Knicks · The Case for Willie Trill Cauley Stein (page 27)
WCS compares with other elite Defensive bigs who are not as strong offensively.
DeAndre Jordan
Dwight Howard
Joakim Noah
Andre Drummond
Tyson Chandler
Timofey Mozgov
Andrew Bogut
nixluva wrote:Some are simply overstating WCS's flaws. He may have had some moments where he wasn't aggressive offensively or maybe lost focus, but really that happens with so many young players in College. It's not a valid knock on the guy when compared with his many strengths. I think his talent is at Elite levels physically, which for a 7'er is great. He's refining his offensive skills which will only make him that much more of a big time player in the NBA.WCS compares with other elite Defensive bigs who are not as strong offensively.
DeAndre Jordan
Dwight Howard
Joakim Noah
Andre Drummond
Tyson Chandler
Timofey Mozgov
Andrew Bogut
If Stein can develop an offensive game close to Mosgov and still manage to go all out on defense, that dude will be an all star for years to come.
Knicks1969 wrote:nixluva wrote:Some are simply overstating WCS's flaws. He may have had some moments where he wasn't aggressive offensively or maybe lost focus, but really that happens with so many young players in College. It's not a valid knock on the guy when compared with his many strengths. I think his talent is at Elite levels physically, which for a 7'er is great. He's refining his offensive skills which will only make him that much more of a big time player in the NBA.WCS compares with other elite Defensive bigs who are not as strong offensively.
DeAndre Jordan
Dwight Howard
Joakim Noah
Andre Drummond
Tyson Chandler
Timofey Mozgov
Andrew BogutIf Stein can develop an offensive game close to Mosgov and still manage to go all out on defense, that dude will be an all star for years to come.
...and if I could regrow the hair I've been losing for 30 years I might not be grossed out when I see myself in a photo or video.
The circle-jerk which continues on this thread simply amazes me at times.
I will root for Stein to prove I don't know what I'm talking about if we take him, but he does not have a high BB IQ from the games I've seen him play, and his offensive fluidity is non-existent.
Hard for me fathom how a guy who turns 22 in a few months, who played on one of the best college programs in recent years for 3 years, can be trusted to do things he never did at the college level consistently, yet other players mentioned cannot make improvements to their bodies and improve upon their already abundant skills, which they've shown in competition. Stein, however, who never hit a 3 in college, I think, has actually been mentioned by a few guys as a potential 3 point shooter in the pros!
Many on the above list came into the league with marginal offensive skills, and for the most part, they've never made the kind of strides in their games that you expect players to make as they gain experience. Bogut had a sophisticated game in the post, by the way, and Mosgov was simply too much of an unknown to think he was offensively challenged. Noah is a high IQ kid who is a fine passer, even though you don't want him taking too many Js.
Stein needs the kind of team he had at KU, where he can protect his fellow big man and have limited offensive role. There is a reason why Cousins really wants him.
You don't want Stein in a sophisticated offense where he has to make a lot of decisions and deal with various options. That is not his game, despite all his college experience.
Wish there was more of this available, but this is what I dug up on Stein's HS record. There is a video of him scoring over some midgets in a HS game. Can't verify how true this stuff is, or whether there is more of it somewhere.
Willie Cauley's Basketball StatsCareerVar 11-12
Career Stats
Willie has played on 1 basketball team covered by MaxPreps. The accumulated varsity totals are in the last row of each table.Games Played
12
Points Per Game
12.1
Rebounds Per Game
3.6
Blocks Per Game
0.4
Points
145
Rebounds
43
Amazingly, you can almost see some similarities to his KU stats, although he improved his rebounding and blocks in college.
jbeachboy wrote:was he somehow limited cause he had to play with towns and lyles?Did they play on his high school team also? The high school stats that Walt posted don't look like those of a dominant big man on either side of the floor.
CrushAlot wrote:jbeachboy wrote:was he somehow limited cause he had to play with towns and lyles?Did they play on his high school team also? The high school stats that Walt posted don't look like those of a dominant big man on either side of the floor.
He played 12 games his senior year after the football season was over.
CrushAlot wrote:jbeachboy wrote:was he somehow limited cause he had to play with towns and lyles?Did they play on his high school team also? The high school stats that Walt posted don't look like those of a dominant big man on either side of the floor.
If you think he was so poor in HS basketball, how did he get recruited to Kentucky by Calipari who only recruits the top HS players in the country. The fact that it took WCS 3 years to develop could work to his advantage as he had 3 years of good college coaching and competition before entering the pros.
crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:jbeachboy wrote:was he somehow limited cause he had to play with towns and lyles?Did they play on his high school team also? The high school stats that Walt posted don't look like those of a dominant big man on either side of the floor.He played 12 games his senior year after the football season was over.
Still you'd think by accident he'd grab more than 3 rbs and block more than 0.4 shots a game. He was probably guarding guys like 6 inches shorter than him.
Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:jbeachboy wrote:was he somehow limited cause he had to play with towns and lyles?Did they play on his high school team also? The high school stats that Walt posted don't look like those of a dominant big man on either side of the floor.He played 12 games his senior year after the football season was over.
Still you'd think by accident he'd grab more than 3 rbs and block more than 0.4 shots a game. He was probably guarding guys like 6 inches shorter than him.
I never saw him play in high school, so I can't say. I've seen him over the past three years at Kentucky, though certainly not every game, and always liked him as a player.
Right now I am hoping and praying we some how get D'Angelo Russell. I'd be okay if the brain trust decided Porzingis was the guy. I'd be okay if the brain trust decided Winslow was the guy. I'd be okay if the brain trust decided Mudiay was the guy. I'd be happy if they decided Stein was the guy.
crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:crzymdups wrote:CrushAlot wrote:jbeachboy wrote:was he somehow limited cause he had to play with towns and lyles?Did they play on his high school team also? The high school stats that Walt posted don't look like those of a dominant big man on either side of the floor.He played 12 games his senior year after the football season was over.
Still you'd think by accident he'd grab more than 3 rbs and block more than 0.4 shots a game. He was probably guarding guys like 6 inches shorter than him.I never saw him play in high school, so I can't say. I've seen him over the past three years at Kentucky, though certainly not every game, and always liked him as a player.
Right now I am hoping and praying we some how get D'Angelo Russell. I'd be okay if the brain trust decided Porzingis was the guy. I'd be okay if the brain trust decided Winslow was the guy. I'd be okay if the brain trust decided Mudiay was the guy. I'd be happy if they decided Stein was the guy.
Yeah, Russell would be a dream scenario
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people questioned his consistency, work ethic, and passion for the game at kentucky, motor runs hot and cold, never which willey stein your going to get, hasnt been most reliable player , loses focus easily, doesnt always bring it
very limited in terms of scoring ability and feel for the game, solid footwork but lacks touch around the rim with both hands and hook shots, improved jumper recently, struggles vs pressure and double teams, out of control. no counter moves. teams go small and unable to makes teams pay on block.
shows solid footwork but is unable to convert up and under or step throughs, doesnt react to the defense at all too well. doesnt have a feel where guards are coming from on block, dribbles into double teams. misses point blank layups and floaters when has to rely on his offensive game at kentucky. sloppy ball handler, forces the issue,
limited ball handler,
forces drives when theres no seams, prone to dribbling off foot, had inconsistent jumper at kentucky
wasnt great rebounder due to strength, awareness, and role, not the most toughest phsycial guy , thin at 240 and got pushed around
Right now WCS looks like he's on the up swing with a better chance to realize his full potential. That's what the training has exposed. He's got more talent than he had shown so far, which is a good thing for the Knicks who need a defensive big like WCS. If he has improved his offense he's a possible All Star level talent and worthy of the #4 pick.
nixluva wrote:It's silly to go back to HS to try and assess what kind of player WCS has developed into now. Even his time at Kentucky isn't going to tell you the whole story. Why do you think teams went to Kentucky practices so much? There was more to see from all of their players. If we only went by the college season there'd be no need for further workouts. GM's and scouts know that these kids will get more intense training and diet help after the school year ends. Whatever talent they have is going to be enhanced by the time and training or exposed at the Combines and private workouts.Right now WCS looks like he's on the up swing with a better chance to realize his full potential. That's what the training has exposed. He's got more talent than he had shown so far, which is a good thing for the Knicks who need a defensive big like WCS. If he has improved his offense he's a possible All Star level talent and worthy of the #4 pick.
i dont want a major project like stein at 4
jbeachboy wrote:nixluva wrote:It's silly to go back to HS to try and assess what kind of player WCS has developed into now. Even his time at Kentucky isn't going to tell you the whole story. Why do you think teams went to Kentucky practices so much? There was more to see from all of their players. If we only went by the college season there'd be no need for further workouts. GM's and scouts know that these kids will get more intense training and diet help after the school year ends. Whatever talent they have is going to be enhanced by the time and training or exposed at the Combines and private workouts.Right now WCS looks like he's on the up swing with a better chance to realize his full potential. That's what the training has exposed. He's got more talent than he had shown so far, which is a good thing for the Knicks who need a defensive big like WCS. If he has improved his offense he's a possible All Star level talent and worthy of the #4 pick.
i dont want a major project like stein at 4
What makes you think WCS is a "major project"? He's one of the most NBA ready prospects in the draft. He can start day one based on his defense alone. Even if he isn't a great offensive player in isolation, he's gonna score in transition, on alleyoops, put backs, dump offs and slashing to the hole. He's gonna get to the foul line off of his high activity level. He's gonna score on PnR plays as well. So all that and he just needs to mix in a few jump hooks and mid range jumpers. He's not going to need a boatload of touches to have a great impact. There's no need to fear WCS at #4 at all. He's one of the safest picks in the draft.
nixluva wrote:jbeachboy wrote:nixluva wrote:It's silly to go back to HS to try and assess what kind of player WCS has developed into now. Even his time at Kentucky isn't going to tell you the whole story. Why do you think teams went to Kentucky practices so much? There was more to see from all of their players. If we only went by the college season there'd be no need for further workouts. GM's and scouts know that these kids will get more intense training and diet help after the school year ends. Whatever talent they have is going to be enhanced by the time and training or exposed at the Combines and private workouts.Right now WCS looks like he's on the up swing with a better chance to realize his full potential. That's what the training has exposed. He's got more talent than he had shown so far, which is a good thing for the Knicks who need a defensive big like WCS. If he has improved his offense he's a possible All Star level talent and worthy of the #4 pick.
i dont want a major project like stein at 4
What makes you think WCS is a "major project"? He's one of the most NBA ready prospects in the draft. He can start day one based on his defense alone. Even if he isn't a great offensive player in isolation, he's gonna score in transition, on alleyoops, put backs, dump offs and slashing to the hole. He's gonna get to the foul line off of his high activity level. He's gonna score on PnR plays as well. So all that and he just needs to mix in a few jump hooks and mid range jumpers. He's not going to need a boatload of touches to have a great impact. There's no need to fear WCS at #4 at all. He's one of the safest picks in the draft.
these were his weaknesses at the college level and now he has to try to fix this at the nba level on the fly, im hoping to see it, he is definitely what phil was describing in that meeting
jbeachboy wrote:nixluva wrote:jbeachboy wrote:nixluva wrote:It's silly to go back to HS to try and assess what kind of player WCS has developed into now. Even his time at Kentucky isn't going to tell you the whole story. Why do you think teams went to Kentucky practices so much? There was more to see from all of their players. If we only went by the college season there'd be no need for further workouts. GM's and scouts know that these kids will get more intense training and diet help after the school year ends. Whatever talent they have is going to be enhanced by the time and training or exposed at the Combines and private workouts.Right now WCS looks like he's on the up swing with a better chance to realize his full potential. That's what the training has exposed. He's got more talent than he had shown so far, which is a good thing for the Knicks who need a defensive big like WCS. If he has improved his offense he's a possible All Star level talent and worthy of the #4 pick.
i dont want a major project like stein at 4
What makes you think WCS is a "major project"? He's one of the most NBA ready prospects in the draft. He can start day one based on his defense alone. Even if he isn't a great offensive player in isolation, he's gonna score in transition, on alleyoops, put backs, dump offs and slashing to the hole. He's gonna get to the foul line off of his high activity level. He's gonna score on PnR plays as well. So all that and he just needs to mix in a few jump hooks and mid range jumpers. He's not going to need a boatload of touches to have a great impact. There's no need to fear WCS at #4 at all. He's one of the safest picks in the draft.
these were his weaknesses at the college level and now he has to try to fix this at the nba level on the fly, im hoping to see it, he is definitely what phil was describing in that meeting
Don't get too caught up in those "weaknesses". It really depends on what kind of weakness we're talking about. Some are relatively minor issues. Some are skills which can be improved on with hard work, which WCS has clearly been doing. Anyone can improve on ball skills, shooting technique and form, footwork etc. WCS has been showing just how much improvement he's made in all of his workouts. He hasn't looked shaky or tentative at all. Instead he's looked smooth and comfortable in everything he's been asked to show.
Like I said. He's making spin moves left and right. He's making post moves and putting up shots with his left and right hand. He's stroking not just from mid range but from 3 as well. This isn't some fluke. Dude is showing that he has more ability than he may have shown in college. That's doesn't mean it's a mirage. It could just be that he finally got great training and focused on it.
Also as I've said he isn't going to be expected to be the primary focus of the offense like OK4. That's not his thing. He can however be a great defender and a capable scorer in the flow of the offense. 12-14 points 10 rebs, 2 blks, 1.5 stls and he's an All Star for sure. If he can hit a couple of Jumpers and Jump Hooks a night he'll achieve that kind of production.
martin wrote:Interesting read
Yeah I read that article before. It's chock full of amazing statistical info.
No big man has ever recorded a quicker time in the lane agility drill, which assesses body control and change of direction ability. And with a 147-inch maximum vertical reach, few bigs even come close to Cauley-Stein's length.But Cauley-Stein athleticism doesn't only shine in his practice shorts. John Calipari has used his bouncy big man as a defensive stopper by having him harass the opponent's best player, regardless of their position. The 21-year-old has the lateral quickness to defend at least three positions in the NBA, though he can defend all five in college while wearing a blindfold. Big men should not be able to stay with NBA-quality guards like Grant.
"I don't think many (players could've blocked that shot). I barely got it. Anthony Davis could've gotten it," Cauley-Stein said when asked about that block. "The step-back is probably one of the fastest step-backs I've guarded. (Grant's) good at it. He knows how to set you up just to get you just enough space. I'm fortunate I even got my fingertips on it."
It's not out of the question for Cauley-Stein to actually defend all five positions in the NBA. Consider his measurements:
Very few players are as fast and laterally-quick as Cauley-Stein, much less big men. Only seven players have lane agility and sprint scores that combine for fewer seconds than him, and none of them measure over 6'4.
As more NBA teams switch pick and rolls and off-ball screens, many head coaches will feel comfortable allowing Cauley-Stein to defend the perimeter. Most big men get exposed if they're away from the paint. Cauley-Stein won't be, offering his NBA team unique versatility.
We've talked about his lateral quickness, but he can protect the rim too. If a team rotation is missed, he's swift enough to get to the other side of the court and long enough to block or at least deter the play. And he has even matured to the point where he resists the natural urge of a young shot blocker to leave his feet and commit fouls. These defensive attributes will all translate to the next level.
martin wrote:Interesting read
Nice find......it's amazing how people dislike Stein. He's exactly what we need now and even 10 yrs from now.