Knicks · Not enough speed or skill (page 1)

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

That deal is nowhere near enough to land carmelo!

BRIGGS wrote:to compete seriously with good teams who try.

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

100 % need a pg which I think will happen by the trade deadline. I don't see Melo waving his no trade . We will never win vs good coached teams with fish as our head coach... One adjustment by the opposition and fish is completely lost... Again this could be from our lack of pg play and once we get a real pg, that should be the final straw for fish if he still can't get it done with a good pg.

fitzfarm wrote:I think if Melo did waive his no trade clause, Phil would jump at moving him. The other way is to make Melo feel unwanted and I don't see Phil creating that atmosphere for Melo.

It would have to be a lucrative package back.

BRIGGS wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think if Melo did waive his no trade clause, Phil would jump at moving him. The other way is to make Melo feel unwanted and I don't see Phil creating that atmosphere for Melo.

It would have to be a lucrative package back.

Yes absolutely, hopefully with future first round picks with a star caliber player back or or a few border line all stars.. And hopfully younger!

BRIGGS wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think if Melo did waive his no trade clause, Phil would jump at moving him. The other way is to make Melo feel unwanted and I don't see Phil creating that atmosphere for Melo.

It would have to be a lucrative package back.

The only chance of getting another star player is Melo being on this team. It's not Melo it is the players around him. You think just by trading Melo we get great teams players back. Look KP is not looking that great and he might be fools gold. We need a point guard who can break down the defense of the other teams. I wonder how long it will take before Briggs will want to trade KP

Papabear wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

fitzfarm wrote:I think if Melo did waive his no trade clause, Phil would jump at moving him. The other way is to make Melo feel unwanted and I don't see Phil creating that atmosphere for Melo.

It would have to be a lucrative package back.

Papabear Says

The only chance of getting another star player is Melo being on this team. It's not Melo it is the players around him. You think just by trading Melo we get great teams players back. Look KP is not looking that great and he might be fools gold. We need a point guard who can break down the defense of the other teams. I wonder how long it will take before Briggs will want to trade KP

If I was able to get Portis in the deal--it would set the stage for the potential best 5-4 for any team in the future. We could then begin the process with a player like Avery Bradley to piece meal NEW AGE guards around these two--we have none of those right now. I dont think we have a plan right now-- were not winning with Carmelo and hes the only chance to facilitate a rebuild.

BRIGGS wrote:to compete seriously with good teams who try.

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

Grant came into the NBA known as a pg that penetrates, and we saw it in SL and preseason. Every since Fisher told him he wanted him to run the offense instead of doing what he does best, he has lost all confidence and direction.

If grant was on Atlanta, he would have all the space in the world to get to the hole, and would be thriving in that offense. In the this triangle, he is force to give up the rock the second he passes half court.

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:to compete seriously with good teams who try.

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

Grant came into the NBA known as a pg that penetrates, and we saw it in SL and preseason. Every since Fisher told him he wanted him to run the offense instead of doing what he does best, he has lost all confidence and direction.

If grant was on Atlanta, he would have all the space in the world to get to the hole, and would be thriving in that offense. In the this triangle, he is force to give up the rock the second he passes half court.

We have some players we can beat the lower echlon teams but this is not set up to win big. Even if we are patient--Carmelo will be old by the time we are good IF he even fits in here?

To me KP at 5--we should sign a Kevin Mchale to work with him---go trade Carmelo now while you can bring back what I believe will still be major league assets--then use the rest of the season to do our best and figure out who stays who goes. I dont see enough guys who will be a on a great team here/

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:to compete seriously with good teams who try.

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

Grant came into the NBA known as a pg that penetrates, and we saw it in SL and preseason. Every since Fisher told him he wanted him to run the offense instead of doing what he does best, he has lost all confidence and direction.

If grant was on Atlanta, he would have all the space in the world to get to the hole, and would be thriving in that offense. In the this triangle, he is force to give up the rock the second he passes half court.

Grant playing poorly is not the system!!! Did Fish make Jerian slip and fall going to the basket or miss a wide open layup or miss jumpers etc ? It's not Fish! Jerian is just facing the reality of the position at this level and he has to learn and improve. He isn't the 1st rookie guard to struggle at this level.

You know NOTHING about the Triangle if you think Jerian's only option is to give up the ball in this offense as soon as he crossed half court. If you really want to discuss all of the aspects of the guard spot in the Triangle lets do that but this isn't about Jerian being dragged down by the offense or the coach. Perfect example is Shved last year who THRIVED in the role. Jerian has to raise his level of play just the same.

BRIGGS wrote:to compete seriously with good teams who try.

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

Your right, "Not enough speed or Skill to compete"..........

Better than last year, but not enough.

I can't say I'm disappointed as was not expecting it. I said early on It would be great if Melo returned and played great, which I think he is. I'd like to see a trade where we can gain assets to build on.

To this I agree.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:to compete seriously with good teams who try.

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

Grant came into the NBA known as a pg that penetrates, and we saw it in SL and preseason. Every since Fisher told him he wanted him to run the offense instead of doing what he does best, he has lost all confidence and direction.

If grant was on Atlanta, he would have all the space in the world to get to the hole, and would be thriving in that offense. In the this triangle, he is force to give up the rock the second he passes half court.

Grant playing poorly is not the system!!! Did Fish make Jerian slip and fall going to the basket or miss a wide open layup or miss jumpers etc ? It's not Fish! Jerian is just facing the reality of the position at this level and he has to learn and improve. He isn't the 1st rookie guard to struggle at this level.

You know NOTHING about the Triangle if you think Jerian's only option is to give up the ball in this offense as soon as he crossed half court. If you really want to discuss all of the aspects of the guard spot in the Triangle lets do that but this isn't about Jerian being dragged down by the offense or the coach. Perfect example is Shved last year who THRIVED in the role. Jerian has to raise his level of play just the same.

nix - I think we're running a really bad offense for this group.

I'm watching and I have no idea what this team is trying to do on offense. We'd be better off with Melo Iso ball.

Yes, we don't have the skill or speed that we'd love to see, but I can't help but think we'd have a better record and better developed group if we were perhaps running a more traditional offense that better incorporated the talents we have.

BRIGGS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:to compete seriously with good teams who try.

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

Grant came into the NBA known as a pg that penetrates, and we saw it in SL and preseason. Every since Fisher told him he wanted him to run the offense instead of doing what he does best, he has lost all confidence and direction.

If grant was on Atlanta, he would have all the space in the world to get to the hole, and would be thriving in that offense. In the this triangle, he is force to give up the rock the second he passes half court.

We have some players we can beat the lower echlon teams but this is not set up to win big. Even if we are patient--Carmelo will be old by the time we are good IF he even fits in here?

To me KP at 5--we should sign a Kevin Mchale to work with him---go trade Carmelo now while you can bring back what I believe will still be major league assets--then use the rest of the season to do our best and figure out who stays who goes. I dont see enough guys who will be a on a great team here/

The problem with your strategy is that it is all built on assumptions. Your telling us we should use Lee Bradley and picks as the main building blocks? So Lee Bradley on the Sixes today would be a championship caliber team? Makes no sense. Why not go with a formula that gave us 54 wins just a couple of years ago?

HofstraBBall wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:to compete seriously with good teams who try.

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

Grant came into the NBA known as a pg that penetrates, and we saw it in SL and preseason. Every since Fisher told him he wanted him to run the offense instead of doing what he does best, he has lost all confidence and direction.

If grant was on Atlanta, he would have all the space in the world to get to the hole, and would be thriving in that offense. In the this triangle, he is force to give up the rock the second he passes half court.

We have some players we can beat the lower echlon teams but this is not set up to win big. Even if we are patient--Carmelo will be old by the time we are good IF he even fits in here?

To me KP at 5--we should sign a Kevin Mchale to work with him---go trade Carmelo now while you can bring back what I believe will still be major league assets--then use the rest of the season to do our best and figure out who stays who goes. I dont see enough guys who will be a on a great team here/

The problem with your strategy is that it is all built on assumptions. Your telling us we should use Lee Bradley and picks as the main building blocks? So Lee Bradley on the Sixes today would be a championship caliber team? Makes no sense. Why not go with a formula that gave us 54 wins just a couple of years ago?

knickscity wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:to compete seriously with good teams who try.

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

Grant came into the NBA known as a pg that penetrates, and we saw it in SL and preseason. Every since Fisher told him he wanted him to run the offense instead of doing what he does best, he has lost all confidence and direction.

If grant was on Atlanta, he would have all the space in the world to get to the hole, and would be thriving in that offense. In the this triangle, he is force to give up the rock the second he passes half court.

We have some players we can beat the lower echlon teams but this is not set up to win big. Even if we are patient--Carmelo will be old by the time we are good IF he even fits in here?

To me KP at 5--we should sign a Kevin Mchale to work with him---go trade Carmelo now while you can bring back what I believe will still be major league assets--then use the rest of the season to do our best and figure out who stays who goes. I dont see enough guys who will be a on a great team here/

The problem with your strategy is that it is all built on assumptions. Your telling us we should use Lee Bradley and picks as the main building blocks? So Lee Bradley on the Sixes today would be a championship caliber team? Makes no sense. Why not go with a formula that gave us 54 wins just a couple of years ago?

I think he's really eyeing those BK #1 picks. Depending on the protections those might be very nice.

I was thinking 3 way and the assets were Portis Bradley and those two Brooklyn picks. Id be happy with that. Can a 3 way trade be made? Chicago Boston NY?

BRIGGS wrote:

knickscity wrote:

HofstraBBall wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:to compete seriously with good teams who try.

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

Grant came into the NBA known as a pg that penetrates, and we saw it in SL and preseason. Every since Fisher told him he wanted him to run the offense instead of doing what he does best, he has lost all confidence and direction.

If grant was on Atlanta, he would have all the space in the world to get to the hole, and would be thriving in that offense. In the this triangle, he is force to give up the rock the second he passes half court.

We have some players we can beat the lower echlon teams but this is not set up to win big. Even if we are patient--Carmelo will be old by the time we are good IF he even fits in here?

To me KP at 5--we should sign a Kevin Mchale to work with him---go trade Carmelo now while you can bring back what I believe will still be major league assets--then use the rest of the season to do our best and figure out who stays who goes. I dont see enough guys who will be a on a great team here/

The problem with your strategy is that it is all built on assumptions. Your telling us we should use Lee Bradley and picks as the main building blocks? So Lee Bradley on the Sixes today would be a championship caliber team? Makes no sense. Why not go with a formula that gave us 54 wins just a couple of years ago?

I think he's really eyeing those BK #1 picks. Depending on the protections those might be very nice.

I was thinking 3 way and the assets were Portis Bradley and those two Brooklyn picks. Id be happy with that. Can a 3 way trade be made? Chicago Boston NY?

mreinman wrote:didn't we just compete with cleveland?

That deal is nowhere near enough to land carmelo!

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:to compete seriously with good teams who try.

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

Grant came into the NBA known as a pg that penetrates, and we saw it in SL and preseason. Every since Fisher told him he wanted him to run the offense instead of doing what he does best, he has lost all confidence and direction.

If grant was on Atlanta, he would have all the space in the world to get to the hole, and would be thriving in that offense. In the this triangle, he is force to give up the rock the second he passes half court.

Grant playing poorly is not the system!!! Did Fish make Jerian slip and fall going to the basket or miss a wide open layup or miss jumpers etc ? It's not Fish! Jerian is just facing the reality of the position at this level and he has to learn and improve. He isn't the 1st rookie guard to struggle at this level.

You know NOTHING about the Triangle if you think Jerian's only option is to give up the ball in this offense as soon as he crossed half court. If you really want to discuss all of the aspects of the guard spot in the Triangle lets do that but this isn't about Jerian being dragged down by the offense or the coach. Perfect example is Shved last year who THRIVED in the role. Jerian has to raise his level of play just the same.

Dude we run a sloppy " were I'm suppose to be" triangle, or some simplistic version of it. I have heard shaq, kobe, and rick fox slam the knicks for thinking their running the triangle.

The stupidest part, by the time the 2nd half (especially the 4th qtr) we still run the same exact thing, and the defense has fully adjusted, and we have no plan B.

Shved ain't grant, so why the heck are you comparing the 2. Do you compare Gary payton to John Stockton, cmon nix, your smarter than that.

Fisher and his staff have no creativity and will stick to this plan until their Blue and Purple in the face.

Were down 10 and walking the ball up court, were turning the ball over and running the same play, were not getting to the line enough. What changes are they making to address these issues, not to mention the inconsistent to rotation.

But all you keep saying is give him time to figure it out, thats going to be to late

"You have to have players that can run a system like that. I did it in 2004 and it was not for me. I was used to coming off pick and rolls I couldn't do it. I had to go to this spot, I had to backdoor this way. And if you break down the play, Phil would be up screaming on you."

Payton made it clear the difference is that the great Phil Jackson teams had the personnel to do those things, and this Knicks team does not.

"Michael Jordan and Scottie Pippen had that team. Shaq and Kobe had that team. They had players who come off and make big plays like that. (The Knicks) don't have the players to do that."

So now you're into a situation where you wonder if the Knicks should run the triangle. Is it better to struggle so you know who can and can't run the system? (Spoiler alert: none of them can.) Or would it be better to run some other things so that this team could at least make a run at being semi-competitive? Payton talked about how far off they are, and that the real key here is that the players aren't good, especially in the triangle.

"I think it takes that long to learn it," Paytons said Phil Jackson has never taken a job that doesn't have a lot of good basketball players. That's why he didn't come and take this job, he took the president job. He's got to have a team that he can be successful with. And this team can't be successful, especially not with the triangle.

"They have to get players, and they have to get the players at the right positions. You have to have a big man who's going to do what he's going to do, a shooter, and the superstar. You have the superstar. But he's got to play just like Michael Jordan did, and just like Kobe Bryant did when they were in this system."

The system is clearly the issue when you dont have the personnel for it.

nixluva wrote:

knicks1248 wrote:

BRIGGS wrote:to compete seriously with good teams who try.

Also besides KP we dont have another young player I can truly see developing into a high quality NBA player. I dont think Grant is fast enough skilled enough nor does he play with outstanding energy.

I would trade Carmelo in the RIGHT trade i.e something like trading Carmelo to Chicago--Rose and Noah to Boston and we get Portis Lee Bradley and both Brooklyn #1's.

Grant came into the NBA known as a pg that penetrates, and we saw it in SL and preseason. Every since Fisher told him he wanted him to run the offense instead of doing what he does best, he has lost all confidence and direction.

If grant was on Atlanta, he would have all the space in the world to get to the hole, and would be thriving in that offense. In the this triangle, he is force to give up the rock the second he passes half court.

Grant playing poorly is not the system!!! Did Fish make Jerian slip and fall going to the basket or miss a wide open layup or miss jumpers etc ? It's not Fish! Jerian is just facing the reality of the position at this level and he has to learn and improve. He isn't the 1st rookie guard to struggle at this level.

You know NOTHING about the Triangle if you think Jerian's only option is to give up the ball in this offense as soon as he crossed half court. If you really want to discuss all of the aspects of the guard spot in the Triangle lets do that but this isn't about Jerian being dragged down by the offense or the coach. Perfect example is Shved last year who THRIVED in the role. Jerian has to raise his level of play just the same.

Again bashing without a real response ... I'm sure you know all about the triangle ...But please I would love to hear your concept on it.. What shved did on the Knicks had nothing to do with the triangle he was freelanceing from the perimeter and driving to the hoop to break down the defense... As a matter of fact Phil didn't sign him because of $ and he really went against the pure triangle concept..

I loved shved he was great for us having a pg who could do what shved could do would work wonders for this team. Shved could get us away from playing such systematic repetitive basketball... Driving and breaking down the defense is something jerian can do for us too, but he needs time he's just a rookie... I still think fish is doing the kid wrong by not getting him the proper pt.

I mean what is Jose doing that grant isn't, it sure isn't Jose's defense keeping him in games, or his ability to find the open man or drive and break down the defense. Jose can hit a open shot something grant can't do right now.but hitting open jumpers is what any back up 2 guard should do and that's exactly what Jose should be at this point in his career.

Has fish toyed with grant and his confidance yes I don't think there is any argument there. Just look at how grant was doing with the second unit to start the season, he was a spark and pushing the tempo with dwill. Why have we stopped doing that ? Why have we turned into the slowest team in the league when the game is evolving into a speed ball tempo with lots of threes and drives... Grant should be out there more pushing the tempo until we get a serious upgrade at pg. jose should be regulated to a backup 2 guard hitting his open j's.