Knicks · The case for Willie Cauley-Stein (page 4)

To be clear -- I'd only want WCS in a trade down scenario where we pick up a guard like say down to #6 and also pick up McLemore from Kings or potentially the Nuggets and pick up Lawson/G-Harris from Nuggets.

Some type of deal where we add another starter and WCS --- otherwise just sit tight and take one of top 4 at #4.

BRIGGS wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

callmened wrote:i think his potential upside is a tyson 2.0 or djordan 2.0. he provides defense (esp against the pnr). little offense but by diving on pnr he creates spacing. hes the new prototypical bigman. with that said, i wouldnt use my #4 pick on him. i dont think hell ever be a franchise player

Yeah, that's the absolute best case scenario and it's improbable. If it does happen, he's probably many years away from it. If we are keeping Melo, then I was hoping the pick would get us a player who would be high impact while Melo was still in his prime. I think it's hard to justify taking him top 10 let alone top 4 though.

after the top 3, nobody really excites me.

I knew this was going to be holy hell if we didnt get a top 3 pick.

right ... and now people are making Russell and Mudiay out to be equal value prospects.

And, that Philly would take Mudiay ... hahaha funny

IMO Mudiay or WCS would actually be useful players for the Knicks at a low cost. They represent good talent at a low cost. It's gonna depend on what deals are offered. We don't have to trade our pick in order to grab players or picks from other teams. We can trade using Trade Exceptions as well. The Knicks have a few options. It's gonna take a really good offer to get the Knicks to trade that pick IMO.

mreinman wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

callmened wrote:i think his potential upside is a tyson 2.0 or djordan 2.0. he provides defense (esp against the pnr). little offense but by diving on pnr he creates spacing. hes the new prototypical bigman. with that said, i wouldnt use my #4 pick on him. i dont think hell ever be a franchise player

Yeah, that's the absolute best case scenario and it's improbable. If it does happen, he's probably many years away from it. If we are keeping Melo, then I was hoping the pick would get us a player who would be high impact while Melo was still in his prime. I think it's hard to justify taking him top 10 let alone top 4 though.

after the top 3, nobody really excites me.

I knew this was going to be holy hell if we didnt get a top 3 pick.

right ... and now people are making Russell and Mudiay out to be equal value prospects.

And, that Philly would take Mudiay ... hahaha funny

I don't know what you're talking about Mudiay was always a top prospect. Scouts that actually know what the F their talking about are the ones saying he's a worthy prospect.

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

callmened wrote:i think his potential upside is a tyson 2.0 or djordan 2.0. he provides defense (esp against the pnr). little offense but by diving on pnr he creates spacing. hes the new prototypical bigman. with that said, i wouldnt use my #4 pick on him. i dont think hell ever be a franchise player

Yeah, that's the absolute best case scenario and it's improbable. If it does happen, he's probably many years away from it. If we are keeping Melo, then I was hoping the pick would get us a player who would be high impact while Melo was still in his prime. I think it's hard to justify taking him top 10 let alone top 4 though.

after the top 3, nobody really excites me.

I knew this was going to be holy hell if we didnt get a top 3 pick.

right ... and now people are making Russell and Mudiay out to be equal value prospects.

And, that Philly would take Mudiay ... hahaha funny

I don't know what you're talking about Mudiay was always a top prospect. Scouts that actually know what the F their talking about are the ones saying he's a worthy prospect.

did I say not worthy? What the F are you saying?

I said that he and russell and far from equal.

Like I said for a while, if we get top 3, I am fine. After top 3, its a nose dive.

mreinman wrote:

nixluva wrote:

mreinman wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

callmened wrote:i think his potential upside is a tyson 2.0 or djordan 2.0. he provides defense (esp against the pnr). little offense but by diving on pnr he creates spacing. hes the new prototypical bigman. with that said, i wouldnt use my #4 pick on him. i dont think hell ever be a franchise player

Yeah, that's the absolute best case scenario and it's improbable. If it does happen, he's probably many years away from it. If we are keeping Melo, then I was hoping the pick would get us a player who would be high impact while Melo was still in his prime. I think it's hard to justify taking him top 10 let alone top 4 though.

after the top 3, nobody really excites me.

I knew this was going to be holy hell if we didnt get a top 3 pick.

right ... and now people are making Russell and Mudiay out to be equal value prospects.

And, that Philly would take Mudiay ... hahaha funny

I don't know what you're talking about Mudiay was always a top prospect. Scouts that actually know what the F their talking about are the ones saying he's a worthy prospect.

did I say not worthy? What the F are you saying?

I said that he and russell and far from equal.

Like I said for a while, if we get top 3, I am fine. After top 3, its a nose dive.

Thats my point. It's not a nose dive. Mudiay is not considered a nose dive away from Russell. Mudiay started as a top prospect and Russell gained over the course of the season. You're saying something that isn't supported by the facts. You're welcome to your own opinion but it's not a fact. The fact is that Mudiay was and is a top prospect.

mreinman wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

callmened wrote:i think his potential upside is a tyson 2.0 or djordan 2.0. he provides defense (esp against the pnr). little offense but by diving on pnr he creates spacing. hes the new prototypical bigman. with that said, i wouldnt use my #4 pick on him. i dont think hell ever be a franchise player

Yeah, that's the absolute best case scenario and it's improbable. If it does happen, he's probably many years away from it. If we are keeping Melo, then I was hoping the pick would get us a player who would be high impact while Melo was still in his prime. I think it's hard to justify taking him top 10 let alone top 4 though.

after the top 3, nobody really excites me.

I knew this was going to be holy hell if we didnt get a top 3 pick.

right ... and now people are making Russell and Mudiay out to be equal value prospects.

And, that Philly would take Mudiay ... hahaha funny

This was considered a 3 man deep draft...until we got the 4th pick

We should select this dude over Mudiay. He is not the prototypical/quintessential big man we can use in the paint, but this dude can certainly help impact our defense for years to come. Trade the fourth pick to Indy,Miami, or Charlotte and draft Stein and another player if a second pick is also exchanged.

It's funny. The CPR ratings have him as the 55th best prospect! Shea (the developer of the CPR system) did say he thinks Stein is better than that but thinks drafting him with a high or mid lottery pick would be bad.

Hi all, I'm new. What do people think is our biggest need? A potential all star defender or a potential all star PG??
I don't want to be using #4 to grab a talent who is projected to be picked later in the draft. But if we determine that the defender is who we want, then work out a trade with a team #6-10 and we get who we are willing to grab with #4 plus additional assets

Bonn1997 wrote:It's funny. The CPR ratings have him as the 55th best prospect! Shea (the developer of the CPR system) did say he thinks Stein is better than that but thinks drafting him with a high or mid lottery pick would be bad.

There's a lot about the college game that you have to discount because it doesn't translate to the NBA. It's just that much of a different game. Some players won't really be able to show their true worth in the college game. I read that CPR is based on college boxscores.

Updated (and in some cases final) CPR
By Stephen Shea, Ph.D. (@SteveShea33) March 24, 2015 College Prospect Rating (CPR) is a formula for approximating the pro potential of college prospects based on their college box score production. For more information, see these previous posts. Below are the CPR scores of 40 top college prospects (updated after the March 22 games). Thoughts In […]

Hamo49 wrote:Hi all, I'm new. What do people think is our biggest need? A potential all star defender or a potential all star PG??
I don't want to be using #4 to grab a talent who is projected to be picked later in the draft. But if we determine that the defender is who we want, then work out a trade with a team #6-10 and we get who we are willing to grab with #4 plus additional assets

Hamo--I think the NBA plays small. I don't think the Knicks should attempt to acquire BOTh Greg Monroe and WCS. That simply did NOT work in Detroit. It clogs the middle of the lane which creates problems for guards looking for driving lanes and various different types of offensive spacing. WCS is a poor passer he is not engaged at all times and buy this red flag--when you go into a title game and give a 2 point 5 rebound performance that was backed up by 4 other crp performances with extended minutes--buyer beware. Does he have good moments--yes. Does he sustain that play--no. As bad as WCS was against Wisconsin--he was abused worse by Pat Connaghtoun and the Irish. The better the opponent was this year--the worse WCS played. I really think he has a BUST factor even at 7-1. If the Knicks can slip down and find a pick for Jordan Mickey--I think he would be a much better choice--MUCH cheaper and can really guard 2-3-4 and even some 5. I think there are other cheaper options in the 2nd round that can give us better two way play.

^^^^Briggs Christmas has moved up almost to the first round in draftnet's mock. They have him going one pick after Mickey. If the Knicks can get a late first early second which guy would you take?

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^Briggs Christmas has moved up almost to the first round in draftnet's mock. They have him going one pick after Mickey. If the Knicks can get a late first early second which guy would you take?

Christmas showed a smooth game in Chicago. I dont doubt he moves up into late rd 1. I said watch the SL--other than Okafor and Towns Christmas will be one player that sticks out right away. Hes going to be a good solid nBA player. He has a post game a mid range shot and its somewhat rare to find a player with a 7-6 wingspan who has some of the attributes he has. Hes confident and hes good.

BRIGGS wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^Briggs Christmas has moved up almost to the first round in draftnet's mock. They have him going one pick after Mickey. If the Knicks can get a late first early second which guy would you take?

Christmas showed a smooth game in Chicago. I dont doubt he moves up into late rd 1. I said watch the SL--other than Okafor and Towns Christmas will be one player that sticks out right away. Hes going to be a good solid nBA player.

I agree. He was a guy I watched a lot. Haven't seen much of Mickey.

CrushAlot wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

CrushAlot wrote:^^^^Briggs Christmas has moved up almost to the first round in draftnet's mock. They have him going one pick after Mickey. If the Knicks can get a late first early second which guy would you take?

Christmas showed a smooth game in Chicago. I dont doubt he moves up into late rd 1. I said watch the SL--other than Okafor and Towns Christmas will be one player that sticks out right away. Hes going to be a good solid nBA player.

I agree. He was a guy I watched a lot. Haven't seen much of Mickey.

Christmas has more polish than Mickey because hes two years older but Mickey has a chance to be a top 3 defender from this draft class if not 1. He has a raw offensive game and hes 6-8 but he does score well and he should iron out and become a two way player. Think of something between Shawn Marion and Taj Gibson having a son.

nixluva wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:It's funny. The CPR ratings have him as the 55th best prospect! Shea (the developer of the CPR system) did say he thinks Stein is better than that but thinks drafting him with a high or mid lottery pick would be bad.

There's a lot about the college game that you have to discount because it doesn't translate to the NBA. It's just that much of a different game. Some players won't really be able to show their true worth in the college game. I read that CPR is based on college boxscores.

Updated (and in some cases final) CPR
By Stephen Shea, Ph.D. (@SteveShea33) March 24, 2015 College Prospect Rating (CPR) is a formula for approximating the pro potential of college prospects based on their college box score production. For more information, see these previous posts. Below are the CPR scores of 40 top college prospects (updated after the March 22 games). Thoughts In […]

Yeah, all metrics including win shares use box scores. I'm sure WCS does more than the box score captures but I highly doubt it's enough to bump him up fifty-one spots.

BRIGGS wrote:

Hamo49 wrote:Hi all, I'm new. What do people think is our biggest need? A potential all star defender or a potential all star PG??
I don't want to be using #4 to grab a talent who is projected to be picked later in the draft. But if we determine that the defender is who we want, then work out a trade with a team #6-10 and we get who we are willing to grab with #4 plus additional assets

Hamo--I think the NBA plays small. I don't think the Knicks should attempt to acquire BOTh Greg Monroe and WCS. That simply did NOT work in Detroit. It clogs the middle of the lane which creates problems for guards looking for driving lanes and various different types of offensive spacing. WCS is a poor passer he is not engaged at all times and buy this red flag--when you go into a title game and give a 2 point 5 rebound performance that was backed up by 4 other crp performances with extended minutes--buyer beware. Does he have good moments--yes. Does he sustain that play--no. As bad as WCS was against Wisconsin--he was abused worse by Pat Connaghtoun and the Irish. The better the opponent was this year--the worse WCS played. I really think he has a BUST factor even at 7-1. If the Knicks can slip down and find a pick for Jordan Mickey--I think he would be a much better choice--MUCH cheaper and can really guard 2-3-4 and even some 5. I think there are other cheaper options in the 2nd round that can give us better two way play.

Only thing i'll say in regards to this is that we don't run a system that has a problem with clogging the middle. By design it's a post offense. In fact the real name of the offense is the Triple Post Offense. Low Post Sideline Triangle. Pinch Post on the Weak side. Strong side 2 Man Game. Baseline V Cut. I can go on and on. It doesn't matter how other teams are playing. On this team we're running The Triangle. Since it's designed to work with Post players it's not about the lane being clogged. It's a constant motion offense! If you want to know how WCS would play in the offense I posted a video of Amundson who is a less talented player playing the role that WCS would play if he was on the team. There's no guess work involved.

Lou isn't a good player but you can see how it's possible for a player to stay active and keep moving, setting picks and screens and hustling on the boards. This is a motion offense and since players should be moving if they aren't posting there shouldn't be any issues with clogging. All of the movement is prescribed based on what the defense does. You have simple choices. Either you make an Inside Cut or an Outside Cut, Back Door Cut. Flash into the paint, set a screen, bounce out to the Elbow... The Point is you keep moving and passing and the timing and spacing on all of this becomes second nature over time.

Bonn1997 wrote:

mreinman wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

mreinman wrote:

Bonn1997 wrote:

callmened wrote:i think his potential upside is a tyson 2.0 or djordan 2.0. he provides defense (esp against the pnr). little offense but by diving on pnr he creates spacing. hes the new prototypical bigman. with that said, i wouldnt use my #4 pick on him. i dont think hell ever be a franchise player

Yeah, that's the absolute best case scenario and it's improbable. If it does happen, he's probably many years away from it. If we are keeping Melo, then I was hoping the pick would get us a player who would be high impact while Melo was still in his prime. I think it's hard to justify taking him top 10 let alone top 4 though.

after the top 3, nobody really excites me.

I knew this was going to be holy hell if we didnt get a top 3 pick.

right ... and now people are making Russell and Mudiay out to be equal value prospects.

And, that Philly would take Mudiay ... hahaha funny

This was considered a 3 man deep draft...until we got the 4th pick

It's always been a two-man draft in terms of immediate impact prospects as far as I was concerned. That said, Mudiay started the year as the #1 pick in many mocks. Heck, many mocks had him at two and three up until his injury in the CBA.

nixluva wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Hamo49 wrote:Hi all, I'm new. What do people think is our biggest need? A potential all star defender or a potential all star PG??
I don't want to be using #4 to grab a talent who is projected to be picked later in the draft. But if we determine that the defender is who we want, then work out a trade with a team #6-10 and we get who we are willing to grab with #4 plus additional assets

Hamo--I think the NBA plays small. I don't think the Knicks should attempt to acquire BOTh Greg Monroe and WCS. That simply did NOT work in Detroit. It clogs the middle of the lane which creates problems for guards looking for driving lanes and various different types of offensive spacing. WCS is a poor passer he is not engaged at all times and buy this red flag--when you go into a title game and give a 2 point 5 rebound performance that was backed up by 4 other crp performances with extended minutes--buyer beware. Does he have good moments--yes. Does he sustain that play--no. As bad as WCS was against Wisconsin--he was abused worse by Pat Connaghtoun and the Irish. The better the opponent was this year--the worse WCS played. I really think he has a BUST factor even at 7-1. If the Knicks can slip down and find a pick for Jordan Mickey--I think he would be a much better choice--MUCH cheaper and can really guard 2-3-4 and even some 5. I think there are other cheaper options in the 2nd round that can give us better two way play.

Only thing i'll say in regards to this is that we don't run a system that has a problem with clogging the middle. By design it's a post offense. In fact the real name of the offense is the Triple Post Offense. Low Post Sideline Triangle. Pinch Post on the Weak side. Strong side 2 Man Game. Baseline V Cut. I can go on and on. It doesn't matter how other teams are playing. On this team we're running The Triangle. Since it's designed to work with Post players it's not about the lane being clogged. It's a constant motion offense! If you want to know how WCS would play in the offense I posted a video of Amundson who is a less talented player playing the role that WCS would play if he was on the team. There's no guess work involved.

Lou isn't a good player but you can see how it's possible for a player to stay active and keep moving, setting picks and screens and hustling on the boards. This is a motion offense and since players should be moving if they aren't posting there shouldn't be any issues with clogging. All of the movement is prescribed based on what the defense does. You have simple choices. Either you make an Inside Cut or an Outside Cut, Back Door Cut. Flash into the paint, set a screen, bounce out to the Elbow... The Point is you keep moving and passing and the timing and spacing on all of this becomes second nature over time.

Thanks guys.
So with all the bigs available in free agency & later in the draft.. wouldn't we be better off grabbing which ever PG falls to #4 eg.Mudiay and then use our cap room for big's???