Knicks · Were going to trya nd put Stein and Monroe out there and win maybe 38 games? (page 3)
crzymdups wrote:codeunknown wrote:To me, a Stein and Monroe combination is just a horrible case of settling. You'll be at or below league average rebounding and offensively (in part due to spacing) and defensively, you just have to pray that the Stein force-field paralyzes the other team.Okay, if that's settling - name a non-settling aka better plan. Go.
We need versatile players cryz --verstaility. Not raw or slow.
Nalod wrote:38 games is more than double last year.
You really pouting about two players that have yet to aqiure?
Bingo
crzymdups wrote:codeunknown wrote:To me, a Stein and Monroe combination is just a horrible case of settling. You'll be at or below league average rebounding and offensively (in part due to spacing) and defensively, you just have to pray that the Stein force-field paralyzes the other team.Okay, if that's settling - name a non-settling aka better plan. Go.
Go where? You're acting surprised, as if this is the last remaining option - this is odd to me. There are glaring holes with the front court of Melo, Stein and Monroe that probably don't need elaboration. Are we disagreeing because of the evaluation of this particular lineup, or the ball-park quality team we should aim for at the outset of a rebuilding process?
The better plan is not to waste money on Monroe and select the best player at 4. In my estimation, its Mudiay, although reasonable people can disagree here. Ideally, we trade Carmelo in a package to the Lakers for pick #2. Then you pay for players who can reasonably be components of a higher achieving team (Deandre Jordan, Draymond Green etc.) And if you strike out, you wait until next year, rather than increasing the financial constraint with parts that are extraneous. Basketball talent isn't additive; I'd fold on Monroe and wait for a better hand.
codeunknown wrote:crzymdups wrote:codeunknown wrote:To me, a Stein and Monroe combination is just a horrible case of settling. You'll be at or below league average rebounding and offensively (in part due to spacing) and defensively, you just have to pray that the Stein force-field paralyzes the other team.Okay, if that's settling - name a non-settling aka better plan. Go.
Go where? You're acting surprised, as if this is the last remaining option - this is odd to me. There are glaring holes with the front court of Melo, Stein and Monroe that probably don't need elaboration. Are we disagreeing because of the evaluation of this particular lineup, or the ball-park quality team we should aim for at the outset of a rebuilding process?
The better plan is not to waste money on Monroe and select the best player at 4. In my estimation, its Mudiay, although reasonable people can disagree here. Ideally, we trade Carmelo in a package to the Lakers for pick #2. Then you pay for players who can reasonably be components of a higher achieving team (Deandre Jordan, Draymond Green etc.) And if you strike out, you wait until next year, rather than increasing the financial constraint with parts that are extraneous. Basketball talent isn't additive; I'd fold on Monroe and wait for a better hand.
code--I wont btch one second if we get Mudiay. Ill accept it but I FEAR James dolan will NOT let him develop and will be traded by the following year. I want Kaminsky but Mudiay is a reasonable settle if we get Stein and Monroe its just a nightmare. I still think Mudiay is another version of Ty Evans but hopefully he can tweak some things. Still think the best guy is Kaminsky but I do not think Im going to be seeing that, Id MUCH rather trade down pick up additional picks--thats what i want. Kaminsky and 2 additional picks.
Together it would be just like Detroit's Front court of Monroe and Drummond that underachieved horribly because the two centers operated in the same space. Sort of how Melo and Amare had issues all these season because they preferred to operate in the same spot and one always had to defer to the other one.
BRIGGS wrote:codeunknown wrote:crzymdups wrote:codeunknown wrote:To me, a Stein and Monroe combination is just a horrible case of settling. You'll be at or below league average rebounding and offensively (in part due to spacing) and defensively, you just have to pray that the Stein force-field paralyzes the other team.Okay, if that's settling - name a non-settling aka better plan. Go.
Go where? You're acting surprised, as if this is the last remaining option - this is odd to me. There are glaring holes with the front court of Melo, Stein and Monroe that probably don't need elaboration. Are we disagreeing because of the evaluation of this particular lineup, or the ball-park quality team we should aim for at the outset of a rebuilding process?
The better plan is not to waste money on Monroe and select the best player at 4. In my estimation, its Mudiay, although reasonable people can disagree here. Ideally, we trade Carmelo in a package to the Lakers for pick #2. Then you pay for players who can reasonably be components of a higher achieving team (Deandre Jordan, Draymond Green etc.) And if you strike out, you wait until next year, rather than increasing the financial constraint with parts that are extraneous. Basketball talent isn't additive; I'd fold on Monroe and wait for a better hand.
code--I wont btch one second if we get Mudiay. Ill accept it but I FEAR James dolan will NOT let him develop and will be traded by the following year. I want Kaminsky but Mudiay is a reasonable settle if we get Stein and Monroe its just a nightmare. I still think Mudiay is another version of Ty Evans but hopefully he can tweak some things. Still think the best guy is Kaminsky but I do not think Im going to be seeing that, Id MUCH rather trade down pick up additional picks--thats what i want. Kaminsky and 2 additional picks.
Yeah, agree that the additional picks are useful, specifically for Fuzaro, as you've mentioned before. Personally, I like Mudiay better than Evans and honestly, I wasn't a fan of Evans either before or after his draft. To me, there are notable differences in their dribble-drive game.
Kaminsky, I like but just a couple of spots lower than 4. He needs to get stronger to leverage his shooting at either 4/5.
codeunknown wrote:Go where? You're acting surprised, as if this is the last remaining option - this is odd to me. There are glaring holes with the front court of Melo, Stein and Monroe that probably don't need elaboration. Are we disagreeing because of the evaluation of this particular lineup, or the ball-park quality team we should aim for at the outset of a rebuilding process?The better plan is not to waste money on Monroe and select the best player at 4. In my estimation, its Mudiay, although reasonable people can disagree here. Ideally, we trade Carmelo in a package to the Lakers for pick #2. Then you pay for players who can reasonably be components of a higher achieving team (Deandre Jordan, Draymond Green etc.) And if you strike out, you wait until next year, rather than increasing the financial constraint with parts that are extraneous. Basketball talent isn't additive; I'd fold on Monroe and wait for a better hand.
monroe might be viewed as a settling move but i think it's actually the best most attainable option out there... i don't think deandre is actually going anywhere and neither is green... next year everyone will have cap room and we will be overpaying even more...
monroe is 25... which means we have basically his whole prime with a possibility of some growth left in his game... his PER was 18-20 so he can contribute... plus a 25-29 yo able bodied PF is always a tradeable commodity... this is not an amare signing... he should have some value throughout the life of the contract especially in the big revenue era...
the defense is a true concern but teams have contended with less than great defensive PF's... blake griffin is the most recent example...
there's really nobody else out there that would move the needle... next offseason is going to be even more of a clusterf*ck and i would rather have the main pieces in place before then...
the downside is that we don't contend... but if we don't sign him we have no chance at it... i'd give it a shot and see how it goes... i happen to believe the triangle is built for a guy like him so it could actually work out well...
FistOfOakley wrote:and i'm not in the stein camp at all... monroe or no monroe...
We aren't trying to make the finals next year, we don't have to sign Monroe..There isn't a gun to our head..it's ok to have cap space..
FistOfOakley wrote:codeunknown wrote:Go where? You're acting surprised, as if this is the last remaining option - this is odd to me. There are glaring holes with the front court of Melo, Stein and Monroe that probably don't need elaboration. Are we disagreeing because of the evaluation of this particular lineup, or the ball-park quality team we should aim for at the outset of a rebuilding process?The better plan is not to waste money on Monroe and select the best player at 4. In my estimation, its Mudiay, although reasonable people can disagree here. Ideally, we trade Carmelo in a package to the Lakers for pick #2. Then you pay for players who can reasonably be components of a higher achieving team (Deandre Jordan, Draymond Green etc.) And if you strike out, you wait until next year, rather than increasing the financial constraint with parts that are extraneous. Basketball talent isn't additive; I'd fold on Monroe and wait for a better hand.
monroe might be viewed as a settling move but i think it's actually the best most attainable option out there... i don't think deandre is actually going anywhere and neither is green... next year everyone will have cap room and we will be overpaying even more...
monroe is 25... which means we have basically his whole prime with a possibility of some growth left in his game... his PER was 18-20 so he can contribute... plus a 25-29 yo able bodied PF is always a tradeable commodity... this is not an amare signing... he should have some value throughout the life of the contract especially in the big revenue era...
the defense is a true concern but teams have contended with less than great defensive PF's... blake griffin is the most recent example...
there's really nobody else out there that would move the needle... next offseason is going to be even more of a clusterf*ck and i would rather have the main pieces in place before then...
the downside is that we don't contend... but if we don't sign him we have no chance at it... i'd give it a shot and see how it goes... i happen to believe the triangle is built for a guy like him so it could actually work out well...
Do you play Monroe at 4 or 5 and who would you pair in the front court with him? What do you prioritize with his frontcourt partner - defense or shooting? This tradeoff with Monroe is exacerbated when he is not used as the focal point (and Carmelo is penciled in for that here).
When the cap grows in the next few years, the transitional contracts will either be very advantageous or big mistakes. Teams recognize this opportunity in parallel, so its very possible that a few "super" teams will form, leaving teams who made hasty ill-advised signings even more in the lurch. And as always, the maximum per player is percentage adjusted, so a larger cap isn't a free pass to spend - just a new endpoint, where market perception may initially lag. Either way, the free agency winners in the next 1-2 years have a good chance of dominating.
BRIGGS wrote:Best of luck watching the slow Monroe and the offensively challenged Stein get spread out and the Knicks can exploited like the Pistons did this year playing two bigs in.You cant defend teams that have 5 guys who can shoot pass and drive. Were trying to go back to 1994 and it wont work.
Says the guy who wants Kaminsky - lol.
You are going to completely ignore what guys like Mozzy and Thompson have done this post season. Neither spreads the floor, neither really puts the ball on the floor but they are both major league pain in the asses. No reason to believe Monroe & WCS pairing couldn't be an outstanding pairing.
BRIGGS wrote:Knicks1969 wrote:Dude!!!!!The NBA s changing and we BETTER notice and change with it. Its the Spurs model that works. Monroe would nOT play for the Spurs--maybe Stein but not Monroe.
Monroe would eat Tiago Stiffer for lunch what are you babbling about. Splitter, Baynes, Ayers - no Monroe can't play with those studs.
BRIGGS wrote:jbeachboy wrote:so you recommend drafting stein?There are others avenues Id rather travel. One thing is for sure NOT Stein AND Monroe--wont work. Didnt work with Drummond who is WAY better than Stein.
Drummond is one of the dumbest looking players I've ever seen. People see him block a few shots and grab some rebounds and want him but this dude is clueless.
There is no reason to think that WCS can't be better than Drummond offensively very quickly. He's already ahead of Drummond from a skill aspect. Drum minds lucky he doesn't break the board on free throws.
LivingLegend wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Knicks1969 wrote:Dude!!!!!The NBA s changing and we BETTER notice and change with it. Its the Spurs model that works. Monroe would nOT play for the Spurs--maybe Stein but not Monroe.
Monroe would eat Tiago Stiffer for lunch what are you babbling about. Splitter, Baynes, Ayers - no Monroe can't play with those studs.
Monroe's teams haven't won anything..Has been around 30 wins for 5 years..He looks like a guy who goes thru the motions..What's the appeal I'm missing??
That said it's possible the Knicks could leverage kings interest in Willie, pick up some assets and still get a Mudiay, Porzingis or Winslow.
holfresh wrote:FistOfOakley wrote:and i'm not in the stein camp at all... monroe or no monroe...We aren't trying to make the finals next year, we don't have to sign Monroe..There isn't a gun to our head..it's ok to have cap space..
Not sure that works given the age factor working against Anthony and Jackson. Might feel slightly different if we had our 1 next year, but that still does not address Anthony's concerns about winning sooner rather than later.
Phil chose to hitch his horses to Anthony instead of doing a complete tear down. His choice, and he has to live with it, and his decisions have to conform to this reality.
WaltLongmire wrote:holfresh wrote:FistOfOakley wrote:and i'm not in the stein camp at all... monroe or no monroe...We aren't trying to make the finals next year, we don't have to sign Monroe..There isn't a gun to our head..it's ok to have cap space..
Not sure that works given the age factor working against Anthony and Jackson. Might feel slightly different if we had our 1 next year, but that still does not address Anthony's concerns about winning sooner rather than later.
Phil chose to hitch his horses to Anthony instead of doing a complete tear down. His choice, and he has to live with it, and his decisions have to conform to this reality.
Melo isn't the issue..He has plenty of cap space and Monroe is the answer??,,So whose salary is Melo occupying..If the best you can do is Monroe when you have space, you want me to believe that you can do better than Melo?
LivingLegend wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Best of luck watching the slow Monroe and the offensively challenged Stein get spread out and the Knicks can exploited like the Pistons did this year playing two bigs in.You cant defend teams that have 5 guys who can shoot pass and drive. Were trying to go back to 1994 and it wont work.
Says the guy who wants Kaminsky - lol.
You are going to completely ignore what guys like Mozzy and Thompson have done this post season. Neither spreads the floor, neither really puts the ball on the floor but they are both major league pain in the asses. No reason to believe Monroe & WCS pairing couldn't be an outstanding pairing.
You seem to be forgetting one simple thing, Moz and Thompson have Lebron with them on the frontline, Monroe and Stein would have Anthony. The difference? A below average assist game for James is a great assist game for Anthony.
Anthony does a lot of things... he cannot run an offense like James can, and he can't play D as well.
No hate, just fact.
WaltLongmire wrote:LivingLegend wrote:BRIGGS wrote:Best of luck watching the slow Monroe and the offensively challenged Stein get spread out and the Knicks can exploited like the Pistons did this year playing two bigs in.You cant defend teams that have 5 guys who can shoot pass and drive. Were trying to go back to 1994 and it wont work.
Says the guy who wants Kaminsky - lol.
You are going to completely ignore what guys like Mozzy and Thompson have done this post season. Neither spreads the floor, neither really puts the ball on the floor but they are both major league pain in the asses. No reason to believe Monroe & WCS pairing couldn't be an outstanding pairing.
You seem to be forgetting one simple thing, Moz and Thompson have Lebron with them on the frontline, Monroe and Stein would have Anthony. The difference? A below average assist game for James is a great assist game for Anthony.Anthony does a lot of things... he cannot run an offense like James can, and he can't play D as well.
No hate, just fact.
Melo doesn't have to be Lebron for the Knicks to function at a high level. The Knicks won't stop building a team after drafting WCS or signing Monroe. That's just 2 players and Phil will have more cap space to bring in more talent at different positions.
LivingLegend wrote:BRIGGS wrote:jbeachboy wrote:so you recommend drafting stein?There are others avenues Id rather travel. One thing is for sure NOT Stein AND Monroe--wont work. Didnt work with Drummond who is WAY better than Stein.
Drummond is one of the dumbest looking players I've ever seen. People see him block a few shots and grab some rebounds and want him but this dude is clueless.
There is no reason to think that WCS can't be better than Drummond offensively very quickly. He's already ahead of Drummond from a skill aspect. Drum minds lucky he doesn't break the board on free throws.
Andre Drummond is younger right now than WCS and while Stein was putting up 1-4 vs Wisconsin Andre Drummond put up 32-14-3 against the Miami HEat(In the NBA) case closed.