Knicks · The Case for Willie Trill Cauley Stein (page 20)

cauley stein is a weak rebounder for 7 footer

jbeachboy wrote:cauley stein is a weak rebounder for 7 footer

Meh! We're most likely going to pair him with Monroe anyway. The rebounding thing is a bit overstated since WCS spent so much time help defending on the perimeter and they had other bigs stay near the basket.

nixluva wrote:

jbeachboy wrote:cauley stein is a weak rebounder for 7 footer

Meh! We're most likely going to pair him with Monroe anyway. The rebounding thing is a bit overstated since WCS spent so much time help defending on the perimeter and they had other bigs stay near the basket.

That would never be my response. Monroe is barely an adequate backup on a team that is going far.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Will...

WCS had some very good teammates who were also rebounding.

martin wrote:

nixluva wrote:

jbeachboy wrote:cauley stein is a weak rebounder for 7 footer

Meh! We're most likely going to pair him with Monroe anyway. The rebounding thing is a bit overstated since WCS spent so much time help defending on the perimeter and they had other bigs stay near the basket.

That would never be my response. Monroe is barely an adequate backup on a team that is going far.

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Will...

WCS had some very good teammates who were also rebounding.

Perhaps my response is a bit too cynical. I just think the plan is to let WCS be the Free Safety in the Defense and make sure to have another strong rebounder in the lineup behind him. I actually think Monroe is going to surprise people with how much better he can be in the right system. Once they got rid of Josh Smith, Monroe performed better. We could do a lot worse than what Monroe was producing over that time before he got injured.

DATE	 MIN	FGM-FGA	  FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
January	 31.6	6.6-12.6  .526	0.0-0.0	 .000	3.6-4.5	 .792	12.6	2.6	0.6	0.9	1.9	2.2	16.9
February 34.4	6.6-13.3  .500	0.0-0.0	 .000	3.9-5.8	 .672	11.3	1.5	0.6	1.6	2.5	2.6	17.2
March	 33.9	7.3-14.1  .515	0.0-0.0	 .000	3.9-5.1	. 750	9.9	3.0	1.0	1.9	2.4	2.6	18.4

jbeachboy wrote:cauley stein is a weak rebounder for 7 footer

Stein was too busy guarding PnR plays away from the basket. That was also Kentucky’s scheme on how tbey used him. Thats why most of his rebounds were offensive.....on defense he was away from the basket.

blkexec wrote:

jbeachboy wrote:cauley stein is a weak rebounder for 7 footer

Stein was too busy guarding PnR plays away from the basket. That was also Kentucky’s scheme on how tbey used him. Thats why most of his rebounds were offensive.....on defense he was away from the basket.

absolutely correct.

This Finals series is just making me even more resolute that we need to build with Defense at the core. You can't just think you're going to build a finesse scoring team and that will save you when it comes to the playoffs and finals. You'd better have some answers for teams on D and a versatile enough team that you can find other ways to score besides shooting jumpers!!!

I believe If Phil drafts WCS he could set this team up for building a very strong defensive team. Of course we'd need a lot more than one player but he could be the start of the process and anchor a great defensive team. Ask yourselves if any of the kids we draft would be better than Steph and Klay? I say it's not likely. This is why I've been pushing for trying to build an elite defensive team. IMO you've got to be able to stop people and this is our chance to build the team the right way.

I think Mcgee is a reasonable comparison. Not putting undue weight on some physical attributes and correlating with the slope of in game improvement is key here.

it would feel weird drafting stein when mudiay and winslow are still available

codeunknown wrote:I think Mcgee is a reasonable comparison. Not putting undue weight on some physical attributes and correlating with the slope of in game improvement is key here.

Actually though about the same thing recently. Never saw McGee in college, though.

I actually think our old Knicks buddy Jeffries is a less athletic a slightly smaller version of Stein, and he looked a lot smoother on offense.

Sorry for the quality on the video...not my fault- looks like it came from VHS recordings.

jbeachboy wrote:it would feel weird drafting stein when mudiay and winslow are still available

I know it feels weird but it's the right move. WCS is that rare defensive center who can defend multiple positions and help defend at a high level. He loves doing it and understands how to properly help and recover. People really underestimate how big that is. He's not Javale McGee. McGee is actually not a very smart defender. WCS is a defensive genius compared to him.

WCS would help this team be a playoff contender every year. That's the kind of impact he can have.
No one knows what the real impact of Mudiay will be. WCS is ready to be a backstop for a team defense day one.

if they drafted stein, who would you get in free agency?

Nerlens Noel had a better defensive rating than Stein by 10 pts per 100 possessions in year 1 on the same team, confounders notwithstanding. Who's the bigger genius? Steins defensive rating over college seasons 1 and 2 was 91, 11 less than McGee at college season 1. Stein is at ~80 in year 3, while Trey Lyles is at 86, and Towns at 78: lots of shared minutes, who's really helping who here? Not buying the genius argument.

codeunknown wrote:Nerlens Noel had a better defensive rating than Stein by 10 pts per 100 possessions in year 1 on the same team, confounders notwithstanding. Who's the bigger genius? Steins defensive rating over college seasons 1 and 2 was 91, 11 less than McGee at college season 1. Stein is at ~80 in year 3, while Trey Lyles is at 86, and Towns at 78: lots of shared minutes, who's really helping who here? Not buying the genius argument.

I posted an article where a guy did research on WCS exact impact on D taking into account who he played with and he was the best defender on Kentucky. Teams scored 82 PPP with him on the floor and 90 PPP with him off the floor.

WCS also regularly guarded the other teams best player and he was the #1 help defender. He shut down PnR so well teams often gave up trying to run it. If you don't really know what the truth is about WCS defense you shouldn't be posting about what you don't know. Anyone with 2 good eyes can see he's an elite defender.

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:Nerlens Noel had a better defensive rating than Stein by 10 pts per 100 possessions in year 1 on the same team, confounders notwithstanding. Who's the bigger genius? Steins defensive rating over college seasons 1 and 2 was 91, 11 less than McGee at college season 1. Stein is at ~80 in year 3, while Trey Lyles is at 86, and Towns at 78: lots of shared minutes, who's really helping who here? Not buying the genius argument.

I posted an article where a guy did research on WCS exact impact on D taking into account who he played with and he was the best defender on Kentucky. Teams scored 82 PPP with him on the floor and 90 PPP with him off the floor.

WCS also regularly guarded the other teams best player and he was the #1 help defender. He shut down PnR so well teams often gave up trying to run it. If you don't really know what the truth is about WCS defense you shouldn't be posting about what you don't know. Anyone with 2 good eyes can see he's an elite defender.

Wrong again. Your interpretation of both statistics and what I'm saying is extremely poor. Isolation-plus-minus stats are riddled with error and I've detailed the reasons before, even if you couldn't understand them. Repeating these numbers is inane and doesn't address either the difficulty in quantifying impact, nor the relative advantages/disadvantages compared to defensive rating, which is less controlled for competition and less distorted by starter/bench artifact.

WCS is a good defensive player, but your estimation of his ability as a unique force is bizarre. It's obviously important to look at his relative worth compared to players of similar roles and physical attributes. And the data is not there to support he'll be better than McGee. If you're going optimistically on workout videos, then you may end up very disappointed.

codeunknown wrote:

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:Nerlens Noel had a better defensive rating than Stein by 10 pts per 100 possessions in year 1 on the same team, confounders notwithstanding. Who's the bigger genius? Steins defensive rating over college seasons 1 and 2 was 91, 11 less than McGee at college season 1. Stein is at ~80 in year 3, while Trey Lyles is at 86, and Towns at 78: lots of shared minutes, who's really helping who here? Not buying the genius argument.

I posted an article where a guy did research on WCS exact impact on D taking into account who he played with and he was the best defender on Kentucky. Teams scored 82 PPP with him on the floor and 90 PPP with him off the floor.

WCS also regularly guarded the other teams best player and he was the #1 help defender. He shut down PnR so well teams often gave up trying to run it. If you don't really know what the truth is about WCS defense you shouldn't be posting about what you don't know. Anyone with 2 good eyes can see he's an elite defender.

Wrong again. Your interpretation of both statistics and what I'm saying is extremely poor. Isolation-plus-minus stats are riddled with error and I've detailed the reasons before, even if you couldn't understand them. Repeating these numbers is inane and doesn't address either the difficulty in quantifying impact, nor the relative advantages/disadvantages compared to defensive rating, which is less controlled for competition and less distorted by starter/bench artifact.

WCS is a good defensive player, but your estimation of his ability as a unique force is bizarre. It's obviously important to look at his relative worth compared to players of similar roles and physical attributes. And the data is not there to support he'll be better than McGee. If you're going optimistically on workout videos, then you may end up very disappointed.

Admitted it may be hard to quantify with a stat but it's not an area of dispute among any who have seen WCS play. He's not McGee in terms of his understanding of how to play team defense nor his speed and agility on the perimeter. There aren't a lot of 7'ers with WCS's athletic ability and agility who also know how to apply those gifts on the defensive end. If you've ever listened to WCS talk about playing D you'd know he has a very good understanding of defensive concepts and isn't just running around out there. McGee is known for being a Bonehead and not a smart defender.

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:Nerlens Noel had a better defensive rating than Stein by 10 pts per 100 possessions in year 1 on the same team, confounders notwithstanding. Who's the bigger genius? Steins defensive rating over college seasons 1 and 2 was 91, 11 less than McGee at college season 1. Stein is at ~80 in year 3, while Trey Lyles is at 86, and Towns at 78: lots of shared minutes, who's really helping who here? Not buying the genius argument.

I posted an article where a guy did research on WCS exact impact on D taking into account who he played with and he was the best defender on Kentucky. Teams scored 82 PPP with him on the floor and 90 PPP with him off the floor.

WCS also regularly guarded the other teams best player and he was the #1 help defender. He shut down PnR so well teams often gave up trying to run it. If you don't really know what the truth is about WCS defense you shouldn't be posting about what you don't know. Anyone with 2 good eyes can see he's an elite defender.

Wrong again. Your interpretation of both statistics and what I'm saying is extremely poor. Isolation-plus-minus stats are riddled with error and I've detailed the reasons before, even if you couldn't understand them. Repeating these numbers is inane and doesn't address either the difficulty in quantifying impact, nor the relative advantages/disadvantages compared to defensive rating, which is less controlled for competition and less distorted by starter/bench artifact.

WCS is a good defensive player, but your estimation of his ability as a unique force is bizarre. It's obviously important to look at his relative worth compared to players of similar roles and physical attributes. And the data is not there to support he'll be better than McGee. If you're going optimistically on workout videos, then you may end up very disappointed.

Admitted it may be hard to quantify with a stat but it's not an area of dispute among any who have seen WCS play. He's not McGee in terms of his understanding of how to play team defense nor his speed and agility on the perimeter. There aren't a lot of 7'ers with WCS's athletic ability and agility who also know how to apply those gifts on the defensive end. If you've ever listened to WCS talk about playing D you'd know he has a very good understanding of defensive concepts and isn't just running around out there. McGee is known for being a Bonehead and not a smart defender.

Fair enough, lets check a couple of years from now and see how it unfolds. I'll wager that Stein's impact will be equal to or lower than Mcgee. Either way, it should be interesting.

codeunknown wrote:

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:Nerlens Noel had a better defensive rating than Stein by 10 pts per 100 possessions in year 1 on the same team, confounders notwithstanding. Who's the bigger genius? Steins defensive rating over college seasons 1 and 2 was 91, 11 less than McGee at college season 1. Stein is at ~80 in year 3, while Trey Lyles is at 86, and Towns at 78: lots of shared minutes, who's really helping who here? Not buying the genius argument.

I posted an article where a guy did research on WCS exact impact on D taking into account who he played with and he was the best defender on Kentucky. Teams scored 82 PPP with him on the floor and 90 PPP with him off the floor.

WCS also regularly guarded the other teams best player and he was the #1 help defender. He shut down PnR so well teams often gave up trying to run it. If you don't really know what the truth is about WCS defense you shouldn't be posting about what you don't know. Anyone with 2 good eyes can see he's an elite defender.

Wrong again. Your interpretation of both statistics and what I'm saying is extremely poor. Isolation-plus-minus stats are riddled with error and I've detailed the reasons before, even if you couldn't understand them. Repeating these numbers is inane and doesn't address either the difficulty in quantifying impact, nor the relative advantages/disadvantages compared to defensive rating, which is less controlled for competition and less distorted by starter/bench artifact.

WCS is a good defensive player, but your estimation of his ability as a unique force is bizarre. It's obviously important to look at his relative worth compared to players of similar roles and physical attributes. And the data is not there to support he'll be better than McGee. If you're going optimistically on workout videos, then you may end up very disappointed.

Admitted it may be hard to quantify with a stat but it's not an area of dispute among any who have seen WCS play. He's not McGee in terms of his understanding of how to play team defense nor his speed and agility on the perimeter. There aren't a lot of 7'ers with WCS's athletic ability and agility who also know how to apply those gifts on the defensive end. If you've ever listened to WCS talk about playing D you'd know he has a very good understanding of defensive concepts and isn't just running around out there. McGee is known for being a Bonehead and not a smart defender.

Fair enough, lets check a couple of years from now and see how it unfolds. I'll wager that Stein's impact will be equal to or lower than Mcgee. Either way, it should be interesting.

Wow.....even steins bust potential is higher than mcgee....stein at least has defensive IQ. Outside of that.....sure they both block shots and are limited offensively.

blkexec wrote:

codeunknown wrote:

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:

nixluva wrote:

codeunknown wrote:Nerlens Noel had a better defensive rating than Stein by 10 pts per 100 possessions in year 1 on the same team, confounders notwithstanding. Who's the bigger genius? Steins defensive rating over college seasons 1 and 2 was 91, 11 less than McGee at college season 1. Stein is at ~80 in year 3, while Trey Lyles is at 86, and Towns at 78: lots of shared minutes, who's really helping who here? Not buying the genius argument.

I posted an article where a guy did research on WCS exact impact on D taking into account who he played with and he was the best defender on Kentucky. Teams scored 82 PPP with him on the floor and 90 PPP with him off the floor.

WCS also regularly guarded the other teams best player and he was the #1 help defender. He shut down PnR so well teams often gave up trying to run it. If you don't really know what the truth is about WCS defense you shouldn't be posting about what you don't know. Anyone with 2 good eyes can see he's an elite defender.

Wrong again. Your interpretation of both statistics and what I'm saying is extremely poor. Isolation-plus-minus stats are riddled with error and I've detailed the reasons before, even if you couldn't understand them. Repeating these numbers is inane and doesn't address either the difficulty in quantifying impact, nor the relative advantages/disadvantages compared to defensive rating, which is less controlled for competition and less distorted by starter/bench artifact.

WCS is a good defensive player, but your estimation of his ability as a unique force is bizarre. It's obviously important to look at his relative worth compared to players of similar roles and physical attributes. And the data is not there to support he'll be better than McGee. If you're going optimistically on workout videos, then you may end up very disappointed.

Admitted it may be hard to quantify with a stat but it's not an area of dispute among any who have seen WCS play. He's not McGee in terms of his understanding of how to play team defense nor his speed and agility on the perimeter. There aren't a lot of 7'ers with WCS's athletic ability and agility who also know how to apply those gifts on the defensive end. If you've ever listened to WCS talk about playing D you'd know he has a very good understanding of defensive concepts and isn't just running around out there. McGee is known for being a Bonehead and not a smart defender.

Fair enough, lets check a couple of years from now and see how it unfolds. I'll wager that Stein's impact will be equal to or lower than Mcgee. Either way, it should be interesting.

Wow.....even steins bust potential is higher than mcgee....stein at least has defensive IQ. Outside of that.....sure they both block shots and are limited offensively.

I guess we disagree on Stein's bust potential.

I think the number 1 flaw that we will see with Stein is reaction time. When he receives the ball he thinks about it. The NBA is a MUCH faster game than even college where he just did not have brain patterns to react other than dunks or called defensive sets. Notice when he receives the ball--he simply has no reaction. Defenders converge and he takes a bad shot forces a bad pass or turns it over. There is two sides of the ball and both count. If you are deficient in one you cant take plays off like WCS has for 3 straight years. He doesnt make up for it with elite rebounding. Rather he is a porous rebounder for a defense first guy. It's a tribute to him that he seems to be improving his shot but at the same time we need to see game reaction and execution. You're making a bigt bet on WCS at 4. You are betting a great deal into a player with poor reaction time a man who looses focus and a player that over 3 full years never showed that he could be much of a help on the offense. There is two reasons why Kentucky lost in the final four---#1 WCS flopped big time and the coach didnt cut down the rotation. Javale Mcgee? Maybe I dont know--but like Walt said find just 1 raw man in the draft over the last 15 years taken at the top 10 who went on to successful NBA careers--just one.

BRIGGS WCS is going to be given an actual role on offense. We saw a career offensive scrub in Lou Amundson actually learn the system in very little time. He picked up the passes out of the post and the motion off the ball. I don't see WCS necessarily having a brain lock after being properly trained. It may take some time but we're not talking about rocket science. All of his duties would be very basic. The level of repetition on the details n fundamentals should eventually help his growth as a player. He's a hard worker and seems to be making good progress on his offense already.