Knicks · The problem is the Triangle. (page 3)
crzymdups wrote:What if the Triangle prevents us from adding good guards? Maybe guards won't want to come play in a complicated system where they have to give up the ball and run complicated cuts to even have a chance at getting the ball back?the bold is not fair. The guards we have are stop gap. Unless you want to point to Grant's stuggles fine, but I cant for a minute believe or accept that AA and Calderon are the guards he envisioned for this team. They are the best available.If the Triangle is so advanced, why did DeRozan say the Raptors knew what to look for and how to get us out of our sets?
I agree the guards are a problem - but again - these are guards Phil handpicked because he thought they'd be good fits to run the Triangle. Jose was Phil's first trade target. Afflalo was the first guy he signed when he had cap room.
So these are the guards he wanted running this system. Maybe the problem is trying to get guys who you think look right for your system instead of trying to just get the best players and tweak your system for those players.
The NBA is a player's league. The star players are so good that systems should be tweaked to accomodate what the players do well. That's what the Warriors have done, it's what the Cavs have done, etc.
I don't have anything against system basketball. UNLESS system basketball is preventing you from targeting the best players. That's why I got frustrated with D'Antoni and why it is why it is frustrating with Phil.
You can't say that the problem is just the backcourt - it's not like Phil inherited these guards. He traded for Jose, he signed Afflalo as his first big free agent, he traded for Jerian Grant, he signed and developed Galloway (probably our best guard) from the D-League.
These are, ostensibly, the guards Phil WANTS running his system.
And that is the big picture problem. This is what Phil thought would work. And he was very very wrong.
You know Atl wanted Kris Middleton for Teague? I mean you want a PG give me your BEST young player. Its nuts. No... I don't buy that man. It would have been nice to have traded Shump early when there was high value, etc... but despite the early good record this is still an accumulate talent stage. There is no way this is the backcourt Phil envisioned... I cant accept that.
Of course what FA is coming here to play under Rambis? Ouch 
I do know that it supposedly gives players some freedom to look for open shots, but I see many of our guys passing up open shots on a regular basis- KP...Gallo...Grant...Thomas...Lopez (he's been more aggressive recently. Guys have to be moving with the intent of creating an open shot for themselves...and there are many times that I simply don't see this on the court.
I also feel that our spacing is terrible, although this is another thing I'm no expert on. Just seems to me that we are bunched up to often, and we get hurt when other teams double our guys with the ball or make poor entry passes.
I like Lopez as a scorer these days...but he is not a great facilitator down low, although I don't see a lot of our guys looking to get open when our guys in the post have the ball.
Except for the inconsistent Grant, I don't see our guards as being great facilitators, either. Calderon seems slower than usual, and for me, this goes to the fact that he has never been the kind of workout warrior an older guy like Prigioni seems to be as an older player...and for anyone over 30 in this league, this has to be considered a necessity if you are going to compete at an elite level. Gallo is better off as a shooting guard, and should not be running an offense on a regular basis.
Toronto is a very good defensive team, and this has to be taken into consideration. We were very competent against a poor Minnesota D the other day. Have to conclude that our offensive players need to adapt better to any defensive changes made by an opponent and not be predictable in our movements and decision making.
Time to play Grant more often to see what he can do. Give him 30MPG no matter how he plays. KP also needs to be encouraged to assert himself more on offense, and he has to know he's being depended on to score.
You see flashes of what KP can do when he's aggressive. There are many games where he suddenly decides to be assertive and scores a bunch of points in a short period of time. He has to be taking about 15-20 shots/game, and his teammates have to get him the ball in spots where he can score.
Training wheels are not options for Grant an KP at this point in the season. Time to play for the future.
crzymdups wrote:What if the Triangle prevents us from adding good guards? Maybe guards won't want to come play in a complicated system where they have to give up the ball and run complicated cuts to even have a chance at getting the ball back?If the Triangle is so advanced, why did DeRozan say the Raptors knew what to look for and how to get us out of our sets?
I agree the guards are a problem - but again - these are guards Phil handpicked because he thought they'd be good fits to run the Triangle. Jose was Phil's first trade target. Afflalo was the first guy he signed when he had cap room.
So these are the guards he wanted running this system. Maybe the problem is trying to get guys who you think look right for your system instead of trying to just get the best players and tweak your system for those players.
The NBA is a player's league. The star players are so good that systems should be tweaked to accomodate what the players do well. That's what the Warriors have done, it's what the Cavs have done, etc.
I don't have anything against system basketball. UNLESS system basketball is preventing you from targeting the best players. That's why I got frustrated with D'Antoni and why it is why it is frustrating with Phil.
You can't say that the problem is just the backcourt - it's not like Phil inherited these guards. He traded for Jose, he signed Afflalo as his first big free agent, he traded for Jerian Grant, he signed and developed Galloway (probably our best guard) from the D-League.
These are, ostensibly, the guards Phil WANTS running his system.And that is the big picture problem. This is what Phil thought would work. And he was very very wrong.
There is no doubt that Phil brought these players to this team but to suggest that they are his prime targets is also not accurate. Jose sucks, I don't know if he's just fallen off or what. Phil traded for him but that had as much to do with Chandler and gun toting fat boy, Shumpert and JR. Jose is a mentor type and it looks like his legs are shot. AA is a professional but not a starter any more, last option at $8M who wanted to be in NY.
It's weird to me to see GS as an example franchise that is doing something right all along. Since drafting Curry, it took them 4 seasons before getting to .500 and another 2 after that before they found a good "system" - players and coaches and match offense/defense before they really took off.
These things aren't done over night or even in 1 offseason. The Knicks guards suck ass, their front line does not. AA, Jose, and even Gallo are short term guys and not hand-picked long term people.
WaltLongmire wrote:I have no pretension of possessing a deep understanding of the Triangle offense.exactly... I suspect they give it a few more games but this 100%I do know that it supposedly gives players some freedom to look for open shots, but I see many of our guys passing up open shots on a regular basis- KP...Gallo...Grant...Thomas...Lopez (he's been more aggressive recently. Guys have to be moving with the intent of creating an open shot for themselves...and there are many times that I simply don't see this on the court.
I also feel that our spacing is terrible, although this is another thing I'm no expert on. Just seems to me that we are bunched up to often, and we get hurt when other teams double our guys with the ball or make poor entry passes.
I like Lopez as a scorer these days...but he is not a great facilitator down low, although I don't see a lot of our guys looking to get open when our guys in the post have the ball.
Except for the inconsistent Grant, I don't see our guards as being great facilitators, either. Calderon seems slower than usual, and for me, this goes to the fact that he has never been the kind of workout warrior an older guy like Prigioni seems to be as an older player...and for anyone over 30 in this league, this has to be considered a necessity if you are going to compete at an elite level. Gallo is better off as a shooting guard, and should not be running an offense on a regular basis.
Toronto is a very good defensive team, and this has to be taken into consideration. We were very competent against a poor Minnesota D the other day. Have to conclude that our offensive players need to adapt better to any defensive changes made by an opponent and not be predictable in our movements and decision making.
Time to play Grant more often to see what he can do. Give him 30MPG no matter how he plays. KP also needs to be encouraged to assert himself more on offense, and he has to know he's being depended on to score.You see flashes of what KP can do when he's aggressive. There are many games where he suddenly decides to be assertive and scores a bunch of points in a short period of time. He has to be taking about 15-20 shots/game, and his teammates have to get him the ball in spots where he can score.
Training wheels are not options for Grant an KP at this point in the season. Time to play for the future.
martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:What if the Triangle prevents us from adding good guards? Maybe guards won't want to come play in a complicated system where they have to give up the ball and run complicated cuts to even have a chance at getting the ball back?If the Triangle is so advanced, why did DeRozan say the Raptors knew what to look for and how to get us out of our sets?
I agree the guards are a problem - but again - these are guards Phil handpicked because he thought they'd be good fits to run the Triangle. Jose was Phil's first trade target. Afflalo was the first guy he signed when he had cap room.
So these are the guards he wanted running this system. Maybe the problem is trying to get guys who you think look right for your system instead of trying to just get the best players and tweak your system for those players.
The NBA is a player's league. The star players are so good that systems should be tweaked to accomodate what the players do well. That's what the Warriors have done, it's what the Cavs have done, etc.
I don't have anything against system basketball. UNLESS system basketball is preventing you from targeting the best players. That's why I got frustrated with D'Antoni and why it is why it is frustrating with Phil.
You can't say that the problem is just the backcourt - it's not like Phil inherited these guards. He traded for Jose, he signed Afflalo as his first big free agent, he traded for Jerian Grant, he signed and developed Galloway (probably our best guard) from the D-League.
These are, ostensibly, the guards Phil WANTS running his system.And that is the big picture problem. This is what Phil thought would work. And he was very very wrong.
There is no doubt that Phil brought these players to this team but to suggest that they are his prime targets is also not accurate. Jose sucks, I don't know if he's just fallen off or what. Phil traded for him but that had as much to do with Chandler and gun toting fat boy, Shumpert and JR. Jose is a mentor type and it looks like his legs are shot. AA is a professional but not a starter any more, last option at $8M who wanted to be in NY.
It's weird to me to see GS as an example franchise that is doing something right all along. Since drafting Curry, it took them 4 seasons before getting to .500 and another 2 after that before they found a good "system" - players and coaches and match offense/defense before they really took off.
These things aren't done over night or even in 1 offseason. The Knicks guards suck ass, their front line does not. AA, Jose, and even Gallo are short term guys and not hand-picked long term people.
Yup Yup. We no have 3 out of 5 starting spots filled. We not just need a starting backcourt.
martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:What if the Triangle prevents us from adding good guards? Maybe guards won't want to come play in a complicated system where they have to give up the ball and run complicated cuts to even have a chance at getting the ball back?If the Triangle is so advanced, why did DeRozan say the Raptors knew what to look for and how to get us out of our sets?
I agree the guards are a problem - but again - these are guards Phil handpicked because he thought they'd be good fits to run the Triangle. Jose was Phil's first trade target. Afflalo was the first guy he signed when he had cap room.
So these are the guards he wanted running this system. Maybe the problem is trying to get guys who you think look right for your system instead of trying to just get the best players and tweak your system for those players.
The NBA is a player's league. The star players are so good that systems should be tweaked to accomodate what the players do well. That's what the Warriors have done, it's what the Cavs have done, etc.
I don't have anything against system basketball. UNLESS system basketball is preventing you from targeting the best players. That's why I got frustrated with D'Antoni and why it is why it is frustrating with Phil.
You can't say that the problem is just the backcourt - it's not like Phil inherited these guards. He traded for Jose, he signed Afflalo as his first big free agent, he traded for Jerian Grant, he signed and developed Galloway (probably our best guard) from the D-League.
These are, ostensibly, the guards Phil WANTS running his system.And that is the big picture problem. This is what Phil thought would work. And he was very very wrong.
There is no doubt that Phil brought these players to this team but to suggest that they are his prime targets is also not accurate. Jose sucks, I don't know if he's just fallen off or what. Phil traded for him but that had as much to do with Chandler and gun toting fat boy, Shumpert and JR. Jose is a mentor type and it looks like his legs are shot. AA is a professional but not a starter any more, last option at $8M who wanted to be in NY.
It's weird to me to see GS as an example franchise that is doing something right all along. Since drafting Curry, it took them 4 seasons before getting to .500 and another 2 after that before they found a good "system" - players and coaches and match offense/defense before they really took off.
These things aren't done over night or even in 1 offseason. The Knicks guards suck ass, their front line does not. AA, Jose, and even Gallo are short term guys and not hand-picked long term people.
I agree patience is the move. Firing Fisher felt like a blow to that movement though. Fisher is clearly a better coach than Rambis. I guess his off court problems demanded it? It felt like an overreaction to a losing streak that was mainly brought on by timing of a Melo rolled ankle, Lance knee problem, Jose whatever old problem, and running into GSW, LAC and a few other strong teams.
I do worry about what kind of guards we intend to bring in though. Are we going to continue to try to force guards into this system?
The part I bolded I agree with completely - GSW had their core players first - Curry, Klay, Draymond, Barnes and THEN found a system second. They tailored that system to their players. Mark Jackson had some success with them, because they're a talented bunch - but the system he was forcing them into didn't make sense for their talent. They won like 54 games and got bounced in the playoffs. Enter Kerr - tailors the system to the talent, they take off.
I just think starting with the system is kind of backwards. Especially when it limits the kind of talent you can bring in.
I also hate that it severely limits our coaching search.
Do you think the Triangle is the best system for Melo? I could honestly really see him thriving with a Thibs type grind it out coach.
IF Thibs and Conley are the best moves for the Knicks and it means letting go of some of the Triangle (remember Thibs RUNS the Triangle 25%+ of the time in Chicago) - will Phil be willing to cast his ego a side a bit and bring in the most talented players and coach he can bring in?
crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:What if the Triangle prevents us from adding good guards? Maybe guards won't want to come play in a complicated system where they have to give up the ball and run complicated cuts to even have a chance at getting the ball back?If the Triangle is so advanced, why did DeRozan say the Raptors knew what to look for and how to get us out of our sets?
I agree the guards are a problem - but again - these are guards Phil handpicked because he thought they'd be good fits to run the Triangle. Jose was Phil's first trade target. Afflalo was the first guy he signed when he had cap room.
So these are the guards he wanted running this system. Maybe the problem is trying to get guys who you think look right for your system instead of trying to just get the best players and tweak your system for those players.
The NBA is a player's league. The star players are so good that systems should be tweaked to accomodate what the players do well. That's what the Warriors have done, it's what the Cavs have done, etc.
I don't have anything against system basketball. UNLESS system basketball is preventing you from targeting the best players. That's why I got frustrated with D'Antoni and why it is why it is frustrating with Phil.
You can't say that the problem is just the backcourt - it's not like Phil inherited these guards. He traded for Jose, he signed Afflalo as his first big free agent, he traded for Jerian Grant, he signed and developed Galloway (probably our best guard) from the D-League.
These are, ostensibly, the guards Phil WANTS running his system.And that is the big picture problem. This is what Phil thought would work. And he was very very wrong.
There is no doubt that Phil brought these players to this team but to suggest that they are his prime targets is also not accurate. Jose sucks, I don't know if he's just fallen off or what. Phil traded for him but that had as much to do with Chandler and gun toting fat boy, Shumpert and JR. Jose is a mentor type and it looks like his legs are shot. AA is a professional but not a starter any more, last option at $8M who wanted to be in NY.
It's weird to me to see GS as an example franchise that is doing something right all along. Since drafting Curry, it took them 4 seasons before getting to .500 and another 2 after that before they found a good "system" - players and coaches and match offense/defense before they really took off.
These things aren't done over night or even in 1 offseason. The Knicks guards suck ass, their front line does not. AA, Jose, and even Gallo are short term guys and not hand-picked long term people.
I agree patience is the move. Firing Fisher felt like a blow to that movement though. Fisher is clearly a better coach than Rambis. I guess his off court problems demanded it? It felt like an overreaction to a losing streak that was mainly brought on by timing of a Melo rolled ankle, Lance knee problem, Jose whatever old problem, and running into GSW, LAC and a few other strong teams.
I do worry about what kind of guards we intend to bring in though. Are we going to continue to try to force guards into this system?
The part I bolded I agree with completely - GSW had their core players first - Curry, Klay, Draymond, Barnes and THEN found a system second. They tailored that system to their players. Mark Jackson had some success with them, because they're a talented bunch - but the system he was forcing them into didn't make sense for their talent. They won like 54 games and got bounced in the playoffs. Enter Kerr - tailors the system to the talent, they take off.
I just think starting with the system is kind of backwards. Especially when it limits the kind of talent you can bring in.I also hate that it severely limits our coaching search.
Do you think the Triangle is the best system for Melo? I could honestly really see him thriving with a Thibs type grind it out coach.
IF Thibs and Conley are the best moves for the Knicks and it means letting go of some of the Triangle (remember Thibs RUNS the Triangle 25%+ of the time in Chicago) - will Phil be willing to cast his ego a side a bit and bring in the most talented players and coach he can bring in?
There is no "system" right now which would magically make the Knicks better especially given their talent - the Knicks' guard defense sucks and it has nothing to do with the Triangle, zero. There may be a coach who could win more games, that is understood. Pop without talent went 14-37 his first year. Brad Stevens went 25-57. Rick Carlisle goes 35-47, Doc Rivers year after year in Orlando gets fired and finally figured out how to coach in Boston?
You have to start somewhere and have some philosophy set in place.
Phil has already stated that he wants a system and that the Triangle is not the end-all.
Regarding Melo, this is the BEST he has ever been as a player, so I think the Triangle is doing him OK.
martin wrote:There is no "system" right now which would magically make the Knicks better especially given their talent - the Knicks' guard defense sucks and it has nothing to do with the Triangle, zero. There may be a coach who could win more games, that is understood. Pop without talent went 14-37 his first year. Brad Stevens went 25-57. Rick Carlisle goes 35-47, Doc Rivers year after year in Orlando gets fired and finally figured out how to coach in Boston?You have to start somewhere and have some philosophy set in place.
Phil has already stated that he wants a system and that the Triangle is not the end-all.
Regarding Melo, this is the BEST he has ever been as a player, so I think the Triangle is doing him OK.
Melo has consistently broken the system in the past few weeks.
I didn't say there is a magical system to fix the team - I said they should be looking to get players and a coach first and not worry about a system until they are built. The same way you said GSW did it.
That's what I'm saying.
I don't believe Phil when he says the Triangle is not the end-all. He says "it's not paramount, but it's important." I'll believe he's ready to ditch the Triangle when we hear of him interviewing a coach from outside the Triangle.
I think Phil came to NY to prove the Triangle worked over anything else. He's gonna die on that hill.
When a player hits a shot, he sprints down court to get back on D and get focus, when a player misses a shot, he jogs back down court, maybe gamble for a quick steal, and is easily frustrated, and thats natrual.
Good offense brings better defense, thats why is so important to have a smooth offense. The system frustrates these players all the time and you see it in their body language. They are not comfortable in it, they dont like it, and its going to take a lot of over paying to get FA to commit, and no coach out side of Phils circle will commit to running it..
martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:What if the Triangle prevents us from adding good guards? Maybe guards won't want to come play in a complicated system where they have to give up the ball and run complicated cuts to even have a chance at getting the ball back?If the Triangle is so advanced, why did DeRozan say the Raptors knew what to look for and how to get us out of our sets?
I agree the guards are a problem - but again - these are guards Phil handpicked because he thought they'd be good fits to run the Triangle. Jose was Phil's first trade target. Afflalo was the first guy he signed when he had cap room.
So these are the guards he wanted running this system. Maybe the problem is trying to get guys who you think look right for your system instead of trying to just get the best players and tweak your system for those players.
The NBA is a player's league. The star players are so good that systems should be tweaked to accomodate what the players do well. That's what the Warriors have done, it's what the Cavs have done, etc.
I don't have anything against system basketball. UNLESS system basketball is preventing you from targeting the best players. That's why I got frustrated with D'Antoni and why it is why it is frustrating with Phil.
You can't say that the problem is just the backcourt - it's not like Phil inherited these guards. He traded for Jose, he signed Afflalo as his first big free agent, he traded for Jerian Grant, he signed and developed Galloway (probably our best guard) from the D-League.
These are, ostensibly, the guards Phil WANTS running his system.And that is the big picture problem. This is what Phil thought would work. And he was very very wrong.
There is no doubt that Phil brought these players to this team but to suggest that they are his prime targets is also not accurate. Jose sucks, I don't know if he's just fallen off or what. Phil traded for him but that had as much to do with Chandler and gun toting fat boy, Shumpert and JR. Jose is a mentor type and it looks like his legs are shot. AA is a professional but not a starter any more, last option at $8M who wanted to be in NY.
It's weird to me to see GS as an example franchise that is doing something right all along. Since drafting Curry, it took them 4 seasons before getting to .500 and another 2 after that before they found a good "system" - players and coaches and match offense/defense before they really took off.
These things aren't done over night or even in 1 offseason. The Knicks guards suck ass, their front line does not. AA, Jose, and even Gallo are short term guys and not hand-picked long term people.
extremely well said. My sentiments exactly. Even with Jordan time and people were needed before Pippen/Grant and others in place. then when you start winning you are more attractive for tweak-FAs
patience and hard work suck but that has been the recipe for success
crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:What if the Triangle prevents us from adding good guards? Maybe guards won't want to come play in a complicated system where they have to give up the ball and run complicated cuts to even have a chance at getting the ball back?If the Triangle is so advanced, why did DeRozan say the Raptors knew what to look for and how to get us out of our sets?
I agree the guards are a problem - but again - these are guards Phil handpicked because he thought they'd be good fits to run the Triangle. Jose was Phil's first trade target. Afflalo was the first guy he signed when he had cap room.
So these are the guards he wanted running this system. Maybe the problem is trying to get guys who you think look right for your system instead of trying to just get the best players and tweak your system for those players.
The NBA is a player's league. The star players are so good that systems should be tweaked to accomodate what the players do well. That's what the Warriors have done, it's what the Cavs have done, etc.
I don't have anything against system basketball. UNLESS system basketball is preventing you from targeting the best players. That's why I got frustrated with D'Antoni and why it is why it is frustrating with Phil.
You can't say that the problem is just the backcourt - it's not like Phil inherited these guards. He traded for Jose, he signed Afflalo as his first big free agent, he traded for Jerian Grant, he signed and developed Galloway (probably our best guard) from the D-League.
These are, ostensibly, the guards Phil WANTS running his system.And that is the big picture problem. This is what Phil thought would work. And he was very very wrong.
There is no doubt that Phil brought these players to this team but to suggest that they are his prime targets is also not accurate. Jose sucks, I don't know if he's just fallen off or what. Phil traded for him but that had as much to do with Chandler and gun toting fat boy, Shumpert and JR. Jose is a mentor type and it looks like his legs are shot. AA is a professional but not a starter any more, last option at $8M who wanted to be in NY.
It's weird to me to see GS as an example franchise that is doing something right all along. Since drafting Curry, it took them 4 seasons before getting to .500 and another 2 after that before they found a good "system" - players and coaches and match offense/defense before they really took off.
These things aren't done over night or even in 1 offseason. The Knicks guards suck ass, their front line does not. AA, Jose, and even Gallo are short term guys and not hand-picked long term people.
I agree patience is the move. Firing Fisher felt like a blow to that movement though. Fisher is clearly a better coach than Rambis. I guess his off court problems demanded it? It felt like an overreaction to a losing streak that was mainly brought on by timing of a Melo rolled ankle, Lance knee problem, Jose whatever old problem, and running into GSW, LAC and a few other strong teams.
I do worry about what kind of guards we intend to bring in though. Are we going to continue to try to force guards into this system?
The part I bolded I agree with completely - GSW had their core players first - Curry, Klay, Draymond, Barnes and THEN found a system second. They tailored that system to their players. Mark Jackson had some success with them, because they're a talented bunch - but the system he was forcing them into didn't make sense for their talent. They won like 54 games and got bounced in the playoffs. Enter Kerr - tailors the system to the talent, they take off.
I just think starting with the system is kind of backwards. Especially when it limits the kind of talent you can bring in.
I also hate that it severely limits our coaching search.
Do you think the Triangle is the best system for Melo? I could honestly really see him thriving with a Thibs type grind it out coach.
IF Thibs and Conley are the best moves for the Knicks and it means letting go of some of the Triangle (remember Thibs RUNS the Triangle 25%+ of the time in Chicago) - will Phil be willing to cast his ego a side a bit and bring in the most talented players and coach he can bring in?
Maybe I'm gullible but I believe Phil when he says it doesn't need to be pure triangle. I am quite sure though that he wants a very team oriented approach with 5 guys moving and passing, and not parked in corner for drive and dish.
Also I don't know why you feel Triangle limits the options for players? Phil has stated multiple times he views coaching as transformative not transactional. By this I take it to mean the coach is responsible for finding and developing players into certain roles where they can grow.
Also from a pure economics-style of argument, it might make sense for the triangle. Now everyone is paying premiums for 3 and D guys, which would lead one to think slashers and mid range jump shooters might be undervalued by the market. While I'm not a fan of "buying" your team (as opposed to building/developing), if you are going to buy and if there is a salary cap you're better off buying value, no?
Chandler wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:What if the Triangle prevents us from adding good guards? Maybe guards won't want to come play in a complicated system where they have to give up the ball and run complicated cuts to even have a chance at getting the ball back?If the Triangle is so advanced, why did DeRozan say the Raptors knew what to look for and how to get us out of our sets?
I agree the guards are a problem - but again - these are guards Phil handpicked because he thought they'd be good fits to run the Triangle. Jose was Phil's first trade target. Afflalo was the first guy he signed when he had cap room.
So these are the guards he wanted running this system. Maybe the problem is trying to get guys who you think look right for your system instead of trying to just get the best players and tweak your system for those players.
The NBA is a player's league. The star players are so good that systems should be tweaked to accomodate what the players do well. That's what the Warriors have done, it's what the Cavs have done, etc.
I don't have anything against system basketball. UNLESS system basketball is preventing you from targeting the best players. That's why I got frustrated with D'Antoni and why it is why it is frustrating with Phil.
You can't say that the problem is just the backcourt - it's not like Phil inherited these guards. He traded for Jose, he signed Afflalo as his first big free agent, he traded for Jerian Grant, he signed and developed Galloway (probably our best guard) from the D-League.
These are, ostensibly, the guards Phil WANTS running his system.And that is the big picture problem. This is what Phil thought would work. And he was very very wrong.
There is no doubt that Phil brought these players to this team but to suggest that they are his prime targets is also not accurate. Jose sucks, I don't know if he's just fallen off or what. Phil traded for him but that had as much to do with Chandler and gun toting fat boy, Shumpert and JR. Jose is a mentor type and it looks like his legs are shot. AA is a professional but not a starter any more, last option at $8M who wanted to be in NY.
It's weird to me to see GS as an example franchise that is doing something right all along. Since drafting Curry, it took them 4 seasons before getting to .500 and another 2 after that before they found a good "system" - players and coaches and match offense/defense before they really took off.
These things aren't done over night or even in 1 offseason. The Knicks guards suck ass, their front line does not. AA, Jose, and even Gallo are short term guys and not hand-picked long term people.
I agree patience is the move. Firing Fisher felt like a blow to that movement though. Fisher is clearly a better coach than Rambis. I guess his off court problems demanded it? It felt like an overreaction to a losing streak that was mainly brought on by timing of a Melo rolled ankle, Lance knee problem, Jose whatever old problem, and running into GSW, LAC and a few other strong teams.
I do worry about what kind of guards we intend to bring in though. Are we going to continue to try to force guards into this system?
The part I bolded I agree with completely - GSW had their core players first - Curry, Klay, Draymond, Barnes and THEN found a system second. They tailored that system to their players. Mark Jackson had some success with them, because they're a talented bunch - but the system he was forcing them into didn't make sense for their talent. They won like 54 games and got bounced in the playoffs. Enter Kerr - tailors the system to the talent, they take off.
I just think starting with the system is kind of backwards. Especially when it limits the kind of talent you can bring in.
I also hate that it severely limits our coaching search.
Do you think the Triangle is the best system for Melo? I could honestly really see him thriving with a Thibs type grind it out coach.
IF Thibs and Conley are the best moves for the Knicks and it means letting go of some of the Triangle (remember Thibs RUNS the Triangle 25%+ of the time in Chicago) - will Phil be willing to cast his ego a side a bit and bring in the most talented players and coach he can bring in?
Maybe I'm gullible but I believe Phil when he says it doesn't need to be pure triangle. I am quite sure though that he wants a very team oriented approach with 5 guys moving and passing, and not parked in corner for drive and dish.
Also I don't know why you feel Triangle limits the options for players? Phil has stated multiple times he views coaching as transformative not transactional. By this I take it to mean the coach is responsible for finding and developing players into certain roles where they can grow.
Also from a pure economics-style of argument, it might make sense for the triangle. Now everyone is paying premiums for 3 and D guys, which would lead one to think slashers and mid range jump shooters might be undervalued by the market. While I'm not a fan of "buying" your team (as opposed to building/developing), if you are going to buy and if there is a salary cap you're better off buying value, no?
Hey, if he hires Walton, I'll be good. I'd prefer Thibs, but Walton is my 1B choice. Thibs is 1A.
Patience is key - from everyone, including little old me.
If we get Conley this summer... it's a new ball game. Or maybe we get Jennings and Batum? New ball game.
Knicks still the single most improved teams this season relative to last season.
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crzymdups wrote:Chandler wrote:crzymdups wrote:martin wrote:crzymdups wrote:What if the Triangle prevents us from adding good guards? Maybe guards won't want to come play in a complicated system where they have to give up the ball and run complicated cuts to even have a chance at getting the ball back?If the Triangle is so advanced, why did DeRozan say the Raptors knew what to look for and how to get us out of our sets?
I agree the guards are a problem - but again - these are guards Phil handpicked because he thought they'd be good fits to run the Triangle. Jose was Phil's first trade target. Afflalo was the first guy he signed when he had cap room.
So these are the guards he wanted running this system. Maybe the problem is trying to get guys who you think look right for your system instead of trying to just get the best players and tweak your system for those players.
The NBA is a player's league. The star players are so good that systems should be tweaked to accomodate what the players do well. That's what the Warriors have done, it's what the Cavs have done, etc.
I don't have anything against system basketball. UNLESS system basketball is preventing you from targeting the best players. That's why I got frustrated with D'Antoni and why it is why it is frustrating with Phil.
You can't say that the problem is just the backcourt - it's not like Phil inherited these guards. He traded for Jose, he signed Afflalo as his first big free agent, he traded for Jerian Grant, he signed and developed Galloway (probably our best guard) from the D-League.
These are, ostensibly, the guards Phil WANTS running his system.And that is the big picture problem. This is what Phil thought would work. And he was very very wrong.
There is no doubt that Phil brought these players to this team but to suggest that they are his prime targets is also not accurate. Jose sucks, I don't know if he's just fallen off or what. Phil traded for him but that had as much to do with Chandler and gun toting fat boy, Shumpert and JR. Jose is a mentor type and it looks like his legs are shot. AA is a professional but not a starter any more, last option at $8M who wanted to be in NY.
It's weird to me to see GS as an example franchise that is doing something right all along. Since drafting Curry, it took them 4 seasons before getting to .500 and another 2 after that before they found a good "system" - players and coaches and match offense/defense before they really took off.
These things aren't done over night or even in 1 offseason. The Knicks guards suck ass, their front line does not. AA, Jose, and even Gallo are short term guys and not hand-picked long term people.
I agree patience is the move. Firing Fisher felt like a blow to that movement though. Fisher is clearly a better coach than Rambis. I guess his off court problems demanded it? It felt like an overreaction to a losing streak that was mainly brought on by timing of a Melo rolled ankle, Lance knee problem, Jose whatever old problem, and running into GSW, LAC and a few other strong teams.
I do worry about what kind of guards we intend to bring in though. Are we going to continue to try to force guards into this system?
The part I bolded I agree with completely - GSW had their core players first - Curry, Klay, Draymond, Barnes and THEN found a system second. They tailored that system to their players. Mark Jackson had some success with them, because they're a talented bunch - but the system he was forcing them into didn't make sense for their talent. They won like 54 games and got bounced in the playoffs. Enter Kerr - tailors the system to the talent, they take off.
I just think starting with the system is kind of backwards. Especially when it limits the kind of talent you can bring in.
I also hate that it severely limits our coaching search.
Do you think the Triangle is the best system for Melo? I could honestly really see him thriving with a Thibs type grind it out coach.
IF Thibs and Conley are the best moves for the Knicks and it means letting go of some of the Triangle (remember Thibs RUNS the Triangle 25%+ of the time in Chicago) - will Phil be willing to cast his ego a side a bit and bring in the most talented players and coach he can bring in?
Maybe I'm gullible but I believe Phil when he says it doesn't need to be pure triangle. I am quite sure though that he wants a very team oriented approach with 5 guys moving and passing, and not parked in corner for drive and dish.
Also I don't know why you feel Triangle limits the options for players? Phil has stated multiple times he views coaching as transformative not transactional. By this I take it to mean the coach is responsible for finding and developing players into certain roles where they can grow.
Also from a pure economics-style of argument, it might make sense for the triangle. Now everyone is paying premiums for 3 and D guys, which would lead one to think slashers and mid range jump shooters might be undervalued by the market. While I'm not a fan of "buying" your team (as opposed to building/developing), if you are going to buy and if there is a salary cap you're better off buying value, no?
Hey, if he hires Walton, I'll be good. I'd prefer Thibs, but Walton is my 1B choice. Thibs is 1A.
Patience is key - from everyone, including little old me.
If we get Conley this summer... it's a new ball game. Or maybe we get Jennings and Batum? New ball game.
Knicks still the single most improved teams this season relative to last season.
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I agree with your coaching choices, but might reverse them. I would also rather get a really smart, facilitating two guard than overspend on Conley. Given his age and size, i think Conley's current contract is about right, and probably what Memphis will offer. A 4 year deal and we'll all be complaining on the last year or two, no matter what he's paid -- too slow and small at that point.
Unfortunately, I don't have a clear enough sense of which players I would truly want in this coming year (other than pipe dream KD) but i have to imagine the easy part is upgrading our current crop, even if they're not with the final pieces to the puzzle
knicks1248 wrote:When you dont make shots, you energy goes down, and you give a half of effort on defense. Every player in the world will tell you, my shot aint fall, my confidence drops, and so does my energy, especially when the other team scores off your miss shot.When a player hits a shot, he sprints down court to get back on D and get focus, when a player misses a shot, he jogs back down court, maybe gamble for a quick steal, and is easily frustrated, and thats natrual.
Good offense brings better defense, thats why is so important to have a smooth offense. The system frustrates these players all the time and you see it in their body language. They are not comfortable in it, they dont like it, and its going to take a lot of over paying to get FA to commit, and no coach out side of Phils circle will commit to running it..
i see it in the complete opposite way-- winning players never allow themselves to get into that mode. you miss a shot then you have to have a short memory and you dig in on defense. you say it's natural-- maybe that's why you need coaches and coaching.
blkexec wrote:fishmike wrote:blkexec wrote:Why do guys continually put that on Melo? Melo forced his way out of Denver. That is a fact. The Knicks overpaying has NOTHING to do with Melo.EnySpree wrote:The problem is most of you don't know what a nba offense is.... you guys just want to see stretch 4s and point guards hitting threes. Face it.When we had that system with Dantoni everyone cried about it. Now everyone is doing it, now you want to do it.
You guys deserve a bad team.
The problem is not the system. The problem is affalo is one of the worst shooting guards in the league. Calderón is the worst point guard in the league. Galloway is one of the worst guards in the league. The rest of the team are filled with redundant role players. If we had a top 30 point guard (yes our guards aren't even top 30)... and a top 30 shooting guard the Knicks would not be where they are. Basically place any backcourt from any team in place of ours and we will have at least 10 more wins...
You need to go a little deeper. Calderon didn't force his way to NY, like Melo did. Same with all the other players you mentioned. Phil Jackson and Dolan are the problems. Phil's lack of experience has us taking 1 step forward and 5 steps backward, since the day he arrived.
And I don't think everybody hated Dantoni's system, but nobody thought his system can win in the playoffs.
GS, Lakers, Bulls.....All these team is showing you that it's not about the system......It's the talent running the system.
And usually an offensive system is needed for roll players. It gives them a roll to play. Superstars will do what they want to do, regardless of the system. Melo for example, when it's time for him to score, he will do whatever he can, which is ISO ball. Steph Curry isn't running a system, he's just killing. But the roll players around are running a system. Curry and most star players use their instincts.
It's a race between Phil increasing his learning curve and if / when we will get quality players. I never trusted Phil as a GM.....And this is why. Can't fault Calderon.....It was Phil who traded for him. Now it's killing us! Same reason why we only won 17 games that next year. Phil stripped it down and filled up with his players. Well, so far his players aren't combining well.
They really need to change the FA and draft timing. I believe if Phil knew he was drafting KP, he wouldn't have filled the roster with Forwards.....but rather dynamic guard play. And Aflalo is not a dynamic guard.
If Melo really wanted to win a championship in NY, he would've waited until free agency, so that the Knicks didn't have to mortgage their future draft picks and assets. Melo wanted NY and his money.....And he got both. So Melo out of all people should understand why we are in the state we are in....Lebron had a plan to bring a championship to Miami. Melo wasn't thinking championship. Wade took a pay cut with a plan to win a championship. Melo was thinking about getting the most money from Dolan. Lebron is a complete player who has the green light to ask for any amount of money he chooses. Melo is not a complete player.
Yes, Melo holds some of the blame....But as I stated, Dolan is the common denominator out of all of this. And bringing Phil along just helps Dolan shoulder the blame.
Who exactly did we lose to Denver?? Easy to say all the stuff your saying without pointing to the players lost. What player did Denver pick with our pick? The only healthy player still with Denver as a result of the trade is Gallo. So what exactly are you claiming we lost? Had we kept everyone, including picks and not traded for Melo, would we not be basically in Denver's current position? How are they doing?
crzymdups wrote:knicks1248 wrote:So a real coach would think, man these guys can't execute the game plan, they are confused, lack creativity, speed, and don't have the IQ needed, no energy, don't cut hard, and are out of their comfort zone, I need to make changes to fit this roster.A bad coach would stay with the program and try is damn hardest to squeeze that triangle into a circle despite so many negatives. If rambis was to scrap the triangle for the most part and build on the players strength, and getting success, would phil looked to replace him..fck no, same with fisher.
The players have no energy, they don't seem interested, or engaged for good portions of the game
^This. You nailed it, IMHO.
So a real coach would make affalo more athletic? It would make him hit open jumpers? Will it make Calderón 28 years old again? Kurt Rambis coached what 5 games? So now we should openly bash him? At least until Thibbs is hired. The guy with the manly voice that rules you up when you see him yelling at his players in the huddle. Give me a break. Yeah you sure nailed it alright.
who is to blame? Afflalo, Galloway, Grant, Sasha and lastly Calderón. The whole backcourt is terrible. If you wanna play the trolling fan role and bash Phil then fine. You have to think we are going to solve the backcourt problems in the summer. By default whoever we get to replace calderon and affalo will be way better. Untilthen no use crying about the coach not adapting to the shit talent we have on the roster.
EnySpree wrote:Bottom line, Phil is not done. He's built a great foundation in the front court and now has to fix the backcourt. You guys want him to fix 15 years of futility in one summer....who is to blame? Afflalo, Galloway, Grant, Sasha and lastly Calderón. The whole backcourt is terrible. If you wanna play the trolling fan role and bash Phil then fine. You have to think we are going to solve the backcourt problems in the summer. By default whoever we get to replace calderon and affalo will be way better. Untilthen no use crying about the coach not adapting to the shit talent we have on the roster.
Exactly!!! It's so obvious what's going on and that Phil has made some progress with the roster, but clearly things still need to be addressed. This was never supposed to be the final product. This past summer was about establishing a foundation and continuing to build from there. There's no way Phil could fix every problem in one summer. We all hoped for more from this roster but it doesn't change the goal of building a winning roster. Getting a legit Backcourt is the new prime target.
It's frustrating but then it would also be frustrating if we were Philly. People act like they'd understand a total rebuild but in truth NY fans NEVER understand the process of building a team. No patience and no understanding. Thing is, this summer will be another opportunity to add talent and fill some holes in the roster.