Knicks · Joakim + Triangle = ??? (page 1)
JOAKIM NOAH DESERVES A LOUDER GOODBYE THAN THIS
February 3, 2016
John WilmesJoakim Noah hopes to be back with the Chicago Bulls next season. That is what he said, anyway, when recently asked about his impending free agency, and despite all logic running to the contrary, it's not hard to believe him. Noah is one of the most sincere, loyal, hard-working people in the NBA, and would probably like nothing more than to finish his career in a city that's become a home for him.
It's all that good stuff about Noah that has made his struggles the past two years so hard to watch. Shortly after the season of a lifetime, in which he was both fourth in MVP voting and the league's Defensive Player of the Year, Noah had arthroscopic knee surgery, and the Bulls signed Pau Gasol away from the Lakers. Noah came back to find a crowded frontcourt and no clear role. Since spring of 2014, the center has languished, and his status as icon in Chicago has become more honorary than actual. He was an admirable, galvanizing player, and then he was just kind of an idea, a sort of a ghost of himself.
What Noah wants this summer and what will happen are likely to be different tales. Like Kevin Garnett, the man whose ethic he emulated (only to be "crushed" by KG saying "Fuck you" to him on the court later in life), Noah is too intensely present for the types of free agency long views that define the modern NBA—the kind that have us skipping the steps of Kevin Durant's remaining games with the Oklahoma City Thunder and discussing instead how he'll fit in Golden State, or Boston, or Washington, or wherever. When Noah says that he wants to stay where he is and be an emotionally significant presence for his team despite undergoing season-ending shoulder injury in January, he means it.
But Noah will be banged up and 31 when he hits the market, and the mid-build Bulls will be only too happy to lowball him and watch him walk to a larger role and a bigger payday—hopefully amicably—as opposed to recommitting to a culture they began phasing out when they fired head coach Tom Thibodeau last offseason. Noah's zenith came during one of the multiple improbable campaigns that Thibodeau waged, as the team compiled unreasonable win tallies despite injuries to then-franchise centerpiece Derrick Rose. While Noah, like the rest of the Bulls, may have grown tired of Thibodeau's ceaseless work-first truisms, it's hard to imagine a more symbiotic player-coach relationship than what Jo and Tom had going.
Together, the two defined an era of Chicago basketball that was brilliant in its defiance of expectations; year after year, these teams pulled glory from a trough of bad bodies, and despite offensive firepower that can be best described as bullshit. Noah became a volcanic, do-everything star with these teams, a point center who almost single-handedly made up for all the Bulls' roster deficiencies through exertion and crazed will. He gobbled up rebounds in fits of screaming improbability, blew up pick-and-rolls, and acted as a clever passing nexus for his team on the offensive elbow, creating scoring opportunities where there shouldn't have been any. Noah became a totem for Bulls fans; he channeled the city's defiant id when he said, to a LeBron James who had just dunked on him, "Fuck you, you still a bitch though."
Since hiring Fred Hoiberg to replace Thibodeau, however, the Bulls haven't exactly been polishing Noah's throne. He was ousted from the starting lineup before the season—a move which Hoiberg falsely (and weirdly) claimed that Noah had not only agreed to but even suggested himself—in favor of sophomore forward Nikola Mirotic, who has played a collective month or two of quality NBA basketball. Chicago drafted Bobby Portis, a rookie who will figure prominently in the future of the team's frontcourt. They decided that Noah, not Gasol, was the veteran whose pride they were willing to offend.
Noah hasn't been happy with the new order of the Bulls, and his trademark ebullience was missing from a locker room it once lit up. To call the difference noticeable is to engage in over-the-top understatement. To watch Noah search within Hoiberg's sets for a function was at times cringeworthy, as he scrambled between defenders in an effort to set an extra screen seemingly every time the ball moved.
Perhaps the saddest truth in the oncoming breakup between Noah and his team is that the Bulls appear to be better without him. Mirotic was eventually moved back to the bench, but it was to make room for Taj Gibson in the starting lineup. And since the early emergence of Portis has made the Bulls' big man rotation even more strained, losing Joakim's body in the five-man logjam has made the team more cohesive and better able to realize Hoiberg's principles.
This is how culture change happens in the NBA. Beloved players have their personalities shaved down to fit into narrower concepts, and their emotional significance becomes secondary to more utilitarian goals. As much as Noah will be missed if he leaves the Bulls, it's hard not to hope he ends up with an organization more eager to appreciate his singular take on basketball, however much it fits into morphing NBA paradigms. The thought of him one day having a gleeful vintage revenge performance at the United Center, in a rival jersey, is so Joakim Noah that it feels almost like an inevitability. No Bulls fan would boo it.
Of course, Noah could land back in Chicago. Gasol is also eyeing free agency, with an opt-out clause in his contract and a chance to get one big contract before he retires. Aside from Hoiberg, Mirotic, Portis, and new centerpiece Jimmy Butler, little is clear about the future for Chicago; ruling out a place in it for Noah may be hasty. But if the center does overextend himself to stay put, it will be a paradoxical disappointment to a lot of Joakim-first fans. Those who love him most just want to set him free, and to watch him enjoy a second act in a career that deserves at least three.
Anything over mMle for the Knicks would be silly unless they make some kind of super move.
ActionJackson wrote:The Bulls dont want him, he & Melo are friends, plus he's from the Big Apple. I say if he's healthy & the price is right, let's take a gamble cause i think he's a perfect fit.JOAKIM NOAH DESERVES A LOUDER GOODBYE THAN THIS
February 3, 2016
John WilmesJoakim Noah hopes to be back with the Chicago Bulls next season. That is what he said, anyway, when recently asked about his impending free agency, and despite all logic running to the contrary, it's not hard to believe him. Noah is one of the most sincere, loyal, hard-working people in the NBA, and would probably like nothing more than to finish his career in a city that's become a home for him.
It's all that good stuff about Noah that has made his struggles the past two years so hard to watch. Shortly after the season of a lifetime, in which he was both fourth in MVP voting and the league's Defensive Player of the Year, Noah had arthroscopic knee surgery, and the Bulls signed Pau Gasol away from the Lakers. Noah came back to find a crowded frontcourt and no clear role. Since spring of 2014, the center has languished, and his status as icon in Chicago has become more honorary than actual. He was an admirable, galvanizing player, and then he was just kind of an idea, a sort of a ghost of himself.
What Noah wants this summer and what will happen are likely to be different tales. Like Kevin Garnett, the man whose ethic he emulated (only to be "crushed" by KG saying "Fuck you" to him on the court later in life), Noah is too intensely present for the types of free agency long views that define the modern NBA—the kind that have us skipping the steps of Kevin Durant's remaining games with the Oklahoma City Thunder and discussing instead how he'll fit in Golden State, or Boston, or Washington, or wherever. When Noah says that he wants to stay where he is and be an emotionally significant presence for his team despite undergoing season-ending shoulder injury in January, he means it.
But Noah will be banged up and 31 when he hits the market, and the mid-build Bulls will be only too happy to lowball him and watch him walk to a larger role and a bigger payday—hopefully amicably—as opposed to recommitting to a culture they began phasing out when they fired head coach Tom Thibodeau last offseason. Noah's zenith came during one of the multiple improbable campaigns that Thibodeau waged, as the team compiled unreasonable win tallies despite injuries to then-franchise centerpiece Derrick Rose. While Noah, like the rest of the Bulls, may have grown tired of Thibodeau's ceaseless work-first truisms, it's hard to imagine a more symbiotic player-coach relationship than what Jo and Tom had going.
Together, the two defined an era of Chicago basketball that was brilliant in its defiance of expectations; year after year, these teams pulled glory from a trough of bad bodies, and despite offensive firepower that can be best described as bullshit. Noah became a volcanic, do-everything star with these teams, a point center who almost single-handedly made up for all the Bulls' roster deficiencies through exertion and crazed will. He gobbled up rebounds in fits of screaming improbability, blew up pick-and-rolls, and acted as a clever passing nexus for his team on the offensive elbow, creating scoring opportunities where there shouldn't have been any. Noah became a totem for Bulls fans; he channeled the city's defiant id when he said, to a LeBron James who had just dunked on him, "Fuck you, you still a bitch though."
Since hiring Fred Hoiberg to replace Thibodeau, however, the Bulls haven't exactly been polishing Noah's throne. He was ousted from the starting lineup before the season—a move which Hoiberg falsely (and weirdly) claimed that Noah had not only agreed to but even suggested himself—in favor of sophomore forward Nikola Mirotic, who has played a collective month or two of quality NBA basketball. Chicago drafted Bobby Portis, a rookie who will figure prominently in the future of the team's frontcourt. They decided that Noah, not Gasol, was the veteran whose pride they were willing to offend.
Noah hasn't been happy with the new order of the Bulls, and his trademark ebullience was missing from a locker room it once lit up. To call the difference noticeable is to engage in over-the-top understatement. To watch Noah search within Hoiberg's sets for a function was at times cringeworthy, as he scrambled between defenders in an effort to set an extra screen seemingly every time the ball moved.
Perhaps the saddest truth in the oncoming breakup between Noah and his team is that the Bulls appear to be better without him. Mirotic was eventually moved back to the bench, but it was to make room for Taj Gibson in the starting lineup. And since the early emergence of Portis has made the Bulls' big man rotation even more strained, losing Joakim's body in the five-man logjam has made the team more cohesive and better able to realize Hoiberg's principles.
This is how culture change happens in the NBA. Beloved players have their personalities shaved down to fit into narrower concepts, and their emotional significance becomes secondary to more utilitarian goals. As much as Noah will be missed if he leaves the Bulls, it's hard not to hope he ends up with an organization more eager to appreciate his singular take on basketball, however much it fits into morphing NBA paradigms. The thought of him one day having a gleeful vintage revenge performance at the United Center, in a rival jersey, is so Joakim Noah that it feels almost like an inevitability. No Bulls fan would boo it.
Of course, Noah could land back in Chicago. Gasol is also eyeing free agency, with an opt-out clause in his contract and a chance to get one big contract before he retires. Aside from Hoiberg, Mirotic, Portis, and new centerpiece Jimmy Butler, little is clear about the future for Chicago; ruling out a place in it for Noah may be hasty. But if the center does overextend himself to stay put, it will be a paradoxical disappointment to a lot of Joakim-first fans. Those who love him most just want to set him free, and to watch him enjoy a second act in a career that deserves at least three.
I don't know how any team couldn't want a guy like J.Noah. He play hard every night all game long and plays for his teammates. I would love him in a Knicks jersey but it's all about the price.
NO THANKS! lol
callmened wrote:Joakim + Triangle = injured knees + washed up bodyNO THANKS! lol
Not that i ever want an injured player who cant contribute but Noah's game doesn't seem like it's based on overwhelming people with athleticism. His fiery leadership,intelligence passing the ball in the high post or taking that little awkward lookimg but suprisingly effective jumper from 12-15 ft, are skills that should still be good after he come back and for another few years. #oldschoolwarrior
yellowboy90 wrote:It's really all about price. I can't even to begin to guess what the league thinks about Noah when they are moving away from the traditional center and Noah is a non-scoring threat who is always banged up. To me he might be a MLE - mMLE type guy. I think for the knicks he would be nice because of his passing and leadership. He would have his hands on the ball like he did when Butler was up and coming and Rose was hurt. That might appeal to him. Then again big man depth will be an issue too. KP, Lopez, O'Quinn, Hernangomez(possibly). hat's a lot of bodies. I am not really penciling in H-gomez as a big time contributor anyway so maybe he becomes the 1st big off the bench like what they expected from Seraphin.Anything over mMle for the Knicks would be silly unless they make some kind of super move.
For the right price. We may have 'depth', but we kinda lack quality.
I could see him being the first big off the bench, with KOQ in a similar role to what he has now. That gives you 3 solid bigs to rotate through the 4 & 5 slots.
ActionJackson wrote:callmened wrote:Joakim + Triangle = injured knees + washed up bodyNO THANKS! lol
Not that i ever want an injured player who cant contribute but Noah's game doesn't seem like it's based on overwhelming people with athleticism. His fiery leadership,intelligence passing the ball in the high post or taking that little awkward lookimg but suprisingly effective jumper from 12-15 ft, are skills that should still be good after he come back and for another few years. #oldschoolwarrior
I love his intensity!! But the reality this guy is washed up and injury prone. Plus he wants alot of money
mreinman wrote:joakim of a few years ago was my fav player in the league. Would not take a chance on broken joakim.
What if we could get him on a team friendly deal??
callmened wrote:ActionJackson wrote:callmened wrote:Joakim + Triangle = injured knees + washed up bodyNO THANKS! lol
Not that i ever want an injured player who cant contribute but Noah's game doesn't seem like it's based on overwhelming people with athleticism. His fiery leadership,intelligence passing the ball in the high post or taking that little awkward lookimg but suprisingly effective jumper from 12-15 ft, are skills that should still be good after he come back and for another few years. #oldschoolwarrior
I love his intensity!! But the reality this guy is washed up and injury prone. Plus he wants alot of money
The reality is not that he's washed but it is that he's injury prone.
newyorker4ever wrote:callmened wrote:ActionJackson wrote:callmened wrote:Joakim + Triangle = injured knees + washed up bodyNO THANKS! lol
Not that i ever want an injured player who cant contribute but Noah's game doesn't seem like it's based on overwhelming people with athleticism. His fiery leadership,intelligence passing the ball in the high post or taking that little awkward lookimg but suprisingly effective jumper from 12-15 ft, are skills that should still be good after he come back and for another few years. #oldschoolwarrior
I love his intensity!! But the reality this guy is washed up and injury prone. Plus he wants alot of money
The reality is not that he's washed but it is that he's injury prone.
FAIR! my overall sentiment is stay away from this guy. lol
newyorker4ever wrote:mreinman wrote:joakim of a few years ago was my fav player in the league. Would not take a chance on broken joakim.What if we could get him on a team friendly deal??
in a heartbeat. Good to just have a guy on the bench even if he is injured.
callmened wrote:i would nt mind signing him to a minimum contract. anything higher than 5 mill is a waste for a team rebuilding
If we could get him with a team friendly deal and then just minimize his minutes some to take care of his body he'd be a huge help. I think sometimes people only look at stats for what a player can bring to help a team but a guy like Noah brings so much more with his energy and when i player goes down to the ground he's the first one there to pick him up and how he's all about his team no matter what he's doing. These things help a lot and you add all that to what he can bring with his defense and his rebounding and he does have a 12-15 foot shot that he can knock down. I'd love to have him but of course would have to be the right deal.
mreinman wrote:he won't be that cheap. Probably 6-8 million x 3
Who will pay him that much? He doesn't strike me as someone who wants to be on a rebuilding team. Will LAC have enough money? Doc is the type of GM that will spend money on him.
yellowboy90 wrote:mreinman wrote:he won't be that cheap. Probably 6-8 million x 3Who will pay him that much? He doesn't strike me as someone who wants to be on a rebuilding team. Will LAC have enough money? Doc is the type of GM that will spend money on him.
what do you think that he gets paid?
mreinman wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:mreinman wrote:he won't be that cheap. Probably 6-8 million x 3Who will pay him that much? He doesn't strike me as someone who wants to be on a rebuilding team. Will LAC have enough money? Doc is the type of GM that will spend money on him.
what do you think that he gets paid?
I really can't grasp a market price for him. His injuries issues and lack off scoring could turn a lot of contending teams off. I need to look at teams salaries for next year and the rosters.