Knicks · Maurice NDour Will Have A Better Season Than Derrick Williams (page 2)

smackeddog wrote:Why do people have an aversion to adding "I think" when creating threads on their thoughts?

There's a lot of people on here that should learn how to add IMO or IMHO to their posts cause they talk in facts when they have no facts.

misterearl wrote:there, The Answer Man said it.

Interesting... I don't know whether I'd take that bet or not, I actually like D-Will and think he can turn things around and start playing up to his capabilities (Shved finally started well, the best ball of his career in fact, right? Some guys just come on late), but the bottom line for me is that Maurice Ndour is a player--an impact player in the NBA on both ends. As obvious as the sky is blue.. Wish we could've had both. We SHOULD'VE had both on board... No good reason in the world not to. Comes down to thriftiness and laziness--complete miscalculation on Phil's part. 100%. Absolutely no way around it.. We've seen this pattern now with at least 3 players (that we know about)--Greg Monroe, Alexey Shved and Mo Ndour. Up to me, ALL THREE would've been Knicks and all 3 would've been KEY rotation players. The first guy's a 25-yr-old 6'11" 250 lb. PF/C that would've averaged 20/10 for this team for years to come (don't care about what MONROE couldn't do--never once concerned about that. Every player has shortcomings--20/10 is WHAT HE COULD DO!! And he would've come for a reduced max anyway compared to other players which made him an automatic bargain, a huge important element to that mistake that just gets glossed over); the 2nd guy was a big/versatile guard that EXCELLED in this triangle when others couldn't (just look at what Shane Larkin had to say about the triangle among other skeptical players/analysts/fans) and was clearly the best player we had to close out the year. As for Ndour, dude was EVERYTHING you could've hoped for in a surprise SL player worth taking a chance on--a legit 2-way energy player, potentially better than Chris Copeland or any other SL invite we've had since I've been following the team. He was worth following up on, esp. when we finally got a glimpse of the money we're talking about--read Berman saying we lost this kid over what, 400k (Cuban gave him what, 600k guaranteed year 1 and we offered 200k)?? Wow...I mean that's chump change. The first words outta my mouth when I found out we lost Ndour were 'how much did Cubes give him'? If it was several million, maybe I could see why they passed but we're talking a few hundred thousand bucks here...All I needed to know... Acy, Early, Galloway, Amundson and Lance Thomas--all made/make more money than that--Ndour has a good chance to be better than any of those guys. That's the bet I'll take...And the Garden would've loved this kid too. ABSOULTELY LOVED HIM!!! For me, the next best thing to building an honest to goodness championship roster and playing meaningful games is watching promising young players develop along the way. We had a good one here imho and pissed it away...

Just when I was starting to get over this gaffe, Knickerblogger.net puts out a great article yesterday on how losing Ndour was a mistake--it's right on the money word for word: http://knickerblogger.net/why-the-new-yo.... And now Berman's providing good insight into the mistake too: http://nypost.com/2015/07/28/why-knicks-.... What are ya gonna do? Still SMH man...

BRIGGS wrote:

smackeddog wrote:Why do people have an aversion to adding "I think" when creating threads on their thoughts?

Isnt "I think" implied when you make a post? Its just someone opinion right?

What's implied is a degree of certitude that seems to preclude argumentation...

...but since arguing is what folks do around here, we readily dismiss such confidence by throwing back our own strongly felt, but sometimes weakly supported, "opinions."

Just part of the game.

My opinion is the only thing that really matters, anyway...right?

Knicks1969 wrote:

NYKBocker wrote:Derrick Williams was a great talent in college and would have had a better early years if he was drafted to a better franchise. In his 4 years, he was coached by Rick Adelman for 2.5 years, Mike Malone for 1.75 years, Ty Corbin for a few months then George Karl the last few months. Adelman never struck me as somebody that developed yoots. He liked his vets. Mike Malone was a disaster. Same with Corbin. Karl was just too late last year.

Jury, stating the obvious, is still out for Old Man Fisher. Hopefully, he can coach this young man to reach his potential.

I am not sure that Fisher will be that good of a coach; specifically, when it comes to developing young players. Phil will definitely have to play a much bigger role for our young players to grasp the Triangle. If Carmelo was a player like Jordan or Lebron or Wade, I would have a lot more confidence in Fisher.

If Carmelo was more like Jordan, Lebron or Wade? If so, would he have been traded in the first place?

So if Carmelo was a alpha championship player, what coach WOULD NOT BE BETTER?
Isn't it kind of a given that great players can make good coaches GREAT? Or average coach GOOD?

Finestrg wrote:

misterearl wrote:there, The Answer Man said it.

Interesting... I don't know whether I'd take that bet or not, I actually like D-Will and think he can turn things around and start playing up to his capabilities (Shved finally started well, the best ball of his career in fact, right? Some guys just come on late), but the bottom line for me is that Maurice Ndour is a player--an impact player in the NBA on both ends. As obvious as the sky is blue.. Wish we could've had both. We SHOULD'VE had both on board... No good reason in the world not to. Comes down to thriftiness and laziness--complete miscalculation on Phil's part. 100%. Absolutely no way around it.. We've seen this pattern now with at least 3 players (that we know about)--Greg Monroe, Alexey Shved and Mo Ndour. Up to me, ALL THREE would've been Knicks and all 3 would've been KEY rotation players. The first guy's a 25-yr-old 6'11" 250 lb. PF/C that would've averaged 20/10 for this team for years to come (don't care about what MONROE couldn't do--never once concerned about that. Every player has shortcomings--20/10 is WHAT HE COULD DO!! And he would've come for a reduced max anyway compared to other players which made him an automatic bargain, a huge important element to that mistake that just gets glossed over); the 2nd guy was a big/versatile guard that EXCELLED in this triangle when others couldn't (just look at what Shane Larkin had to say about the triangle among other skeptical players/analysts/fans) and was clearly the best player we had to close out the year. As for Ndour, dude was EVERYTHING you could've hoped for in a surprise SL player worth taking a chance on--a legit 2-way energy player, potentially better than Chris Copeland or any other SL invite we've had since I've been following the team. He was worth following up on, esp. when we finally got a glimpse of the money we're talking about--read Berman saying we lost this kid over what, 400k (Cuban gave him what, 600k guaranteed year 1 and we offered 200k)?? Wow...I mean that's chump change. The first words outta my mouth when I found out we lost Ndour were 'how much did Cubes give him'? If it was several million, maybe I could see why they passed but we're talking a few hundred thousand bucks here...All I needed to know... Acy, Early, Galloway, Amundson and Lance Thomas--all made/make more money than that--Ndour has a good chance to be better than any of those guys. That's the bet I'll take...And the Garden would've loved this kid too. ABSOULTELY LOVED HIM!!! For me, the next best thing to building an honest to goodness championship roster and playing meaningful games is watching promising young players develop along the way. We had a good one here imho and pissed it away...

Just when I was starting to get over this gaffe, Knickerblogger.net puts out a great article yesterday on how losing Ndour was a mistake--it's right on the money word for word: http://knickerblogger.net/why-the-new-yo.... And now Berman's providing good insight into the mistake too: http://nypost.com/2015/07/28/why-knicks-.... What are ya gonna do? Still SMH man...

If Monroe is as good as you claim - why did Detroit let him fly?

If Shved is as good as you claim - why did no other NBA team sign him?

To annoint Ndour as an IMPACT NBA player at both ends without even seeing him in an NBA game is pretty funny.

foosballnick wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

misterearl wrote:there, The Answer Man said it.

Interesting... I don't know whether I'd take that bet or not, I actually like D-Will and think he can turn things around and start playing up to his capabilities (Shved finally started well, the best ball of his career in fact, right? Some guys just come on late), but the bottom line for me is that Maurice Ndour is a player--an impact player in the NBA on both ends. As obvious as the sky is blue.. Wish we could've had both. We SHOULD'VE had both on board... No good reason in the world not to. Comes down to thriftiness and laziness--complete miscalculation on Phil's part. 100%. Absolutely no way around it.. We've seen this pattern now with at least 3 players (that we know about)--Greg Monroe, Alexey Shved and Mo Ndour. Up to me, ALL THREE would've been Knicks and all 3 would've been KEY rotation players. The first guy's a 25-yr-old 6'11" 250 lb. PF/C that would've averaged 20/10 for this team for years to come (don't care about what MONROE couldn't do--never once concerned about that. Every player has shortcomings--20/10 is WHAT HE COULD DO!! And he would've come for a reduced max anyway compared to other players which made him an automatic bargain, a huge important element to that mistake that just gets glossed over); the 2nd guy was a big/versatile guard that EXCELLED in this triangle when others couldn't (just look at what Shane Larkin had to say about the triangle among other skeptical players/analysts/fans) and was clearly the best player we had to close out the year. As for Ndour, dude was EVERYTHING you could've hoped for in a surprise SL player worth taking a chance on--a legit 2-way energy player, potentially better than Chris Copeland or any other SL invite we've had since I've been following the team. He was worth following up on, esp. when we finally got a glimpse of the money we're talking about--read Berman saying we lost this kid over what, 400k (Cuban gave him what, 600k guaranteed year 1 and we offered 200k)?? Wow...I mean that's chump change. The first words outta my mouth when I found out we lost Ndour were 'how much did Cubes give him'? If it was several million, maybe I could see why they passed but we're talking a few hundred thousand bucks here...All I needed to know... Acy, Early, Galloway, Amundson and Lance Thomas--all made/make more money than that--Ndour has a good chance to be better than any of those guys. That's the bet I'll take...And the Garden would've loved this kid too. ABSOULTELY LOVED HIM!!! For me, the next best thing to building an honest to goodness championship roster and playing meaningful games is watching promising young players develop along the way. We had a good one here imho and pissed it away...

Just when I was starting to get over this gaffe, Knickerblogger.net puts out a great article yesterday on how losing Ndour was a mistake--it's right on the money word for word: http://knickerblogger.net/why-the-new-yo.... And now Berman's providing good insight into the mistake too: http://nypost.com/2015/07/28/why-knicks-.... What are ya gonna do? Still SMH man...

If Monroe is as good as you claim - why did Detroit let him fly?

If Shved is as good as you claim - why did no other NBA team sign him?

To annoint Ndour as an IMPACT NBA player at both ends without even seeing him in an NBA game is pretty funny.

We'll see. Decisions had to be made on the fly and I don't agree with quite a few Phil made here. These 3 players in particular -- Phil apparently wanted them but at unrealistically reduced prices and wasn't nearly aggressive enough to get them in the fold...These are players I wanted along the way. We didn't get/keep any of them. Not a one...We'll see soon enough what type of impact they have (provided their usage is what I envisioned them getting here) and whether or not they could've helped us. I say YES, they could've. A RESOUNDING YES in fact..Absolutely. I trust what my eyes and my gut tells me. No question about it...You say no. OK. LOL...What do you want me to tell ya, buddy? You're entitled to your opinion, as am I...Let's wait and see.. Gotta say though--hard to wrap my head around you and a few others supposedly being Knick fans and not having even the slightest problem with Phil's decision not to add/retain these players. That's mindboggling to me dude, honestly. People are still talking about Mo Ndour days after we let him go. What's that tell ya? Quite a few people out there thought it was a mistake letting that kid go, not just me..

We offered Ndour 200k! I can't believe that. Then we tried to negotiate with his agent but Ndour wouldn't go back on his 600k deal with Dallas.
Sorry, but offering the kid 200k and then Dallas' 600k made that first offer a bit of an embarrassment. I kind of don't blame him for sticking with his deal.
Why lowball a guy like that when you just overpaid for Amundson and Thomas AND got extra in salary cap?

http://theknicksblog.com/knicks/knicks-p...

One thing about the New York Knicks is that they’re persistent.

After Maurice Ndour came to terms on a deal with the Dallas Mavericks, the Knicks continued to make a push for the power forward. The Knicks reached out to Ndour’s camp to see if they could come to an agreement, but Ndour refused to go back on his verbal agreement with Mark Cuban, a source told the New York Post.

Ndour grabbed plenty of teams’ attention during the NBA Summer League, averaging 9.6 points, 4.8 rebounds and 2.0 blocks per game. He signed with the Mavericks last week for more than the $600,000 rookie free-agent minimum, according to the report.

The Knicks offered Ndour less than $200,000 in hopes that the forward’s New York roots would persuade him to take less to stay home.

Isn't the guaranteed money Dallas gave Ndour more than the same amount would be in NY due to taxes? It seems the Knicks would've had to go over and above by a good amount to actually make an offer that was greater after taxes than the Dallas offer. I'm guessing Ndour's agent would've made that clear to him.

In the end I liked Ndour like everyone else. I thought we might lose him so it wasn't really a shock. As for DWill, I think Phil is taking a chance because he has a hunch that under the right circumstances that DWill could actually play much better. The last month of the season DWill had an increased role and he played much better. I'm assuming that with a more prominent role, consistent minutes and shots DWill is gonna have a very good year for the Knicks.

I pulled out all of his games of 20 minutes of more. There's some inconsistency but there's also some hope that he can become more consistently good.

                MIN	FGM-FGA	 FG%	3PM-3PA	 3P%	FTM-FTA	 FT%	REB	AST	BLK	STL	PF	TO	PTS
Sat 11/22	30	4-7	.571	1-2	.500	3-4	.750	6	0	0	0	1	3	12
Thu 11/20	22	4-9	.444	0-0	.000	2-4	.500	2	2	0	0	0	0	10
Sat 12/13	24	3-11	.273	0-2	.000	2-4	.500	6	1	0	2	0	0	8
Thu 12/11	34	5-12	.417	2-4	.500	5-6	.833	5	1	0	0	3	1	17
Tue 12/9	21	2-4	.500	0-1	.000	2-6	.333	3	0	0	1	1	3	6
Thu 12/18	24	2-5	.400	2-4	.500	3-4	.750	3	0	0	0	0	2	9
Fri 12/26	22	7-9	.778	1-2	.500	1-3	.333	5	0	0	1	0	1	16
Wed 1/7	        27	1-4	.250	1-2	.500	1-2	.500	6	1	0	1	0	1	4
Sun 1/4	        23	5-9	.556	0-2	.000	2-4	.500	2	1	0	0	0	0	12
Thu 1/1	        31	6-10	.600	3-6	.500	2-2	1.000	5	3	1	2	1	2	17
Mon 1/19	24	2-5	.400	0-1	.000	2-2	1.000	1	0	0	0	2	0	6
Sat 1/17	28	5-10	.500	0-3	.000	3-4	.750	5	2	0	0	3	1	13
Fri 1/16	33	5-11	.455	0-1	.000	0-0	.000	6	1	0	1	0	0	10
Tue 1/13	36	5-12	.417	0-2	.000	2-4	.500	10	2	0	2	2	1	12
Fri 1/23	22	2-5	.400	0-2	.000	5-6	.833	5	2	0	0	1	1	9
Tue 2/3	        21	1-3	.333	0-0	.000	0-0	.000	3	0	0	0	1	1	2
Sun 2/8	        29	2-7	.286	0-1	.000	0-0	.000	6	1	0	1	1	0	4
Wed 2/11	31	3-7	.429	1-4	.250	4-6	.667	4	3	0	1	4	1	11
Tue 3/3	        28	7-12	.583	3-5	.600	0-2	.000	3	2	0	1	2	1	17
Sun 3/1	        23	7-12	.583	0-2	.000	4-5	.800	1	0	0	0	0	1	18
Sat 3/14	34	6-11	.545	3-6	.500	0-0	.000	1	1	0	0	0	2	15
Fri 3/13	31	5-9	.556	2-5	.400	3-4	.750	3	0	0	1	0	0	15
Wed 3/11	23	1-5	.200	1-5	.200	0-0	.000	1	1	0	1	2	1	3
Fri 3/20	25	4-8	.500	1-4	.250	4-6	.667	2	2	0	0	1	0	13
Wed 3/18	24	3-6	.500	1-3	.333	4-5	.800	1	1	0	0	1	2	11
Wed 3/25	29	4-8	.500	1-3	.333	3-4	.750	4	1	0	0	4	2	12
Mon 3/30	24	4-14	.286	0-3	.000	2-4	.500	5	0	0	0	1	1	10
Wed 4/15	34	9-16	.563	2-4	.500	2-4	.500	6	3	0	0	2	2	22
Mon 4/13	29	6-12	.500	1-4	.250	7-9	.778	1	2	0	1	1	1	20
Sun 4/12	29	4-11	.364	0-3	.000	5-5	1.000	3	2	0	3	1	1	13
Fri 4/10	26	5-15	.333	0-4	.000	7-9	.778	6	1	0	0	2	2	17
Wed 4/8	        29	5-11	.455	3-7	.429	1-4	.250	5	1	0	3	0	0	14
Tue 4/7	        31	8-12	.667	0-2	.000	2-4	.500	8	1	1	0	1	1	18
Sun 4/5	        26	4-7	.571	1-3	.333	0-1	.000	0	0	0	2	1	1	9
Fri 4/3	        26	3-7	.429	0-2	.000	4-5	.800	1	0	0	0	2	0	10
Wed 4/1	        21	4-11	.364	2-2	1.000	0-2	.000	5	2	0	0	0	1	10

earthmansurfer wrote:We offered Ndour 200k! I can't believe that. Then we tried to negotiate with his agent but Ndour wouldn't go back on his 600k deal with Dallas.
Sorry, but offering the kid 200k and then Dallas' 600k made that first offer a bit of an embarrassment. I kind of don't blame him for sticking with his deal.
Why lowball a guy like that when you just overpaid for Amundson and Thomas AND got extra in salary cap?

http://theknicksblog.com/knicks/knicks-p...

One thing about the New York Knicks is that they’re persistent.

After Maurice Ndour came to terms on a deal with the Dallas Mavericks, the Knicks continued to make a push for the power forward. The Knicks reached out to Ndour’s camp to see if they could come to an agreement, but Ndour refused to go back on his verbal agreement with Mark Cuban, a source told the New York Post.

Ndour grabbed plenty of teams’ attention during the NBA Summer League, averaging 9.6 points, 4.8 rebounds and 2.0 blocks per game. He signed with the Mavericks last week for more than the $600,000 rookie free-agent minimum, according to the report.

The Knicks offered Ndour less than $200,000 in hopes that the forward’s New York roots would persuade him to take less to stay home.

My thoughts exactly, EMS. HUGE head-scratcher.. We haven't shown nearly the amount of aggressiveness needed to get certain key FAs we apparently coveted and to keep other players in the fold.

Could be the feel good story of the season. "An underachiever now with the mentorship of PHISH finds his way in the triangle and with a culture to back him,and a stable coaching situation a former no. 2 pick fulfils his potential!!!!!!!"

Not predicting this, but it could happen!!! I'll be rooting for it than hoping to be right if Derrick Williams is not as good as NDour.

Finestrg wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

misterearl wrote:there, The Answer Man said it.

Interesting... I don't know whether I'd take that bet or not, I actually like D-Will and think he can turn things around and start playing up to his capabilities (Shved finally started well, the best ball of his career in fact, right? Some guys just come on late), but the bottom line for me is that Maurice Ndour is a player--an impact player in the NBA on both ends. As obvious as the sky is blue.. Wish we could've had both. We SHOULD'VE had both on board... No good reason in the world not to. Comes down to thriftiness and laziness--complete miscalculation on Phil's part. 100%. Absolutely no way around it.. We've seen this pattern now with at least 3 players (that we know about)--Greg Monroe, Alexey Shved and Mo Ndour. Up to me, ALL THREE would've been Knicks and all 3 would've been KEY rotation players. The first guy's a 25-yr-old 6'11" 250 lb. PF/C that would've averaged 20/10 for this team for years to come (don't care about what MONROE couldn't do--never once concerned about that. Every player has shortcomings--20/10 is WHAT HE COULD DO!! And he would've come for a reduced max anyway compared to other players which made him an automatic bargain, a huge important element to that mistake that just gets glossed over); the 2nd guy was a big/versatile guard that EXCELLED in this triangle when others couldn't (just look at what Shane Larkin had to say about the triangle among other skeptical players/analysts/fans) and was clearly the best player we had to close out the year. As for Ndour, dude was EVERYTHING you could've hoped for in a surprise SL player worth taking a chance on--a legit 2-way energy player, potentially better than Chris Copeland or any other SL invite we've had since I've been following the team. He was worth following up on, esp. when we finally got a glimpse of the money we're talking about--read Berman saying we lost this kid over what, 400k (Cuban gave him what, 600k guaranteed year 1 and we offered 200k)?? Wow...I mean that's chump change. The first words outta my mouth when I found out we lost Ndour were 'how much did Cubes give him'? If it was several million, maybe I could see why they passed but we're talking a few hundred thousand bucks here...All I needed to know... Acy, Early, Galloway, Amundson and Lance Thomas--all made/make more money than that--Ndour has a good chance to be better than any of those guys. That's the bet I'll take...And the Garden would've loved this kid too. ABSOULTELY LOVED HIM!!! For me, the next best thing to building an honest to goodness championship roster and playing meaningful games is watching promising young players develop along the way. We had a good one here imho and pissed it away...

Just when I was starting to get over this gaffe, Knickerblogger.net puts out a great article yesterday on how losing Ndour was a mistake--it's right on the money word for word: http://knickerblogger.net/why-the-new-yo.... And now Berman's providing good insight into the mistake too: http://nypost.com/2015/07/28/why-knicks-.... What are ya gonna do? Still SMH man...

If Monroe is as good as you claim - why did Detroit let him fly?

If Shved is as good as you claim - why did no other NBA team sign him?

To annoint Ndour as an IMPACT NBA player at both ends without even seeing him in an NBA game is pretty funny.

We'll see. Decisions had to be made on the fly and I don't agree with quite a few Phil made here. These 3 players in particular -- Phil apparently wanted them but at unrealistically reduced prices and wasn't nearly aggressive enough to get them in the fold...These are players I wanted along the way. We didn't get/keep any of them. Not a one...We'll see soon enough what type of impact they have (provided their usage is what I envisioned them getting here) and whether or not they could've helped us. I say YES, they could've. A RESOUNDING YES in fact..Absolutely. I trust what my eyes and my gut tells me. No question about it...You say no. OK. LOL...What do you want me to tell ya, buddy? You're entitled to your opinion, as am I...Let's wait and see.. Gotta say though--hard to wrap my head around you and a few others supposedly being Knick fans and not having even the slightest problem with Phil's decision not to add/retain these players. That's mindboggling to me dude, honestly. People are still talking about Mo Ndour days after we let him go. What's that tell ya? Quite a few people out there thought it was a mistake letting that kid go, not just me..

And there it is. When someone does not agree with your view, you question their fanhood. Sorry, but to many of us, ALL of your posts are headscratchers. Based on what you write, it appears that you believe just putting a bunch of guys you want on the roster constitutes a contending NBA team.

1) Monroe is an offensive PF/C who plays subpar defense. The Knicks have an extremely offensive minded SF/PF who basically operates in the same space as Monroe. Monroe craves the ball to score - sound like someone else on the team? Plus the Knicks drafted a promising offensive minded PF/C. They are constructing a TEAM - this is not Fantasy Basketball. They did not miss out on Monroe - they passed on Monroe for reasons obvious to almost everyone but you.

2) Shved is a JOURNEYMAN SG who played for 4 NBA teams with below average advanced stats. He played 16 games for the Knicks during a period where the team was so out of it and so bad it made the games less than meaningless. You are laying your claim that the guy is some kind of impact player and deserved $2.8 million for a 16 game run of meaningless games. Apparently you know more than every GM in the NBA who let the guy leave to play in Russia.......and to think you question my Knick fanhood based on this obscene expession of logic.

3) Ndour is an undrafted free agent who played in 4 summer league games against D Leaguers - and based on your EYE TEST - you are proclaiming him as an impact NBA player. The only reason 99% of the people here even care about Ndour is because he played for the Knicks summer league affiliate and not some other team. Can we let the kid get through a training camp at least before we have to suffer through your continual 500 word lamentations on the state of the Knicks and how incmpetent Phil is for not signing this kid. Again - very hard to take you seriously.

People going nuts because NDour had 23pts 6rebs in a summer league game.

What was Derrick Williams' stat line from his last NBA game last season? 22pts 6rebs 3ast 9/16fg 2/4 3pt. That's against NBA competition. Not summer league.

Derrick Williams is 13 months older than NDour.

I liked the way NDour played in Summer League. But I can't wait to see how the Answer Man feels about this thread in April.

foosballnick wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

foosballnick wrote:

Finestrg wrote:

misterearl wrote:there, The Answer Man said it.

Interesting... I don't know whether I'd take that bet or not, I actually like D-Will and think he can turn things around and start playing up to his capabilities (Shved finally started well, the best ball of his career in fact, right? Some guys just come on late), but the bottom line for me is that Maurice Ndour is a player--an impact player in the NBA on both ends. As obvious as the sky is blue.. Wish we could've had both. We SHOULD'VE had both on board... No good reason in the world not to. Comes down to thriftiness and laziness--complete miscalculation on Phil's part. 100%. Absolutely no way around it.. We've seen this pattern now with at least 3 players (that we know about)--Greg Monroe, Alexey Shved and Mo Ndour. Up to me, ALL THREE would've been Knicks and all 3 would've been KEY rotation players. The first guy's a 25-yr-old 6'11" 250 lb. PF/C that would've averaged 20/10 for this team for years to come (don't care about what MONROE couldn't do--never once concerned about that. Every player has shortcomings--20/10 is WHAT HE COULD DO!! And he would've come for a reduced max anyway compared to other players which made him an automatic bargain, a huge important element to that mistake that just gets glossed over); the 2nd guy was a big/versatile guard that EXCELLED in this triangle when others couldn't (just look at what Shane Larkin had to say about the triangle among other skeptical players/analysts/fans) and was clearly the best player we had to close out the year. As for Ndour, dude was EVERYTHING you could've hoped for in a surprise SL player worth taking a chance on--a legit 2-way energy player, potentially better than Chris Copeland or any other SL invite we've had since I've been following the team. He was worth following up on, esp. when we finally got a glimpse of the money we're talking about--read Berman saying we lost this kid over what, 400k (Cuban gave him what, 600k guaranteed year 1 and we offered 200k)?? Wow...I mean that's chump change. The first words outta my mouth when I found out we lost Ndour were 'how much did Cubes give him'? If it was several million, maybe I could see why they passed but we're talking a few hundred thousand bucks here...All I needed to know... Acy, Early, Galloway, Amundson and Lance Thomas--all made/make more money than that--Ndour has a good chance to be better than any of those guys. That's the bet I'll take...And the Garden would've loved this kid too. ABSOULTELY LOVED HIM!!! For me, the next best thing to building an honest to goodness championship roster and playing meaningful games is watching promising young players develop along the way. We had a good one here imho and pissed it away...

Just when I was starting to get over this gaffe, Knickerblogger.net puts out a great article yesterday on how losing Ndour was a mistake--it's right on the money word for word: http://knickerblogger.net/why-the-new-yo.... And now Berman's providing good insight into the mistake too: http://nypost.com/2015/07/28/why-knicks-.... What are ya gonna do? Still SMH man...

If Monroe is as good as you claim - why did Detroit let him fly?

If Shved is as good as you claim - why did no other NBA team sign him?

To annoint Ndour as an IMPACT NBA player at both ends without even seeing him in an NBA game is pretty funny.

We'll see. Decisions had to be made on the fly and I don't agree with quite a few Phil made here. These 3 players in particular -- Phil apparently wanted them but at unrealistically reduced prices and wasn't nearly aggressive enough to get them in the fold...These are players I wanted along the way. We didn't get/keep any of them. Not a one...We'll see soon enough what type of impact they have (provided their usage is what I envisioned them getting here) and whether or not they could've helped us. I say YES, they could've. A RESOUNDING YES in fact..Absolutely. I trust what my eyes and my gut tells me. No question about it...You say no. OK. LOL...What do you want me to tell ya, buddy? You're entitled to your opinion, as am I...Let's wait and see.. Gotta say though--hard to wrap my head around you and a few others supposedly being Knick fans and not having even the slightest problem with Phil's decision not to add/retain these players. That's mindboggling to me dude, honestly. People are still talking about Mo Ndour days after we let him go. What's that tell ya? Quite a few people out there thought it was a mistake letting that kid go, not just me..

And there it is. When someone does not agree with your view, you question their fanhood. Sorry, but to many of us, ALL of your posts are headscratchers. Based on what you write, it appears that you believe just putting a bunch of guys you want on the roster constitutes a contending NBA team.

1) Monroe is an offensive PF/C who plays subpar defense. The Knicks have an extremely offensive minded SF/PF who basically operates in the same space as Monroe. Monroe craves the ball to score - sound like someone else on the team? Plus the Knicks drafted a promising offensive minded PF/C. They are constructing a TEAM - this is not Fantasy Basketball. They did not miss out on Monroe - they passed on Monroe for reasons obvious to almost everyone but you.

2) Shved is a JOURNEYMAN SG who played for 4 NBA teams with below average advanced stats. He played 16 games for the Knicks during a period where the team was so out of it and so bad it made the games less than meaningless. You are laying your claim that the guy is some kind of impact player and deserved $2.8 million for a 16 game run of meaningless games. Apparently you know more than every GM in the NBA who let the guy leave to play in Russia.......and to think you question my Knick fanhood based on this obscene expession of logic.

3) Ndour is an undrafted free agent who played in 4 summer league games against D Leaguers - and based on your EYE TEST - you are proclaiming him as an impact NBA player. The only reason 99% of the people here even care about Ndour is because he played for the Knicks summer league affiliate and not some other team. Can we let the kid get through a training camp at least before we have to suffer through your continual 500 word lamentations on the state of the Knicks and how incmpetent Phil is for not signing this kid. Again - very hard to take you seriously.

And there what is, buddy?? I mean there ya go again, foo fighter -- off the rails once again with the personal shit. Look back at our exchanges here -- I didn't seek you out, YOU CHOSE AGAIN TO TAKE ME TO TASK on a position I took on something, going point by point how I supposedly don't make any sense...Says you. Go ask others--our own earthmansurfer, Marc Berman, or the guy that wrote that in-depth 100% accurate blog article on not retaining Ndour if I'm making any sense..If I make no sense to you, why do you bother to respond to everything I wish to talk about? Please don't anymore--it's annoying...I haven't responded to 1 original post or idea you've had. Not one. Nor will I. Why? Because you're out of line and wish to make this more than basketball--impossible to have a basketball conversation with you--it's always about other stuff. Why would I want to get involved in that shit? I don't care about the baby shit, bro -- couldn't care less that you disagree with me and think I make no sense, couldn't care less what you think of me as a poster...You and your buddy newyorker (if you're not the same person) have nothing to say that I wish to discuss with either of you. Your friend's already on ignore. LOL...Yet again another instance here where I comment on an issue, one a care about and feel strongly about, provide what I think is good insight along with links to two sources: a well-known beat reporter's take on matters and a very well-written internet blog article, both which substantiate what I'm talking about yet somehow, I'm an illogical head-scratcher of a poster who only cares about playing fantasy basketball with our roster, makes no sense, is speaking a different language and can't be taken seriously?? LMAO. OK...Then don't take me seriously and stop responding to my posts!! Simple. I really hope this puts an end to this nonsense. It's become tiresome.

crzymdups wrote:People going nuts because NDour had 23pts 6rebs in a summer league game.

What was Derrick Williams' stat line from his last NBA game last season? 22pts 6rebs 3ast 9/16fg 2/4 3pt. That's against NBA competition. Not summer league.

Derrick Williams is 13 months older than NDour.

I liked the way NDour played in Summer League. But I can't wait to see how the Answer Man feels about this thread in April.

and look at the Knick roster. Not a lot of guys who can get buckets. Put this guy in a 2nd unit with some lunch pale guys and he will be an impact scorer for you off the bench. I don't think he's going to be good... I mean he's been a bad NBA player. I will say different when I see different. I think this signing is a stretch to be honest... but I do 100% think he's in a position to succeed and CAN succeed. Seeing is believing. Im rooting for him for sure. If he could be a scorer off the bench, like an Al Harrington that would be a nice piece. One case you get a draft pick at the deadline if he's playing well. Worst case you wasted $5mm of cap space if he flames out and takes his option. Best case he carves out a role and is an impact player like a top 5 pick should be.

All this excitement for a 4 year undrafted player that no one has ever heard about it until it scored 23 points in a Summer league game.

Summer league.

That is possible. It is also possible that ndour will turn out to be a scrub and derrick William reaches half of his potential.

Aldridge will have a better season then NDour and Williams combined

there, I said it

I agree with FINSTRNG and others here, Greg Monroe is a 20/10 player and if you add in Lou Amundson and Lance Thomas's 3m in salary with Robin Lopez's salary, it would be less than what Greg Monroe makes
Asking Greg Monroe to take SLIGHTLY less and asking him for a 13 to 13.5m vs the 15.5m he could make is too much of a realistic offer
He might have taken a contract starting at 14.5m and with the rise of the cap and the way that other FA's are making, it would STILL BE A BARGAIN

Both Robin Lopez and Affalo were the WORST talents out of the 5 players on Portlands STARTLING LINEUP, with Wesley Matthews injury on the Blazers roster, making Affalo the starting SG
Despite that, Affalo still struggled for the entire year whether in Denver or on Portland, as he approaches 30 years of age, and is currently our #2nd man AFTER CA
While Robin Lopez's production was replaced by Chris Kaman, Meyers Leanard, and Joel Freeland

Lilliard *could play both PG and SG, his extension says all we need to know that would pay him 120-150m for 5 seasons as his FIRST CONTRACT/EXTENSION after his rookie deal*

Battum *probably closest player to Scotty Pippen on BOTH OFFENSE and DEFENSE with versatility currently in the entire NBA, with the other being Andrew Wiggons*

Aldridge *closest player to Pau Gasol in his prime on The Lakers*

are all better than the players that we currently have, while Affalo and Robin Lopez will be playing bigger roles than they did in Portland
Dorrell Wright would be better than many of our SG/SF with the ability to play some stretch 4 as well, that is currently a RFA

If Portland's team wasn't enough to be a contender, than my point is we are FAR away from what Portland was, a reason why they broke the team up to begin with
We NEED ALL STARS that could draw double teams, consistently make plays for each other, and get HIGH % shots for us

Hopefully in these next 2 years we will make use of the rise of the cap and sign such talents
However, what makes next year or the following years different in TOP TIER talents choosing New York over other teams with less taxes/lower cost of living with property?

Given that N'Dour probably will not play much for Dallas and Williams will probably play 10-15 minutes a night for us, I think your prediction is off. However, I will agree that I don't like the Williams signing given the amount we paid and the player option on the second year.

TheGame wrote:Given that N'Dour probably will not play much for Dallas and Williams will probably play 10-15 minutes a night for us, I think your prediction is off. However, I will agree that I don't like the Williams signing given the amount we paid and the player option on the second year.

Outside of DWill's contract I think his actual game fits what the Knicks are trying to do. If you have a big who is athletic and powerful enough to attack the basket with regularity on all the very same cuts we run with less talented players, then DWill has a chance to be more successful at scoring at the basket or drawing fouls.

The looks that Thomas got in this offense are pretty much the same ones that DWill will get, but what he does with the ball may be even better.

Since Whiteside NEVER GOT BIG MONEY before and NEVER GOT ENDORSEMENTS, he may be the perfect player to target for our system, that is a 2way player, considering we NEED
A player that could DOMINATE in the paint with high %, GRAB REBOUNDS, DEFEND at a high level on multiple position with mobility and athleticism (with youth), and can provide shot blocking with KP's length, mobility, and size
Both Whiteside and KP compliment each other very well and would fit in with New York's NEEDS, along with the Triangle and the endorsements/branding for Whiteside to make more money just as Shaq did when he joined the Lakers

If we can convince Whiteside to join us next year over other teams, it would have a ripple effect that would allow us to target other TOP TIER talents such Westbrook in 2years will be a UFA to play a KOBE/JORDAN role with Whiteside playing a Shaq/Bynum role, with KP playing a Pau Gasol role, possibly David Lee playing Lamar Odom's role and Thanasis playing Ariza's role, with Shabazz Muhammad being another talent that could penetrate and finish, handle the ball/push tempo, and have the ability to POST UP to play SG/SF, Battum is a UFA this upcoming season as well, who could play a Scotty Pippen role on both OFF and DEFENSE, with the ability to create shots/facilitate with his size/versatility/ and skill sets, and could defend PG, SG, SF, and PF like Pippen did...
We can easily find ROLE PLAYERS to fit in the Triangle AFTER we acquire TOP TIER TALENTS that will consistently draw double teams and create high % shots

These are the TARGETS we should be looking to acquire and build a relationship with their AGENTS right NOW, like we did with Greg Monroe and this time WE CAN NOT F%$@ UP
Yes, a guy on a message board, can put together a team that would be contenders for NYK's and The Triangle, better than the 13 rings he has earned as a player and coach
And I would not require 12m per yer on a 5year deal either

Hassan Whiteside next summer who we may target as a UFA, along with a trade for Shabazz Muhammad, and signing Westbrook who will be a UFA
While some other options at Center include Pau Gasol/Noah, MosGoV, Hibbert/AL Jefferson, if we can trade Robin Lopez for assets
Along with the age and inability to change his game at his age with CA, we can easily build a much better team if we can move Robin Lopez and CA's contracts especially if we get assets out of them

As Phil Jackson stated earlier, he wanted to improve our DEFENSE and get players that can consistently get to the rim and finish, along with play makers to could create their own shot and create for the team
We have NOT done that with the 30m we had to spend this summer and in order to attract TOP TIER FA's, we will NEED TO SHOW that we can contend at a high level
CA is in a sense like what Kobe is right to the Lakers, a older player that players DO NOT WANT TO PLAY WITH, at least NOT IN New York
The only player we had a shot to get was Greg Monroe while we low balled him only to use that money to sign to 15th man on our roster with LA and LT instead of a vet min deal

Derrick Williams has no leverage to ask for a TEAM OPTION and 5m per year considering that NO TEAM would even consider him at such a contract
We outbid ourselves, I do like him as a player but we over payed for him, and gave him a player option on us
With Gereld Green, Wesley Johnson, and Josh Smith signing vet min deals, Derrick WIlliams is in NO POSITION to make 5m, end of STORY and get a PLAYER OPTION ON TOP OF IT
He is a steal at a vet min, he is probably worth about 2-3m at best for continued development, and NO WAY he gets a player option at 5m per year
If he does do well, he OPT out and we lose a player that we developed and fit within this system OR OVERPAY MORE FOR HIM

However, with N Dour, we could have locked him up to a 3year deal, using part of our ROOM EXEMPTION on him, with even a possible 4year deal, while his potential is comparable to Draymond Green, a player that just signed a MAX 5year deal
He is currently listed at 200pds, however, if we can get his weight/strength up to about 240-250, in a couple of years, who knows what he can become
Draymond Green DID NOTHING his first year, however, he got some playing time his 2nd year with Mark Jackson, and last season was his 3rd year and with Steve Kerr
The difference from GS's previous years and last years Championship team was in part due to Draymond Green STARTING JOB with his versatile skill set on BOTH OFF and DEF
With the changes to the STARTING LINEUP that NO COACH would have the balls to do, choosing skills, speed, and DEFENSE, while giving up much size
With that starting lineup, there MUST BE a mismatch to take advantage off

5 PLAYERS that could ALL DEFEND and PLAY HELP DEFENSE, while recovering very fast
5 3pt shooters to spread the floor
5 PLAYMAKERS that could handle the ball and PUSH THE TEMP while grabbing the rebound, as the others can quickly run to push the tempo

The difference from having 1 player, Andrew Bogut, that can not create his own shot and a non scoring threat allows Cleveland to cheat, was completely NIGHT AND DAY
GS, Steve Kerr, and ALvin Gentry, with their staff, totally understand the changes to the game with the way the NBA has evolved
Taking philosophies and sets from the triangle with tweaks, along with philosophies of Dantoni's system, and from The Spur's with Poppavich as well, especially their DEFENSIVE principles and player/ball movement on OFFENSE

However, executing all these philosophies and making a system out of it was not an easy task, while also considered the strengths of their own team to implement a SYSTEM THAT FITS THE STRENGTH OF THE PLAYERS
While we are doing the opposite, implementing a system without having the players to execute the system on a high level, and willing to take a couple years to develop the players and the system itself
While majority of the league DOES NOT CARE for it along with the players
Phil Jackson is NOT COACHING, Derek Fisher is, with NO MJ/Pippen/Kukoc/Rodman/Harper, Shaq/Kobe/Ron Harper/Horry/ Horace Grant or Kobe/Pau Gasol/Andrew Bynum/ Odom/ Fisher/ Ariza *I think they would have won 1-2 rings had they kept Ariza who was in his prime*

It takes time to execute the Triangle while there are zone DEFENSE now that changes the league along with the evolution of the league with Dantoni/3pt shooters in multiple positions (with 4-5 threats on the floor together) and their range/ and the speed/quickness of the game with guards and the PnR

The 3pt shot is no longer a difficult shot any longer with the changes to the league, along with BIGS that can shoot it
The speed/quickness/athleticism changed the tempo and ability to defend in multiple positions now along with ZONE DEFENSE
Having 2 BIGS no longer works, even when Pau Gasol and Bynum played together, they were limited in playing TOGETHER except for 1 season
While they were also in their primes, it simply does not work because they can not go out to defend the 3pt shot that many could easily shoot now
Steve Kerr understood this, however, Phil Jackson still thinks that he can prove the league wrong, while he isn't even coaching...