Knicks · DRose Highlights This Season. Glimmer Of Hope? (page 2)
nixluva wrote:SwishAndDish13 wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Nix, I would love to see where Rose ranks on the WS/48 you like to post sometimes. Let's see where Rose rank. If MrEinman is still with us what does Rose's TS% look like?
We all know Rose has fallen off his great production pre injuries.The entire point of bringing in Rose is to see if he can get back to some semblance of the player he once was. He has had some pretty serious health issues and has been making the climb back. Perhaps he puts it all together next season. If he does you've got a solid PG but if he doesn't you can reload next summer. There's really no downside in terms of risk. They're gonna go for it the next 3 years and if Rose can put it back together along with an improved roster this will be a chance to make a run while you have Melo still in the mix.
So no list? I see the youtubes but can I get an objective breakdown with some advance stats?They are going to be running a completely different offense so his advance stats only will tell you so much. The trade is a calculated gamble with minimal downside. As a fanbase we always think any young play we have is headed to the half of fame and we should get a king'size ransom for him (i.e. Landry Fields and Shump). Perhaps the Front Officd actually projected his ceiling as a backup PG and made a decision to pull the trigger. We would be in a better position if we had been more honest about how great our own talent is in the past.
Grant is a nice prospect but infinitely replaceable. Every year there are young guards coming out of college with talent and promise. They will be able to replace Grant with another young prospect. In the end this trade does have tremendous upside that some refuse to recognize.
Rose had significant stretches of quality play this year and that does give some degree of hope that he can be a good player on a more talented starting lineup. The idea is to add more talent to KP, Melo and Rose, so that no one has to carry an undue load, including Rose. That should make things better for Rose being able to stay healthy.
Infinitely replaceable is right. As a matter of fact... he has already been replaced by a 6'6 guy with some pedigree and a good 3pt. shot (Holiday), in the long shot category. Not to mention we relieved ourselves of Calderon. I see it as Rolo (13.2M) and Calderon (7.8M) for Rose (21.3M). Not bad. We also free up another 14M for the 2017 strong free agent class.
Derrick Rose was worth -1.53 wins last year according to ESPN's RPM statistic, ranking him 85th out of 85 qualifying point guards
Second, Rose is looking for a max deal. If Rose has a halfway decent season, you really want to take on Rose, given his injuries could end up being a Curry like albatross of a contract? We have to wait a year to find out if this will be the case. Look what he gave up for Rose on a one year rental, what do you think he's going to do if Rose has one ok season? Some posters are quite confident that Phil wont give Rose the max if he isnt anything but stellar. Im not so convinced.
Rose has made it very clear that his post NBA career comes first. If he is so concerned about his life after he retires, I wish he would go ahead and retire now. Better than risk what could easily turn out to be one of the worst contract in Knicks, if not NBA history. Why take on that much risk? Why even consider it?
SwishAndDish13 wrote:When is Grant's HOF induction? In. couple wks or did I miss I? I assume he will go in next to Fields.
Balkman is next to Fields. Then Jeremy Lin. The Jorts. Then Grant.
EwingsGlass wrote:SwishAndDish13 wrote:When is Grant's HOF induction? In. couple wks or did I miss I? I assume he will go in next to Fields.Balkman is next to Fields. Then Jeremy Lin. The Jorts. Then Grant.
guess who is the next prop him up HOFer? Justin freakin Holiday!
you heard it hear first ...
GustavBahler wrote:First, this doesn't inspire much confidence, from Posting and Toasting....Because if Rose has a decent year and the Knicks are in the playoffs they go into the next season with enough money to sign 2 max guys.Derrick Rose was worth -1.53 wins last year according to ESPN's RPM statistic, ranking him 85th out of 85 qualifying point guardsSecond, Rose is looking for a max deal. If Rose has a halfway decent season, you really want to take on Rose, given his injuries could end up being a Curry like albatross of a contract? We have to wait a year to find out if this will be the case. Look what he gave up for Rose on a one year rental, what do you think he's going to do if Rose has one ok season? Some posters are quite confident that Phil wont give Rose the max if he isnt anything but stellar. Im not so convinced.
Rose has made it very clear that his post NBA career comes first. If he is so concerned about his life after he retires, I wish he would go ahead and retire now. Better than risk what could easily turn out to be one of the worst contract in Knicks, if not NBA history. Why take on that much risk? Why even consider it?
Curry
Westbrook
Blake
CP3
Haywood
Lawry
Gallo
Milsap
Ibaka
JRue Holiday
Monroe
Reddick
Livingston
... thats not even the restricted guys.
If the Knicks are a playoff team why do they have to resign Rose? They will have options
fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:First, this doesn't inspire much confidence, from Posting and Toasting....Because if Rose has a decent year and the Knicks are in the playoffs they go into the next season with enough money to sign 2 max guys.Derrick Rose was worth -1.53 wins last year according to ESPN's RPM statistic, ranking him 85th out of 85 qualifying point guardsSecond, Rose is looking for a max deal. If Rose has a halfway decent season, you really want to take on Rose, given his injuries could end up being a Curry like albatross of a contract? We have to wait a year to find out if this will be the case. Look what he gave up for Rose on a one year rental, what do you think he's going to do if Rose has one ok season? Some posters are quite confident that Phil wont give Rose the max if he isnt anything but stellar. Im not so convinced.
Rose has made it very clear that his post NBA career comes first. If he is so concerned about his life after he retires, I wish he would go ahead and retire now. Better than risk what could easily turn out to be one of the worst contract in Knicks, if not NBA history. Why take on that much risk? Why even consider it?
Curry
Westbrook
Blake
CP3
Haywood
Lawry
Gallo
Milsap
Ibaka
JRue Holiday
Monroe
Reddick
Livingston
... thats not even the restricted guys.If the Knicks are a playoff team why do they have to resign Rose? They will have options
rose has had 3 brutal BRUTAL years in a row ... why do you think that he will/can make us better? STARPHUCK!
nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Nix, I would love to see where Rose ranks on the WS/48 you like to post sometimes. Let's see where Rose rank. If MrEinman is still with us what does Rose's TS% look like?
We all know Rose has fallen off his great production pre injuries.The entire point of bringing in Rose is to see if he can get back to some semblance of the player he once was. He has had some pretty serious health issues and has been making the climb back. Perhaps he puts it all together next season. If he does you've got a solid PG but if he doesn't you can reload next summer. There's really no downside in terms of risk. They're gonna go for it the next 3 years and if Rose can put it back together along with an improved roster this will be a chance to make a run while you have Melo still in the mix.
So no list? I see the youtubes but can I get an objective breakdown with some advance stats?Why do you want to look at the advanced stats when you know damn well they will not look good? We all just spoke about this being a prove it season for Derrick. He has to show improvement in his efficiency and Hornacek believes he can help him to get there. This is Hornacek's move if we're being honest. Phil is giving his coach what he wants and this deal doesn't happen if Horny doesn't want it. The same as Grant and Wroten being gone doesn't happen if Horny says he wants them. Phil is supporting his coach and his plan for the team.
Phil and JH are betting on their ability to help Rose and also give him the roster support he needs so that he isn't burnt out by the end of the season. They have a lot more work to do. That's gonna start tomorrow night.
Why do you want to show us a few highlights of his disgusting season? You don't know who move this is so don't act like you know more. Just a few days ago people were saying that these Rose rumors were bogus and no one knows what Phil does. He doesn't let things slip to the media.I posted his month to month production to show how he played at his worst and best this year. It was a clearer example of what he can actually do. The season stats are sometimes deceptive since an injury or a player trying to come back from injury will sometimes struggle but when they get their legs and feel back you see a much better player.
Rose had some pretty good months and it's clear that there is some reason for optimism that he can get his game back to a more respectable level. You can stick by your take on him but there is a chance that Rose can play as he did at his best this season for more of next season than he did this year.
TS% USG% ORtg DRtg
January .526 27.6 102 112
February .508 33.0 103 113
March .511 27.6 98 113
April - .409 25.0 87 120
To say he improved as the season went on as if people should find some glimmer of hope is disingenuous. His TS% was still below avg and his off/def rtg were abysmal regardless the month. He still was a negative for his team and has been the last three years. If this was a trade for Derick Smith you would stil be pumping up the trade but others would probably look at it different.
mreinman wrote:EwingsGlass wrote:SwishAndDish13 wrote:When is Grant's HOF induction? In. couple wks or did I miss I? I assume he will go in next to Fields.Balkman is next to Fields. Then Jeremy Lin. The Jorts. Then Grant.
guess who is the next prop him up HOFer? Justin freakin Holiday!
you heard it hear first ...
Hahahahaha! I actually liked him as a throw in and think he can have a role as a scorer off the bench. That would put him in the above HOF.
I am not a Lin fan but by sticking the league for more than a cup of coffee is isn't eligible for the HOF.
fishmike wrote:GustavBahler wrote:First, this doesn't inspire much confidence, from Posting and Toasting....Because if Rose has a decent year and the Knicks are in the playoffs they go into the next season with enough money to sign 2 max guys.Derrick Rose was worth -1.53 wins last year according to ESPN's RPM statistic, ranking him 85th out of 85 qualifying point guardsSecond, Rose is looking for a max deal. If Rose has a halfway decent season, you really want to take on Rose, given his injuries could end up being a Curry like albatross of a contract? We have to wait a year to find out if this will be the case. Look what he gave up for Rose on a one year rental, what do you think he's going to do if Rose has one ok season? Some posters are quite confident that Phil wont give Rose the max if he isnt anything but stellar. Im not so convinced.
Rose has made it very clear that his post NBA career comes first. If he is so concerned about his life after he retires, I wish he would go ahead and retire now. Better than risk what could easily turn out to be one of the worst contract in Knicks, if not NBA history. Why take on that much risk? Why even consider it?
Curry
Westbrook
Blake
CP3
Haywood
Lawry
Gallo
Milsap
Ibaka
JRue Holiday
Monroe
Reddick
Livingston
... thats not even the restricted guys.If the Knicks are a playoff team why do they have to resign Rose? They will have options
Not so convinced the Knicks are a playoff team now. Why break up the best frontcourt in a decade over a one year rental who has been among the worst at his position over the last few years? Why? You do it if you're serious about possibly bringing in Rose long term.
We had the frontcourt set, one of the best, and cap room, this wasn't necessary. If Rose was still all that Melo would be a Bull right now.
yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:nixluva wrote:yellowboy90 wrote:Nix, I would love to see where Rose ranks on the WS/48 you like to post sometimes. Let's see where Rose rank. If MrEinman is still with us what does Rose's TS% look like?
We all know Rose has fallen off his great production pre injuries.The entire point of bringing in Rose is to see if he can get back to some semblance of the player he once was. He has had some pretty serious health issues and has been making the climb back. Perhaps he puts it all together next season. If he does you've got a solid PG but if he doesn't you can reload next summer. There's really no downside in terms of risk. They're gonna go for it the next 3 years and if Rose can put it back together along with an improved roster this will be a chance to make a run while you have Melo still in the mix.
So no list? I see the youtubes but can I get an objective breakdown with some advance stats?Why do you want to look at the advanced stats when you know damn well they will not look good? We all just spoke about this being a prove it season for Derrick. He has to show improvement in his efficiency and Hornacek believes he can help him to get there. This is Hornacek's move if we're being honest. Phil is giving his coach what he wants and this deal doesn't happen if Horny doesn't want it. The same as Grant and Wroten being gone doesn't happen if Horny says he wants them. Phil is supporting his coach and his plan for the team.
Phil and JH are betting on their ability to help Rose and also give him the roster support he needs so that he isn't burnt out by the end of the season. They have a lot more work to do. That's gonna start tomorrow night.
Why do you want to show us a few highlights of his disgusting season? You don't know who move this is so don't act like you know more. Just a few days ago people were saying that these Rose rumors were bogus and no one knows what Phil does. He doesn't let things slip to the media.I posted his month to month production to show how he played at his worst and best this year. It was a clearer example of what he can actually do. The season stats are sometimes deceptive since an injury or a player trying to come back from injury will sometimes struggle but when they get their legs and feel back you see a much better player.
Rose had some pretty good months and it's clear that there is some reason for optimism that he can get his game back to a more respectable level. You can stick by your take on him but there is a chance that Rose can play as he did at his best this season for more of next season than he did this year.
TS% USG% ORtg DRtg
January .526 27.6 102 112
February .508 33.0 103 113
March .511 27.6 98 113
April - .409 25.0 87 120To say he improved as the season went on as if people should find some glimmer of hope is disingenuous. His TS% was still below avg and his off/def rtg were abysmal regardless the month. He still was a negative for his team and has been the last three years. If this was a trade for Derick Smith you would stil be pumping up the trade but others would probably look at it different.
I agree with you that he wasn't playing at a great level. Clearly if Rose had played to a 57 TS% and great Defense then most likely they don't trade him to us for RoLo. You and others love to try and make it sound like I would be loving any move when that's not the case. Did I say Rose was a LOCK to return to All Star status? NO! I post about there being a "Glimmer of Hope" and you guys make it sound like I'm guaranteeing Rose leads us to a championship. Just more BS that I never suggested.
Once again if anyone is the least bit positive there are some who will twist the words to make it sound unreasonable and over the top when only mild comments have been made. Once again, I titled this thread with "Glimmer of Hope?" as the point of the discussion. GLIMMER!!! Not f'n guarantees of dominance. JESUS!
It's going to be up to Hornacek to help Rose get back to a more efficient level of play. He had to believe he could do it or why make the deal? If it all flops then they have an out and can go after another Free Agent. Sounds pretty clear cut to me.
A Look Back At Derrick Rose, The Chicago Bulls’ All-Time Greatest Patient
http://www.theonion.com/articleslideshow...
mreinman wrote:is he even a better defender than calderon?
My 8 year old cousin is a better defender then Jose ... Yes former Mvp is a better defender
One year rental? Which of you orthopedic specialists have a good handle on his injuries?
IF.......
He has a good year, is it because Horny is better than Hoiberg as a coach? Triangle Zen? Having Melo on the wing? A Latvian god?
Will he look for money or look to continue a good thing in NY if he succeeds in NY?
Lopez is a very good journeyman Center. Not happy he is gone, but this trade has huge upside, and rose really need not be crazy good for it to be a huge success. Its a bold move. There are risks.
Nalod wrote:IF.......
One year rental? Which of you orthopedic specialists have a good handle on his injuries?
IF.......
He has a good year, is it because Horny is better than Hoiberg as a coach? Triangle Zen? Having Melo on the wing? A Latvian god?
Will he look for money or look to continue a good thing in NY if he succeeds in NY?Lopez is a very good journeyman Center. Not happy he is gone, but this trade has huge upside, and rose really need not be crazy good for it to be a huge success. Its a bold move. There are risks.
But he does have to be better than he's been in any year since 2011. That's going back half a decade.
Bonn1997 wrote:Nalod wrote:IF.......
One year rental? Which of you orthopedic specialists have a good handle on his injuries?
IF.......
He has a good year, is it because Horny is better than Hoiberg as a coach? Triangle Zen? Having Melo on the wing? A Latvian god?
Will he look for money or look to continue a good thing in NY if he succeeds in NY?Lopez is a very good journeyman Center. Not happy he is gone, but this trade has huge upside, and rose really need not be crazy good for it to be a huge success. Its a bold move. There are risks.
But he does have to be better than he's been in any year since 2011. That's going back half a decade.
If it works, we probably make the playoffs and maybe make a run in the weak east.
If it doesn't work, we probably miss the playoffs and get a lotto pick in 2017.
It's not a terrible gamble. If we had gambled our 2017 pick or 2018 pick, I'd be livid.
I think one thing we saw last year was that teams figured out how to play against Rolo and KP and they went small against them. I don't think that was a front court pairing we could use going forward. We got rid of the dead weight of Calderon this year and the questionable fit of Rolo for a PG who may be a very good fit with Melo and KP - it's all about fit.
I get why people are upset, but it's a pretty straight forward gamble. Impossible to judge the overall off-season until we see the next moves.
The one big question mark I have about all this is waiving Tony Wroten. That is sort of mystifying to me - and we didn't need to do it to facilitate the trade since we sent out more players than we got back and had cap room. Just odd to me.
crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Nalod wrote:IF.......
One year rental? Which of you orthopedic specialists have a good handle on his injuries?
IF.......
He has a good year, is it because Horny is better than Hoiberg as a coach? Triangle Zen? Having Melo on the wing? A Latvian god?
Will he look for money or look to continue a good thing in NY if he succeeds in NY?Lopez is a very good journeyman Center. Not happy he is gone, but this trade has huge upside, and rose really need not be crazy good for it to be a huge success. Its a bold move. There are risks.
But he does have to be better than he's been in any year since 2011. That's going back half a decade.If it works, we probably make the playoffs and maybe make a run in the weak east.
If it doesn't work, we probably miss the playoffs and get a lotto pick in 2017.
It's not a terrible gamble. If we had gambled our 2017 pick or 2018 pick, I'd be livid.
I think one thing we saw last year was that teams figured out how to play against Rolo and KP and they went small against them. I don't think that was a front court pairing we could use going forward. We got rid of the dead weight of Calderon this year and the questionable fit of Rolo for a PG who may be a very good fit with Melo and KP - it's all about fit.
I get why people are upset, but it's a pretty straight forward gamble. Impossible to judge the overall off-season until we see the next moves.
The one big question mark I have about all this is waiving Tony Wroten. That is sort of mystifying to me - and we didn't need to do it to facilitate the trade since we sent out more players than we got back and had cap room. Just odd to me.
The Wroten thing to me suggests that the Knicks have intentions to add some guards from this draft class. Otherwise why give up on Tony so early. Hornacek seems to have a very high criteria for his young guards. My guess is shooting is the main sticking point with guys like Wroten and Grant.
nixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Nalod wrote:IF.......
One year rental? Which of you orthopedic specialists have a good handle on his injuries?
IF.......
He has a good year, is it because Horny is better than Hoiberg as a coach? Triangle Zen? Having Melo on the wing? A Latvian god?
Will he look for money or look to continue a good thing in NY if he succeeds in NY?Lopez is a very good journeyman Center. Not happy he is gone, but this trade has huge upside, and rose really need not be crazy good for it to be a huge success. Its a bold move. There are risks.
But he does have to be better than he's been in any year since 2011. That's going back half a decade.If it works, we probably make the playoffs and maybe make a run in the weak east.
If it doesn't work, we probably miss the playoffs and get a lotto pick in 2017.
It's not a terrible gamble. If we had gambled our 2017 pick or 2018 pick, I'd be livid.
I think one thing we saw last year was that teams figured out how to play against Rolo and KP and they went small against them. I don't think that was a front court pairing we could use going forward. We got rid of the dead weight of Calderon this year and the questionable fit of Rolo for a PG who may be a very good fit with Melo and KP - it's all about fit.
I get why people are upset, but it's a pretty straight forward gamble. Impossible to judge the overall off-season until we see the next moves.
The one big question mark I have about all this is waiving Tony Wroten. That is sort of mystifying to me - and we didn't need to do it to facilitate the trade since we sent out more players than we got back and had cap room. Just odd to me.The Wroten thing to me suggests that the Knicks have intentions to add some guards from this draft class. Otherwise why give up on Tony so early. Hornacek seems to have a very high criteria for his young guards. My guess is shooting is the main sticking point with guys like Wroten and Grant.
I supposed. Hornacek never once mentioned Wroten in any interview. I'm still bummed, but maybe he was done.
This Bulls report on the Rose trade gives me some optimism. They're all convinced that Rose will be an all-star next season and thought the Bulls didn't get enough back.
crzymdups wrote:it was really interesting to read the Bull's board also. 80% think we fleeced them. 20% think it was time to just move on and take what you can getnixluva wrote:crzymdups wrote:Bonn1997 wrote:Nalod wrote:IF.......
One year rental? Which of you orthopedic specialists have a good handle on his injuries?
IF.......
He has a good year, is it because Horny is better than Hoiberg as a coach? Triangle Zen? Having Melo on the wing? A Latvian god?
Will he look for money or look to continue a good thing in NY if he succeeds in NY?Lopez is a very good journeyman Center. Not happy he is gone, but this trade has huge upside, and rose really need not be crazy good for it to be a huge success. Its a bold move. There are risks.
But he does have to be better than he's been in any year since 2011. That's going back half a decade.If it works, we probably make the playoffs and maybe make a run in the weak east.
If it doesn't work, we probably miss the playoffs and get a lotto pick in 2017.
It's not a terrible gamble. If we had gambled our 2017 pick or 2018 pick, I'd be livid.
I think one thing we saw last year was that teams figured out how to play against Rolo and KP and they went small against them. I don't think that was a front court pairing we could use going forward. We got rid of the dead weight of Calderon this year and the questionable fit of Rolo for a PG who may be a very good fit with Melo and KP - it's all about fit.
I get why people are upset, but it's a pretty straight forward gamble. Impossible to judge the overall off-season until we see the next moves.
The one big question mark I have about all this is waiving Tony Wroten. That is sort of mystifying to me - and we didn't need to do it to facilitate the trade since we sent out more players than we got back and had cap room. Just odd to me.The Wroten thing to me suggests that the Knicks have intentions to add some guards from this draft class. Otherwise why give up on Tony so early. Hornacek seems to have a very high criteria for his young guards. My guess is shooting is the main sticking point with guys like Wroten and Grant.
I supposed. Hornacek never once mentioned Wroten in any interview. I'm still bummed, but maybe he was done.
This Bulls report on the Rose trade gives me some optimism. They're all convinced that Rose will be an all-star next season and thought the Bulls didn't get enough back.