Knicks · The fear of the WCS Monroe scenario (page 1)

I dont really consider the Knicks a good shooting team--we have speculative unproven streaky guards. If we pay Monore max I dont think we have the money for another high quality SG. Worse if we do take Stein which I have had nightmares about--not only will you have two 7 footers who cant shoot past 6 feet who are poor FTs shooters you then set it up fo rclosed penetrating lanes and defenses set to overplay our guards. The NBA is all about space now--you can play with 2 7 footers if one guy is a mobile 4. If you are playing with 2 seven footers in this league who cant shoot---good luck charlie.

i honestly don't think stein is being seriously considered ... could be a smokescreen to try and wrangle something out of the magic for a pick swap which isn't the worst thing in the world... phil likes his centers to shoot and pass....

monroe is looking likely and i'm actually starting to warm up to him...

I think Winslow will be the man if Russell is not available

I'm not worried about how Monroe and Stein would work in this offense. The way this offense flows players are always on the move and they create shots at the basket with movement as opposed to always having to dribble drive. Bigs on this team learn how to move and present themselves for passes and that makes everything flow in a very natural way once the players get used to it all. The guards are able to drive in this offense.

Classic Triangle

It won't matter if it's Cole or WCS in the Triangle making that pass. The guards will still have options. It's about spacing and making the defense move where you want. Where Bargs is at could just as easily turn into a Triangle on that side and he could post up. It's a super flexible offense for 2 bigs. It's designed that way so you won't have a clogged offense if you run it right and keep the spacing.

I agree with the reasoning Phil has for wanting a low post big and a defensive big who can slow down perimeter players on PnR. I think the best option now is WCS, tho I wanted Towns with #1 if we had got it.

“Bigs are a priority for us in the draft in that I believe that defense has to be a priority for us in having an intimidating force in the lane,” Jackson said.

“Gotta have a defender,” Jackson said. “… That’s a good starting point — a guy like Tyson Chandler (whom the Knicks traded over the summer) is the defensive backup that we have to have. In this day and age in our game, there are so many screen and rolls, so many 3-point shooters, so many things that a player of size has to (do). Not only cover the paint and protect the basket but he has to be able to step out defensively and play a guard. And do some defensive work on the extreme part of the floor so it’s very important that that player have defensive capabilities.”

As I just laid out above the offense can work even with a big who doesn't really scare teams with their offense.

nixluva wrote:I agree with the reasoning Phil has for wanting a low post big and a defensive big who can slow down perimeter players on PnR. I think the best option now is WCS, tho I wanted Towns with #1 if we had got it.

“Bigs are a priority for us in the draft in that I believe that defense has to be a priority for us in having an intimidating force in the lane,” Jackson said.

“Gotta have a defender,” Jackson said. “… That’s a good starting point — a guy like Tyson Chandler (whom the Knicks traded over the summer) is the defensive backup that we have to have. In this day and age in our game, there are so many screen and rolls, so many 3-point shooters, so many things that a player of size has to (do). Not only cover the paint and protect the basket but he has to be able to step out defensively and play a guard. And do some defensive work on the extreme part of the floor so it’s very important that that player have defensive capabilities.”

As I just laid out above the offense can work even with a big who doesn't really scare teams with their offense.

I think Stein is the most over rated of the top 13. Ive seen him so many times. He's not engaged 1/2 the time--I cant say go back in time and watch the games--but if Phil watched the tournament and still had that assessment Id be very surprised(or maybe not) To me someone who loses focus is someone who you wont win with. Hey BRIGGS why did Kentucky win 39 in a row? Because they had 6 7 footers and no one else did. Go down to the YMCA and play 5 5-11 guy vs 5 6-4 guys and see the results. Has Willie Stein had big games--YES absolutely he has shown high potential but a great NBA player has to show that same focus 100 times a year--Willie didnt do that for 40. In the biggest game of his career he goes 1-4 for 2 points and 5 rebounds. Go back and look at his career--he was NEVER the best big man on any of his own teams in college. He does NOT rebound at a high rate. He's not a good shooter and he will NEVER be--it's a broken part of his game like Chandler. Do you think Dennis Rodman would ever have 5 rebounds in 33 minutes in a championship game? At 7-1 240 the guy should DOMINATE and its not even close.

nixluva wrote:I agree with the reasoning Phil has for wanting a low post big and a defensive big who can slow down perimeter players on PnR. I think the best option now is WCS, tho I wanted Towns with #1 if we had got it.

“Bigs are a priority for us in the draft in that I believe that defense has to be a priority for us in having an intimidating force in the lane,” Jackson said.

“Gotta have a defender,” Jackson said. “… That’s a good starting point — a guy like Tyson Chandler (whom the Knicks traded over the summer) is the defensive backup that we have to have. In this day and age in our game, there are so many screen and rolls, so many 3-point shooters, so many things that a player of size has to (do). Not only cover the paint and protect the basket but he has to be able to step out defensively and play a guard. And do some defensive work on the extreme part of the floor so it’s very important that that player have defensive capabilities.”

As I just laid out above the offense can work even with a big who doesn't really scare teams with their offense.

And if the case take Porzingis. At 7-2 he is MUCH longer than Stein YET has all of the offensive skills that WCS could only dream of. Porzingis at 19 is FAR ahead of WCS. If Willie Stein had to play the men that Kristaps plays he'd look lost. If he cant dominate guys who are 6-5 good luck against guys your own size. There has to be a semblance of two way skills in a draft @4--you need to have shown forms of domination on both ends.

Just looking at the tournament here is the comparison of Kaminsky who is supposedly a big white stiff.

6 games 37 minutes Frank Kaminsky 22 points 9 rebounds 2.5 assists efg 63% 1 block Free throw attempts 42 and EVERY team they played in the final 4 had great big men NC AZ Duke Kentucky.

5 games Willie Stein 30 minutes 6.1 rebounds 6.2 rebounds 1.5 assists 2.5 blocks Free throw attempts 15 efg .47

Id listen to Tom, Izzo here on Kaminsky he knows more about basketball than me or you--and likely more than anyone on the Knicks staff. I understand Phil was a great NBA coach but Izzo wins with secondary talent EVERY year--"Kaminsky is the best player in the big ten since Glenn Robinson"

BRIGGS wrote:

nixluva wrote:I agree with the reasoning Phil has for wanting a low post big and a defensive big who can slow down perimeter players on PnR. I think the best option now is WCS, tho I wanted Towns with #1 if we had got it.

“Bigs are a priority for us in the draft in that I believe that defense has to be a priority for us in having an intimidating force in the lane,” Jackson said.

“Gotta have a defender,” Jackson said. “… That’s a good starting point — a guy like Tyson Chandler (whom the Knicks traded over the summer) is the defensive backup that we have to have. In this day and age in our game, there are so many screen and rolls, so many 3-point shooters, so many things that a player of size has to (do). Not only cover the paint and protect the basket but he has to be able to step out defensively and play a guard. And do some defensive work on the extreme part of the floor so it’s very important that that player have defensive capabilities.”

As I just laid out above the offense can work even with a big who doesn't really scare teams with their offense.

And if the case take Porzingis. At 7-2 he is MUCH longer than Stein YET has all of the offensive skills that WCS could only dream of. Porzingis at 19 is FAR ahead of WCS. If Willie Stein had to play the men that Kristaps plays he'd look lost. If he cant dominate guys who are 6-5 good luck against guys your own size.

No doubt about taking Porzingis in this situation.

The other factor is that Stein himself was criticized for his lack of strength when younger. He has gotten stronger, but even now he does not have a strong base, even though he has length. No reason to think that Porzingis won't get stronger over the next two years, at least to the level of strength Stein now possesses, and he already has an offensive game Stein can never have.

WCS had great defensive efficiency and he's got a ton of untapped talent. No need to try and denigrate his contributions to the success of Kentucky. He had great Plus Minus stats at UK.

No one is saying WCS is perfect but he has boatloads of talent and he's going to be put in a much better situation than he was in at UK. They had a HORRENDOUS offense and no spacing. Things will be completely different here in NY and he'll get the attention and instruction he needs to improve and learn. Don't assume that these kids get the best individual training in college cuz that's not always true.

WCS still has tons of upside as a player. His shot isn't broken and he shows that he has the agility and coordination to be a decent offensive player. He's a late bloomer offensively but I believe he has a chance to develop at the next level. He wouldn't be the first player to do that. The underlying talent is there IMO.

nixluva wrote:WCS had great defensive efficiency and he's got a ton of untapped talent. No need to try and denigrate his contributions to the success of Kentucky. He had great Plus Minus stats at UK.

No one is saying WCS is perfect but he has boatloads of talent and he's going to be put in a much better situation than he was in at UK. They had a HORRENDOUS offense and no spacing. Things will be completely different here in NY and he'll get the attention and instruction he needs to improve and learn. Don't assume that these kids get the best individual training in college cuz that's not always true.

WCS still has tons of upside as a player. His shot isn't broken and he shows that he has the agility and coordination to be a decent offensive player. He's a late bloomer offensively but I believe he has a chance to develop at the next level. He wouldn't be the first player to do that. The underlying talent is there IMO.

nixluva--what is the untapped talent? A broken jumpshot like Tyson Chandler a sub par rebounder for a 7-1 guy and a guy who loses focus? Im just stating fact. Willie Stein around 14-21 is a good pick gives him leeway to be a back up--Willie Stein at 4 is a manslaughter.

FistOfOakley wrote:i honestly don't think stein is being seriously considered ... could be a smokescreen to try and wrangle something out of the magic for a pick swap which isn't the worst thing in the world... phil likes his centers to shoot and pass....

monroe is looking likely and i'm actually starting to warm up to him...

Interesting thought. Might be hard to sell, but if Orlando really wants Stein...

Stein would basically compensate for Vukovic's limited D, and they probably would not need much offense from him. I figure Vukoovic is happy to hit those midrange Js and let someone like Stein score on the pick and rolls.

Are there any rumors about this?

I think It's possible that WCS could show some improvement in his offense. Serge Ibaka has made improvement in his Jump Shot from his 1st few years.

Serge Ibaka
	      	                                                                FGM     FGM                                                                             
2009-10         FGM	FGA	FG%	3PM	3PA	3P%	eFG%	BLKA    %AST	%UAST 
Jump Shot	58	138	42.0	1	2	50.0	42.4	6	82.8	17.2
2010-11
Jump Shot	107	278	38.5	0	1	0.0	38.5	14	85.0	15.0
2011-12                                                          
Jump Shot	92	240	38.3	1	3	33.3	38.5	12	90.2	9.8
2012-13
Jump Shot	202	430	47.0	19	56	33.9	49.2	10	90.1	9.9
2013-14
Jump Shot	236	534	44.2	21	56	37.5	46.2	9	92.4	7.6
2014-15
Jump Shot	205	524	39.1	74	199	37.2	46.2	9	89.8	10.2

Offensively WCS has the same game as Tyson Chandler. He's a lurking threat to dunk at all times. It does have an effect on opposing defenses. WCS scores at 72.5% at the basket. His jump hook isn't bad. One small sign that WCS has some potential to improve offensively is how he's improved his FT shooting.

He struggled unbelievably from the free throw line his freshman year (37.2%), was terrible his sophomore year (48.2%), before finally becoming passable in his junior year (61.7%).

I know it's hard to put any faith in any of this, but I think there's something to work with in terms of his offense.

Bottom line is this,the Knicks aren't known to be talent developer. I don't know if one young man drafted by the Knicks who was allowed to stick around and become great. Knicks are always ready to spend big money on players drafted by other teams; which is not a bad idea. We just have to be better and pay two-way dudes instead of one trick ponies

My fear of the Kaminsky or Porzingis scenario is that we will continue to have the most porous frontcourt defense in the entire NBA.

crzymdups wrote:My fear of the Kaminsky or Porzingis scenario is that we will continue to have the most porous frontcourt defense in the entire NBA.

Yep- I can't take it anymore

I'll put it another way - Danny Ainge isn't trying to trade up to 4th to select Frank Kaminsky. He's trying to get Willie Cauley Stein.

WCS has a highly valued skillset and fills a huge demand position in the league.

Every single good team in the playoffs has a defensive anchor at center, even if they play this spread offense. Stein is a defensive anchor and he's going to have a long NBA career and will be highly sought after.

What if WCS has more than we have seen on offense?
Anyone been to kentucky's practices?
Or do we just slot the guy as the next Tyson Chandler and move on the the next stereotype?

Nalod wrote:What if WCS has more than we have seen on offense?
Anyone been to kentucky's practices?
Or do we just slot the guy as the next Tyson Chandler and move on the the next stereotype?

yeah ... you're right.

as fans, we should not be judging players.

Nalod wrote:What if WCS has more than we have seen on offense?
Anyone been to kentucky's practices?
Or do we just slot the guy as the next Tyson Chandler and move on the the next stereotype?

3 years and 150 games doesnt count bt practice does?

smackeddog wrote:

crzymdups wrote:My fear of the Kaminsky or Porzingis scenario is that we will continue to have the most porous frontcourt defense in the entire NBA.

Yep- I can't take it anymore

Come down, folks.

Both of them are stretch 4's at this juncture, and both will be fine off the ball defenders, IMO.

Don't recall Kaminsky getting embarrassed on D, and he will be a little quicker as he tones his body.

Porzingis is 7'1"... maybe be grows a pinch more, and he is not considered soft, even though he is still a baby in some ways.

Stein is a good defender, but he can be moved in the post. How much weight can he put on before he is slowed down?

He is best as an off the ball defender and he is good on the pick and rolls, but the other two are not chopped liver.

Stein has no offensive game in the post, has not developed a dependable jumper or a consistent move in the post after 3 years of practicing with 3 lottery pick big men, and many other athletic bigs he could have tried things against, and is not considered a particularly good passer.

In the biggest and final game of his career he was pretty much invisible... and you know who the big guy was on the other side.

He is a niche player on the right team, and the Knicks need an all around player who can grow. Both Porzingis and Kaminsky can be used in a pick and roll and the pick and pop...Stein can do the former, and not the latter, and, once again, he has no post up game that would allow you to keep him down low and work him from there.

Maybe there are a lot of things about his game that we don't know about- after all, the Knicks were at a lot of their practices- but maybe what you see from him is what you get, and if you think he is the guy for this team...

I don't get it.

The curse of the defensive talent coming into the draft. It's so hard to sell the idea that you're drafting a player solely for their defensive talent. People tend to think that defense can't be a talent but that's not true. Great defenders aren't just guys who play hard. There's reason why there are so few truly great defensive players. It takes defensive talent to allow a player to become an elite defender just like offensive talent.

WCS is not the most well developed offensive player but he does have an impact on offense. His mere presence is a problem for teams because he's so mobile, quick and athletic that he's a threat to dunk at all times. You have to keep a defender near him or in his way. The good thing about our offense is that it's all about ball and player movement and also spacing. It's not overly reliant on PnR or ISO. It's hard to defend a moving target.

WCS also opens up your transition game. He's as fast as a guard from end to end. He finishes at 72.5% at the rim. He's improved his FT shooting up to 61.7%. He already has some basic moves with a Jump Hook and Mid Range Jumper. WCS also has a very quick 1st step and can drive to the hole against slower Centers. In the NBA he'll have more space to actually do some things offensively. I think he'll score enough at the next level if he stays aggressive.