Knicks · The 54 Win Knicks Versus The 2015-16 Knicks (page 3)

nyvector16 wrote:The 54 wins were mostly due to 1 person... that no one on this thread has mentioned. Mike D'Antoni.

The 54 win team owed 100% of its offense to what D'Antoni instilled in them the year before.
Unfortunately for D'Antoni he was a horrific defensive coach and always relied on outscoring opponents as opposed to stopping them.

When Woodson took over his entire focus was on defense and let everything that D'Antoni had going ride. He did not change anything about that offense.
Woodson was actually a half-decent defensive coach that excelled when his primary weakness was covered up.
Woodson was not that smart and could not adapt offensively to what other coaches did defensively.
Only thing left for him to do was resort to ISO Melo because it required zero thought.
A lot of people burn Melo for all those ISO plays, but it was Woodson that was calling them.

By the time playoffs rolled around we were hit hard with injuries, but the team had already spent over a year without any real offensive coaching and they fell apart.

Woodson did what the makeup of the roster allowed him to do. Or maybe he should have tried some creative things like let Tyson run point center. That would have really opened up the offense. You can only be as creative as the pieces you work with allow you to be. If Kidds back is gone and JR Smith is mentally gone and doing drugs and chasing Rhianna during his down time. The type of offense you run isn't going to matter when 2 of the main pieces that helped you get into the playoffs can't contribute for things that don't have to do with the type of offense you are running. Wasn't like Kidd and Jr were over matched due to the offense we ran.

dk7th wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:The 54 wins were mostly due to 1 person... that no one on this thread has mentioned. Mike D'Antoni.

The 54 win team owed 100% of its offense to what D'Antoni instilled in them the year before.
Unfortunately for D'Antoni he was a horrific defensive coach and always relied on outscoring opponents as opposed to stopping them.

When Woodson took over his entire focus was on defense and let everything that D'Antoni had going ride. He did not change anything about that offense.
Woodson was actually a half-decent defensive coach that excelled when his primary weakness was covered up.
Woodson was not that smart and could not adapt offensively to what other coaches did defensively.
Only thing left for him to do was resort to ISO Melo because it required zero thought.
A lot of people burn Melo for all those ISO plays, but it was Woodson that was calling them.

By the time playoffs rolled around we were hit hard with injuries, but the team had already spent over a year without any real offensive coaching and they fell apart.

that team didn't remind me of ssol at all. looked to me like it was pretty much jason kidd doing his thing, orchestrating as best as he could since felton was incompetent.

NO one ran SSOL except for Nash with the Suns. However, the rest of the MDA offense which they ran in the half court is exactly what the Knicks were doing in the beginning of the 54 win season.

They weren't running Woodson's offense. The Knicks were playing fast as they could and firing 3's out of a spread offense. PnR and kick to the perimeter.

Also we did a lot of posting Melo up with him kicking the ball out and swinging the ball around creating ball movement during the season. Was a lot harder to do on Indy since they had West and Hibbert camp the paint.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:The 54 wins were mostly due to 1 person... that no one on this thread has mentioned. Mike D'Antoni.

The 54 win team owed 100% of its offense to what D'Antoni instilled in them the year before.
Unfortunately for D'Antoni he was a horrific defensive coach and always relied on outscoring opponents as opposed to stopping them.

When Woodson took over his entire focus was on defense and let everything that D'Antoni had going ride. He did not change anything about that offense.
Woodson was actually a half-decent defensive coach that excelled when his primary weakness was covered up.
Woodson was not that smart and could not adapt offensively to what other coaches did defensively.
Only thing left for him to do was resort to ISO Melo because it required zero thought.
A lot of people burn Melo for all those ISO plays, but it was Woodson that was calling them.

By the time playoffs rolled around we were hit hard with injuries, but the team had already spent over a year without any real offensive coaching and they fell apart.

that team didn't remind me of ssol at all. looked to me like it was pretty much jason kidd doing his thing, orchestrating as best as he could since felton was incompetent.

NO one ran SSOL except for Nash with the Suns. However, the rest of the MDA offense which they ran in the half court is exactly what the Knicks were doing in the beginning of the 54 win season.

They weren't running Woodson's offense. The Knicks were playing fast as they could and firing 3's out of a spread offense. PnR and kick to the perimeter.

you are implying that felton was doing an adequate imitation of nash....

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:The 54 wins were mostly due to 1 person... that no one on this thread has mentioned. Mike D'Antoni.

The 54 win team owed 100% of its offense to what D'Antoni instilled in them the year before.
Unfortunately for D'Antoni he was a horrific defensive coach and always relied on outscoring opponents as opposed to stopping them.

When Woodson took over his entire focus was on defense and let everything that D'Antoni had going ride. He did not change anything about that offense.
Woodson was actually a half-decent defensive coach that excelled when his primary weakness was covered up.
Woodson was not that smart and could not adapt offensively to what other coaches did defensively.
Only thing left for him to do was resort to ISO Melo because it required zero thought.
A lot of people burn Melo for all those ISO plays, but it was Woodson that was calling them.

By the time playoffs rolled around we were hit hard with injuries, but the team had already spent over a year without any real offensive coaching and they fell apart.

that team didn't remind me of ssol at all. looked to me like it was pretty much jason kidd doing his thing, orchestrating as best as he could since felton was incompetent.

NO one ran SSOL except for Nash with the Suns. However, the rest of the MDA offense which they ran in the half court is exactly what the Knicks were doing in the beginning of the 54 win season.

They weren't running Woodson's offense. The Knicks were playing fast as they could and firing 3's out of a spread offense. PnR and kick to the perimeter.

you are implying that felton was doing an adequate imitation of nash....

Felton did the best he could, but he wasn't the shooter nor floor general Nash is of course. Felton needed help and it was a mixture of Kidd, Felton and Prigs. Kidd and Prigs were the real ball movers in the offense. All 3 together made it work. Felton doesn't have any real court vision but he could run a PnR well enough and he would penetrate when he was early in the season and still had some energy. IMO Felton would wear down over the course of a season due to carrying too much weight.

I think Jerian will be able to help this team function similarly but a little better than Felton in terms of his ability to run the team, see the floor and defend. Jerian can run PnR and penetrate but I believe he may be able to sustain his level of play better than Felton.

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nixluva wrote:

dk7th wrote:

nyvector16 wrote:The 54 wins were mostly due to 1 person... that no one on this thread has mentioned. Mike D'Antoni.

The 54 win team owed 100% of its offense to what D'Antoni instilled in them the year before.
Unfortunately for D'Antoni he was a horrific defensive coach and always relied on outscoring opponents as opposed to stopping them.

When Woodson took over his entire focus was on defense and let everything that D'Antoni had going ride. He did not change anything about that offense.
Woodson was actually a half-decent defensive coach that excelled when his primary weakness was covered up.
Woodson was not that smart and could not adapt offensively to what other coaches did defensively.
Only thing left for him to do was resort to ISO Melo because it required zero thought.
A lot of people burn Melo for all those ISO plays, but it was Woodson that was calling them.

By the time playoffs rolled around we were hit hard with injuries, but the team had already spent over a year without any real offensive coaching and they fell apart.

that team didn't remind me of ssol at all. looked to me like it was pretty much jason kidd doing his thing, orchestrating as best as he could since felton was incompetent.

NO one ran SSOL except for Nash with the Suns. However, the rest of the MDA offense which they ran in the half court is exactly what the Knicks were doing in the beginning of the 54 win season.

They weren't running Woodson's offense. The Knicks were playing fast as they could and firing 3's out of a spread offense. PnR and kick to the perimeter.

you are implying that felton was doing an adequate imitation of nash....

Felton did the best he could, but he wasn't the shooter nor floor general Nash is of course. Felton needed help and it was a mixture of Kidd, Felton and Prigs. Kidd and Prigs were the real ball movers in the offense. All 3 together made it work. Felton doesn't have any real court vision but he could run a PnR well enough and he would penetrate when he was early in the season and still had some energy. IMO Felton would wear down over the course of a season due to carrying too much weight.

I think Jerian will be able to help this team function similarly but a little better than Felton in terms of his ability to run the team, see the floor and defend. Jerian can run PnR and penetrate but I believe he may be able to sustain his level of play better than Felton.

shouldn't you be conveying this to that imbecile holfresh

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:As effective as the 2 point guard system was for that particular year, I'm hoping we never...ever....see that shyt again.

Let's play with a more traditional size guard and shooting guards, and not have to worry which opposing guard will have their career day against us.

Also, Melo 3rd in MVP voting that 54 win season aside, let's not have him play Power Forward this season. You risk losing him to injury to the David Wests, Garnetts, Blakes, Aldridges, and the rest of power forwards much bigger and stronger than Melo banging his body to kingdom come.

Phil likes his SG to have PG type skills. There is no pure PG in the Triangle. You really want as many capable passers at every position as you can get. The 2 PG style is actually very smart. Teams can't take away 2 PG's or passers. So it's not so much playing 2 real PG's but having capable passers/playmakers at more than the PG position.

I think Phil has no intention of playing Melo defensively against PF's. He's really loaded the team with legit PF's who are built to bang. This roster has some similarities with the 54 win team in regards to capable PF's.

The big difference between the 2015-16 team and the 54 win team is that they played more of a 4 out style and we now play the Triangle which is a motion offense. At it's best the 54 win team's offense was a more potent offense but it's hard to really depend on the 3pt shooting. The Triangle is not as dynamic but you can rely on it more from regular season to post season.

I believe that Phil is going to do everything he can to help this team become a legit defensive team. That was his calling card coming into coaching. He's already talked about wanting the team to be more aggressive defensively and attack the opposing PG more. He's added more Rim Protection to the roster as well. If this team can really defend at a high enough level that could be the key to a very successful season. They have some defensive talent to get it done.

We need to get back to more of that 4 out style of play from the 54 win season

Rookie wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:As effective as the 2 point guard system was for that particular year, I'm hoping we never...ever....see that shyt again.

Let's play with a more traditional size guard and shooting guards, and not have to worry which opposing guard will have their career day against us.

Also, Melo 3rd in MVP voting that 54 win season aside, let's not have him play Power Forward this season. You risk losing him to injury to the David Wests, Garnetts, Blakes, Aldridges, and the rest of power forwards much bigger and stronger than Melo banging his body to kingdom come.

Phil likes his SG to have PG type skills. There is no pure PG in the Triangle. You really want as many capable passers at every position as you can get. The 2 PG style is actually very smart. Teams can't take away 2 PG's or passers. So it's not so much playing 2 real PG's but having capable passers/playmakers at more than the PG position.

I think Phil has no intention of playing Melo defensively against PF's. He's really loaded the team with legit PF's who are built to bang. This roster has some similarities with the 54 win team in regards to capable PF's.

The big difference between the 2015-16 team and the 54 win team is that they played more of a 4 out style and we now play the Triangle which is a motion offense. At it's best the 54 win team's offense was a more potent offense but it's hard to really depend on the 3pt shooting. The Triangle is not as dynamic but you can rely on it more from regular season to post season.

I believe that Phil is going to do everything he can to help this team become a legit defensive team. That was his calling card coming into coaching. He's already talked about wanting the team to be more aggressive defensively and attack the opposing PG more. He's added more Rim Protection to the roster as well. If this team can really defend at a high enough level that could be the key to a very successful season. They have some defensive talent to get it done.

We need to get back to more of that 4 out style of play from the 54 win season

yes. And the style that is being used most successfully today in the NBA

mreinman wrote:

Rookie wrote:

nixluva wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:As effective as the 2 point guard system was for that particular year, I'm hoping we never...ever....see that shyt again.

Let's play with a more traditional size guard and shooting guards, and not have to worry which opposing guard will have their career day against us.

Also, Melo 3rd in MVP voting that 54 win season aside, let's not have him play Power Forward this season. You risk losing him to injury to the David Wests, Garnetts, Blakes, Aldridges, and the rest of power forwards much bigger and stronger than Melo banging his body to kingdom come.

Phil likes his SG to have PG type skills. There is no pure PG in the Triangle. You really want as many capable passers at every position as you can get. The 2 PG style is actually very smart. Teams can't take away 2 PG's or passers. So it's not so much playing 2 real PG's but having capable passers/playmakers at more than the PG position.

I think Phil has no intention of playing Melo defensively against PF's. He's really loaded the team with legit PF's who are built to bang. This roster has some similarities with the 54 win team in regards to capable PF's.

The big difference between the 2015-16 team and the 54 win team is that they played more of a 4 out style and we now play the Triangle which is a motion offense. At it's best the 54 win team's offense was a more potent offense but it's hard to really depend on the 3pt shooting. The Triangle is not as dynamic but you can rely on it more from regular season to post season.

I believe that Phil is going to do everything he can to help this team become a legit defensive team. That was his calling card coming into coaching. He's already talked about wanting the team to be more aggressive defensively and attack the opposing PG more. He's added more Rim Protection to the roster as well. If this team can really defend at a high enough level that could be the key to a very successful season. They have some defensive talent to get it done.

We need to get back to more of that 4 out style of play from the 54 win season

yes. And the style that is being used most successfully today in the NBA

It is really just a minor tweak to the Triangle to play 4 out. In Tex's own playbook he has 4 out looks and how you can flow out of the Triangle into a spread look as the Knicks had been doing a bit recently. It's IMO not exactly the best 3pt shooting team so I wouldn't try to run that all game. It can of course be effective in simplifying things for the players so there's no reason not to use it MORE than they have.

The Triangle System doesn't mean you can't shift the percentage of plays you run that aren't Side Triangle to more of a spread look. There are no hard n fast rules against a spread look. IMO mixing things up is how things should be done. The Knicks up to this point have still never used every aspect of the system. They most surely didn't mix things up enough from possession to possession.