Knicks · The case for Justice Winslow (page 6)

Just 12 professional games in China are not enough of a sample to make Mudiay a lottery pick in my opinion.

Knicks1969 wrote:

Vmart wrote:

blkexec wrote:If Mudiay is that good, then Russell will be available at 4.....Otherwise get the best 2 way player in the draft. The important thing about 19yr olds is progression. Who has improved the most as freshmens. Winslow is a championship glue guy.....Locker room leader.....Leads with passion on the court. Leadership and Chemistry is just as important as skill sets .....just look at JR smith now and before. Winslow has instant chemistry with an increasing skill set against ACC talent. He has a proven record of playing a robin role with batman potential. Hes a low risk option. The rest of these names are high risk options at 4.

Mudiay
Prov....something (Euro)
Herog.....something (Euro)
WCS

Kaminsky might be a low risk option as well.....So Im happy with any of these three at 4.....

Russell
Winslow
Kaminsky

Mudiay isn't risky he is a safe as it gets. This guy played against professionals last year and did well. You can't use professionals and any college guys in the same sentence. All you could say about them is they are going pro.

How many professional games exactly are you talking about? Last I checked, this dude was hurt and played less then Twenty games.

Mudiay did come back for the Playoffs in China. He had a good game and one so so game. It was impressive because he came in cold after not playing most of the season. He had to fill in when Bynum got hurt also.

Beijing then shocked the Tigers by winning Game 2 on the road, 103-96 and suddenly Guangdong were frantically trying to dig themselves out of a hole. Jeff Adrien, the midseason acquisition at power forward was removed from the active roster and in his place, Emmanuel Mudiay was brought back in from the cold to take Adrien’s place.

The move was immediately controversial. Technically, playoff rosters are fixed and can’t be changed during the postseason. But Guangdong appeared to have found a loophole in the rules and exploited it in a desperate attempt to save the team’s season. Adrien had been ineffective against the rampaging Morris while Mudiay’s height and strength were expected to help cancel out Beijing’s huge backcourt tandem of 6”9 Sun Yue and 6”8 Li Gen.

Mudiay, who had been out for three months with an ankle injury, then bailed his team out in decisive fashion, scoring 24 points in a 110-99 Game 3 victory. Initially, the Tigers’ gamble looked like it would pay-off as Guangdong’s floor-spacing shooters gave Mudiay space to get to the rim but also knock down a couple of uncontested mid-range jumpers.

But the Ducks quickly figured out a way to stop Mudiay in a critical Game 4. With starting point guard Will Bynum struggling with injury, the Ducks knew Mudiay was the Tigers’ main ballhandler. As a result, the Ducks played a very aggressive pick-and-roll defense to try and panic Mudiay. The end result was the point guard going 5-of-14 from the floor and coughing up 6 turnovers.

With the Tigers’ point guards unable to get the offense going, an occasionally sluggish Beijing were always able to keep up with Guangdong. On the other end, Marbury would have 38 points but his overtime-forcing shot was the most important of all. Then in OT, Beijing’s youthful roster helped tire Guangdong and with 0.8 seconds to go, Zhu was on hand to rebound a Marbury three-pointer and stuff the ball home before the buzzer sounded.

http://www.sheridanhoops.com/2015/03/03/...

Knicks1969 wrote:Just 12 professional games in China are not enough of a sample to make Mudiay a lottery pick in my opinion.

Kyrie Irving
Season	School	G  MP   FG  FGA	 FG%  2P  2PA  2P%  3P  3PA  3P%   FT  FTA  FT%  TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PF  PTS
2010-11	Duke	11 27.5 5.0 9.5  .529 3.4 5.9  .569 1.6 3.5  .462  5.8 6.5  .901 3.4  4.3  1.5  0.5  2.5  2.1 17.5

Sometimes you can't be put off by a small sample size. It happens. They'll get a chance to take a good hard look at him in Workouts and assess everything they saw in his few gams as well as before that stint in China. Sometimes mistakes are made with players who played tons of games so it's not a guarantee. There are no guarantees.

Mudiay is clearly the best player at #4 in my opinion. He is an above competent player offensively and defensively at the point guard position, with definite all-star potential. Dwayne Wade is the appropriate comparison with respect to his drive and finish ability and, similarly, Mudiay at the 1 has both a size and quickness advantage. He is a matchup problem for every point guard in the league, especially in the weak side of the triangle.

Russell is a better percentage prospect (in a non-specified offense) because of his potential as high volume, high percentage 3 point shooter and off-the-ball versatility but, if used in a disciplined system, Mudiay's superior drive and finish/kick game could yield similar efficiency if surrounded by the right cast. Of course this raises additional challenges, but to me, Mudiay's exceptional talent in this arena as well as understated defensive potential puts him definitely above the rest of the draft.

codeunknown wrote:Mudiay is clearly the best player at #4 in my opinion. He is an above competent player offensively and defensively at the point guard position, with definite all-star potential. Dwayne Wade is the appropriate comparison with respect to his drive and finish ability and, similarly, Mudiay at the 1 has both a size and quickness advantage. He is a matchup problem for every point guard in the league, especially in the weak side of the triangle.

Russell is a better percentage prospect (in a non-specified offense) because of his potential as high volume, high percentage 3 point shooter and off-the-ball versatility but, if used in a disciplined system, Mudiay's superior drive and finish/kick game could yield similar efficiency if surrounded by the right cast. Of course this raises additional challenges, but to me, Mudiay's exceptional talent in this arena as well as understated defensive potential puts him definitely above the rest of the draft.

For me the thing to remember about Mudiay is that he will play a much different role on the Knicks. People keep looking at how he played in China but that's a completely different role than he'd have in the Triangle. He'd be in the Scoring Guard role here which was how Shved was used. It's an aggressive attack role. He'd be put in the wide open side of the floor opposite of the Triangle.

IMO Mudiay as the guard in the Pinch Post would be deadly. A quick, big guard like him in a 2 man game should be a problem for teams. It's the very reason that Shved looked so much better. They aren't being asked to run the entire offense. They only have to worry about one side of the floor and it's wide open with most of the D on the Triangle side of the floor. Simple decisions. Catch and Shoot, Give and Go or PnR. In any event they're in an aggressive mode all the time.

nixluva wrote:

Knicks1969 wrote:Just 12 professional games in China are not enough of a sample to make Mudiay a lottery pick in my opinion.

Kyrie Irving
Season	School	G  MP   FG  FGA	 FG%  2P  2PA  2P%  3P  3PA  3P%   FT  FTA  FT%  TRB  AST  STL  BLK  TOV  PF  PTS
2010-11	Duke	11 27.5 5.0 9.5  .529 3.4 5.9  .569 1.6 3.5  .462  5.8 6.5  .901 3.4  4.3  1.5  0.5  2.5  2.1 17.5

Sometimes you can't be put off by a small sample size. It happens. They'll get a chance to take a good hard look at him in Workouts and assess everything they saw in his few gams as well as before that stint in China. Sometimes mistakes are made with players who played tons of games so it's not a guarantee. There are no guarantees.

No one ever criticized Kirie's shot making ability. He was always known to be a scoring guard with silly dribbling ability

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:Mudiay is clearly the best player at #4 in my opinion. He is an above competent player offensively and defensively at the point guard position, with definite all-star potential. Dwayne Wade is the appropriate comparison with respect to his drive and finish ability and, similarly, Mudiay at the 1 has both a size and quickness advantage. He is a matchup problem for every point guard in the league, especially in the weak side of the triangle.

Russell is a better percentage prospect (in a non-specified offense) because of his potential as high volume, high percentage 3 point shooter and off-the-ball versatility but, if used in a disciplined system, Mudiay's superior drive and finish/kick game could yield similar efficiency if surrounded by the right cast. Of course this raises additional challenges, but to me, Mudiay's exceptional talent in this arena as well as understated defensive potential puts him definitely above the rest of the draft.

For me the thing to remember about Mudiay is that he will play a much different role on the Knicks. People keep looking at how he played in China but that's a completely different role than he'd have in the Triangle. He'd be in the Scoring Guard role here which was how Shved was used. It's an aggressive attack role. He'd be put in the wide open side of the floor opposite of the Triangle.

IMO Mudiay as the guard in the Pinch Post would be deadly. A quick, big guard like him in a 2 man game should be a problem for teams. It's the very reason that Shved looked so much better. They aren't being asked to run the entire offense. They only have to worry about one side of the floor and it's wide open with most of the D on the Triangle side of the floor. Simple decisions. Catch and Shoot, Give and Go or PnR. In any event they're in an aggressive mode all the time.

How good can this kid he without dominating the ball?

Knicks1969 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:Mudiay is clearly the best player at #4 in my opinion. He is an above competent player offensively and defensively at the point guard position, with definite all-star potential. Dwayne Wade is the appropriate comparison with respect to his drive and finish ability and, similarly, Mudiay at the 1 has both a size and quickness advantage. He is a matchup problem for every point guard in the league, especially in the weak side of the triangle.

Russell is a better percentage prospect (in a non-specified offense) because of his potential as high volume, high percentage 3 point shooter and off-the-ball versatility but, if used in a disciplined system, Mudiay's superior drive and finish/kick game could yield similar efficiency if surrounded by the right cast. Of course this raises additional challenges, but to me, Mudiay's exceptional talent in this arena as well as understated defensive potential puts him definitely above the rest of the draft.

For me the thing to remember about Mudiay is that he will play a much different role on the Knicks. People keep looking at how he played in China but that's a completely different role than he'd have in the Triangle. He'd be in the Scoring Guard role here which was how Shved was used. It's an aggressive attack role. He'd be put in the wide open side of the floor opposite of the Triangle.

IMO Mudiay as the guard in the Pinch Post would be deadly. A quick, big guard like him in a 2 man game should be a problem for teams. It's the very reason that Shved looked so much better. They aren't being asked to run the entire offense. They only have to worry about one side of the floor and it's wide open with most of the D on the Triangle side of the floor. Simple decisions. Catch and Shoot, Give and Go or PnR. In any event they're in an aggressive mode all the time.

How good can this kid he without dominating the ball?

I don't expect that Mudiay would be great without the ball but that's hard to say. He shot 34% in China from 3 which isn't horrible and could be improved on.

Season	Team GP	GS  Min	 FGM   FGA   FG%   3FGM  3FGA  3P%   FTM   FTA  FT%   FIC   OFF	 DEF  Reb   Ast   Stl   Blk   PF   TO    Pts
2014-15	GST  12	0   31.5 7.33  15.33 .478  1.08  3.17  .342  2.25  3.92 .574  13.76 2.00 4.25 6.25  5.92  1.58  0.08  1.58 3.25  18.00

Even though it was just 10 games, the best-case scenario is firmly secured for Mudiay. His play is the biggest reason why. In this golden era of point guard play, the 18-year-old is a can’t-miss prospect for teams with a hole at the position. He’s blessed with great size at 6’5, already has a chiseled frame at 200 lbs. and is an absolute joy to watch with the basketball in his hands. Mudiay has a unique blend of court vision, creativeness, strength, speed and agility that would have college basketball analysts ready to anoint him the next big thing if he were playing at SMU like he originally intended to out of high school. He did turn it over in excess, over three times nightly, but when you take into account his style of play and age, it’s hard to harp on it too much. He may be more of a shoot-first point guard in the mold of a Russell Westbrook or Kyrie Irving, but thanks to his size and ability to be a threat off of the ball whether it be by slashing to the hoop or spotting up, he can easily play the two as well.

http://www.basketballinsiders.com/emmanu...

Knicks1969 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:Mudiay is clearly the best player at #4 in my opinion. He is an above competent player offensively and defensively at the point guard position, with definite all-star potential. Dwayne Wade is the appropriate comparison with respect to his drive and finish ability and, similarly, Mudiay at the 1 has both a size and quickness advantage. He is a matchup problem for every point guard in the league, especially in the weak side of the triangle.

Russell is a better percentage prospect (in a non-specified offense) because of his potential as high volume, high percentage 3 point shooter and off-the-ball versatility but, if used in a disciplined system, Mudiay's superior drive and finish/kick game could yield similar efficiency if surrounded by the right cast. Of course this raises additional challenges, but to me, Mudiay's exceptional talent in this arena as well as understated defensive potential puts him definitely above the rest of the draft.

For me the thing to remember about Mudiay is that he will play a much different role on the Knicks. People keep looking at how he played in China but that's a completely different role than he'd have in the Triangle. He'd be in the Scoring Guard role here which was how Shved was used. It's an aggressive attack role. He'd be put in the wide open side of the floor opposite of the Triangle.

IMO Mudiay as the guard in the Pinch Post would be deadly. A quick, big guard like him in a 2 man game should be a problem for teams. It's the very reason that Shved looked so much better. They aren't being asked to run the entire offense. They only have to worry about one side of the floor and it's wide open with most of the D on the Triangle side of the floor. Simple decisions. Catch and Shoot, Give and Go or PnR. In any event they're in an aggressive mode all the time.

How good can this kid he without dominating the ball?

I have no problem with Mudiay dominating the ball if he continues his development and is paired with shooters and strong finishers at 4/5. He can operate well at multiple positions in the triangle with the above pieces.

Basically, JW is everything I wanted THJ to be. He shoots the ball very well, attacks the paint, plays in the post, defends well,sees the floor well, high IQ, etc. If Russell is not there, once again, I want JW.

It is time we start to make smart decision to set this franchise in he right direction.

Knicks1969 wrote:Just 12 professional games in China are not enough of a sample to make Mudiay a lottery pick in my opinion.

Mudiay and OK4 were #1 & #1A rated prospects coming out of high school. He was a Mcdonalds All American, played in the Jordan Classic, and Nike Hoops summit. He isn't an unknown like Dante Exum.

Knicks1969 wrote:

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:Mudiay is clearly the best player at #4 in my opinion. He is an above competent player offensively and defensively at the point guard position, with definite all-star potential. Dwayne Wade is the appropriate comparison with respect to his drive and finish ability and, similarly, Mudiay at the 1 has both a size and quickness advantage. He is a matchup problem for every point guard in the league, especially in the weak side of the triangle.

Russell is a better percentage prospect (in a non-specified offense) because of his potential as high volume, high percentage 3 point shooter and off-the-ball versatility but, if used in a disciplined system, Mudiay's superior drive and finish/kick game could yield similar efficiency if surrounded by the right cast. Of course this raises additional challenges, but to me, Mudiay's exceptional talent in this arena as well as understated defensive potential puts him definitely above the rest of the draft.

For me the thing to remember about Mudiay is that he will play a much different role on the Knicks. People keep looking at how he played in China but that's a completely different role than he'd have in the Triangle. He'd be in the Scoring Guard role here which was how Shved was used. It's an aggressive attack role. He'd be put in the wide open side of the floor opposite of the Triangle.

IMO Mudiay as the guard in the Pinch Post would be deadly. A quick, big guard like him in a 2 man game should be a problem for teams. It's the very reason that Shved looked so much better. They aren't being asked to run the entire offense. They only have to worry about one side of the floor and it's wide open with most of the D on the Triangle side of the floor. Simple decisions. Catch and Shoot, Give and Go or PnR. In any event they're in an aggressive mode all the time.

How good can this kid he without dominating the ball?

He will probably have the ball in his hands plenty even in the tri. He will get post opportunities and iso opportunities. He will probably get the same opportunities Kobe & Pippen had but at the PG position. The SGs will become the Derek Fisher, Ron Harper type.

Talent will always be exploited regardless of position.

Knicks1969 wrote:Basically, JW is everything I wanted THJ to be. He shoots the ball very well, attacks the paint, plays in the post, defends well,sees the floor well, high IQ, etc. If Russell is not there, once again, I want JW.

It is time we start to make smart decision to set this franchise in he right direction.

Winslow will be good but, at 4, he is probably not the "smart" decision. Both prospects are relatively safe and how they end up relative to each other is more art than science to predict - but I'd argue Mudiay has a higher ceiling, given his superior handle and agility.

In the end both Winslow and Mudiay are worthy picks, but it's gonna be up to Phil to figure out who gives us the best value at #4. Who has the best upside and best chance to actually maximize that potential. It's a tough decision IMO.

phil should make the right decision in building a winner which is clearly justise winslow but so far he has made several bad decisions so he may actually draft mudiay. happily drafting okafor is practically moot.

my opinion is that the knicks simply can't afford to gamble on a kid with a crappy jumper and who has played merely in the chinese basketball league. the knicks need two-way players in their starting lineup in a very bad way.

nixluva wrote:In the end both Winslow and Mudiay are worthy picks, but it's gonna be up to Phil to figure out who gives us the best value at #4. Who has the best upside and best chance to actually maximize that potential. It's a tough decision IMO.

picking mudiay is like picking a faster iman shumpert. that is at best a #10 pick... not #4.

We need to be patient with him when we pick him. He will need a little bit of work, and he won't magically blossom into Butler or Leonard overnight.

My the only one who would be cautious drafting a Duke player with a lottery pick? Given Duke's success and the amount of players they have put in the NBA, you would think there should be a better "superstar" ratio. I think Okafor will be a stud. Wondering however about Winslow.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv...

Knicks1969 wrote:Just 12 professional games in China are not enough of a sample to make Mudiay a lottery pick in my opinion.

It's funny because someone else posted that they thought the time in China would effect Mudiay's game and work habits causing him to never ful fill his potential. He was the #2 or #3 ranked prospect coming out of high school. My guess is he is taken in the top 4-5 picks.

Knicks1969 wrote:Just 12 professional games in China are not enough of a sample to make Mudiay a lottery pick in my opinion.

And what about his years of high school and coming out (by many) a number 1 pick? We throw that out?
What about those who never even went to college?

How about letting the guy workout and if he has clear star talent you throw out the lack of experience which was caused by a relatively minor injury?

I tell you this, we better be real careful with the pick and do our DD on the guy as he has star talent, 12 pro games or not.
Don't make arbitrary "rules" about selecting talent. Some other relatively unknown players (like the Croatian or Lithuanian cat) that we need to do our HW on as well.

EMS

he is good, it depends what knicks value more, i think mudiay is more advanced him on offensive end and passing but winslow has edge on defense