Knicks · I predict that Melo will wave his no trade clause and wants out (page 7)

ChuckBuck wrote:If you guys can't accept that KP is better than Melo NOW, then I don't know what to tell you.

I agreed with you. It is you who won't accept that.

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:If you guys can't accept that KP is better than Melo NOW, then I don't know what to tell you.

I agreed with you. It is you who won't accept that.

Then you acknowledge KP as the Alpha Dog of the Knicks, right now?

what the hell is all this alpha dog stuff? kp is looking like a really nice player, but he's not better than carmelo yet and he's not an alpha dog. melo is the alpha dog.

Melo is clearly polarizing but this thread is getting pretty childish. There is an ebb and flow to any sports season so early season sabertrics are rather meaningless. Great to see KP excelling so early as it bodes well for a long great career but Melo and players like Lopez support his present game and allow it to grow. Remove Melo even a struggling Melo without similar scoring skills and it would be detrimental to KP at his stage as he would become the sole focus of D's and he's simply not ready for that despite all the well earned accolades. Sometimes we see flaws of talent much more than attributes and dont really understand the inter connections and consequences of our wishes. Get a player like KD and Melo would certainly be dispensable but right now he supports KP game and growth.

ChuckBuck wrote:

fishmike wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

Knixkik wrote:

crzymdups wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

fishmike wrote:
Guns you yourself said over and over that you are "highly concerned" about any prospect's chances to develop with a ball hog like Melo in the picture. How is KP's development coming?

That's fair question.

Yes it is.

I'm glad at the very least that this is proving Melo is no Kobe when it comes to preventing player development. Melo has done nothing but prove to help it, as credit is given unsolicited by KP each interview. But why believe him? It doesn't fit the agenda at all smh.

Or maybe KP is a good dude, and doesn't want to ruffle any feathers while he's still the rookie on the team.

Next year will be a different story, as it'll be KP's team.

The issue isn't KP's explanation of it. The issue is KP'd quite obvious development. Again, whatever opinion one may have shouldn't prevent them from acknowledging Porzingis is developing rapidly with Melo as the team alpha dog. That legitimately speaks to some of the more damming criticisms of him.

Wouldn't that be fair to say?

And as I mentioned in the thread you started yesterday that got zero attention because of this problem. Next year is a long ways away. I for one also hope KP is the better player that is ready to be the team's center of gravity.

But we have a LONG way to go until then. That you can't even manage to wish for a better result THIS year speaks volumes. You clearly prefer that Melo is struggling with his shot.

Which btw, almost certainly makes you different from KP. You admire him so much, follow his lead.

KP has become the Alpha dog already as evidenced by his higher win shares over the rapidly declining Melo.

It's not a long way to go, it's already happened. Only difference is one makes 124million.

I was responding to YOUR claim that NEXT year it'l be KP's team. You're pretty bad off when you can't even manage being agreed with.

Next year will officially be KP's team. Even though KP is the better player already NOW, he's ceding team leadership to the lame duck veteran Melo, him being the rookie and all.

Again, you choose to rebut me agreeing with you…

But you said Melo is the Alpha this year, I'm in total disagreement with that statement. Pretty much all logical and true Knicks fan know this a false statement. KP has surpassed him already.

KP is better now, better offensively, defensively, higher BBall IQ. He's just being politically correct and not trying to make waves...yet.

Porzingis is playing better, but that isn't the definition of alpha dog. Melo is still recognized as the team leader. He leads in minutes and shots and the ball goes through him.

This is exactly the area you need to distinguish between reality and your preference. There is nothing wrong anl everything right with having your valid preference and believing KP is the better player and at the same time recognizing how this team is structured.

Your fixation is so absolute, you jump through hoops just not to acknowledge quite obvious facts and try to spin them.

Melo is the team leader and alpha dog. KP would be first to agree. KP is playing better right now and is quite obviously the future alpha dog, probably sooner than anyone anticipated… just not right now.

There is no reason a rational person whatever is preferences should be denying this.

KP win shares per 48 = .155
Melo win shares per 48 = .129

KP is the alpha TODAY. That is reality. No fixation, just truth.

Thank you, come again!

you really have no clue. Let ignore what KP says himself and bring up a stat that means nothing to players. Then brand it as reality. Chuck's reality is not the rest of the world. the Melo jihad is in full swing today.

My reality is actually is in line with most logical Knicks fans. Most acknowledge what they are witnessing before they very own eyes.

If you guys can't accept that KP is better than Melo NOW, then I don't know what to tell you. It's the truth and hard cold fact. Numbers back this up. League perception back this up. KP just isn't that dude to rock the boat at 20 years of age.

Where did you come up with this nonsense? lol. Talk about talking out of your @$$.

ChuckBuck wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:If you guys can't accept that KP is better than Melo NOW, then I don't know what to tell you.

I agreed with you. It is you who won't accept that.

Then you acknowledge KP as the Alpha Dog of the Knicks, right now?

You don't know what alpha means, do you?

Don't care much about who the "alpha dog" is...and not sure it really matters.

Hard for a guy like KP6 to be an alpha dog, anyway. At his size, he is going to be dependent on others to get him the ball in advantageous situations- especially when he has the hot hand or a mismatch.

At this point in his career, Porzingis is at his best when he moves without the ball to get into good position for a shot, and I'm going to say that right now he is as good as any big man in the game doing this kind of thing- more like a 2/3 than a PF/C. This means cutting to the hoop for a lay-in/dunk, moving to an open spot for a midrange J, setting up early in the post, or putting himself into position for an open 3.

You don't want him doing crossovers on the perimeter, and many of his turnovers come when he is working down low in the lane, where he has not yet learned to protect the ball in the belly of a collapsing zone D, or pass out well while executing his moves for a shot.

The real issue is that his teammates have to trust him enough to look for him in key situations, but he still has to be open.

You've seen some more drives to the basket, and in the Dallas game he had an across the key drive where he passed out to Calderon for an open 3, but at this stage of his career I still feel better with him finding open shots for himself without the ball.

You can see how the Dallas players work with Dirk. He gets open for a second and they find him...but he still depends on teammates for many of his open looks. He hardly dribbles at all during a game, and the movements he makes to get open are also minimal, because he is so adept at using screens/picks.

Right now we have 4 guys I would not mind taking a shot in crunch time- Anthony/KP/AA/and yes, Calderon. Would normally include Gallo, but he's not playing well, now. That is not bad for a team.

I think teammates will eventually start to look for KP6 more often, but this kind of thing takes time, and for about a half of the season Kristaps was not shooting well behind the line. He's up to 36% now, which means that he's been really hot the last 10 games or so, and I would hope that his teammates will take notice of this.

One thing we have learned after only 22 games is that Porzingis is not afraid and won't shy away from the big moment. He will continue to make rookie mistakes, but you get the feeling that he is quite willing to be a go to guy in crunch time, but is also just as satisfied to be the guy who sets the pick for a teammate to get a good shot off.

I don't care...and I know that Porzingis doesn't either, whether or not he is the so called "alpha" player on the team. I know that I just want to see some individual player growth which will go hand in hand with the evolution of the team.

Let the team start winning, and then we can spend our time arguing over player designations we all like to attach to the guys we root for.

I know that when the Knicks won their only titles- which I was old enough to see and understand- I was never thinking about whether Reed or Clyde was the "alpha dog, and when the Pearl came over he and Clyde did not care about this kind of stuff, either.

Seems more prevalent today because of forums, social media, the media, and the selfish mindset some players seem to have, but it is more of a distraction if the guys on a team are thinking team first.

meloanyk wrote:Melo is clearly polarizing but this thread is getting pretty childish. There is an ebb and flow to any sports season so early season sabertrics are rather meaningless. Great to see KP excelling so early as it bodes well for a long great career but Melo and players like Lopez support his present game and allow it to grow. Remove Melo even a struggling Melo without similar scoring skills and it would be detrimental to KP at his stage as he would become the sole focus of D's and he's simply not ready for that despite all the well earned accolades. Sometimes we see flaws of talent much more than attributes and dont really understand the inter connections and consequences of our wishes. Get a player like KD and Melo would certainly be dispensable but right now he supports KP game and growth.

THIS ^

Melo is helping KP develop, in part, by taking attention off him. Remove Melo and defenses will key on KP.

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:If you guys can't accept that KP is better than Melo NOW, then I don't know what to tell you.

I agreed with you. It is you who won't accept that.

Then you acknowledge KP as the Alpha Dog of the Knicks, right now?

You don't know what alpha means, do you?

I'm pretty confident I do. I know Melo is now the Beta.

ChuckBuck wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:If you guys can't accept that KP is better than Melo NOW, then I don't know what to tell you.

I agreed with you. It is you who won't accept that.

Then you acknowledge KP as the Alpha Dog of the Knicks, right now?

You don't know what alpha means, do you?

I'm pretty confident I do. I know Melo is now the Beta.

Fair enough, my mistake that I assumed you actually had a POV and weren't just trolling.

meloanyk wrote:
Same. Had ACL, back in seven months but not really, more like 18-24 months to feel fuly back especially in basketball where recovery of vertical power is as important as horizontal power. It takes time to get your spring back. Some days your knee and spring feels there, other days it doesnt and it is very frustrating because you simply cannot do the things you want. Think this is a underlying issue that frustrates Melo as much as anything. My perspective is that he is working hard while hindered while others see some dog, I see him trying to win while others see a selfish chucker , I see him being a good teammate while others see a self absorbed diva. I think my perspective is closer to the truth

Hard for me to say that I haven't had issues with Anthony in the past. I think he's done a lot of good things for this team and been a leader in many ways...starting with the Puerto Rico gathering.

The issue which still irks me, especially if his play during the first 22 games can be linked to the fact that he is still in a recovery phase, is that he could have shut things down earlier than he did last season, and perhaps he would have been closer to a complete recovery than he is now.

ON THE OTHER HAND, maybe the season and the lottery goes differently if he had pulled himself out earlier- Who knows? The guys I really wanted in the draft were Towns and KP6, although I think Phil might considered OK4, or possibly Russell, in certain situations. At #4, Phil's board meant that we HAD to take Porzingis based on the first 3 picks, and it sounds like we had promised KP we would take him if certain other players were off the board.

So maybe I have to thank Anthony for playing hurt, although it is hard not to think how much more successful we would be at this juncture of the season if Anthony was at 100% and we had Kristaps playing at the level he is at now.

WaltLongmire wrote:
So maybe I have to thank Anthony for playing hurt, although it is hard not to think how much more successful we would be at this juncture of the season if Anthony was at 100% and we had Kristaps playing at the level he is at now.

Therein lies madness.

We might be looking at healthy Melo alongside Kaminsky.

KP is a Knick. The universe is as it should be.

WaltLongmire wrote:Don't care much about who the "alpha dog" is...and not sure it really matters.

Hard for a guy like KP6 to be an alpha dog, anyway. At his size, he is going to be dependent on others to get him the ball in advantageous situations- especially when he has the hot hand or a mismatch.

At this point in his career, Porzingis is at his best when he moves without the ball to get into good position for a shot, and I'm going to say that right now he is as good as any big man in the game doing this kind of thing- more like a 2/3 than a PF/C. This means cutting to the hoop for a lay-in/dunk, moving to an open spot for a midrange J, setting up early in the post, or putting himself into position for an open 3.

You don't want him doing crossovers on the perimeter, and many of his turnovers come when he is working down low in the lane, where he has not yet learned to protect the ball in the belly of a collapsing zone D, or pass out well while executing his moves for a shot.

The real issue is that his teammates have to trust him enough to look for him in key situations, but he still has to be open.

You've seen some more drives to the basket, and in the Dallas game he had an across the key drive where he passed out to Calderon for an open 3, but at this stage of his career I still feel better with him finding open shots for himself without the ball.

You can see how the Dallas players work with Dirk. He gets open for a second and they find him...but he still depends on teammates for many of his open looks. He hardly dribbles at all during a game, and the movements he makes to get open are also minimal, because he is so adept at using screens/picks.

Right now we have 4 guys I would not mind taking a shot in crunch time- Anthony/KP/AA/and yes, Calderon. Would normally include Gallo, but he's not playing well, now. That is not bad for a team.

I think teammates will eventually start to look for KP6 more often, but this kind of thing takes time, and for about a half of the season Kristaps was not shooting well behind the line. He's up to 36% now, which means that he's been really hot the last 10 games or so, and I would hope that his teammates will take notice of this.

One thing we have learned after only 22 games is that Porzingis is not afraid and won't shy away from the big moment. He will continue to make rookie mistakes, but you get the feeling that he is quite willing to be a go to guy in crunch time, but is also just as satisfied to be the guy who sets the pick for a teammate to get a good shot off.

I don't care...and I know that Porzingis doesn't either, whether or not he is the so called "alpha" player on the team. I know that I just want to see some individual player growth which will go hand in hand with the evolution of the team.

Let the team start winning, and then we can spend our time arguing over player designations we all like to attach to the guys we root for.

I know that when the Knicks won their only titles- which I was old enough to see and understand- I was never thinking about whether Reed or Clyde was the "alpha dog, and when the Pearl came over he and Clyde did not care about this kind of stuff, either.

Seems more prevalent today because of forums, social media, the media, and the selfish mindset some players seem to have, but it is more of a distraction if the guys on a team are thinking team first.

Awesome post. SAS has had similar parallels admiral/ducan, then duncan/leonard

this teams needs some wins so we can start getting positive energy

ChuckBuck wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:

bigbasketballs wrote:

ChuckBuck wrote:If you guys can't accept that KP is better than Melo NOW, then I don't know what to tell you.

I agreed with you. It is you who won't accept that.

Then you acknowledge KP as the Alpha Dog of the Knicks, right now?

You don't know what alpha means, do you?

I'm pretty confident I do. I know Melo is now the Beta.