Knicks · Monta Ellis opts out - Mavs not expected to re-sign - is he Triangular? (page 2)

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crz--Norman Powell--can be had for minimal investment and plays D like Tony Allen. Has a similar offensive game as Monta but is developing a quality mid range game. He's also 6-4 215 with a 7 foot WS so he should be able to guard 1-3 . Doesnt need the ball in his hands as much as Monta.

Was a 61% 2FG shooter his sophomore year which is unheard of for a guard. The additional space in the NBA could make him a star.

Powell the more I watch him--the more I feel he could be the NUMBER 1 under rated player in this draft.

Briggs you gotta stop overrating some of these guys. If he had a similar offensive game to Ellis, and played D like Tony Allen, he would be a top 3 pick in the draft. Allen is a premiere defender, one of the better in the past decade. If he is Ellis offense and Allen defense, then we take him at #4 and don't think twice, but obviously that's not happening.

Monta Ellis pick #40 2005
Tony Allen pick #25 2004

No Im not Im saying hes a late rd 1 early 2 pick These guys were picked on an average basis of 33. If scouts thought they were so good--why didnt they go pick #3? The science is wrong thats why you can find players like these guys late. Powell is just a product of playing on the west coast had a bad role under his former coach and UCLA was in flux this year. BUT if you really take a hard look at his skills--watched a couple of games--you know what kind of defender he could be and his offensive game is taylor made for the nBA.

yellowboy90 wrote:Monta Ellis to me is like a shorter JR who starts. One shoots more 3s and one attacks the basket more but have similar impacts. I'd pass.

I was kind of thinking that too. Monta is definitely better than JR and won't be off for two months at a time like JR. But that being said, you need efficient players around Melo. Period.

yellowboy90 wrote:Monta Ellis to me is like a shorter JR who starts. One shoots more 3s and one attacks the basket more but have similar impacts. I'd pass.

to me, he has Stevie Francis written all over him.

How did we do with the last 30 year old guard we got from Dallas?

Pass!

I hear good and bad about him, and have not really followed him in any way, but I thought he was doing better over there.

Is this a coaching issue for him? Has he had any problems in Dallas?

Fisher would be your best resource on his value to the Knicks, because he's played against him a lot in recent years. Would probably trust his instinct on him more than anyones, to be honest.

Solace wrote:

yellowboy90 wrote:Monta Ellis to me is like a shorter JR who starts. One shoots more 3s and one attacks the basket more but have similar impacts. I'd pass.

I was kind of thinking that too. Monta is definitely better than JR and won't be off for two months at a time like JR. But that being said, you need efficient players around Melo. Period.

I think JR is actually better, in term of efficiency bad JR is similar to good Ellis. Ellis should be an off the bench but but he can't shoot it from deep.

I put Ellis in the Jarryd Bayless category and he makes 3m.

BRIGGS wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crz--Norman Powell--can be had for minimal investment and plays D like Tony Allen. Has a similar offensive game as Monta but is developing a quality mid range game. He's also 6-4 215 with a 7 foot WS so he should be able to guard 1-3 . Doesnt need the ball in his hands as much as Monta.

Was a 61% 2FG shooter his sophomore year which is unheard of for a guard. The additional space in the NBA could make him a star.

Powell the more I watch him--the more I feel he could be the NUMBER 1 under rated player in this draft.

Briggs you gotta stop overrating some of these guys. If he had a similar offensive game to Ellis, and played D like Tony Allen, he would be a top 3 pick in the draft. Allen is a premiere defender, one of the better in the past decade. If he is Ellis offense and Allen defense, then we take him at #4 and don't think twice, but obviously that's not happening.

Monta Ellis pick #40 2005
Tony Allen pick #25 2004

No Im not Im saying hes a late rd 1 early 2 pick These guys were picked on an average basis of 33. If scouts thought they were so good--why didnt they go pick #3? The science is wrong thats why you can find players like these guys late. Powell is just a product of playing on the west coast had a bad role under his former coach and UCLA was in flux this year. BUT if you really take a hard look at his skills--watched a couple of games--you know what kind of defender he could be and his offensive game is taylor made for the nBA.

Ellis was an unknown, undersized high school kid and Allen was an undersized SG with no offensive ability. That is much different than what you are projecting. You are projecting a star, 2-way player.

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crz--Norman Powell--can be had for minimal investment and plays D like Tony Allen. Has a similar offensive game as Monta but is developing a quality mid range game. He's also 6-4 215 with a 7 foot WS so he should be able to guard 1-3 . Doesnt need the ball in his hands as much as Monta.

Was a 61% 2FG shooter his sophomore year which is unheard of for a guard. The additional space in the NBA could make him a star.

Powell the more I watch him--the more I feel he could be the NUMBER 1 under rated player in this draft.

Briggs you gotta stop overrating some of these guys. If he had a similar offensive game to Ellis, and played D like Tony Allen, he would be a top 3 pick in the draft. Allen is a premiere defender, one of the better in the past decade. If he is Ellis offense and Allen defense, then we take him at #4 and don't think twice, but obviously that's not happening.

Monta Ellis pick #40 2005
Tony Allen pick #25 2004

No Im not Im saying hes a late rd 1 early 2 pick These guys were picked on an average basis of 33. If scouts thought they were so good--why didnt they go pick #3? The science is wrong thats why you can find players like these guys late. Powell is just a product of playing on the west coast had a bad role under his former coach and UCLA was in flux this year. BUT if you really take a hard look at his skills--watched a couple of games--you know what kind of defender he could be and his offensive game is taylor made for the nBA.

Ellis was an unknown, undersized high school kid and Allen was an undersized SG with no offensive ability. That is much different than what you are projecting. You are projecting a star, 2-way player.

It's nearly impossible to predict how a second round player will turnout. You do the research to reduce your chances of being a bust. But nobody would've predicted Ibaka to be a 3pt threat. Allen was a defender, so you would assume he would be a defender in the NBA, with limited offense....And thats exactly what he is. But his bust potential was low because at worst, he's a lock down defender.

Thats why you have Stein fans.....Because his bust potential is low due to his strong defensive IQ. Briggs, I'm sure he will pick one of the guys that slipped through the cracks. Thats usually the case when you highlight almost half the players in the draft. Every year there are scouts that do this for a living, who will overlook someone. You never know how a person matures physically and mentally. How his IQ on offense and defense increases or decreases. How he handles his new fame and money. All you can do in the later rounds is pick a player with a low bust potential.

Phil said it best, he wants players that understand their own skill set and are confortable playing that role. Stein (just an example) understands his role as a defender and he's comfortable with that role. Verses there are guys that come into the league, like Zinger.....They get caught up into what everybody else say he should be, and he forgets what made him worth a high pick. Thats the gamble of giving a 19 yr old millions of dollars.....vs.....Stein and Kaminsky who are part of the mature group, who should have more control over their own environment and not be conformed to the fame and money.

blkexec wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crz--Norman Powell--can be had for minimal investment and plays D like Tony Allen. Has a similar offensive game as Monta but is developing a quality mid range game. He's also 6-4 215 with a 7 foot WS so he should be able to guard 1-3 . Doesnt need the ball in his hands as much as Monta.

Was a 61% 2FG shooter his sophomore year which is unheard of for a guard. The additional space in the NBA could make him a star.

Powell the more I watch him--the more I feel he could be the NUMBER 1 under rated player in this draft.

Briggs you gotta stop overrating some of these guys. If he had a similar offensive game to Ellis, and played D like Tony Allen, he would be a top 3 pick in the draft. Allen is a premiere defender, one of the better in the past decade. If he is Ellis offense and Allen defense, then we take him at #4 and don't think twice, but obviously that's not happening.

Monta Ellis pick #40 2005
Tony Allen pick #25 2004

No Im not Im saying hes a late rd 1 early 2 pick These guys were picked on an average basis of 33. If scouts thought they were so good--why didnt they go pick #3? The science is wrong thats why you can find players like these guys late. Powell is just a product of playing on the west coast had a bad role under his former coach and UCLA was in flux this year. BUT if you really take a hard look at his skills--watched a couple of games--you know what kind of defender he could be and his offensive game is taylor made for the nBA.

Ellis was an unknown, undersized high school kid and Allen was an undersized SG with no offensive ability. That is much different than what you are projecting. You are projecting a star, 2-way player.

It's nearly impossible to predict how a second round player will turnout. You do the research to reduce your chances of being a bust. But nobody would've predicted Ibaka to be a 3pt threat. Allen was a defender, so you would assume he would be a defender in the NBA, with limited offense....And thats exactly what he is. But his bust potential was low because at worst, he's a lock down defender.

Thats why you have Stein fans.....Because his bust potential is low due to his strong defensive IQ. Briggs, I'm sure he will pick one of the guys that slipped through the cracks. Thats usually the case when you highlight almost half the players in the draft. Every year there are scouts that do this for a living, who will overlook someone. You never know how a person matures physically and mentally. How his IQ on offense and defense increases or decreases. How he handles his new fame and money. All you can do in the later rounds is pick a player with a low bust potential.

Phil said it best, he wants players that understand their own skill set and are confortable playing that role. Stein (just an example) understands his role as a defender and he's comfortable with that role. Verses there are guys that come into the league, like Zinger.....They get caught up into what everybody else say he should be, and he forgets what made him worth a high pick. Thats the gamble of giving a 19 yr old millions of dollars.....vs.....Stein and Kaminsky who are part of the mature group, who should have more control over their own environment and not be conformed to the fame and money.

no way knicks take him.

dk7th wrote:there's a reason some players move around. in ellis's case he is trying to save face for being an underachiever, seeking out more money to cushion him from the reality that he is not a winner.

no way knicks take him.

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crz--Norman Powell--can be had for minimal investment and plays D like Tony Allen. Has a similar offensive game as Monta but is developing a quality mid range game. He's also 6-4 215 with a 7 foot WS so he should be able to guard 1-3 . Doesnt need the ball in his hands as much as Monta.

Was a 61% 2FG shooter his sophomore year which is unheard of for a guard. The additional space in the NBA could make him a star.

Powell the more I watch him--the more I feel he could be the NUMBER 1 under rated player in this draft.

And why i you posting about yet another player you like in this draft in a Monte Ellis thread???

Norman Powell is a similar styled player who will cost 2mm over 3 years and is 10 years younger actually plays great D and is a bigger kid. If you have a problem with what i say--there is an ignore feature. Id rather spend 2mm on Powell than 50mm on Ellis even without the experience. We need young assets if we want to get into a trade market some day--we need something other than 30 year old players with massive contracts. Monta Ellis is not a good idea where the team is. He needs to transition out of the SL to 6th man.

Powell has become so underrated that he's become overrated. Someone will pick him up in the second round.

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crz--Norman Powell--can be had for minimal investment and plays D like Tony Allen. Has a similar offensive game as Monta but is developing a quality mid range game. He's also 6-4 215 with a 7 foot WS so he should be able to guard 1-3 . Doesnt need the ball in his hands as much as Monta.

Was a 61% 2FG shooter his sophomore year which is unheard of for a guard. The additional space in the NBA could make him a star.

Powell the more I watch him--the more I feel he could be the NUMBER 1 under rated player in this draft.

And why i you posting about yet another player you like in this draft in a Monte Ellis thread???

LOL - with his 100th selection in the 1st round of the 2015 NBA Draft --- message board poster Briggs selects Norman Powell. This is Mr Briggs last pick of the night.

LivingLegend wrote:LOL - with his 100th selection in the 1st round of the 2015 NBA Draft --- message board poster Briggs selects Norman Powell. This is Mr Briggs last pick of the night.

LOL

fishmike wrote:

dk7th wrote:there's a reason some players move around. in ellis's case he is trying to save face for being an underachiever, seeking out more money to cushion him from the reality that he is not a winner.

no way knicks take him.

he was traded for, and the team that traded for him just had back to back 50 win seasons with Monta as the starting guard. I have no idea what anything you said means.

it was an honest attempt to shape him and they did their best, but it was not meant to be. when you cannot defend in the beackcourt in today's nba you are a liability. when you are not a genuine creator you are a liability.

what does winning 50 games mean in the regular season? how many teams have won titles winning 50 games in the regular season. what are the odds of a 50-win team winning a title?

fishmike wrote:

dacash wrote:monroe and ellis might be good i said this a while back

I mean look at some options. Say you essentially spend on those two guys. Team could look like this moving foward:
PG Monta
SG Galloway
SF Porzingis
PF Melo
C Monroe
Monta and Galloway are going to get a ton of steals and can put some pressure on opposing guards on both ends of the floor. Monroe gets all his point blank but with that group you can see some very good floorspacing options.

If Fisher can push them to defend that could be an interesting group moving forward.

Given Fisher's success getting Melo and others to defend I would think hat team would give up a 100 points each game.

meloshouldgo wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dacash wrote:monroe and ellis might be good i said this a while back

I mean look at some options. Say you essentially spend on those two guys. Team could look like this moving foward:
PG Monta
SG Galloway
SF Porzingis
PF Melo
C Monroe
Monta and Galloway are going to get a ton of steals and can put some pressure on opposing guards on both ends of the floor. Monroe gets all his point blank but with that group you can see some very good floorspacing options.

If Fisher can push them to defend that could be an interesting group moving forward.

Given Fisher's success getting Melo and others to defend I would think hat team would give up a 100 points each game.

it's a moot point since ellis is not a triangle player.

dk7th wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dacash wrote:monroe and ellis might be good i said this a while back

I mean look at some options. Say you essentially spend on those two guys. Team could look like this moving foward:
PG Monta
SG Galloway
SF Porzingis
PF Melo
C Monroe
Monta and Galloway are going to get a ton of steals and can put some pressure on opposing guards on both ends of the floor. Monroe gets all his point blank but with that group you can see some very good floorspacing options.

If Fisher can push them to defend that could be an interesting group moving forward.

Given Fisher's success getting Melo and others to defend I would think hat team would give up a 100 points each game.

it's a moot point since ellis is not a triangle player.

Good, but neither is our resident ball hog.

BRIGGS wrote:

newyorker4ever wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

crz--Norman Powell--can be had for minimal investment and plays D like Tony Allen. Has a similar offensive game as Monta but is developing a quality mid range game. He's also 6-4 215 with a 7 foot WS so he should be able to guard 1-3 . Doesnt need the ball in his hands as much as Monta.

Was a 61% 2FG shooter his sophomore year which is unheard of for a guard. The additional space in the NBA could make him a star.

Powell the more I watch him--the more I feel he could be the NUMBER 1 under rated player in this draft.

And why i you posting about yet another player you like in this draft in a Monte Ellis thread???

Norman Powell is a similar styled player who will cost 2mm over 3 years and is 10 years younger actually plays great D and is a bigger kid. If you have a problem with what i say--there is an ignore feature. Id rather spend 2mm on Powell than 50mm on Ellis even without the experience. We need young assets if we want to get into a trade market some day--we need something other than 30 year old players with massive contracts. Monta Ellis is not a good idea where the team is. He needs to transition out of the SL to 6th man.

Sold! Where in the 2nd do you think he will fall, and who has a pick for sale? Actually, 2 picks please, looking for a strong rebounder too!

PS Definitely needs to get a jumper. His handle and dishing needs work too

meloshouldgo wrote:

dk7th wrote:

meloshouldgo wrote:

fishmike wrote:

dacash wrote:monroe and ellis might be good i said this a while back

I mean look at some options. Say you essentially spend on those two guys. Team could look like this moving foward:
PG Monta
SG Galloway
SF Porzingis
PF Melo
C Monroe
Monta and Galloway are going to get a ton of steals and can put some pressure on opposing guards on both ends of the floor. Monroe gets all his point blank but with that group you can see some very good floorspacing options.

If Fisher can push them to defend that could be an interesting group moving forward.

Given Fisher's success getting Melo and others to defend I would think hat team would give up a 100 points each game.

it's a moot point since ellis is not a triangle player.

Good, but neither is our resident ball hog.

are we really going to go there ha ha ha