Knicks · The Case for Willie Trill Cauley Stein (page 29)
wargames wrote:CrushAlot wrote:The celtics reportedly think he will be on the board at 9 and are trying to trade with the Hornets. If the Knicks don't mess up at 4 I think they are right.I really don't see WCS falling past 6. The Kings want him because he would fit in great with Cousins and Cousins has said he wants him as well.
Everybody would love to play with a guy like this. In this day where it's all about offense and highlights, players that know how to play individual and team defense are extremely valuable to the team. Everybody has turned into pretty boys these days. The old Pistons and Knicks type of defensive players are very limited, because they don't sale tickets. Offense sells tickets, so thats what everybody likes to do. You can see it in pickup games.....It's like they just let their man score, so they can leak out and get a quick bucket.
Every big man or PF would love to have a defensive partner to do their dirty work. Especially Cousins, who's all about offense.
I think Stein could have a similar impact to Nerlens Noel, honestly. Noel was supposed to have zero offensive game and put up similar numbers to Stein at Kentucky and he's very effective in the NBA. Noel is all over the court for Philly and changes their dynamic immediately.
I think the Ibaka comparisons are spot on, too. Ibaka used to be a liability offensively, but he developed that little mid-range jumper and he gets a lot of kickouts from Westbrook and Durant and nails them with consistency.
crzymdups wrote:I watched Kentucky a lot early in the year. I saw that game where Stein shut down #6 ranked Texas and Myles Turner. I tuned into Kentucky games to check out Towns when it was clear the Knicks would be terrible... in the early part of the season I was far more impressed by Stein. They used him on pick and rolls. A lot of college teams just gave up running their pick and roll play because Stein could harass it so well. By the tournament, Towns was clearly the more developed offensive player, but Stein was still put on the opposing PG a lot and used to shut down pick and roll play. I think honestly his defense is more effective guarding pick and rolls and as a weak side shot blocker, rather than guarding a burly post man one on one. But theoretically, you could put Monroe on the post player and let Stein roam for weakside blocks and put him on the pick and roll action at the top of the key, no matter who is running the pick and roll - even if it's not an opposing center. He can switch onto almost any PG in the NBA and cover him effectively, I'd bet. Maybe Wall gets by him, but the list of guys quicker than him is short.I think Stein could have a similar impact to Nerlens Noel, honestly. Noel was supposed to have zero offensive game and put up similar numbers to Stein at Kentucky and he's very effective in the NBA. Noel is all over the court for Philly and changes their dynamic immediately.
I think the Ibaka comparisons are spot on, too. Ibaka used to be a liability offensively, but he developed that little mid-range jumper and he gets a lot of kickouts from Westbrook and Durant and nails them with consistency.
Thanks. So I wonder why Noels got pumped up to almost the #1 spot and WCS doesnt? Cause WCS stayed 3 years?
martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:I watched Kentucky a lot early in the year. I saw that game where Stein shut down #6 ranked Texas and Myles Turner. I tuned into Kentucky games to check out Towns when it was clear the Knicks would be terrible... in the early part of the season I was far more impressed by Stein. They used him on pick and rolls. A lot of college teams just gave up running their pick and roll play because Stein could harass it so well. By the tournament, Towns was clearly the more developed offensive player, but Stein was still put on the opposing PG a lot and used to shut down pick and roll play. I think honestly his defense is more effective guarding pick and rolls and as a weak side shot blocker, rather than guarding a burly post man one on one. But theoretically, you could put Monroe on the post player and let Stein roam for weakside blocks and put him on the pick and roll action at the top of the key, no matter who is running the pick and roll - even if it's not an opposing center. He can switch onto almost any PG in the NBA and cover him effectively, I'd bet. Maybe Wall gets by him, but the list of guys quicker than him is short.I think Stein could have a similar impact to Nerlens Noel, honestly. Noel was supposed to have zero offensive game and put up similar numbers to Stein at Kentucky and he's very effective in the NBA. Noel is all over the court for Philly and changes their dynamic immediately.
I think the Ibaka comparisons are spot on, too. Ibaka used to be a liability offensively, but he developed that little mid-range jumper and he gets a lot of kickouts from Westbrook and Durant and nails them with consistency.
Thanks. So I wonder why Noels got pumped up to almost the #1 spot and WCS doesnt? Cause WCS stayed 3 years?
Its a combination of his low all around stats as a 3rd yr big man. His stats doesnt show his value.....and they can be mis leading. Then he flopped against kaminsky which was a highly televised game.
martin wrote:So who watched Stein all year? How would you qualify his defensive prowess in comparison to Okafor's offensive prowess?
IMO WCS would have a great impact on the team's defense and would actually enhance the offense with his activity and hustle. WCS can help apply great pressure on D. WCS gets steals which is a bit understated part of his game. Even when he gets beat he gets back into the play and can still get a hand on shots. His help D and recovery is great. He has full understanding of defensive principles. WCS will get back on D at a high level, which is important. He's fast enough down players on fast breaks.
I think WCS scores well enough without the ball that he shouldn't be a problem on that end. He has just enough ability to execute a basic Jump Hook and also face up and either drive or take the jumper. His detractors say he never showed this but that's not true. He may not have don't it enough but he did actually show he could make those kinds of plays. He was inconsistent and needed more refinement of those skills but he did flash the ability.
Okafor is a load down low and you can surely run an offense thru him in the post. IMO you MUST have shooting around him. He'll pass out of a double effectively. I think he'll develop his mid range jumper. I'm REALLY concerned with Okafor's effectiveness late in games. His inability to hit FT's could really be a problem. I'm concerned about his ability to give max effort on both ends. I think he'll gas out if he was put in a fast paced game and asked to give effort defensively.
Okafor is the better player in a vacuum, but it's really a lot closer than some would admit. A lot of what WCS does isn't as easy to quantify with stats. WCS often took away the PnR game of teams to the point where they stopped really trying to use that play. He turned away a lot of players going to the basket but those kinds of things don't really have a stat. WCS also came to the game later than most of the top players. He's just now really coming into a similar skill level as those who started earlier.
These numbers don't really do justice to either player but it's at least something to use as a gauge. These guys are complete opposite sides of the Spectrum as bigs.
G ▾ PER TS% eFG% 3PAr FTr PProd ORB% DRB% TRB% AST% STL% BLK% TOV% USG% OWS DWS WS WS/40 OBPM DBPM BPM
WCS 39 23.8 .588 .572 .000 .542 344 11.1 17.3 14.5 7.4 2.9 7.1 13.9 17.8 2.6 3.4 6.0 .239 4.7 10.0 14.7
OK4 38 30.7 .641 .664 .000 .462 609 14.8 18.2 16.6 9.4 1.5 4.5 15.6 27.6 4.5 2.2 6.7 .235 6.8 4.1 10.9
martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:I watched Kentucky a lot early in the year. I saw that game where Stein shut down #6 ranked Texas and Myles Turner. I tuned into Kentucky games to check out Towns when it was clear the Knicks would be terrible... in the early part of the season I was far more impressed by Stein. They used him on pick and rolls. A lot of college teams just gave up running their pick and roll play because Stein could harass it so well. By the tournament, Towns was clearly the more developed offensive player, but Stein was still put on the opposing PG a lot and used to shut down pick and roll play. I think honestly his defense is more effective guarding pick and rolls and as a weak side shot blocker, rather than guarding a burly post man one on one. But theoretically, you could put Monroe on the post player and let Stein roam for weakside blocks and put him on the pick and roll action at the top of the key, no matter who is running the pick and roll - even if it's not an opposing center. He can switch onto almost any PG in the NBA and cover him effectively, I'd bet. Maybe Wall gets by him, but the list of guys quicker than him is short.I think Stein could have a similar impact to Nerlens Noel, honestly. Noel was supposed to have zero offensive game and put up similar numbers to Stein at Kentucky and he's very effective in the NBA. Noel is all over the court for Philly and changes their dynamic immediately.
I think the Ibaka comparisons are spot on, too. Ibaka used to be a liability offensively, but he developed that little mid-range jumper and he gets a lot of kickouts from Westbrook and Durant and nails them with consistency.
Thanks. So I wonder why Noels got pumped up to almost the #1 spot and WCS doesnt? Cause WCS stayed 3 years?
Yeah, I think that's part of it, for sure. Stein had good numbers his sophomore year but got injured. I have a feeling if he were healthy he would've come out after his sophomore season.
If you look at Kentucky, this year more than any other, they were absolutely loaded with talent. They have four guys slotted to go in the top 13, none of whom averaged more than 10ppg. I think it kept a lot of their numbers down. On a less loaded team, I think guys like Booker and Lyles would've scored more like 15-18ppg.
I think Stein's limitations on offense scare people. You don't want to pass on Mudiay or Winslow and see them become 20ppg all-stars in the NBA. I dunno. I sort of can't wait until this is over.
blkexec wrote:There are valid points why people are skeptical about stein... but to be honest there are negative points about everybody....especially at whos available at 4....after the top 3. Its all about picking your poison. Can we live with a pick that doesnt progress to their potential? In steins case i think we can. Worse case hes a defensive stopper. Thats his bust level. Best case hes a jump shooting Ibaka. Can we live with the other worst case selection? Porzingis is the scariest worst case....because we already have those guys now. Soft jump shooting bigs.
Yeah, I think if you are drafting like that Winslow becomes the pick - he's sort of the safe pick and easy to project.
What do people feel is Mudiay's worst case? He's the one I worry about passing on. Well he and Winslow.
I do like Stein, I just don't want to miss on the other two.
crzymdups wrote:blkexec wrote:There are valid points why people are skeptical about stein... but to be honest there are negative points about everybody....especially at whos available at 4....after the top 3. Its all about picking your poison. Can we live with a pick that doesnt progress to their potential? In steins case i think we can. Worse case hes a defensive stopper. Thats his bust level. Best case hes a jump shooting Ibaka. Can we live with the other worst case selection? Porzingis is the scariest worst case....because we already have those guys now. Soft jump shooting bigs.Yeah, I think if you are drafting like that Winslow becomes the pick - he's sort of the safe pick and easy to project.
What do people feel is Mudiay's worst case? He's the one I worry about passing on. Well he and Winslow.
I do like Stein, I just don't want to miss on the other two.
My worry is mudiay and Porzingis....i think their ceilings are very high....winslow as well....hes very self motivated and i can see him as a gym rat with leadership skills.....something we need.
nixluva wrote:I think there's a better chance that WCS reaches his full potential than there is that he busts. Winslow is safe but I actually do have some issues with him. He was in a great situation in college. I don't know if he's Draymond Green, Jimmy Butler or just a guy who was able to take advantage of playing against slower players but won't have the same advantage at the next level. I don't see Winslow as having any distinct advantage physically in the NBA. He's just another wing at the NBA level IMO. He's not Elite Athletically at his position like WCS is. Wins will be facing the greatest collection of athletes he's ever seen at the NBA level. I'm not sure he's special at the next level. You can count on one hand the 7'ers who are at the level of WCS athletically.
I actually think winslow is the perfect player for teams that play small ball.....he can defend guys that are taller or bigger than him. But i dont know if he will be affective at SG.....vs PF where he can use his quickness against bigger guys. I like stein as well.....along with 5 other guys. So i guess the good news is that i will not be disappointed in our selection.
jbeachboy wrote:looks like they may trade the pick now
What makes you say that? I know there have been rumors but is there some new info you're basing this on?
nixluva wrote:jbeachboy wrote:looks like they may trade the pick now
What makes you say that? I know there have been rumors but is there some new info you're basing this on?
bunch of new articles, draft rumors, real gm, have been mentioning, nuggets, lyles, kaminsky , just rumors for now, knicks dont like anyone past top 3 guys
jbeachboy wrote:nixluva wrote:jbeachboy wrote:looks like they may trade the pick now
What makes you say that? I know there have been rumors but is there some new info you're basing this on?bunch of new articles, draft rumors, real gm, have been mentioning, nuggets, lyles, kaminsky , just rumors for now, knicks dont like anyone past top 3 guys
I wouldn't put any faith in those rumors. It's not likely than any of those media outlets really knows what the Knicks are thinking internally. This is a very good draft and there are some quality players in the top 10. That said there is some chance that a team makes the Knicks an offer they can't refuse. Short of that I don't see them trading this high a pick. They'd have to receive greater value for doing something like that.
All it would take is for Philly to draft KrisP and that would set the stage for a lot of action with the Knicks pick at #4. The phones would light up like Times Square.
Draft Express current Mock
1. Karl Towns
PF/C (Kentucky - Freshman)
19.5 years old | 7'0" | 248 lbs2014-15 NCAA (39 GP)
10.3 PPG 6.7 RPG 1.1 APG 31.9 PER2. Jahlil Okafor
C (Duke - Freshman)
19.5 years old | 6'11" | 272 lbs2014-15 NCAA (38 GP)
17.3 PPG 8.6 RPG 1.3 APG 31.0 PER
3. Kristaps Porzingis
PF (Sevilla - International)
19.8 years old | 7'0" | 230 lbs2014-15 Eurocup, ACB (50 GP)
11.0 PPG 4.6 RPG 0.5 APG 20.6 PER
4. D'Angelo Russell
PG/SG (Ohio State - Freshman)
19.3 years old | 6'5" | 193 lbs2014-15 NCAA (35 GP)
19.3 PPG 5.7 RPG 5.0 APG 26.9 PER5. Willie Cauley-Stein
C (Kentucky - Junior)
21.8 years old | 7'1" | 242 lbs2014-15 NCAA (39 GP)
8.9 PPG 6.4 RPG 1.0 APG 24.3 PER
CrushAlot wrote:Celtic blog has a poll up asking fans what they would do if the Knicks traded them the 4th pick. They want Stein. 1800 votes so far. http://www.celticsblog.com/2015/6/19/881...
It's crazy reading other team's fans coming up with possible trades with the Knicks. Some of the ideas weren't bad. They don't seem to have a problem "overpaying" for #4. One guy had both #16 n #33 2015 picks, 2016 1st and a player. In all honesty Boston has more picks than they know what to do with. I'm pretty sure Ainge will be calling to test the waters. He can really throw a lot of picks at Phil.
nixluva wrote:CrushAlot wrote:Celtic blog has a poll up asking fans what they would do if the Knicks traded them the 4th pick. They want Stein. 1800 votes so far. http://www.celticsblog.com/2015/6/19/881...It's crazy reading other team's fans coming up with possible trades with the Knicks. Some of the ideas weren't bad. They don't seem to have a problem "overpaying" for #4. One guy had both #16 n #33 2015 picks, 2016 1st and a player. In all honesty Boston has more picks than they know what to do with. I'm pretty sure Ainge will be calling to test the waters. He can really throw a lot of picks at Phil.
I hope Phil is smart enough and stand pat with that 4th pick; except if a team is crazy enough to offer a sixth pick and a couple of late first