3 and hopefully he'll have a perimeter defender like Tony Allen but one who can also score.

if by old school you mean great defense, smart play and high percentage shots" then i agree. lol. but the game is still evolving into a small ball/pace and space game. u can thank that math stat geeks who never played basketball. lol

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:The better defensive teams aren't just going to let you get open looks from the three that was allowed during the regular season..Most of GS threes were contested..

Teams with good perimeter defenders as well as a shot blocking presence inside can limit the amount of open 3's a team gets and still defend the paint. GS doesn't really focus enough on the post as they play Outside in as opposed to Inside out. Memphis is so good defensively that they've made the adjustment to what GS does and can keep up with the Splash Brothers on the perimeter and still defend the paint effectively.

The Knicks didn't have great talent but it was wrong IMO for the Media and some fans to assume that the offense isn't good enough to win with because teams are playing a style emphasizing more 3's. Phil's approach has worked for him in the postseason and I trust that when he has upgraded the talent on this team he can be successful here with a similar approach.

The Triangle is designed to work with 2 Pivots and so having 2 bigs who can defend, rebound and score inside works in the regular season and especially in the Playoffs. Memphis is a good example of what the Knicks are likely to look like when Phil is done, only I think they'll be more proficient from 3 and hopefully he'll have a perimeter defender like Tony Allen but one who can also score.

I hate losing Shump..Guys like Shump value show up in the playoffs on the defensive end..Tony Allen is in a class of his own..

holfresh wrote:

nixluva wrote:

holfresh wrote:The better defensive teams aren't just going to let you get open looks from the three that was allowed during the regular season..Most of GS threes were contested..

Teams with good perimeter defenders as well as a shot blocking presence inside can limit the amount of open 3's a team gets and still defend the paint. GS doesn't really focus enough on the post as they play Outside in as opposed to Inside out. Memphis is so good defensively that they've made the adjustment to what GS does and can keep up with the Splash Brothers on the perimeter and still defend the paint effectively.

The Knicks didn't have great talent but it was wrong IMO for the Media and some fans to assume that the offense isn't good enough to win with because teams are playing a style emphasizing more 3's. Phil's approach has worked for him in the postseason and I trust that when he has upgraded the talent on this team he can be successful here with a similar approach.

The Triangle is designed to work with 2 Pivots and so having 2 bigs who can defend, rebound and score inside works in the regular season and especially in the Playoffs. Memphis is a good example of what the Knicks are likely to look like when Phil is done, only I think they'll be more proficient from 3 and hopefully he'll have a perimeter defender like Tony Allen but one who can also score.

I hate losing Shump..Guys like Shump value show up in the playoffs on the defensive end..Tony Allen is in a class of his own..

This is why i've been touting Danny Green for the Knicks. He's a top defender and also a guy who can score and make teams pay for doubling our post players. I think he's the perfect guy for the Knicks.

callmened wrote:if by old school you mean great defense, smart play and high percentage shots" then i agree. lol. but the game is still evolving into a small ball/pace and space game. u can thank that math stat geeks who never played basketball. lol

It's more than just playing great D. It's the way the team is constructed. Phil's approach is the same as Memphis. 2 legit low post threats and solid players around them. The offense runs Inside Out. Both aspects work together. Gasol and Zach is in the same vane as Bynum and Pau. I see Phil wanting to have a similar team make up for the Knicks.

I'm glad to see it- all this crap about 'the game has changed', how there is no need for 'old fashioned' post playing front court players anymore, and anyone who thinks hoisting up a zillion 3 pointers a game is, and always has been, fools gold, is just a old fashioned fool who hasn't got with 'the times'- was based only on the surprising regular season success of the Hawks, Warriors and Rockets. I'm not saying that approach can't be successful (there has always been teams that had regular season success with it- like the D'Antoni Suns) - but it's not the only way. Come playoff time heart (impossible to quantify), post play and defense become huge factors.

If you have time Nix could you post those teams playoff numbers? I asked because I believe Washington has increased their 3pt attempts significantly in the playoffs. They have possibly abandoned the Memphis way in the playoffs.

NBA.com has all the stats..Washington has increased its 3pts shooting by 7 shots per and also increased its 3pt connect rate by 7% pts as well..Their overall % is 46.6%..Wiz went from 36% connect in the regular season to 43% in the playoffs...So while they increase 3 pt output and connect, they haven't abandoned the two pt attempts..Washington opponents having been playing good defense..All other teams 3 pt attempts are down..Bulls 3pt % is higher by 4%..

Teams scoring the most points aren't winning..Its defense is the prevailing factor..If Opponents fg% is low then you are winning, except Cleveland, where Bulls opp fg% were better.But point differential was the prevailing factor, and Teams like Memphis are only scoring 98 pts per game..Clipper scoring 107 per Wiz at 105..All others less than 102..Overall defense and defending the three are winning games..

You basically need a complete team, the system running it wouldnt matter. When Conley was out Memphis didnt win. No different than any other year for Memphis and they still have yet to make the finals.

You also need the three point shot, the fact they are defended shows the value of such shots when they are made.

TripleThreat wrote:

nixluva wrote:There have been a lot of posters and media who bring up the new style of basketball which teams like the Warriors and Hawks are the best examples of. The thing that gets overlooked is ....

The thing that gets overlooked is the difference between the David Stern Era and the Adam Silver Era.

David Stern believed in marketing to the individual player and focusing on the individual "narrative" and the officiating and the way the Draft Lottery resulted supported that stance.

Stephen Curry is a great player, he does not however have the kind of cache where he is going to sell a billion pair of shoes or get a billion commercials or get into a ton of highlight reels from jumping over three guys to dunk a basketball. Same for Al Horford. In the old Stern era, the teams who didn't have the most individually marketable players played five on eight. Those extra three guys were the officials, who made no bones about essentially rigging games to get certain teams forward in certain years.

When the Kings were literally hammered down by the officials for the grand sake of making sure Dwayne Wade got to be the "superstar" and the Shaq vs Kobe "narrative" could push a little further, I'm not sure there was a more egregious example of how Stern ran things.

In the Adam Silver Era, he understands that like the NFL and MLB, a move towards actual parity and a structure that allows quick rebuilds/reboots is the best method for generating revenue.

There is no "new style of basketball". The advent of teams hoisting up record number of three point shots is the result of long range shooting becoming a specialty skill instead of a fundamental skill, which is in part a result of Stern pushing to get the most athletic dunkers front and center over fundamental team basketball. It was simply a shift given logistical realities around the game.

Team basketball always is the ideal state of playing the game. Just not under Stern. The Warriors and Hawks play team basketball. But they would not be this successful under Stern, not with the officials choking them out because they don't have more marketable players.

Team basketball has never gone out of style, it was just not as profitable and focusing the marketing around Kobe Bryant or a Blake Griffin or an anointed guy like a pre injury Rose.

Which is why the Knicks are, again, so far behind the curve.

The Knicks have a "star" player who excels as a 1 vs 1 isolation gunner. Great for the previous era under Stern, but not so much in the current environment where team basketball has the artificial restraints removed.

As for the Grizzlies, they play to their strengths. If their roster had more gunners, they'd do more gunning.

Which is also where the Knicks are so far behind the league curve. Running the antiquated Triangle is not playing to the strengths of the kind of personnel that Phil Jackson is likely go get, esp in the One And Done college era, but he doesn't seem to care.

You are giving Adam Silver way too much credit..I don't think these guys are marketable...What does Al Hartford do to make you say wow?? And he is an ok player, not great..Curry is marketable and is getting his time in the limelight..Shooting three pointers, however, isn't as appealing as out jumping a team and dunking over them, at least for me...This would have been Curry's time to put his stamp as the new era in the league..Defense is shutting him down...Curry looks mentally defeated..He is missing fts...Nothing in the NBA has changed, No marketable face of the league has emerged since LeBron..

knickscity wrote:You basically need a complete team, the system running it wouldnt matter. When Conley was out Memphis didnt win. No different than any other year for Memphis and they still have yet to make the finals.

You also need the three point shot, the fact they are defended shows the value of such shots when they are made.

What's actually is being shown is that defense is the most important factor..I think what you are seeing is that teams play hard in the playoffs..They don't always bring it in the regular season..So the teams that are having a special year in the regular season is motivated to come to play every night..They, therefore have an mental advantage over a team just trying to get thru the regular season...Once in the playoffs, it's a different ball game..If you play a good defensive team, you aren't going to get off that uncontested three...That's a huge factor when thinking about how many teams built their offense around that strategy...

Old school means a guy like Greg Monroe and Carmelo Anthony would actually have to play defense.

crzymdups wrote:Old school means a guy like Greg Monroe and Carmelo Anthony would actually have to play defense.

well ... lets just call them oldISH

crzymdups wrote:Old school means a guy like Greg Monroe and Carmelo Anthony would actually have to play defense.

Old School is not just defensive but on offense as well. Not every team is looking to play perimeter dominant basketball. Being able to effectively score inside and rebound is still a very effective and proven playoff tactic. You can win in different ways but to suggest that the Triangle is no longer relevant is wrong.

Phil's stated intention is to target more 2 way players and to put together a better defensive team. People can doubt or make jokes but he actually has the resources to do that this summer. We don't know if Greg Monroe will even be signed at this point. Even if he is, that's not the entire roster. It's very possible that we can still add a rim protector like Towns in the draft or another big in Free Agency. In addition we will likely add a better perimeter defender to the rotation. There are several 2 way guards in Free Agency.

would it be a bad trade if we can turn our draft pick in to

Walter Tavares
Shabazz Muhummuad
possibly one of the contracts of Carroll/Millsap/Horford or even Teague/Dennis Schoedder/Mike Muscula
Tony Wroten with a swap of Tim Hardway JR and Early
picks 31, 36, 50

Signing a BIG in Greg Monroe, LA, Marc Gasol

or cost efficient players like

Brandon Wright, Koufus, Thomas Robinson, Wesley Johnson, Gereld Green, Aminu, Wesley Matthews *with his injury at MLE type money or Ajinicia*, Derrick Williams, Jae Crowder, Meyers Leanard, Thomas Robinson

or if we turned our draft pick this summer in to

Greg Monroe, Reggie Jackson, Spencer Dwinwidie and a 2nd rounder

Vucevic and Tobias Harris with a 2nd rounder

Embid or Noel, Tony Wroten, Thomas Robinson, Covington, and some Philly's early/mid 2nd rounders with a future draft pick as well from us and swap Early and Tim Hardaway JR, throw ins

There simply are too many possible ways we can improve our team moving forward, however, until the ping pong balls are final in about 10 days, there are too many possible ways to speculate
How Phil Jackson can get the most out of our cap space/draft pick, and roster, to go with the development of talents, system, and coaches, will be evaluated with the FA class of 2017 with the rise of the cap, to be able to attract targets and better spend our salary cap

If CA is in the plan of our future or not, if we are able to acuire assets for his contract, and better spend that cap flexiblity this summer for cost efficient talents and TOP TIER talents in 2017 like Durant/Lebron, Whiteside/Horford, Pau Gasol/Noah, Gallo/Wilson Chandler/Battumm, Evan Turner/Randy Foye/DJ Augistine, Tyler Johnson/Justin Holiday, and many other possible FA's
If we will absorb contracts like Gereld Wallace, David Lee *who could be resigned on a reasonable deal and still be a 15/8/3 type player that would FIT in the Triangle*, for draft picks....
Until then there simply are too many possibilities.....

Will we build a team that resembles the Bulls, Lakers with Kobe/Shaq/Horry/Fox/Fisher/George, Kobe/Gasol/Bynum/Odom/Ariza/Fisher, a combination of those teams, or going in a different direction with a PG that could penetrate/facilitate/score, maybe even post up with Russell

While the PG's have been role players in the past, the PG could still be ONE OF THE 3 Triangles that we play off of to execute the system, it just hasn't been that way in the past
For instance Mudiay/Whitside/CA, with 2 glue players like Thanasis and another SF/PF, or PF/C maybe KAT, or even Durant/Shabazz/Mike Muscula/Meyers Leanrd, Gallo/Chandler/Battum, as well as Danny Green/Wesley Matthewws, Wesley Johnson etc...

Lets give a couple of seasons before fully evaluating what Phil Jackson does, giving him time to develop, with a team/roster that he will be putting together from the bottom up, with a culture change and actual draft picks and cap space to do something *my inner Nixluva, positive optimisim channeling, despite Isiah Thomas lurking with Dolan*

it really depends on the team, the players abilities, and their other skill sets with the system
There are many players that have mastered the mid range game and have counters to it that leave the mid range game impossible to defend
In no specific order and without even looking at STATS or Advanced STATS, I can come up with a list of talents that excelled in the mid range game at some point of their careers

1- Anthony Davis
2- LaMarcus Aldridge *prior to his wrist injury* and for much of his career
3- Cousins
4- Westbrook *prior to the injury of Durant*, he really played with much more control this year that he has lacked in previous years, he had to carry too much of a load with Ibaka and Durant out this year and exerted too much energy to be effective by the 4th quarter....
5- Pau Gasol also leads the entire league in double doubles
6- Marc Gasol
7- Chris Paul
8- Harden
9- Jordan *probably should be the TOP OF THE LIST FOR CLUTCHNESS* Kobe Bryant at some point of his career as well as Paul Pierce
10- Jimmy Butler, Kris Middleton, Klay Thompson
11- RIP, Reggie Miller, Ray Allen, Iverson
12- KG, Tim Duncan, Rasheed Wallace, Dirk, Bosh, Hakeem, David Robinson
13- Brook Lopez, Vucevuc, BIG Z/Rick Smits/Shawn Bradley/Ewing
14- Grant Hill, Tmac, Penny, Jalen Rose, Vince Carter
15- Brad Miller, Divac, Sabonis, Chris Webber *BIGS with the ability to pass especially when they had scorers/shooters/cuttors to space them with HIGH IQ*
16- Turkglu, Peja, Rashard Lewis, Kyle Korver
17- CA had a decent baseline turn around jumper earlier in his career that he doesn't utilize as much now
18- Oakley even had a decent mid range game

I am sure there are more players at some point of their careers that I am missing while many players
So it comes back to talent, the player himself, the system, and counters which usually is why the mid range is taken as it is the hardest shot for the opponent to take but there are many players that also have mastered it

Jordan, Anthony Davis, LA, Cousins, Pau Gasol, a young KG, are all players that I would trust with their mid range games all day, especially if they had a talented roster to go with their mid range games
While I have stated taht LA isn't a leader, I have also said that he would fit in with the Triangle for this reason, while he can rebound, block shots, provide steals better than a younger Dirk for the rebounding/defense department, while he has also added a 3pt shot if open, and is worthy of a MAX contract that could play both PF and some Center to create mismatches

If you are telling me that you do not trust the mid range of these players, I do not know what to say
One of your favorite players in Paul Pierce, mastered the mid range as well
With this list, there are many different ways the mid range could be utilized in many different positions, it can not be defended especially for some of the BIGS like AD, KG, LA, Gasol because of the same reasons TT has said of which there are exceptions to the mid range game

LA and a young Dirk took majority of the shots in the mid range and were close to 50% for much of their careers that has the ability to post up in mid range, beat their man off the dribble with a pump fake, and get fouled, as well as pass over their defender/facilitate